Pros Cons and Misunderstandings

[beachproperty]

I should probably also mention that my wife absolutely loves shopping in the States. She says better quality and better prices on clothes!

She likes to shop at Ross, Target, and all the sales at the malls. If it cost more than $10 she says "too expensive" but will still buy stuff up to $20 because I tell her it's OK and still would cost more in Thailand for inferior quality.

[wilcopops]

this comparison is just utterly facile........... it isn't even comparing like with like and shows a huge gap in understanding how and why societies work.

US is also a particularly bad example to choose in any circumstances as it is a far too variable society in the first place.

[wilcopops]

Let's leave "America" for a moment, if I may, and do a couple of minor comparisons.

Cost of housing in the USA and Australia seems much the same, as do taxes, extremely high costs for mobile phone contracts and internet. The thing that got me on a visit to the USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia. I can afford to live here in Chiang Mai on my pension, I can afford 24/7 internet, and eating out, registering and insuring the car. I could NOT do that in Australia.

Re: the comment on sidewalks/footpaths. In Chiang Mai they spend nothing on them, few walk on them, and everyone uses them to park their scooters (called motor bikes/sais here).

Seems the USA and Australia have the same attitude to dog poop and litter. You or your pooch drop it - you pick it up. I've actually seen that done here by a non-farang. Compare that to China where everything is dropped and left; under the table, out on the street.

No thanks! I'll stay with Chiang Mai!!

"USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia" - FHS!!! - get your facts right! - Australia has GST at 10% and the Abbott gov want to increase it..

I think Masuk was referring to the adding of taxes onto the price of an item when you pay for it. EG an item is priced at ten dollars but when you go to the till to pay there is a tax (VAT, GST or State Tax) of 10%. You therefore must pay eleven dollars for the item. I got caught out by this several times in South Africa. In Australia the 10% VAT is included in the listed price, just as it is in Thailand.

Look! Oz and European countries ALL charge GST or VAT - call iti what you like - where it is included - POS or P{OD is irrelevant - its a pointless thread with some very pointless replies.

[wilcopops]

Let's leave "America" for a moment, if I may, and do a couple of minor comparisons.

Cost of housing in the USA and Australia seems much the same, as do taxes, extremely high costs for mobile phone contracts and internet. The thing that got me on a visit to the USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia. I can afford to live here in Chiang Mai on my pension, I can afford 24/7 internet, and eating out, registering and insuring the car. I could NOT do that in Australia.

Re: the comment on sidewalks/footpaths. In Chiang Mai they spend nothing on them, few walk on them, and everyone uses them to park their scooters (called motor bikes/sais here).

Seems the USA and Australia have the same attitude to dog poop and litter. You or your pooch drop it - you pick it up. I've actually seen that done here by a non-farang. Compare that to China where everything is dropped and left; under the table, out on the street.

No thanks! I'll stay with Chiang Mai!!

"USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia" - FHS!!! - get your facts right! - Australia has GST at 10% and the Abbott gov want to increase it..

I think Masuk was referring to the adding of taxes onto the price of an item when you pay for it. EG an item is priced at ten dollars but when you go to the till to pay there is a tax (VAT, GST or State Tax) of 10%. You therefore must pay eleven dollars for the item. I got caught out by this several times in South Africa. In Australia the 10% VAT is included in the listed price, just as it is in Thailand.

Look! Oz and European countries ALL charge GST or VAT - call iti what you like - where it is included - POS or P{OD is irrelevant - its a pointless thread with some very pointless replies.

[David48]

this comparison is just utterly facile........... it isn't even comparing like with like and shows a huge gap in understanding how and why societies work.

US is also a particularly bad example to choose in any circumstances as it is a far too variable society in the first place.

Look! - its a pointless thread with some very pointless replies.

Man ... are you just having a bad day ... or decade?

Mate, do you have a Thai Partner?

Lived in the West ... what was her/his observations of that time?

That's what we are on about here.

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by David48

[Gumballl]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Check out the immigration statistics. One could argue that because the US draws the most immigrants than any other country in the world, that is must be the "best" for some reason or the other.

[simple1]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Check out the immigration statistics. One could argue that because the US draws the most immigrants than any other country in the world, that is must be the "best" for some reason or the other.

There are many ways to slice stats, in your example USA, by percentage of population, USA does not have the highest number of legal immigrants. Quality of life is normally used as an indicator for the 'best country'. Australia is often at the top of the list, or in the top five, varies year to year, in the example below, based upon data from OECD in 2013, USA ranked 6th

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/top-countries-on-oecd-better-life-index-2013-5?op=1#1-australia-15

[Thai at Heart]

If you can't afford to put your kids in the very best schools in thailand, your only real option is to go home.

My neighbours home schooled their kids, but that is a massive commitment. I have many things I love about Thailand, but once kids and education come into the mix, it becomes no contest.

The only thing that was better or cheaper for my kids to do in Thailand was music lessons. But, I notice now that instead of learning to play only the instrument , my daughter is now being taught how to read and write music correctly.

[nithisa78]

silicon valley, not much of a cross section.

[manarak]

Pros, Cons and Misunderstandings ... observations of living/visiting a Western Nation through the eyes of a Thai

Sometimes, you come across an excellent post.

Maybe not a post that you might write, but you can still see merit in it.

This post, reproduced (in part) below was unfortunately was buried on page 5 of a popular thread and didn't receive the exposure that it might have if it had been viewed as a stand alone topic.

At the time, I contacted the member and asked if I could reproduce it and frame an OP around it ... he said, no problems ... thanks JAFO ...

<snip>

I am in the states right now (California to be specific) in the heart of Silicon Valley. When my wife first landed it was brutal sticker shock on most everything. Now after being here for awhile she has done some very careful assessments and of course reports it back to her sister.

Below are some of her thoughts as she spouted them off at me while I typed this

Biggest Cons:

Housing costs/ Rents, Can never really own your house due to property taxes.

Taxes taken from paycheck, property tax, sales tax, medical insurance fees, car insurance fees, fees to own vehicles, virtually no public transportation,

Environmental charges when buying anything electronic or plastic, processed foods and packaged meats, Cell bill ($158 a month for 2 teles and locked into a 2 year contract with huge fees if you exit early), too many stop lights,

No daily markets to go get fresh food in the morning, rude people and bad drivers,

Going out to dinner costs way too much for what you get (She laughs at Thai restaurants and what they charge and most is not even authentic Thai food), not enough holidays, airfare is too expensive, ocean water is too cold.

Crab and lobster way to expensive.

Biggest Pros:

Mild temperatures, nice roads, good fruit variety, easy to find a job even if over 40, can return anything after you buy it if you do not like it,

Lots to go see and do(But at a steep price), wine selection, low cost high quality clothing and linens, Victoria Secret (555), online ordering, car selection

Things she doesn't understand:

Why they spend millions of tax payers dollars on sidewalks here and nobody walks anywhere, or on big parks that very few use, or huge parking lots that are empty or why they build new buildings for businesses when hundreds sit empty.

Why people are so wasteful and inconsiderate,

She has a hard time with the mix of immigrants, She struggles with loud rude Viets and Chinese and pushy Indians. She does not understand all the Mexicans that clean peoples yards and use leaf blowers to just blow it all out in the street only to have it blow into other peoples yards.

She thinks its hilarious to watch people walk their dogs and have to pick up their poop or get a fine.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In the end I am glad we were able to come this way for awhile while I work. I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet. The company paid for her to move with me here and it is for a manageable period of time.

We both agree (after numerous heart to heart talks) we like our life way better back in Thailand. We could stay here no problem but we feel our quality of life will suffer and that I would have to work until I die to sustain the COL. Plus we would have to cram life into weekends and feel exhausted because we had to rush everywhere we go.

Its funny, we have taken some weekend trips and after they were done we had some great pictures but did not enjoy the trip as much as we could have because I had to return to work.

The cost to get away is extremely high. Most people get 2 weeks a year to go relax and see things. That's not much time. Sadly when you finally can retire you are too old to go off and do things as most have medical issues now of some sort.

Anyway I took the time to post this to be clear, I do not hate the US. There are many things I love about it, In fact its a GREAT place to visit quite honestly. I just find I get a bigger bang for my dollar in Thailand, live with way less stress and live life on my terms.

Here in the states someone always has their hand in my pocket. FWIIW, My burn rate here renting a little house, 2 cars, all other expenses costs me roughly 150,000 baht a month not counting any entertainment.

Add in entertainment and any shopping and that number quickly goes over 200,000 baht. That does not include what I have to give out of my check to the Fed and State.

In Thailand my wife and I live very very well on 25,000 to 35,000 as we have no debt because our home and vehicles are paid for.

What I really liked was the open and honest approach to 'Live in the West vs Live in Thailand' as expressed through both Western and Thai eyes.

Currently, I'm facing the same question and for us, the school education for out kids in the future sway us to most likely living in the West.

How have you and your Thai Partner discussed this question and what was the outcome?

Why did you both decide to live in the country that you did?

Did you change this country after 2, 5 or maybe 10 years later? Why?

Lots to discuss, feel free to post observations from your Thai Partner about living in the West or the reason why she (he) prefers Thailand.

.

I agree David, this is a good post and the observations are astute.

I have visited California and other parts of the US before, and my thoughts reading this were wondering what she would say if she stayed in Europe.

My impression is that the USA are still upholding a lot more individual liberties than European countries which during the past decades have become very oppressive.

[Time Traveller]

If I could warmly ask the members here?

Don't rip the shit out of JAFO for his post.

Take it out on me ... not him. He had the generous heart to allow me to pen this in the first place.

His is truly a great post. It's honest, no BS ... just recalling the events as it happened.

Just read it for what it is, compare it to how you and your Thai Partner has experienced the Living/Experiencing the West

Well it kind of is a stupid post......In one of the largest countries in the world, let's find the most expensive, crowded, highly taxed city and then write about it like it's representive of all of the U.S...

If they didn't like it, fine.

I do like America and hope to live there again, but there's no way in the world I'd want to live in Silicon Valley.

[Shaunduhpostman]

Born, raised and lived in both Los Angeles and Bay areas. Agreed, if you want to live a kind of typical "middle class" lifestyle you have to be semi-wealthy.

I don't agree that people are necessarily more rude, but compared with Thailand, it as is in most western countries, people appreciate a generally more straight forward, frank, and even blunt attitude. Being inidirect, saying nice things when you don't mean it doesn't make sense. Personally, I feel it's better to grow a thincker skin, appreciate that others have other opinions, needs, etc. works out better for all, even if initially it looks uglier. That said, California is notorious for creating a very self-involved bunch. The transiency, people coming and going to live and work for a while, the Hotel California syndrome I guess, doesn't leave people much else but themselves. People lose their social skills, I think.

Interesting points about tons of money poured into sidewalks and parks no one uses. Very true. Never thought of it that way. People are probably afraid of getting mugged or too much in hurry and just drive everywhere. Also, why go to the park when you can go to an amazing forest or beach, just 20-30 minutes away from Silicon Valley. Truly stunning coastline and redwood forests galore, the Sierra's are only 2-3 hours drive as well and whole other amazing nature experiences to be had in the desert areas which are not hot in the spring and autumn.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Shaunduhpostman

[thailiketoo]

This thread has degenerated into a brawl. I suggest the mods close it.

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Report the posts that you think are in violation of TV policy. Failure to do that and the posters who start the constant anti (****) posts win every time.

[Time Traveller]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Check out the immigration statistics. One could argue that because the US draws the most immigrants than any other country in the world, that is must be the "best" for some reason or the other.

There are many ways to slice stats, in your example USA, by percentage of population, USA does not have the highest number of legal immigrants.

The US takes almost 1 million new immigrants each year....That's people that want to move and live permanently in the US. Name one country that has more legal immigrants each year than that?

You can quote all the "best places" surveys that you want. The fact is when it comes down to people willing to move one's life and the costs associated with it, the US comes out on top every time.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Time Traveller

[drand11]

Great analysis. For sure, the hustle bustle of the usa is a challenge for Thais. But Vietamese & chinese do well with the endless race in the usa. Why settle for hustle bustle of the usa if Thais have the right mix in life? I am 50/50, now living in thailand & trying to find a business to keep me mentally challenged & help w expenses.

[thailiketoo]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Check out the immigration statistics. One could argue that because the US draws the most immigrants than any other country in the world, that is must be the "best" for some reason or the other.

There are many ways to slice stats, in your example USA, by percentage of population, USA does not have the highest number of legal immigrants. Quality of life is normally used as an indicator for the 'best country'. Australia is often at the top of the list, or in the top five, varies year to year, in the example below, based upon data from OECD in 2013, USA ranked 6th

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/top-countries-on-oecd-better-life-index-2013-5?op=1#1-australia-15

I don't agree. The question is not how many Greeks migrate or how many Russians migrate or how many Indonesians migrate. I think the question had to do with Thai people. Easy answer. What country has the most Thais outside of Thailand. I think I'm posting on Thai Visa right? So to answer your question accurately America vs Australia, what is the Thai population of Australia about 30,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Australian

How many Thais in America? 120,000 live in one State, California. 80,000 in one city, LA. And about 240,000 in America.

[eldragon]

I miss the sound infrastructure and public works of the west. Parks and clean streets mostly. But I love the excitement and easygoing lifestyle here. And the heat. Food too.

[thailiketoo]

I miss the sound infrastructure and public works of the west. Parks and clean streets mostly. But I love the excitement and easygoing lifestyle here. And the heat. Food too.

Mate, do you have a Thai Partner?

Lived in the West ... what was her/his observations of that time?

That's what we are on about here.

The above is posted so it is easy to copy and paste for future responses.

[manarak]

I miss the sound infrastructure and public works of the west. Parks and clean streets mostly. But I love the excitement and easygoing lifestyle here. And the heat. Food too.

What good are streets that are clean but empty of vendors, carts, passers-by ? When I walk in a street in Europe it just feels dead, my only interest is to pass through as quick as possible.

[beachproperty]

Nsimmons,

I would've quoted you're post before I responded but such a fiction from such a paranoid person needs only to be seen once. Since this thread is about Thai's impressions of the West can we assume you're Thai. Oh no....you're an Aussie from the land of OZ. Well sorry to say that psychotic idiots when traveling through airports saying things they think are funnying are going to be put through the wringer and rightfully so.

Maybe next time you post you should read what the thread is about..... and then you can respond with something pertinent.....

[siamike]

Gentlemen ... please ... there is no knockout punch here ...

There are many great places around the world to live ... in the States, I loved SanDiego or Boulder Co.

I'm more interested in what your Thai Partner thought of living in the West, her (and your) thoughts and observations, how she adapted and did you both (eventually) return to Thailand.

Leave the other conversations for the Pub please.

THANKS ...

.

Absolutely David, I enjoy what the other Thai folks comment about it here. My wife went to a Temple in Berkeley a few weeks ago. Met a number of Thai folk, she spoke with them. Most said its hard here in the US. Some liked it, others felt stuck but hoped they could stay long enough to bring family. She said a great number missed being home. Interestingly she said most lived in rented rooms with many others to be able to afford staying here. I guess for some that may work but It would never work for me. I did my roommate deal in college.

My Thai wife & I lived in Silicon Valley for about 6 years, and like JAFO we lived a comfortable life there, but we too knew that there was simply no way we could ever afford to continue living anywhere in Silicon Valley on my retirement income. My wife had attained her US citizenship not long after we were married which would make staying in the US very easy, and we discussed moving to several other lower-cost-of-living locations within the USA after I retired. She always reassured me that she would live wherever I wanted, but for her, there was never really a choice,... she always wanted to move back to her home country. My wife earned her BS from a college here in Thailand and for her, moving back was always more about better business opportunities than all other reasons combined. My wife is in her mid 40s and even though my retirement income is more than enough to afford us a comfortable life here in Thailand, she still has a strong work ethic and drive that pushes her to keep working. We've been living in Thailand for the last 9 months, and so far, I'm quite content to stay here, and my wife is ecstatic to be back.

We met many Thai-Farlang couples in Silicon Valley and made many friends which we still stay in contact with; about half of them are planning to move to Thailand upon their retirement, while the other half are more than happy to visit Thailand for a long vacation, but claim they will never live here full time.

BTW, having lived in Silicon Valley for 6 years, we both completely agree with the observations made in the OP. And if you live or work near Sunnyvale / Mountain View, try "Shana" for good Thai food.

[wilcopops]

this comparison is just utterly facile........... it isn't even comparing like with like and shows a huge gap in understanding how and why societies work.

US is also a particularly bad example to choose in any circumstances as it is a far too variable society in the first place.

Look! - its a pointless thread with some very pointless replies.

Man ... are you just having a bad day ... or decade?

Mate, do you have a Thai Partner?

Lived in the West ... what was her/his observations of that time?

That's what we are on about here.

.

I have far more intelligent conversations with my Thai opposite number than anything I've seen on this thread which isn't about that anyway....read the OP.

Edited October 28, 2014 by wilcopops

[Rooo]

Off topic posts removed.

[David48]

this comparison is just utterly facile........... it isn't even comparing like with like and shows a huge gap in understanding how and why societies work.

US is also a particularly bad example to choose in any circumstances as it is a far too variable society in the first place.

Look! - its a pointless thread with some very pointless replies.

Man ... are you just having a bad day ... or decade?

Mate, do you have a Thai Partner?

Lived in the West ... what was her/his observations of that time?

That's what we are on about here.

I have far more intelligent conversations with my Thai opposite number than anything I've seen on this thread which isn't about that anyway....read the OP.

I am the OP ...

.

[eldragon]

I miss the sound infrastructure and public works of the west. Parks and clean streets mostly. But I love the excitement and easygoing lifestyle here. And the heat. Food too.

What good are streets that are clean but empty of vendors, carts, passers-by ? When I walk in a street in Europe it just feels dead, my only interest is to pass through as quick as possible.

One of my exes said she liked Europe, but asked where people eat. I get that. One of my favorite things to share with people about TH is, "If you want something to eat, just keep walking and you'll find it eventually."

[eldragon]

I miss the sound infrastructure and public works of the west. Parks and clean streets mostly. But I love the excitement and easygoing lifestyle here. And the heat. Food too.

Mate, do you have a Thai Partner?

Lived in the West ... what was her/his observations of that time?

That's what we are on about here.

The above is posted so it is easy to copy and paste for future responses.

Sorry, I see that now. If it adds to the topic, I'd never take a girl away from her home. Oz, maybe. But in general, I feel it's best to keep a girl near her family.

[Beetlejuice]

On some of that OP I fail to see the logic.

Where I, my Thai wife and our kids lived in the United States and in the UK, except for the crippling bills of maintaining, renting or owning a home, we found the standard cost of living mostly equated with Thailand, such as food, clothing and other sundry items and in many cases it was actually cheaper, state school education and medical on the national health, plus my Thai wife had all the same statutory rights as an American and a UK citizen, which is more than I can say for my situation in Thailand, being scared to put one foot out of place and not even allowed to fart in the bath without first obtaining the permission of the authorities and a work permit.

Regarding `she could not understand why people are so wasteful and inconsiderate`, nothing more pertains to this than the lifestyles of the Thais. Their trash and litter strewn everywhere, some parts of the open areas down my way have become local rubbish dumps, they burn their trash and fill the whole area with stinking, choking fumes and smoke, have no consideration whatsoever for others living within the community, and as for being wasteful, mostly everything in Thailand has become disposable and throw away, not much here is built to quality standards and made to last, so in fact the guy`s Thai wife should have felt right at home in the United States.

[David48]

... If it adds to the topic, I'd never take a girl away from her home. Oz, maybe. But in general, I feel it's best to keep a girl near her family.

That, Sir, could almost be a thread just in itself.

It's a narrow path to walk to make sure the Cultural and Family Thais ties are maintained, yet, enough breathing space to create a a new life in your chosen country ... in our case, Australia.

.

[WitawatWatawit]

David, a great post - very informative for those who have different circumstances and therefore have nothing much to offer first hand on this particular topic. Secondhand, most of the Thais I know back in NZ, including my beloved niece-in-law whom I've known since she was a schoolgirl and who is a full-on Kiwi now, stay there because they prefer the honest and open attitude to life. Sure it's cold down in the south, it's boring, it's just a big country town, and it's a nanny state, but they know where they stand, and they like it. In legal and social issues, there isn't any prevarication, and most importantly, it's a one-size-fits-all country, no special privileges because you're rich.

As an aside, if there is anything that causes me to get a little down every now and then in this country, it's the relentless dishonesty and corruption and the blatant hypocrisy of those who think they are elite - but these are issues for another thread. Perhaps one on egalitarianism - ???

[Berkshire]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Check out the immigration statistics. One could argue that because the US draws the most immigrants than any other country in the world, that is must be the "best" for some reason or the other.

There are many ways to slice stats, in your example USA, by percentage of population, USA does not have the highest number of legal immigrants.

The US takes almost 1 million new immigrants each year....That's people that want to move and live permanently in the US. Name one country that has more legal immigrants each year than that?

You can quote all the "best places" surveys that you want. The fact is when it comes down mto people willing to move one's life and the costs associated with it, the US comes out on top every time.

Wow, you and the gumball dude serious? I mean, I love America, but wouldn't use the number of immigrants as proof. There are a gazillion Mexicans/Latin Americans pouring into the US every year. But it's mostly because of the utter hopelessness and despair that these migrants face in their home countries. And the fact that the US gov doesn't have the stomach to deal with illegal immigration in a decisive and convincing manner. Heck, Thailand gets tons of immigrants from Myanmar, Cambodia, etc. And it's because these folks face the same sort of hopelessness.