102 Air India pilots found flying with lapsed licences

[Maestro]

102 Air India pilots found flying with lapsed licences

Saurabh Sinha, TNN | Oct 26, 2014, 01.39AM IST

NEW DELHI: The next time you take a flight in India, keep your fingers crossed and hope that your pilot is flying on a valid licence, not a lapsed one.

Air India has discovered that as many as 102 pilots of its wide body Boeing fleet have been flying without clearing a mandatory test that helps keep their licences valid and without which the same lapse.

The airline informed the downgraded-by-US directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA) which, worryingly, failed to detect on its own the flying by so many pilots with lapsed licences.

Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/102-Air-India-pilots-found-flying-with-lapsed-licences/articleshow/44936126.cms

-- The Times of India 2014-10-26

[MJP]

So many industries are plagued with this licence renewal shake down. My site guys are endlessly having to take silly tests and renew licences for plant they've been operating for years. It's a shylock business.

[Mosha]

The topic title plays down the problem. 350 across aviation industry there.

[ezzra]

I take comfort in the fact that at least they HAD a license at all, and not a fake one for that matter,

so consider your selves lucky....

[NeverSure]

I have no doubt that in some industries this is government intrusion.

But flying is a serious business. Rules change. Routes change. Airworthiness directives are issued. The periodic recertification includes a physical, not at all limited to a vision and cardiac test. It includes some flying to be sure the pilot still has the coordination and skill. It includes class time and a written test.

Not everyone passes it, and those who don't shouldn't be flying passengers.

[rethaier]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

[MJP]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

[robblok]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

It seems people hate permanent education, this is to keep you doing things safe not doing it your own way because you have done it for many years.

If they retest people driving cars they will find some shocking things too.. people "forget" what they have been taught.

[peterpop]

As an ex airline pilot I assure you that routine testing and training is essential. It ensures a reliably high standard and pride in the profession. Not all pilots are always up to scratch. There exists a permanent proportion of pilots that whilst occupying a slot in the ''Acceptable Spectrum'' they occupy the lowest levels of that spectrum and need to be monitored. Also there are sometimes health issues that appear from nowhere and undermine the pilots abilities. NOT to have such checks is for sloppy amateur airlines that should be avoided by the public.

[jor]

I have no doubt that in some industries this is government intrusion.

But flying is a serious business. Rules change. Routes change. Airworthiness directives are issued. The periodic recertification includes a physical, not at all limited to a vision and cardiac test. It includes some flying to be sure the pilot still has the coordination and skill. It includes class time and a written test.

Not everyone passes it, and those who don't shouldn't be flying passengers.

Exactly.

Why wouldn't you keep current unless you have something to hide.

[samran]

I have no doubt that in some industries this is government intrusion.

But flying is a serious business. Rules change. Routes change. Airworthiness directives are issued. The periodic recertification includes a physical, not at all limited to a vision and cardiac test. It includes some flying to be sure the pilot still has the coordination and skill. It includes class time and a written test.

Not everyone passes it, and those who don't shouldn't be flying passengers.

Neversure finding himself on the left of an issue. I think I might go buy myself a lotto ticket!!!

[MJP]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

It seems people hate permanent education, this is to keep you doing things safe not doing it your own way because you have done it for many years.

If they retest people driving cars they will find some shocking things too.. people "forget" what they have been taught.

Some of these guys are their sixties, been doing the same job all their lives and they're still alive, uninjured.

It's getting ridiculous.

[Credo]

The issue I have is with a company that doesn't comply. I wonder what else isn't in compliance.

As you get older your reaction time slows down. Periodic testing for a dangerous occupation is essential. There are a lot of lives at stake.

Flying is like strychnine, one drop kills.

[Chicog]

Rechecks are essential for passenger safety. Things change and they need to stay current. If you don't get that, you don't understand the job. It's not like bus driving F F S.

[Baerboxer]

So many industries are plagued with this licence renewal shake down. My site guys are endlessly having to take silly tests and renew licences for plant they've been operating for years. It's a shylock business.

Are your guys responsible for the lives of many passengers, fellow air crew, and operating something as complicated as a wide bodied passenger airliner. Not to mention potential ground fatalities should it crash.

Airline safety checks, including pilot competency, are hardly silly tests. What would you do, a one time pass for life and then off you go?

Air India has had one or two incidences concerning their crews.

[Baerboxer]

The issue I have is with a company that doesn't comply. I wonder what else isn't in compliance.

As you get older your reaction time slows down. Periodic testing for a dangerous occupation is essential. There are a lot of lives at stake.

Flying is like strychnine, one drop kills.

You worry would be my worry too. How many corners are cut, rules by-passed, forgotten or ignored.

Some air lines I simply won't fly with. Air India is one.

[Baerboxer]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

It seems people hate permanent education, this is to keep you doing things safe not doing it your own way because you have done it for many years.

If they retest people driving cars they will find some shocking things too.. people "forget" what they have been taught.

Some of these guys are their sixties, been doing the same job all their lives and they're still alive, uninjured.

It's getting ridiculous.

Are you a qualified pilot? Do you have any idea how things have likely changed since some of these pilots qualified? Some professions, doctors, dentists, accountants require their practitioners to complete so many hours of learning per year to ensure they are up to date and continuously learning. Why would you think this a bad idea for pilots?

Also, people health and abilities change over time. Would you want to fly with a pilot who had not undergone recent medical and competency tests?

[robblok]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

It seems people hate permanent education, this is to keep you doing things safe not doing it your own way because you have done it for many years.

If they retest people driving cars they will find some shocking things too.. people "forget" what they have been taught.

Some of these guys are their sixties, been doing the same job all their lives and they're still alive, uninjured.

It's getting ridiculous.

Its just something you don't like.. most people now understand the idea of permanent education. Its been around for ages. Especially older people should be tested their abilities do get less. There is complacency just like what I am seeing with you that is why there should be permanent education for some jobs.

[finnomick]

Khaosan Road, the hub of genuine pilot's licenses.....they'll be doing a roaring trade

[ClutchClark]

This article appears to suggest India Regulators place the same priority on aircraft travel as they do on the rest of the transportation sector.

Plane = Train ?

Uh-oh

[MrY]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

It seems people hate permanent education, this is to keep you doing things safe not doing it your own way because you have done it for many years.

If they retest people driving cars they will find some shocking things too.. people "forget" what they have been taught.

Some of these guys are their sixties, been doing the same job all their lives and they're still alive, uninjured.

It's getting ridiculous.

That's the nature of the beast. Any pilot that is involved in a fatal accident has never had one before and never will again...

[lumply]

Peterprop is absolutely correct. A professional pilot who does not take his 'renewals' seriously is a person who will certainly not take his flight management responsibilities seriously, even though he may be an 'ace' pilot in terms of handling an aircraft. The renewal process can be stressful even for an high hour pilot who is never more than 6 months away from being suspended if he or she does not come up to scratch on the day, including the I/R checks. The process in the 'sweatbox' and associated paperwork requirements are a real test of character. You are being constantly tested and assessed throughout your career like no other profession, and this comes on top of having to pass the initial 14 Air Transport Pilot License written exams, nearly 1,000 hours of study, and 1,500 hours of flight experience before being awarded your full ATPL by the licencing authority. Then there are the medical examinations to get through. Isn't that a good thing?

[tw25rw]

On the other hand, they are cheap..

[Benmart]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

When one makes the rules, they can do as they please. Otherwise, comply or suffer the consequence.

[Alwyn]

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

are you guys crazy? Renewing licenses entails fresh medicals etc. At times like this eye sight failing gets caught, indications of alcohol or/and drug abuse, blood pressure anomalies and so on. I'd say it was not only necessary but critical.

[OPG]

Seriously, two countries that I HATE FLYING WITHIN are India and China!

Every time I board a flight in either of these two countries (I've traveled a lot within their borders for business purposes), I begin to pray. I'm not just saying this, I really, really do begin to pray and I'm not the praying type. What I hate most, is landing (in any other country besides India and China, I have no issues with any of the flying which includes landing) in these two countries. I've never had a soft landing. On approach, at first I would look out the window to make sure the wings are leveled, which are usually never until all wheels are on the ground and the approach speed is not too fast to just closing my eyes and grabbing onto my seat while I pray that we do not crash on approach.

This is an honest to god true story, I was on approach to Lucknow...I was tired and had fallen asleep. I was sitting in the exit row, but middle seat. I didn't realize that we were about to land, so of course I remained asleep. The airplane hit the ground so hard, that I thought we had crashed. If it wasn't for my seat belt holding me down in my seat, I would have jumped on top of the person sitting in front of me. Scared the living daylights out me. The two Indian citizens sitting on each side of me where laughing. Sadly, this is just one story, but I have many the same where we hit so hard that I am so surprised that the tires don't explode on impact or that we managed to stop before the runway ends etc... I DREAD having to fly in these 2 countries...and anybody who has traveled extensively in these two countries know exactly what I'm talking about, which leads me to believe the story that Air India found out that many pilots have lapsed licenses.

[Jdiddy]

So what difference does a having a valid license vs lapsed license make?

When my car license expires do my driving skills suddenly become non existent overnight?

[tw25rw]

So what difference does a having a valid license vs lapsed license make?

When my car license expires do my driving skills suddenly become non existent overnight?

It means you can't legally drive. It also means no one should be employing you to drive.

[djhotsox]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Peterprop is absolutely correct. A professional pilot who does not take his 'renewals' seriously is a person who will certainly not take his flight management responsibilities seriously, even though he may be an 'ace' pilot in terms of handling an aircraft. The renewal process can be stressful even for an high hour pilot who is never more than 6 months away from being suspended if he or she does not come up to scratch on the day, including the I/R checks. The process in the 'sweatbox' and associated paperwork requirements are a real test of character. You are being constantly tested and assessed throughout your career like no other profession, and this comes on top of having to pass the initial 14 Air Transport Pilot License written exams, nearly 1,000 hours of study, and 1,500 hours of flight experience before being awarded your full ATPL by the licencing authority. Then there are the medical examinations to get through. Isn't that a good thing?

What Flicking difference does it make. A lapsed license doesn't mean they forgot how to fly, only that they forgot to pay the tax.

Thank you. Exactly.

are you guys crazy? Renewing licenses entails fresh medicals etc. At times like this eye sight failing gets caught, indications of alcohol or/and drug abuse, blood pressure anomalies and so on. I'd say it was not only necessary but critical.

Lumply I will not disagree with either you or Peterprop on the points that you raised here as I've been through it all myself having over 10,000 hrs on wide-body aircraft with 5 years of that in the left seat as Commander.

However, according to the article it was the annual route briefing that the Air India pilots were not current on which technically invalidates their license but that would be "in-house" training and likely only a short quiz (15 questions maybe?) on a computer after reading some provided material and maybe even "open book". I am not going to say that it isn't important, as it is, or it is ok for it to lapse (shame on Air India), as it is not, but I would (maybe) not question the ability of a pilot to safely operate the flight if they have done the initial route briefing and are only not current on the annual re-test........?

The Indian pilots likely have more to worry about than simply that....things like the PPC that the Jet Airways pilots weren't current on! Now that is serious. That is the simulator check every six months to determine the ability of each pilot during critical phases of flight (take-offs/landings) and dealing with emergencies (engine failures etc). I can't believe actually that was allowed at all?? I would think that would automatically void any insurance the airliner had in the event of an incident or accident? Crazy.

As an often too common rhetorical question throughout Asia....."What were they thinking?"

[F4UCorsair]

So many industries are plagued with this licence renewal shake down. My site guys are endlessly having to take silly tests and renew licences for plant they've been operating for years. It's a shylock business.

Plant operation is somewhat different from flying airline categofy aircraft!!