Farming In Isaan

[Maizefarmer]

Hi guys

I have been watching this forum for some time now. Interesting to see how many guys have given farming a go.

As we all know strictly speaking we shouldn't be, but that said - keep your nose clean, remember where we are (out in rural areas) is not Patpong Beach or Nana Plaza, and no-one is going to hassle you. The "values" out in rural Thiland are defineatley not what they are in Bangkok or Patpong Beach, and if anything my experiance is that the locals will have a grudging respect for your willingness to embedd so deeply in their culture and way of life. That at least is my experiance after 14 years at it.

For what it worth - just to proove it can be done, this is my situation:

I have 460 acres which is somewhere around 1300 rai. That is split into 450 rai s/cane, 250 rai foarge grass, 500 rai maize, about 20 rai Makuoa (little green tomatoes you see cut up and put into all sorts of Thai dishes). The rest is bare bush.

The cane goes to the mill (the "trash" is kept for dry feed) and the grass and maize is (mixed with the cane "trash") is used to support 143 dairy cows and 78 beef.

I have no experiance with goats, chickens or Buffalo

Tractors are a second hand New Holland 8870 with an 8970 fuel pump - good for 230hp, and 2 old Ford Series 40 units. The 8870 has a 3point linkage and pto at the front, which is used to carry around and drive a skid mounted water pump for irrigation. The 8870 is also used to carry a Kemper front mounted forage harvest for the maize and grass.

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all, other than to say this: things grow quick in Thailand (even up here in the North) when its wet, but come dry season, it all comes to a stop. The key to it is having ample water - especially if you have livestock, and a big big issue if you have dairy cows. The scond problem is: protein value of feed. If you can at all afford to feed fresh then that is the way to go. Of course the logistics of that really are not always easy, in which case you are going to be forced to add commerically produced protein - and for those of you who rely on commerically produced protein, fishmeal is excellent.

Yes, I do have water - from both a canal and a river, as well as a borehole, and a dam.

The old Series 40's are used for bailing feed for the dry season.

So hows' al lthis come about. Well, I met my wife at University in the good ol' USofA and we have been together for 19 years now - 14 of which we have been in Thailand on an almost full time basis. She's a vet and I am an agricultural engineer.

We have 2 kids a the the International School near Khao Yai (Pak Chong area of Korat).

I am a permanent resident but have never considered getting T/citizenship, although the wife is a dualcitizen and so are the kids.

As a sideline a make wind generators ( I think there is a German guy somewhere around who's into solar panels) and build the occassional high-rise agricultural sprayer. Both are made totally from local components - you'd be suprized how easy it is to build a 5 - 10kw wind generator for a fraction of what they cost commercialy!

Would I give up this life for anything - not a chance. Do I miss the hustle and bustle of cities and beach resorts - like hel_l! and theres' nothing wrong with spicy Isaan food and a glass of "sato" or "Mekong". Talking about food - I was in the UK about 2 months back for the first time in 7 years. The amount of processed food Westerners are eating nowadays is incrediable. Everything is processed and comes in a plastic packet, not to mention how "fat" Western food is. I have eaten anything from a tin, plastic or cadboard container since I left Europe - its all fresh in this part of the world.

Other thing about the West is just how "sterile" lifestyles are there now-adays. When I was a kid I ALWAYS playing outside come wind, rain or shine. No one cared a shit. Nowadays the average kid is in front of a TV set or computer game and I fear to add, although the average rural Thai kid is not exposed to that, its is starting to creep into rural Thai society. Am I glad my kids were brought up away from city enviroments - yes, do I care if my youngest wants to run around in the bush barefoot on a rainy day - no. Do I have to worry about some pervert having a go at him - no.

WE have a lot to be grateful for. I know its politics and its coppers are as bent as hel_l, but it sure beats Western lifestyles as far as I am concerned. Us expats living out here in rurak Thailand couldn't have it much better, now could we.

Tim Watkins (or as the Thai's call me - Khun Seri).

[RamdomChances]

Hi mate, welcome aboard

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all

go on bore us I'm tiny in comparison, just 60 odd rai and about 70 dairy (all milkers) ( I was up to over 100 last year but have downsised). I see you mentioned fish meal, do you mix your own food ?

What sort of Ave milk yeild are you getting, we feed "Thunder" concentrate 18% protien, it's a lot cheper than CP and "jumbo" either cut'n'carried or just grazed and at the moment am getting about 13 kg/head/day (just the milkers) The ave around here is around 10 Kg. Do you make silage ? With that much land you must have an excess of forage, we struggle just to get enough "fresh" without even thinging about silage. Do you raise your own dairy ? We used to but it's just not worth it at the moment with the price of dairy droping so much, mabye a bit short sighted. What sort of price are dairy going for around there? I can buy in decent milkers (pregnant, second or third calf) for around 20,000 at the moment.

Loads of dairy farms have shut around here in the last year mainly do to the increced price of food/hay ect but the milk staying the same. How much do you get for you milk ? we get about 11.55 Bhat/kg

A lot of places here mix their own "concentrate" and it's cheaper but I don't really have the storage/mixing facilities or the time /staff to do it, How many staf have you got? What sort of milking machines do you use.

Feeling a bit green looking at the pic of you tractor, put's my little Kubuta to shame

RC

[RamdomChances]

sorry double post

Edited August 1, 2006 by RamdomChances

[z21rhd]

Hi guys

I have been watching this forum for some time now. Interesting to see how many guys have given farming a go.

As we all know strictly speaking we shouldn't be, but that said - keep your nose clean, remember where we are (out in rural areas) is not Patpong Beach or Nana Plaza, and no-one is going to hassle you. The "values" out in rural Thiland are defineatley not what they are in Bangkok or Patpong Beach, and if anything my experiance is that the locals will have a grudging respect for your willingness to embedd so deeply in their culture and way of life. That at least is my experiance after 14 years at it.

For what it worth - just to proove it can be done, this is my situation:

I have 460 acres which is somewhere around 1300 rai. That is split into 450 rai s/cane, 250 rai foarge grass, 500 rai maize, about 20 rai Makuoa (little green tomatoes you see cut up and put into all sorts of Thai dishes). The rest is bare bush.

The cane goes to the mill (the "trash" is kept for dry feed) and the grass and maize is (mixed with the cane "trash") is used to support 143 dairy cows and 78 beef.

I have no experiance with goats, chickens or Buffalo

Tractors are a second hand New Holland 8870 with an 8970 fuel pump - good for 230hp, and 2 old Ford Series 40 units. The 8870 has a 3point linkage and pto at the front, which is used to carry around and drive a skid mounted water pump for irrigation. The 8870 is also used to carry a Kemper front mounted forage harvest for the maize and grass.

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all, other than to say this: things grow quick in Thailand (even up here in the North) when its wet, but come dry season, it all comes to a stop. The key to it is having ample water - especially if you have livestock, and a big big issue if you have dairy cows. The scond problem is: protein value of feed. If you can at all afford to feed fresh then that is the way to go. Of course the logistics of that really are not always easy, in which case you are going to be forced to add commerically produced protein - and for those of you who rely on commerically produced protein, fishmeal is excellent.

Yes, I do have water - from both a canal and a river, as well as a borehole, and a dam.

The old Series 40's are used for bailing feed for the dry season.

So hows' al lthis come about. Well, I met my wife at University in the good ol' USofA and we have been together for 19 years now - 14 of which we have been in Thailand on an almost full time basis. She's a vet and I am an agricultural engineer.

We have 2 kids a the the International School near Khao Yai (Pak Chong area of Korat).

I am a permanent resident but have never considered getting T/citizenship, although the wife is a dualcitizen and so are the kids.

As a sideline a make wind generators ( I think there is a German guy somewhere around who's into solar panels) and build the occassional high-rise agricultural sprayer. Both are made totally from local components - you'd be suprized how easy it is to build a 5 - 10kw wind generator for a fraction of what they cost commercialy!

Would I give up this life for anything - not a chance. Do I miss the hustle and bustle of cities and beach resorts - like hel_l! and theres' nothing wrong with spicy Isaan food and a glass of "sato" or "Mekong". Talking about food - I was in the UK about 2 months back for the first time in 7 years. The amount of processed food Westerners are eating nowadays is incrediable. Everything is processed and comes in a plastic packet, not to mention how "fat" Western food is. I have eaten anything from a tin, plastic or cadboard container since I left Europe - its all fresh in this part of the world.

Other thing about the West is just how "sterile" lifestyles are there now-adays. When I was a kid I ALWAYS playing outside come wind, rain or shine. No one cared a shit. Nowadays the average kid is in front of a TV set or computer game and I fear to add, although the average rural Thai kid is not exposed to that, its is starting to creep into rural Thai society. Am I glad my kids were brought up away from city enviroments - yes, do I care if my youngest wants to run around in the bush barefoot on a rainy day - no. Do I have to worry about some pervert having a go at him - no.

WE have a lot to be grateful for. I know its politics and its coppers are as bent as hel_l, but it sure beats Western lifestyles as far as I am concerned. Us expats living out here in rurak Thailand couldn't have it much better, now could we.

Tim Watkins (or as the Thai's call me - Khun Seri).

---------------------------------------->

Tim (Khun Seri) ,

Well, another rural man to join the rural club - and one who enjoys it for all the good stuff.

I also have only lived in the real rural areas of Thailand , life is better here despite the few negatives for a westerner. However, the only depressing part is the poverty in Isaan's rural villages, where people seem incapable of escaping from its grip.

Question is white maize grown in Thailand ?

Suadaao

[vision25]

-----

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all, other than to say this:

-----

Please do.

We currently live in the UK but are planning to return to to Thailand next year so my wife decied it would be a good idea to get some cows. The only thing is that I know absolutely nothing about farming and my wife doesn't know much more. Thankfully her sister and husband will be looking after them with their herd so it's not really a problem but any info what so ever will be gratefully apprieciated.

At the moment we only have 11 head of beef cattle but the idea is to bring this up to about 100.

I have been told that at 1 year old each cow should sell for about 10,000bt, can anyone confirm this. What does a 1 year old cow weigh?

Apparently, 1 rai of land will support 1 cow is this about right?

I suppose the most important question is will this be reasonably profitable?

Vision25

[Maizefarmer]

Average yields – split it into wet & dry season:

Wet season average for the last 3 years for dry season is 19.36 and for wet is 17.84kg.

The problem is not so much the heat (which the cows don’t like) – more so though it’s humidity: dairy cows hate it.

I weigh up for 23% for about 4 weeks before lactation starts, then drop down to about 18% after calving for the rest of the cycle. Then stop completly when the cow goes dry and just monitor the body mass. So long as that stays up I won’t feed that cow any additives.

But heres my question for you guys who have dairy cows – have you ever checked your butter fat contents – what are they, or doesn’t your co-op/buyer ever worry about it?

Yes I do silage – it’s the only economical way to get through the dry season.

I “cut & carry” every day – though that it mechanized with a forage harvester head mounted to the front of the New Holland tractor.

How much should a 1 year old weigh?

How long is a piece of string? It really is down to how it is been fed, but if you are getting Baht10K for a one year old, I would be looking at the economics of how that animal is been looked after i.e. it is below its potential.

At that age that animal should be consuming around 3 – 4 pounds of good quality feed per 110 – 120 pounds body weight and drinking no less than 18 gallons of fresh clean water p/day. Now add the cost of “licks” and concentrates”. Now look at the amount of cattle you have – and if it’s less than 12 and that is your only income, then you are going to struggle. But you also need to look at the birth weight, and for Thailand that is quite low on average. So the question you ask is not so easy to answer but lets assume you are starting with a animal that weighed 34kg at birth (a realistic figure for Thailand), then assuming its been fed & managed properly you will want the following weights up to 12 months as follows:

Male: 3 6 9 12 (months)

95kg + 165+ 200+ 310+

Female: 90kg+ 150+ 180+ 265+

Those figures are at the lower end of the scale and take into consideration Northern Thai conditions – but anything less than that and you need to take a serious look at what is going on i.e. how the animals are managed versus what it cost and what your returns are.

Another question was: can you maintain a cow (dairy or beef) on 1 rai?

Yes you can and you can do it very well indeed: IF, if you manage that 1 rai properly (i.e. electric wire and “strip grazing”). 3 animals on 2 rai is quite possible if you manage your pasture well, and that I mean, if done properly there is no reason why the weights should not be above those I have given above.

Lets be honest about this: most guys up North who are into keeping cattle are doing so because the girl they are with comes from a family that keeps them in the first place – so why not add to it. Fine, the problem is as someone else said, the poverty in Northern Thailand can be extreme- which is why most of us have been “dragged” with wallet in hand up North!! Er……… correct me if I am wrong. And that means in most cases the cows are not at their best either. This is not a criticism at all. The reality is that the average Thai farmer has little formal education and does not manage his livestock as well as they could be managed – not because he doesn’t want to, but because poverty & circumstance prevent him from doing so. The point is: if you are so inclined to inject a bit of capital into a livestock project, do your homework and do not rely only on what your Thai “host” family is doing. Do not repeat the mistakes – use the capital to correct the mistakes. E’nuf said.

Can you start with 11 head and bring it up to 100 – er…… yes you can, but I’d take a very close look at what I was starting with – you’d want good stock and you want to take some advise from the local agricul college, breeding station or Uni and find out whats best for your area and how best to manage them. Personally I’d want to start with more than that. Remember your income comes from trading those animals, and if you only have 11 how are you going to sell as well as increase what you have. Its going to take you a mighty long time before you get any return.

RandomChances commented that a lot of dairy farms were closing around where he is - and he will be saying the same thing in 2 years time. True, the price of milk is very low in Thailand. The irony is that we have a shortage of milk in Thailand and to make up for that shortage dried and skimmed milk products are imported from Australia and Malaysia. Another way of putting it: Thaksin Inc. does not support his farming communities very well, despite giving all the rural villages (or shall I say the village heads) 1 million Baht each at the last election!!).

I am getting Baht 11. 83 p/kg, but I have to fight for that. Baht 11.55 is not to bad, but it does emphasize the need to manage properly to control costs versus milk production.

Baht20k for a pregnant 2nd or 3rd milker is not bad, but again – that is only half the story. You are not telling me if that animal is coming with a verifiable milk production record that you have seen and which is a genuine record. Is that animal tagged or branded and what semen is been used. That price can be good or bad – depending on the animals history and why it is been sold.

Yes – I mix my own meal from the base constituients – its about 35% cheaper than buying premixed protein, but a) you need the equipment and you need volume to make it feasible.

Right I think I have answered most questions – time to get some sleep – I have to be up at 3:00am.

Cheers guys.

[Nawtilus]

MF, good to have someone like you on here that has a reasonable amount of farming land other than the smaller hobby plots you here about.

I was born into a farming family and grew up on farms and worked on properties in Oz for years and attended agriculture college before going in a different direction later on, but still love the lifestyle and would love to get back into it one day.

What is the international school like where your kids go, I also have 2 kids and would love for them to experience such a life while they are still young enough to enjoy the adventure just like I did as a child, some of my fondest memories with my grandfather and his sheep and cattle and getting warm in front of the fires on freezing nights.

If your keen to comment on land prices for larger acreages I would love to hear it and also some discussion on income from beef cattle only as I am not experienced or at all intersted in doing dairy cattle myself. Very interested to know what size land and what size heard is required to make a good living in Los from.

Also do you have employees ? How many ?

[z21rhd]

The problem is not so much the heat (which the cows don’t like) – more so though it’s humidity: dairy cows hate it.

At that age that animal should be consuming around 3 – 4 pounds of good quality feed per 110 – 120 pounds body weight and drinking no less than 18 gallons of fresh clean water p/day.

I fully concur that clean fresh water is an absolute essential. However, this requirement is seldom afforded to cattle that are "pegged-out" to graze on very little in the blazing sun ( a common site in the dry months throughout Isaan) Could you confirm the figure of 18 gallons ie: US 18 gallons x 3.785 = 68.13 litres or Imperial 18 gallons x 4.546 = 81.828 litres , if this figure is the minimum requirement then no wonder the average Thai small holding's cattle fail to thrive.

[Maizefarmer]

Some more info in reply to various questions– I/m going to put everything in one posting. Just skip to the bold type at the beginning of each paragraph if you’re not interested in the waffle and other detail.

NAWTILAS - The INTERNATIONAL SCHOOL at Khao Yai is good. It’s up there with the other international schools in Thailand – good teachers, good discipline. The reason why I chose it is because a) its way out of any urban environment it has what is recognised as the best language section of any of the private schools and my take with the way Thailand is going (with the sleeping giant of China on our doorstep) is that if your kids leave school fluent in Chinese they will have a competive edge over other youngsters of the same age who do not speak Chinese. There is a fair argument that supports Chinese as a 2nd language not only for Thai kids, but also for European kids – China is about to launch it’s self into the world in a big big way.

The downside is the cost – you are looking at over Baht 200k a year for 2 kids.

LAND PRICES for large acrearges – all depends on where the land is and how viable it is.

No shortage of land in North and North Eastern Thailand, the problem with it is avalibility of water – which will determine what can be done with that land. I would be misleading you if I gave a price, other than to say it can cost as little as Baht 4000 a rai for a rice paddy not in use to over Baht 100k p/rai. As a rule – the closer you get to town/city or village centres the more it costs. In 1992 I paid Baht 17800 p/rai (which has a river running through and a canal along one side but is 27km form the nearest village – cum- small town.

EMPLOYEES – I have 4 full time employees, who are always working on the farm. They get benefits like a house and schooling for the kids. The rest are not considered full-time: 28 vegetable pickers paid per kilo picked according to market prices for that day. They do about 3 – 4 hours p/day. 19 – 23 “extras” cum cane harvest/planting time and about the same cum maize harvest/planting time, for the couple weeks that all takes to each season.

Z21RHD Water Consumption – yup, that’s correct about 70 litres per day of CLEAN water per head of cattle. That’s a figure I would give for a mature animal (or one been fattened for market). More stock weighing in at less than 350 pounds you can reduce that to around 40 litres p/120 pounds body weight. So if you have 10 x 500 lbs cows you are going to need to supply them with over a 1000 litres per water p/day – and if they do not have that (especially “milkers”) their production is going to suffer.

You’ll get by with a little less on beef cattle, but a “milker” is going to be pissed off with you if its getting less than that. You are absolutely spot on with your comment regards why the average small holders’ cattle stock does not thrive. It’s a awkward cycle made worse by the fact that less water compounds its self into also meaning less fresh feed. And it’s not as if water is not there. You can dig a borehole just about anywhere in the North/North East and you will get water – it’s a question of how deep and what it costs to drill that borehole, and a lot of the small holders just cannot afford that expense – and are not going to do it if the land there stock is on is not their land (which is another problem a lot of small holders – they don’t own the land, they rent it cheaply, cheaply because its got no water to encourage forage growth).

But the one goes with the other – i.e. they are not going to consume that amount of water if they are not getting feed to support that metabolism. The 2 are very much related.

RANDOM CHANCES wanted some additional detail on this subject, and this whole thing about water is the crux to the problem of raising livestock in Northern Thailand – you must must have clean water year round in sufficient quantities. Without it your livestock are not going to be what they should be.

Moving onto feed: the best way of reducing feed costs for cattle in Thailand is a quality forage silage store for the dry season.

This is my experience – i.e. so I know it works and is achievable in NE/Thailand.

I harvest my maize “wet” at 74% moisture content – which allows for a couple of percent droppage before I get it packed and sealed – normally around 3 – 4 hours.

If you are using maize – purchased or cut yourself - make the effort to get “cracked” kernels – the maize kernels must be cracked open/broken. It does mean though that when harvested that the harvester must have a “corn cracker” (usually a set of parrellel rollers located before the chopping blades – depending on what type of forage harvester head you use)– which most Thai small scale farmers do not have sadly.

If mechanically cut, set the blades/cutting speed for around 2 – 3cm (max) particle length. My experience is if they forage particles are much bigger than that, then the cattle are not going to extract as much nutrients/energy/protein as they potentially can.

If mixing with grass, mix 60% maize with 40% grass – or when it comes to feeding, if the 2 are ensiled separately then mix at 60/40. Again, this is my experience in NE/ Thailand

Take a look at your cows shit if they have been eating maize – if not “cracked” most of the kernals will pass through all the stomachs solid and be passed out solid. That represents a 20% + loss of the nutrients they can extract from that maize (fresh or ensiled). Moral of the story – “crack” if you can.

The object of silage is to give the cow an economic feed that results in as much fat & protein production for the dry season as is possible, in the absence of fresh feed.

The 2 are slightly different – with dairy cattle put emphasise on ensiling for protein, and for beef cattle, more emphasise on fat production.

With that in mind 2 issues which will affect the silage quality are Dry matter & Moisture content. If you want the low down detail, I’ll send it to you by email, but the basically:

Dry matter for ensiled grass or maize aim for: 30% for dairy, 34% for beef

Moisture for ensiled grass or maize aim for: 70- 72% for dairy, 74-76% beef)

Whatever you do – grass or maize - ENSURE your moisture content does not drop below 70% prior to ensiling. You will run the very real risk of “overheating” and that means you will have to open the silage up to cool, which, yup you guessed it – means the air has got in and you’ve lost your dry season feed. Conversely, if it’s above 78% - 79%, in the environment we have up in NE/Thailand, my experience is that you will loose a lot of nutrient in moisture run off and encourage the growth of clostridia bacteria. Same result - ruined silage.

The last rule, which you will know, is: keep the air out. I store in pvc lined trenches below ground which is dry and very stable from a temp point of view, but that is only because I have around a thousand tons of the stuff, an there is no need to go to these lengths on a small scale. So long as your silage is ensiled at the right moisture & dry matter content, kept under a roof away from rats and mice (who will eat holes in the container and let air in), you can store your silage in any quantity from 50kg’s upwards, in any type of container so long as it is sealed properly.

Moisture probes are not too expensive and are worth every baht you pay for them. Get one.

The key is to achieve good rates of Lactobacilli and Streptococci bacteria which feed on the sugar content of the silage to produce lactic & acetic acids.

Put some effort into making good silage and you will be off to a good start for the dry season – both feed wise and cost wise.

As for raising your own stock – we are back to the question of feed availability. If you are producing your own feed and have that cost controled, then yes – it has to be the way to go, if you already have “milkers” and can afford to wait 18 – 24 months.

What if it turns out to be a low producer – well then, price it up to get your feed cost back, get it pregnant, and get rid of it – so long as you have kept a record of its development and milk yield and sell it honestly, there will always be someone who will buy it.

This was the rule I used when I first started:

what would a “milker” cost me when the calf I had was ready to start milking – versus – what it would cost you to get that calf to “milking” (and the value of the calf it produces to start milking). In most cases it turned out that keeping the calf till the first lactation, offered the better return – even if it was only few Baht 1000. But that is not always the case, and you may well find that immediate cash flow is more important than potential cash flow 18 months down the line – in which case there is no argument for support cows that are not producing milk.

For what it worth – we milked 139 head this morning in 2hrs 23minutes and got 1798litres (of which 112 litre is going no-where because those cows are having anti-biotics at the moment).

Morning is always about 10% - 12% higher than the afternoon.

Time for fried eggs, fried tomatoe, bacon & toast……..and some coffee.

Catch you guys later.

Tim

.............at this rate I'm going to run out of things to say.

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

When you say that 1 rai will support one cow...do you mean for grazing only or will 1 rai provide all the grazing, forage, and also grow all the supplemental feed required? I'm interested in raising cows for beef...I have about 10 rai and want to develop a diversified program of farming...some vegetable...some rice...some cows. I'm approaching this slowly...I'm doing organic farming so right now my main focus is on developing some good legume management and my irrigation system since this is where I expect the fertility will come from to "power" the entire system. I'm thinking I'll start with two females which will produce calves....and then sell the calves for meat when they mature. I guess this means that when this "herd" hits steady state it will consist of 2 females, 2 cows getting close to slaughter size, and 2 calves who are still sucking. I'm assuming slaughter at about 2 years of age which I guess will require supplemental feed for the cows being raised for slaughter. Do you think that 5 rai would produce all the nutrients required to keep this "herd" of 6 cows healthy and happy?

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

Well cheers Maizefarmer for those excellent replies. Just looking for things to comment on but you have'nt left me much as I fully agree with everything you have writen.

As two VERY general "rules of thumb" yes approx 1 rai will support 1 cow and expect to pay about 1000 bhat/1 month age for beef (thats very general but will give you a starting point). Strip grazing or cut'n'carry is the way to go for max land utilisation

Your getting really good yields my ave over 5 years is just over 12kg, most farms here are lucky to get 10. Do you feed your concentrate "ad lib" a lot of farms that mix their own do as it's cheaper, we feed 1-2 , 1kg concentrate/2 kg milk. The drying off we do exactly the same as you, except we still just give 18%. As you said good quality forage is the key, something I'm still working on We actually get better yields in the rainy season but thats due to the avalibliity of fresh forage. Dry season we make do with a small amout of fresh forage form irrigated land, fang (rice straw) and Fang Mak (urea treated rice straw)

Butter fat is checked at our co-op and we sometimes get a print out of it but generally no one seems to bother.

The problem is not so much the heat (which the cows don’t like) – more so though it’s humidity: dairy cows hate it.

Spot on the humidity does'nt do much for mastitis either which is always worse in rainy season

Baht20k for a pregnant 2nd or 3rd milker is not bad, but again – that is only half the story. You are not telling me if that animal is coming with a verifiable milk production record that you have seen and which is a genuine record. Is that animal tagged or branded and what semen is been used. That price can be good or bad – depending on the animals history and why it is been sold.

Yes of course I was just using it as an example. Getting "verifiable milk production records" is very rare, best you get is actually seeing it milked and weighing it. Mostly they will be tagged with the "ba wat" paper but to be honest it's not worth the paper its written on some times as many farmers don't bother to fill them out and a friendly vet, a little bit of cash and you've got a new tag and paper. What sperm used to be honest I really could'nt care as long as it produces. The "why it's being sold" bit is usually the crutial factor as no one wants to sell off their best cows. You can turn quite a tidy profit off an ave milker, say giving about 20 kg when first lactating even it you have to sell it for beef at a later date, basicaly if something drops to about 7 kg and is'nt pregnant we get rid of it usaully at beef prices.

We buy and sell far more now than we used to, mainly due to the drop on dairy cattle prices. Back to my imaginary ave milker Say you buy it in at 20,000 you should be able to sell for beef at 15,000, well you make the differance back in a couple of months, say get six months resanble profit off it and if you have any conception problems just sell it, if not and it turns out "a good'un" your quids in. When buying at the moment I tend to factor what I will pay over the beef price, so size of cow comes into it as well. A smallish "sow" (first pregnancy) for example I might be able to only sell it for beef at 12,000 bhat so if they are asking 20,000 bhat for it I need to make at least 8,000 bhat to break even....better be a dam good cow . I tend not to buy the more expensive High producers as my feed levels are not as high as yours, a bit like buying a ferrari and putting diesil in it

Keeping and raising calfs even at the present cattle prices you will still get a return even as you say "it might only be a couple of 1000'nd bhat" I've done the maths myself, but you do tend to tie up a lot of money for a long time, feeding them really does eat into you profits, plus if like me you struggle to grow enough forage, they tend to eat a scarce resorce. I feel the price of dairy will go back up in a few years as less and less people rear their own calfs, the overall diry population here must be in decline.

Timing wise we are about the same as you, used to do 100 in about 2 hrs milking about sixty now something like hour and a half. Keeping dairy is water intensive, not only have you the drinking water but the milking palour, and machines need washing down twice a day, along with the cows...well their udders anywa. I have both a bore and a pond, drinking water shoud be freely avalible at all times and idealy situated under some shade.

Thanks for the sialge info, I'll get back to you if I need any details....basicaly if I find myself with a surplus

Cheers RC

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH 1 rai – well managed – will provide ALL feed required for that animal. Perhaps I should define “well managed” – irrespective of whether your methodology is “strip grazing” or “cut ‘n carry”.

It assumes you have a decesent forage to start with i.e. Ruzzi – or Lucy as the Thai’s say (because the can’t pronounce R’s – no R’s in their verbal alphabet!). Ruzzi is not the only one – there are a few others that will do the job just as well – but I grow Ruzzi by the ton, and maintain it well – so I know it works.

It assumes that you have water and can irrigate – and if you can’t go that then you will NOT have the forage growth to support the animal.

It assumes you are cutting at the right time – to maximise feed protien/nutrient content, or are controlling the access the animal has to certain areas of the 1 rai with an electric wire.

It assumes you have a “lick” for your cow.

And lastly it assumes you have AMPLE clean fresh water.

If you can include all the above and manage it properly – then 1 rai will maintain 1 head of livestock. If one of the above is missing, then it will impact on the rest and the whole system will collapse.

Will 5 rai support 6 head – yes, but see above for finer detail (and increased management time!) – but yes – no prob’s. You can push this ratio if things are going good, to 3 head on 2 rai – but watch it, you’ll have very little leeway if something goes wrong.

Both “cut ‘n carry” and “strip graze” will work , but it will be a lot easier to manage if you “cut ‘n carry”. You will have to cut every day – and if you are cutting by hand for 5 animals, I hope you have the determination of a saint, get a small cutter to mount on the rear 3 point of a Kubota or similar and a small trailer to carry the whole lot to the animal. Cut in the early morning and cut again in the late afternoon. Get a couple of small/medium size sprinklers, get on the net and do some research on sprinkler patterns and sprinkler trajectory at various water pressures, and how much they deliver p/hour. I use 2” Nelson rain guns – you don’t need that for 1 rai or even 5 rai – they need a 200hp pump each and throw out about 2 tons of water a minute over about 400 feet radius – all you’ll need is a 3 – 5hp centrifugal pump from the local hardware store – and if you’re really rural make sure you get a single phase pump and not a 3 phase pump.

Take some advise on how long Ruzzi takes to grow around where you are, establish how much your livestock needs per day for each stage of growth, and build that into the quantity of Ruzzi that 1 rai will be producing (in terms of weight) and make sure that that is what you cut and feed per day. Make sure you understand how much dry matter and nutrient Ruzzi has at each stage of growth and how that relates to what the livestock need. Now I can tell you all that – but if you’re motivated you’re going to climb onto your 2 wheeler (with the rest of the family piled on the back!!) and scoot down done to the local breeding station or uni, where you’ll find someone who will first express a lot of suprize because you are a farang, and will then take you aside and give you all the info you need – and in the process, you will have made a friend for life, because as I said in my first posting, they will do anything they can to see you succeed.

See what I am getting at when I talk about management – all these fine details have to be a) worked out and planned for, and then you have to implement it. Don’t skip this stage – do all your calculations before hand and plan for it, then implement it – it will be some work it will be, that’s for sure. But it can be done (I’ve done it) and you’ll get a lot of satisfaction from seeing it all fall into place.

RANDOM CHANCES

Yes – its adlib. Mixing your own is only feasible if done in volume.

I would be lying if I quoted what we are giving, the head heardsman has got it down to a fine point, and its actually time I had a chat with him about that, but form the Alpha Laval printouts and what I can see is been produced milk-wise it looks as if he’s feeding slightly less than 1:2 – more like 0,8:2.

Mastitis – the bain of milk farmers the world over! You can’t escape it can you. Yup,, it’s a bigger problem for us as well in the wet season.

If you can get good quality forage for the dry season you will see your yields up a good 5 – 10%, but its a pointless exercise if your costs are also going up.

Fang & Fang Mak – I have never used it so I am going to reserve comment as I don’t know much about it, other than of course it is used a tremendous amount in the North East. The so-called indigenous cattle breeds utilize it quite well.

Be careful with imported sperm – you stand a good chance of producing a “high mainatenance animal”. All my sperm comes from Chok Chai in Korat (Pak Chong). I go down there once a year and look at production records, versus that animals health record, and will select from that. There is a strong argument that supports using a genetic strain that has local environmental exposure. I had one animal in the mid-late ‘90’s that came from Dutch stock. It was producing over 50kg a day. It was an experiment. It was kept in an air conditioned and climate controlled barn. It was good animal but it was super high maintenance and not cheap to keep. I worked out that it would be viable if I had around 300 of them, but anything less than that and it was simply not viable – end of story, I sold it on to Chok Chai, who now keep it as a research/experimental “milker”.

Going to ut my head down for a few hours….

Tim

[z21rhd]

Tim

Tim,

"controlling the access the animal has to certain areas of the 1 rai with an electric wire."

Where I come from the use of electric fences is common place , we used 12 volt batteries

to produce a low amperage but high voltage discharge . the "fence" would be moved according the rotational grazing potential of each pasture. The cattle after a short period of time would learn that it was not a good idea to eat a delicacy on the other side of the fence, most educated cattle after a time could be kept inside a area even with a string fence!

Question, what type of fence is available in Esaan ? Is there a likelyhood that it won't be there in the morning ? If only we could get away from nose tethering cattle by short pieces of line in order that the beast can forage in a circle in the sun

Suadaao

[Maizefarmer]

You can get them from all the hardware stores that sell things like pumps, sprinklers, fencing material ect ect………. Find the guy who collects the milk in your area and have a chat with him.

They’re not expensive – the whole kit should not be more Baht 1000 and most of them can be run off car batteries or AC house power. For that you will get the control unit and a roll of multi filament chord around 250 long.

I have never had one stolen but I cant speak for your area. I would think though that so long as the field is in view of the house then you should be okay.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Z21 it's the same here with electric fence, but you just buy a small control box and run it from the mains. They are fairly cheap about 1000 bhat I think , never seen any disappear.

Tim

Yea we used to buy in fresh Pangular (sp) grass, sell it localy as well when we used to have a lorry. It just got too expencive, people were stoping buying it and I could'nt really afford to keep the lorry going just for us, but the milk yields we're better. To be honest I'm probably not buying in the stock to get much over say about 14/kg a head. I'm not from a farming background and neither really is the misses so I've just had to learn everything myself. We dont really have the facilities for the really good milkers here, the medical back up is pretty poor as well.

I think the milk indistry here in Nakon is not as mature as in Korat, where you tend to find larger farms and probably better support.

Going from giving Pangular to just "fang" the milk production droped about 40%, but my cost's did come down a lot as well. Fang Mak initialy I was approching the levels of pangular say about 10% less, but after about 3 months it just started to drop off eventually ending up at the levels of straight "fang". Mabye you could help me out a bit here as i've done loads of internet searches trying to find any long term problems with fang mak, but have yet come up with anything.

I'll probably feed it this dry season as well, but before we were geared to growing cash crops and buying forage so at least this year I should be able to get away with just about 3-4 months of the stuff. Going back about 6 months we had staff problems i.e we did'nt have any. Me and the wife were milking about 50 and then I was hand cutting(not tractor) jumbo twice aday for them, right in the middle of hot season as well, good way to lose weight !!

climate controlled barn

I've got one of these....yes you've guest it, it controled by the climate

[lannarebirth]

As a sideline a make wind generators ( I think there is a German guy somewhere around who's into solar panels) and build the occassional high-rise agricultural sprayer. Both are made totally from local components - you'd be suprized how easy it is to build a 5 - 10kw wind generator for a fraction of what they cost commercialy!

Very Interesting. I have about 100 rai near Chiang Mai. About 70% orchards, 30% rice paddies. The orchards are in the hills and currently have no access to electric power. I do have natural year round springs, but that available water is at the low end of the property. I have been examining the possibility of building a wind turbine or using task specific solar powe for pumping needs and providing electricity to on site workers homes. I'm an avid reader of this site: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpowerfront.shtml but am admittedly short in electrical engineering know how. I would love to hear what projects you have completed, or are planning, with respect to renewable energy.

Ken

[Maizefarmer]

RDC – you may not be from farming stock mate – but from what I have read on your postings – going back to even before I started adding my bit – you’ve got your act together very well………nothing beats hands on experience and self learning, which is where you are coming from.

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day, and then suddenly change over to grass – or vis-a-versus – the next day.

Cow’s digestive systems and the way they extract energy from food is a process that they developed and adapt to over time. The change over should be gradual. As an example, if you are dropping Pangular or Ruzzi and changing to Fang/Fang Mak, you should do it by replacing about 10% of the weight/volume feed at a time – and over a period of about 10 weeks keep withdrawing an extra 10% each week of the grass, and replace it with Fang/Fang Mak.

Can I help you – I’ll do my best RDC. But before that, let me see that I understand your situation properly first.

You have 60 rai and 70 head of stock. In theory you have enough land to grow sufficient forage for the whole year – whether ensiled or fresh (I ensile for the dry season only because of economics, not of direct feed cost, but because of fuel costs to sustain the same growth in the dry season – although I do irrigate- just enough to maintain growth). But that’s another story – the question is: why aren’t you using the land to its full potential. Is water a problem, is it that you don’t have a tractor/cutter.

I want to understand that first, then we can discuss a way around the problem, or what has to be done to get the most out of that land, because (subject to correction) I get the impression that your land is not supporting your livestock count – why.

When we’ve got through that, then we can look at what to grow, and how to manage it e.g. let one third grow for silage, cut it and ensile. Then rotate to another one third, let that grow and then cut it and ensile. Build up 3 different ensiled stocks for different time periods and separate each stock into 2 or 3 piles as a safety measure just in case one pile fails so you don’t get caught out with 1 month of no dry season feed.

How much water should you apply in winter?

How much should you mix dry hay with silage with fresh (assuming you are grown a little in dry season)

………… all questions to be worked through when I understand what is holding you back from growing forage on that land.

KEN – the biggest wind generator I have built in Thailand is 12 Kw. The problem is, it don’t matter how big your genie is - if you have no wind it’s not going to do the job. A wind/solar panel combination is the best way to go – but panels are sooooooo….. expensive in Thailand that their cost in nearly every case is just not justified – however long the period of time is over which you hope to recuperate the investment.

Most of the units I build are 5Kw units – which I can build for around Baht 100 000 including the rectifier circuit, but no the tower or the dc/ac power supply (the box of tricks that converts the stored power back to ac power for use in the house.

That is your most expensive component – which for a house you will need around 2Kw – 4Kw and it will cost you around USD 2 000 – 3 000, unless you can find one in a scrap yard, which I have done before on occasion. There is place coming out of Bangkok if you are heading up to the North East past Saraburi/Pak Chong/Korat that stocks scrapped hospital equipment – I have often found some pretty good dc/ac inverters/power supplies amongst that lot.

Its like keeping livestock – the windmill turbine is only one part in a number of parts required, and if any one is not up to mark, then the whole chain suffers. I have 2 x

5Kw units which supply all power for the house through a series of old submarine batteries I purchased in Australia about 10 years ago. I store a total of 6Kilo Amps (6000 amps at 96vdc).

The windmills produce 120Vac at 5Kw at 36kmph wind speed which gives them an rpm of around 230 from 3 x 9 metre blades.

On average though I’d say that they are producing around 3.0Kw – 3.3Kw, which relates to a wind speed of around 24kmph and an rpm of 138.

Cut-in speed is 19kmph at which point they will produce 2.0 kilowatts

I am fully booked until end of November, and can then take on 2 more orders for the rest of the year.

In any event, before I make or say anything:

- how much water do you need to pump, and how high do you need to pump it above the pump, and how far down is it below the pump. Then we can work out how many kilowatts you need.

- For your workers – do you know how many amps are required – I presume they are cooking on gas woks, and just using the power for radio/TV and lighting. Is that correct.

When I have that info then we can consider how much power you need and how much you need to store in batteries.

Do you have a dam to store the water in?

Tim

[z21rhd]

RDC –

KEN –

Tim -

Tim et al,

In total agreement with your assessment on the topic of supplying the most important element in cattle farming and production , ie. clean fresh water , a little more info :-

Just down the road from me a Thai farmer has designed and built his own Windmill pump watering system for livestock - comprising : the Windmill on a Tower, over a Well shaft , a Reciprocating pump, a Concrete reservoir , Piping to Drinking troughs. Just natural forces :- wind and gravity (and baht !) The whole outfit, is well put together from local materials . An installation of this type might only be considered as a capital investment part of a farm business plan, on the basis that it would pay for itself over period of say 5 years (not including the saving in terms of the physical work required in other forms of supplying water to livestock). In the dryer parts of Africa, Australia, Argentina and Brazil - these water windmills are part of the scenery on every cattle farm. I would love to see them all over Isaan.

An excellent factsheet on windmill water pumps is to be found on the undermentioned web-site - obviously it has been written for the US farmer - however, the science as such, would be no different when applied here :-

Alternative Livestock Watering Systems

Agriculture and Rural Factsheet

Written by: Robert P. Stone - Engineer, Soil/OMAFRA; Steve Clarke - Engineer, Rural Environment/OMAFRA

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engine...acts/04-027.htm

Suadaao

[RamdomChances]

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day, and then suddenly change over to grass – or vis-a-versus – the next day.

Yea I know that mate, the only thing I'd say from is if you are upgrading your forage i.e going from fang to decent fresh stuff the seems little reason to do it gradualy, as the is no drop in production.

Can I help you – I’ll do my best RDC. But before that, let me see that I understand your situation properly first.

You have 60 rai and 70 head of stock. In theory you have enough land to grow sufficient forage for the whole year – whether ensiled or fresh (I ensile for the dry season only because of economics, not of direct feed cost, but because of fuel costs to sustain the same growth in the dry season – although I do irrigate- just enough to maintain growth). But that’s another story – the question is: why aren’t you using the land to its full potential. Is water a problem, is it that you don’t have a tractor/cutter.

I want to understand that first, then we can discuss a way around the problem, or what has to be done to get the most out of that land, because (subject to correction) I get the impression that your land is not supporting your livestock count – why.

Actually I was asking weather you knew of any long term problems with fang mak (urea treated straw) as we started off getting excelent results from it but over time they just diminished down to straight "fang" levels. Saying that I'm more than happy to get some advice on the overall set up so I'll give you some background on the "why" bit. First the land, yes we have about 70 rai, but thats the whole plot, house, shop, and 15 rai that we give to my mother-in-law/brother-in -law to use, plus the different paddock's for the cows

the pic shows the main one with the feeding area on the right and the milking palour/extra feeding trough at the top

This was taken just after we open'd it but it has about 5 rai inside, which we now grow Ruzzi and I section off. Anyway the bottom line is I'm left with about 40 rai.

A bit of history

When I fisrt moved up here with the idea of starting the farm I was pretty unsure about the whole sheme, all but 7 rai of land was rented out and would not be avalible for another 2 years, so we built a smallish milking palour (10 stalls) holding area and some feed stations on what we had and just chucked some jumbo into the rest. I started out with about 10 cows to see if it was actually profitable, we were just hand cutting the jumbo. As the farm grew there was no way the couple of rai we has would support the cows, but we had aquired a lorry as well running mainly chicken food and I was looking for extra work for it. The province next to us there is a big co-op growing pangular, so we started doing runs every 2 day (its bailed but does'nt keep long) and selling /delivering it to the local farms as well, this proved quite succsessful, so much in fact that I was virtually geting my own pangular for free.

With the avalibliity of virtually unlimited cheap forage,we expanded more, the original farm was no longer big enough, but by this time the rest of the land was back in our hands. So we decided to build a new set up, the first year we had the land back I was'nt really interested in doing much with it as we were busy building the new farm and my forage was taken care of, so I just let the family use it.

The following year I was keen to try cash crops, using the cash to pay for forage, we had grown to about 100+ milkers by then. It was around this time the problems started, the co-op selling the grass was getting more orders than it could supply so basicaly started rationing the stuff, we were ok but could not increase our order, then all of a sudden they decided to basicaly double the price of the stuff from 1 bhat/kg to 2bhat/kg. I could'nt sell any at that price and paying the transport costs plus extra for the grass just for me was'nt viable, so with the already put over to cash crops we had to look for an alternative. Enter "Fang Mak". Initialy we just went over to fang while I had the fang mak silos built, milk production droped by about 40% but my costs were sugnificantly reduced as well, not enough to make up the differance but it helped. When the "mak"came online my production shot straight back up and remained there, nearly to the levels when we were feeding fresh grass (pangolar) but consiberably cheaper, problem sloved we thought, so continued with trying various cash crops looking for things we could sell and use the reminder for the cattle, had some sucsess with peanuts using the palnt as a suplement to the fang mak and selling the nuts. About 6 months after feeding the Mak the milk production started to drop off and continued doing so back down to the levels of straight fang, on top of this fang had nearly doubled in price due to fuel price increaces and quite frankly for the first time since opening we were making a loss. So we downsized and decided to switch to trying to grow enough forage for the cows.

Enter this year, we had some very early rain here about feb/march so decided to chuck some jumbo in and see what happened, it started slow but using some sprinklers we managed to get enough that we we cutting by april, we are still cutting the same stuff, but gradualy, instead of cutting and re-growing, we are cutting and re-ploughing and going over to russi, well in parts. Some we are going to continue with jumbo as the lower parts of the land get a bit wet for ruzzi. Milk production is back up and profitablity/head is better than it ever has (although with less cows).

So basicaly this year is the first year we have really looked at forage managment on a large scale (we tried a few rai of differant stuff previously) and the nessesity of getting something up and growing lead to the whole lot being put over to Jumbo. One of the problems at the moment is when it gets too wet we cant get on the land to cut so have had to graze the cows on some parts of it. Jumbo does'nt take well to grazing with little re-growth, so we are slowly changing to russi. I'm hoping to have enough until about dec/jan but there wont be enough for silage. I can keep about 10 rai gowing with sprinklers and am hoping that and with additional fan/fang mak will see me through the dry season, but overall at the moment I'd say our land utilisation was only at about 50%, some areas of the jumbo did'nt take too well as we planted so early, plus it all came at more or less the same time so some of what we are feeding is past it's best. I'm planning on switching more to ruzzi and strip grazing, with some Jumbo as a back up for cut'n'carry, if the ruzzi is sucsessful I'll probably switch over completly, or mabye grow jumbo for silage, the fang mak silos can easily be converted for silage making.

Any suggestions are more than welcome

Here's a link for treated and untreated rice straw, I've yet to find anything on the long term affect of treated straw.

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/550.HTM

Cheers RC

[z21rhd]

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day,

Any suggestions are more than welcome

Here's a link for treated and untreated rice straw, I've yet to find anything on the long term affect of treated straw.

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/550.HTM

Cheers RC

Tim and RC,

I spoke this morning with a friend who is a Professor in the Faculty of Agriculture . Ubon Rachathani University - his speciality is pasture research . I put the question :- "the long term effects of feeding cattle with treated rice straw" His response was that a build up of nitrates in dairy cattle was a probability. However, he asked that I wait until a colleague returned to the University at the end of next week, as this scientist was up to speed on the subject. I have another friend at Khon Kaen University who is researching the utilization of other agricultural byproducts to supplement treated fang. He was not available today. I will try and speak to him asap. Once I get definitive information I will arrange to send it email to you both.

[Maizefarmer]

RDC – I want to chew on what you’ve said for a day or 2 before replying.

In over simplistic terms all I know about Fang/Fang Mak is that a lot of the problems in using it lie beyond the livestock farmers control: they are down to limited digestability of the stuff and the huge variations in its quality.

Studies done on Fang/Fang Mak done in Vietnam are different to those done in Sri Lanka and Thailand – as the products in all 3 places are different to start with. The Chinese have been incredibly successful with feeding it to livestock, but you need to bare to mind that the average Chinese rice paddy is producing 2 to 3 times as much as a Thai rice paddy – which in its self says a lot about the quality of the product in the first place.

I am no expert on the stuff – tried it once and the milkers rioted.

I’ll come back to you in a day or so with my take on the situation – but interesting to see your efforts with Ruzzi – which at the end of the day has proved consistently to my best option(along with maize).

Have been on the tractor most of today – got all the slurry onto the fields so the place has a lovely aroma to it for the next 48 hours – off to bed…………

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Ok cheers both, any input would be appreciated.

z21, that was the only explanation I could come up with but I was only guesing.

MF, I'm not really worried about straight "fang" I know most of the pro's and con's with it and it's not something we are keen to use if at all possible.

For those that don't know "Fang" rice straw

Pro's, about the cheapest forage you can buy, avalible in hugh quantities, keeps well, good source of fibre

Con's, High silicon content is hard to digest, its fairly unplatable, low in everything (protien, vitiamins ect think of something slightly better than a cardboard box), can be difficult to get hold of at some times of the year, you have to buy in bulk to get a good price.

It can be treated with:-

Urea (what we are talking about) and is called fang mak, this makes it more palatable (mine were probably eating about 20-30% more of the suff than straight fang), it's easier to digest and it up's the protien to something like 7-8% (depending on where you read, I never got mine checked)

Molasis, makes it more palatable and is a popular option supposed to add to the carb intake as well.

Salt water, just sprinkled over it with a watering can, just makes it more palatable (oh by palatable I mean the cows like to eat it)

Fang is usually just used for maintance, if you are looking for weight gain, or milk, it's not very good, if possible give fresh forag or silage, fang is used by many farms but if you are doing beef you will need a bigger percentage of some form of concentrate to put weight on (eating into your profits)

MF do you just grow the Maize for silage, we could probaly only get one crop of maize in here due to its water requirments, although if you cutting while still fairly young I suppose you might get two.Only seen it grown as a cash crop, but know that they do use it a lot back home for cattle feed. My Brother-in-law does maize then sunflower, which is one of the most popular combinations here.

Once again thanks guy's RC

[Issangeorge]

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day,

Any suggestions are more than welcome

Here's a link for treated and untreated rice straw, I've yet to find anything on the long term affect of treated straw.

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/550.HTM

Cheers RC

Tim and RC,

I spoke this morning with a friend who is a Professor in the Faculty of Agriculture . Ubon Rachathani University - his speciality is pasture research . I put the question :- "the long term effects of feeding cattle with treated rice straw" His response was that a build up of nitrates in dairy cattle was a probability. However, he asked that I wait until a colleague returned to the University at the end of next week, as this scientist was up to speed on the subject. I have another friend at Khon Kaen University who is researching the utilization of other agricultural byproducts to supplement treated fang. He was not available today. I will try and speak to him asap. Once I get definitive information I will arrange to send it email to you both.

z21RHD

Please post your reply on the board we are all interested. Guys I must praise all of you, of all the farming posts I have read this one is the most informative. I have one question does anyone know where I could take a soil sample to find out what is best to grow on my land? Okay make that two questions does any one know if their is a dairey co-op near the south west corner of Kalasin Province. Thanks Issangeorge.

[Maizefarmer]

Maize – 2 crops a year, harvested fully grown: the first at the start of the rainy season and the second when the monsoon switches over from rainy to dry

Most of the second crop is ensiled and then mixed with fresh grass which is grown throughout the year at feed time. I can grow a 3rd crop but the extra fuel costs for irrigation, although still profitable, reduce net income – on balance, not worth it.

Grass Ruzzi- First cut after 60 days, and then thereafter roughly every 30/35 days – with increasing fertiliser addition at each cut (Nitrogen) to the point that cost/benefit outweighs growth and nitrogen input – at which point the field is ploughed up and reseeded, on average every 36 months. I might put the animals out to pasture for a month or so right at the end – they’re pretty good at pulling the roots up of the old grass and it save the cost of having to spread the slurry.

Give me a day or to to go through some old records on my trials with other grasses. I f I am going to give you some “advise” I am going to make sure its ###### spot on and correct.

Don’t do anything yet but I think a solution could lie with Napier, or Guinea and/or Ruzzi grass(es)

The issue about growing them successfully (and successfully is in capital letters), is that all of them have very different water requirements, fertilizer requirements and soil requirements, the last of which (i.e. soil requirement) can be manipulated by way of fertilizer regime to a large degree (at least enough for successful cultivation).

The only thing common to all 3, assuming no water problem, is that you/we have a climate which is suitable for all of them, and therefore all of them are potentially viable COMPLETE feed solutions for Thai conditions. And when I say COMPLETE I mean that all the above can provide 9-10 MJ/kg DM Metabolic Energy @16-17% protein – no, I joke not. In effect, that has the potential to knock 75% + off your concentrate costs. I palatable – which they all are – the cows will lap it up in huge quantities, which will stimulate water intake and Bingo, big improvement in milk yield.

In very broad terms their respective soil requirements are as follows:

Napier: will need all your manure/slurry, will need regular fertilizer (Nitrogen and Phosphorus), will need urea and will need loads of water year round. As a feed it has one distinct advantage – the net phosphate output from the cow in urine and faeces – if slurried and returned to the field is + (i.e. providing all + phos needs for the plant to grow. I think it is something like 33% input to the soil versus something like 26% that the plant takes out when growing – hence the need to rotate every 3 or 4 years, and this “technique” if you can get it down to a fine point by way of careful crop choice can act as “self fertilization” – using different crops at different times for their respective benefits). Best I stop at this point…………… will cover all this later, but I I hope it makes the point, as these are issues which the average small Thai dairy farmer just does not consider when selecting and managing forage grasses and then wonders why he’s stuck with high concentrate costs.

Ruzzi: comparatively less water, but more nitrogen required. Harvested at shorter intervals. Comparatively higher DM but reduced Crude Protein (I,m sure I ‘m right on this last point – but until I have had time to go through my records I stand to be corrected).

Guinea: Purple variety – not Blue variety……….I need to check this one out, I just can’t remember where it fits in comparatively to the others.

……………and all should be wilted for 24 hrs after been cut before been fed (loads of water in the rumen reduce a “milker’s” appetite – another thing a lot of Thia’s don’t do).

RDC – do you have any info on your soil type or have you ever had a soil test. Share with me as much as you can please, then we can put all this “waffle” into a real life context.

Time to get some work done……….

Catch up with you later.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Ok cheers mate

I've never botherd, getting the soil checked, I'll try and get it sorted outtoday. I know where to get it done but know one has any idea how long it will take.

IssanGeorge, Soil checking is avalible everywhere, I can't remember the name of the gov office you get it done in (no one here remembers either) but I will get back to you. As for co-ops you really need to ask localy also you need to find out if they have and vacancies, some are full.

Tim a few points/a bit more info for you.

My land is rolling and on a slope, the lower parts become quite water logged in the rainy season, but not flooded, The top half tends to be redish, small stones, while the bottom soft and balck. We've grown maize, sunflower, peanuts.sucsessfully on both types

Idealy I'm looking for something to strip graze. I know cut'n'carry is more efficiant but I only have a 20 hp 2wd kubuta and no cutter for it. We have tried a "chop" on the back of it previously but unless its optimal conditions i.e nice and dry it really struggles.

I'm happy to swap a couple of % of CP for something that has less water requirments (in the assumption that it will last better in the dry season?? or respond better to sprinklers) To me Ruzzi fit's the bill very well but I'll defer your your supirior knowlage on the subject. I probably have'nt enough land or equipment for a "perfect solution" so it just a case of finding the best fit. I'm pretty poor on my knowlage of fertilisers, basicaly just relying on the "what everyone else does" approch.

Any idea what "napier" grass is in Thai ?a few people have mentioned "Yaa kun yippun" to me any one know what that is, it literaly translates to "Hairy Japanese Grass"(it's not hairy though ) The only thing I can come up with is this Japanese millet http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/81.HTM which on paper at least would seem to fit the bill

RC

[teletiger]

R.C. I think you'll find that napier grass is also known as Elephant grass. Take a peek here

http://www.angrin.tlri.gov.tw/english/grin.../purpureum.html

regards

[RamdomChances]

TT yea, thanks, I think you are right. Oddly "yaa jumbo" which you would think could be Elephant grass is'nt, it's a forage sorgham

[teletiger]

Maybe this site is more detailed. http://www.tropicalgrasslands.asn.au/pastures/default.htm

regards

[chownah]

Heres a good one too:

Elephant or elefante grass, Napier grass, gigante (Costa Rica), mfufu (Africa).

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/DATA/PF000301.HTM

I think that RandomChances sent me to this site a long time ago to look for some other fodder plant.....its a grassland plant index where you can look for a plant by either its common name, genus, or latin name.

[Maizefarmer]

– today was not my day – I’m only just getting to bed now (I’m normally in bed by 6:30 – 7:30pm).

So I’ll catch up with all on Saturday…………………….the joys of farming, that is if you want to work 24/7/365………….