Farming In Isaan

[z21rhd]

Any idea what "napier" grass is in Thai ?a few people have mentioned "Yaa kun yippun" to me any one know what that is, it literaly translates to "Hairy Japanese Grass"(it's not hairy though ) The only thing I can come up with is this Japanese millet http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/81.HTM which on paper at least would seem to fit the bill

RC

Hi RC, I have got 3 different Thai names for Napier , once I settle on one that fits the best I'll send

- If I can spell it!

In the mean time here is the URL for a very practical information fact sheet on Napier.

http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forage...m_purpureum.htm

[bina]

can someone give the thai transliteration and in thai for solar energy etc... i sit and read this stuff out to my boyfriend but electricity etc gets me stumped ; for the windmill i just showed pics ;

also the names of the grasses written in thai etc

boyfriend is totally 'bannork' but likes learning; so we sit here in israel looking in internet and planning.... so info in thai/eng is best

info korat specific please if possible

bina

[Maizefarmer]

Solar Energy in Thai is “ พลังงาน แสงอาทิตย์ “, - pronounced “Plaang Ngaan Sean Atit”.

It’s made up from the words Energy (พลังงาน) & Sun-light (แสงอาทิตย์).

There are 3 variations for the word in Thai – actually 4, if your boyfriend is from the “deep South” down by the Malaysian border, he may only know it in Hokkien – and I wouldn’t have a clue what it is then, but other wise, so long as this forum can carry Thai alphabetic symbols, it’s more or less as written above – which he should recognise, immaterial of which part of the country he’s from.

While I wait for RDC to come back to me with some soil info, if anyone wants to take up the subject or use the thread to ask a question or add comment, I have a ton of work to do – so by all means go ahead anyone, feel free to add whatever comment you wish.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

While I wait for RDC to come back to me with some soil info, if anyone wants to take up the subject or use the thread to ask a question or add comment, I have a ton of work to do – so by all means go ahead anyone, feel free to add whatever comment you wish.

Tim

Hmm, I would'nt hold your breath on that mate, did'nt manage to get it done then and been having a few of "those day's" myself. The wife's had to go down to BKK and won't be back until tomorrow, so that would be the earliest then we would have to wait for the results.

I'm pretty much commited this year to ruzzi/jumbo combination about a 70/30 split. We are gradualy re-ploughing and seeding at the moment as there's only a couple of months of rainy season left. Next year as long as the ruzzi is sucsessful (I've had it outgrown by local grass before but that was probably down to me) then the jumbo will go or we'll grow it for silage. We are still sticking some jumbo in as it's ready to eat in a month and if hand cut I'll get at least one more crop out of it before the end of rainy season, probably two or three as it still grows into the dry season.

So any "quick'n'dirty" advice would be fine. I'm intrested in fertiliser requirments but understand that it will have a lot to do with soil conditions.

I'm also intrested in this "yaa kon yippun" a few people have told me it's very good (Sorry guy's I knew it was'nt Napier but I'm still not sure what exactly it is)

Thanks for the links guy's, yes Chownah I think I did originaly send that one to you. Z21 if you've got anything on the Thai name for it just stick it in dont worry about the spelling I'll take it from there, good link by the way I did'nt have that one, better pics than some of the others. Did anyone get back to you on the "nitrate" build up issue?

Yaa jumbo is a type of forage Sorghum also can be called Chow Fang Wan (Sweet sorghum), theres a few different varities, al lot of stuff on the net mentions problems with prussic acid, but it's used extensivly here. I don't know about you lot but I always have problems converting genral thai names for stuff, into, comman westen names, of latin.

Here's a pic of "jumbo"

It's intresting that they have planted it in rows, we usualy just hand spread ours but were talking about doing it this way recently. If you have to hand cut, the size of it make's it much easier and as long as it's not too old the cows will eat the lot stems and all, If you have a shreader it's even better

RC

Edited August 7, 2006 by RamdomChances

[chownah]

RandomChances,

I'm interested in your wet season tilling. Do you have to wait for a few days without rain before you plow so the soil won't be too wet? Up here in the north its almost impossible till the soil into a nice seed bed because the dirt is too wet. Some of the local farmers say to just plant in the wet soil and to use extra seed to make up for bad germination....most of these farmers only grow rice so I'm a bit skeptical of their advice. What's your experience with wet season tilling and planting?

Chownah

[bannork]

I've found that ruzzia doesn't like waterlogged land, does anyone have any experience with Brachiaria humidicola, Rendle, and what it would be called in Thai?

Thanks for all the information lately from everyone.

[bina]

RC beware nitrate poisoning; i inadvertantly poisened a herd of male wild goats (ibex nubia)... they would graze on a specific plant (fortunately not found in thailand so dont worry) , so i hand cut and gave them much more to eat... within two days, almost all the males (no females) had died slowly...

it turns out that this plant during certain seasons has a build up of nitrates (during our summer, drought season), and when eaten green, is bitter, and therefore, the animals graze but dont ingest in large quantities BUT

when the leaves dried out, the bitterness level is reduced so the animals would eat more, therefore ingesting more of the nitrates, and the males for some reason are more sensitive then females.... i cant remember all details (ten years ago at least) but the bodies were sent to the large agrivet hospital for poison analysis and this was their answer

conclusion: many plants are good for green grazing but not in large qualtities, and not as dry feed (as more is ingested and toxic build up is increased)and /or not for long term forage... and vise versa... and some species of grazing animals are more sensitive to others to the various levels of poisons, nutrients etc found int he forage...

prussiac acid is an other poison on the list, found in many DRY plants in higher content: cherry tree branches, etc.... NOT RECOMMENDED FOR GRAZING ANIMALS TO EAT as more than incidental fodder (i.e. they themselves graze and eat small quantities)

[RamdomChances]

Chownah

Yes you have to wait a for a few days of dry weather. Not much different from normal start of rainy season planting. Let it rain first, dry it out a bit then plough

Bannork

Yes I've heard the same thing myself

Bina

I was talking about nitrate build up giving fang mak, as you treat it with urea (basicaly nitrogenAI've found no warings on the internet about long term use of the stuff.

The prussic acid bit is I admit confusing me as every website says that forage sorgham is high in prussic acid, but it's used extensivly and we've never had any problems with it, nor have I heard of anyone else having any

[chownah]

RandomChances,

Here's a link that talks about sorghum being a source of nitrates in cattle feed...I thought you 'd be interested in that.....it also talks about prussic acid...also in sorghum.

http://www.oznet.k-state.edu/library/crpsl2/MF1018.PDF

I no little about this but it seems to me from the article that nitrate intake and prussic acid intake have similar effects and they both act on the hemaglobin in the blood so I'm wondering if maybe there could be a cummulative effect going on....I really don't know much about this so this is only a wild a55 guess on my part.

Also, in regards to nitrate in fang mak....it was my understanding from having read some stuff on the internet that when you treat rice straw with urea that the urea gets converted to ammonia....if this is correct then I guess there would not be any nitrate problem....is there such a thing as an ammonia problem? Does your fang mak smell a bit like ammonia?

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

Thanks for the link Chownah.

Also, in regards to nitrate in fang mak....it was my understanding from having read some stuff on the internet that when you treat rice straw with urea that the urea gets converted to ammonia....if this is correct then I guess there would not be any nitrate problem....is there such a thing as an ammonia problem? Does your fang mak smell a bit like ammonia?

Yes thats right about the amonia. I was just thinking urea=nitrogen=nitrates. The fang mak smells of straw and pee so yes I suppose it does smell of ammonia. As to there being an "amonia" problem I just dont know. I'd like to be able to feed it for about 3-4 months this year, to cover the shortfall, although at least I will have some fresh as well. Last year we did'nt have a problem until about 6 months after. Hopefuly the year after I can replace it complatly with home produced silage

[Maizefarmer]

The incidence of crop poisoning in Thailand is in reality very rare.

It’s a “freak” occurance which requires a number of environmental conditions and growth stages all to meet up & coincide just when the crop is been fed to your animals. And even when those conditions do exist, as a potential risk to cattle it can by and large be eliminated by cutting the crop high enough off the ground – leaving as much of the hard stem in the ground as you can - where most “nasties” usually accumulate – and also avoiding a lot of the weeds that grow down there.

………… in the case of “poison” silage, the taste is usually so off that your cattle will reject it if healthy, you’ll find your herdsman wont be feeling well (because of handling the stuff).

As to how much a healthy cow would have to consume before keeling over – I wouldn’t have a clue, buts it’s going to be a good few kg’s before they start complaining.

How many Thai farmers or vets would be able to recognise the symptoms ? – not many , I certainly don’t think I would before it reached a real serious problem.

AMMONIA SMELL – a good sign actually. It means loads of lactic acid bacteria exist and are breaking down the natural sugars of the plant. And that in turn reduces the formation of pockets of fungus and mold.

The easy practical way to monitor stored crops (silage or otherwise) if to be used as a feed, and if you are concerned about any poisonous compounds developing, is to monitor just one parameter. PH.

For Grass feeds and forages in my experience (i.e. against the background of Thai conditions), go for a PH of 4.5. For corn Silages go for a PH of 4.0 – and for a mixed silage anything between the 2 is great.

But don’t be concerned if you PH is high (5 or 5.5), as that’s still quite safe, and as the natural tendency is for it to drop over time (e.g. if stored as a silage), just wait a little longer – if you’ve cut it and stored it properly, no matter what the mix is, the PH will drop over time, and when it hits 5 of below, that’s a great time to start feeding it to cattle.

DIY PH TESTING

Get round to the local hospital and get some PH test papers – the little strips with different colors on them (and you’ll need the ref.chart as well).

Get some plant matter from the plant in question and crush it up in a CLEAN glass container with a glass rod, spoon or something made of glass. Do not touch contents with your grubby hands.

Mix with DE IONISED WATER or STERILE WATER (from same hospital if possible – and make sure they don’t give you saline or dextrose solution!!).

You want about equal parts in volume.

Mix the whole lot up thoroughly, and allow to settle for about 30 minutes.

Take the test strip, stick it in for about 30secs – 1min, and take out and now compare with the chart.

That is a fair accurate PH test – I use it all the time so I no it works. Its great because you can do it out in the field with fresh crops straight away and not have to worry about how any time delay has effected the accuracy of your results.

For soil exactly as above but use soil, not plant matter.

The key to achieving accuracy here is to ensure what whatever use mix it all up in is not going to affect the PH.

Dont worry yourselves about Nitrite or Acid base posining from crops - in theory possible, in practise lot of of things have to happen for it to manifest its self as a problem. It really is very rare.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[JungleBiker]

Since this post seems to be attracting all the cattle farmers, I’d just like to ask a few quick questions...

(1) When cattle are sold in Thailand, are they sold by weight and if so where are the scales that are used to weigh them (at the cattle market or where?). Also, how is the price per kilogram decided (by simpe negotiation or is their some sort of reference price listed somewhere?)

(2) Also when selling cattle - is there any paper work associated with the transactions & livestock movements other than perhaps a receipt for the money paid? Here in Laos if a farmer upcountry wanted to send an animal down to Vientiane he would have to get 7 different documents form various government authorities.

Thanks!

[Nawtilus]

What is the best cattle available in Thaialnd for Beef ?

I cannot really stomach the thought of these dairy cows as beef cattle, my god.

And someone said the native los cow that looks jersey/brahman is of little use for dairy or beef, but I presume it is what we eat in many Thai beef dishes where the pure meat and tenderness are not a priority.

Would also be interested to hear what the deal is with 'water rights' here if and how they exist, particulalry to river systems as well as the klongs and rice irrigation channels.

[Maizefarmer]

No such thing as a "best cattle in Thailand for beef" (or dairy for that matter).

It will come down to what animal a farmer has chosen to invest in and how he has managed that animal which wil ldetermine the quality of the meat that comes from it.

I know of farmers who have animals from good stock but which are not kept well, and hence the meat is not what it should be, and I know of farmers who have animals of no particular stock, but which are well looked after, and the lcoals line up when they hear one is due for the chopping board. And then you buy from the market butcher - and untill you cook it you won't know what you are getting.

But if I was to generalise, I would say that if you took 100 animals from the Pak Chong/Muak Lek area and compared them to 100 animals from Loei or Kalasin (assuming both had been maintaine don a similar diet), the chances are the better of the 2 is going to be one of the animals that came from Pak Chong/Muak Lek.

ASfar as exactlywhat type of cow it is - well, your guess is as good as mine, becuase other than been able to make a general classification based on physical appearance, you cannot tell exactly what you have in the absense of any records/history.

Brahma and Sahiwal (and mixes thereof) make pretty decent beef animals - but it aint going to be stamped on the package, and unless you quize the butcher in the market (who may or may not know) - the proof will be in the eating.

But quite frankly - could you tell if you were eating beef from one type or another? I couldn't with the exception perhaps if its Buffalo and its in a dish I am familar with.

In summary - so maaaany variables on that question - its a tough one.

Does anyone know where MacDonalds in Thailand gets it beef from - I'm told some is local and some is imported frozen from Singapore?

AS for the paperwork associated with livestock in Laos - nightmarish. Only 7 pieces of paper!

It's all about stats and health. Laos has a huge problem with Foot & Mouth, and the way they control it (well, try to) is by monitoring the movement of livestock. Actually, Europe is no different - you can't just load a truck up with livestock and mve them from one province to the next, let alone from one side of an EY country ot the next. there is a load of documentation, but the system is well managed and integrated and largely automtaed by way of pc based recod keeping. Not so in Laos - its all about running around from one office to the other to get stamps and signatures - whole of Asia is like that.

Whats the situation with moving a truck load of pigs cross country in Laos - more paperwork?

And last but not least - smuggling livestock and meat is a big time occupation in Laos - both into the country from Thaialnd and out of it to Thailand. A lot of the meat in Loei is smuggeled in cheaply from Laos with no health certificate or controls - and a lot of the pork comes from F&M infected animals.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

(1) When cattle are sold in Thailand, are they sold by weight and if so where are the scales that are used to weigh them (at the cattle market or where?). Also, how is the price per kilogram decided (by simpe negotiation or is their some sort of reference price listed somewhere?)

I'm not really into beef, so I wont be suprised if someone contradicts me on this. Most markets there is'nt a scales beef being bought on sight. Slaughter houses have scales and this is where the price/kg comes from. You might get a better price for certain types of cattle. You can by tape measures that go around the cow to give you an indication of the weight. Most "market" trade seems to be people selling to the "feedlot" guys i.e selling 12-14 month cows for fattening up or just inter farm trading. At least thats what a friend of mine that's a pretty heavy cow trader told me. Most of the guys at the markets will of been doing this since they were kid's mabye helping out thier father or something, they are'nt usually far out on their valueation.

Also when selling cattle - is there any paper work associated with the transactions & livestock movements other than perhaps a receipt for the money paid?

Yea you get a Ba Wat (sp) which is supposed to have the history of the cow ect on it (oh thats for dairy). In reality they are often not filled out properly, if at all, although from bigger well managed farms they are.Stranglely though I've never had a recipt The gov do put travel restrictions on cattle sometimes, usually with a F+M outbreak. Maizefarmer, did'nt Korat have restrictions about a year-18 month ago ?

I cannot really stomach the thought of these dairy cows as beef cattle, my god.

a cow is a cow mate, we sell some of our non-productive ones off for beef

And someone said the native los cow that looks jersey/brahman is of little use for dairy or beef

I think what was meant was it had limited milk production and was too small for beef,I don't really know anything about the breed though. The water bit's I could'nt tell you

[Maizefarmer]

RDC is right

There are essentially two systems in operation: one is very formal and well regulated/organised, the other is not.

The regulated option (if done properly) starts right at the birth of the animal. it is tagged and records are kept in accordance with all the rules & regs (i.e. date of birth, where it is kept, name of afrm, health history and what not...) Come slaughter time, that animal has a higher value in theory. It will go to a BEV abatoir (Beef Export Verification Abbatoir) and as it has been tracked through life, its meat will qaulify for export, or be sent to Big C, Central, Lotus/Tesco ... and other big name stores.

The other side of the coin, and this accounts for just about all meat not in the above catorgory, is the "local market". Meat that the average Thai buys across the counter from his local market. That will be most likely slaughtered at a local small abbatoir.. It will be an animal from a small farm or "farmer" who has a few cows on the side. But in using the word small I should add that in overall qauntity it accounts for the largest part of the Thai fresh meat market.

In both cases wieght is the basis to the value of the cow. In the first case, the animal will be weighed. In my case the inspector comes round and weighs at the farm within 48 hours of the animal packing its bags to leave, and the price agreed is the price we get. that price is based on the going market rate for that point in time, which is collated from Agricultural Department Livestock records, but its a market set price not a Government set price.

At open air auctions the traders are a wily and very shrewd bunch of guys - from experiance they will know the wieght of a animal just by looking at it - no need for scales for these guys. Its a wild place with a culture and way of doing business that is best left to the experianced!!

Reg papers and offical paperwork here is not the order of the day - as its all cash that the Revenue department see's little of. You could by an animal that is putting on a good show only to drop when it gets to its new home, but you could also buy an absolute stunner. Its like a 2nd hand car - caveat emptor!

Tim

[teletiger]

We sell our beef bulls by the kilo. We meet the truck at the local Sahagorn (where farmers take their corn) and weigh the truck, then back to the Sahagorn with the loaded truck. At the moment we get 45/47 Baht per kilo, the higher figure for heavier cattle. These are finished cattle weighing 500+ kilos.

One big problem with buying beef in Thailand is that it is treated the same as pork, ie. butchered, sold and eaten on the same day. Beef needs to be aged. 7 days absolute minimum. 21/28 days to be at it's best. Even an Angus will eat like leather on the day it's butchered.

Another reason for tough beef in Thailand is the slaughtering method. Stressing cattle fills their muscles with lactic acid and if killed in this state the lactic acid stays there. Here they use sledge hammers after first dragging the animal to a post and head tying it, all in full view of the herd.

Papers for beef cattle are pretty much unheard of. You will need permits to move cattle inter-province.

There is a huge cattle market near Si Kew in Korat. It starts tuesday afternoon and goes through the night into wednsday, also friday afternoon into saturday. Bring your own light and you buy them off the back of a truck. Very impractical, but it avoids the BiB on the roads. Between 7,000/10,000 cattle for sale.

Regards

[RamdomChances]

MF/TT I'm intrested in the fact that you basicaly sell from the farm. How is that arranged, do you have a contract with an Abbatoir ( I'm glad someone put that in cos I did'nt have a clue how to spell it ) or is it local agents. If you take the meat yourself would you get a better price. The guy I know deals direct with the abbatoir, but he's got about 3, 10 wheelers and a few smaller lorrys and buys/sells all the time. He's usually got a stock of about 80-100 and is trying to get planning permission to open his own abbatoir.

He recons at the big markets to get there the night before it opens, a lot of good trading goes on through the night on the side of the road. "Sahagorn" is co-operative for those that did'nt know, it's where we sell our milk as well, I think they must all have weigh bridges ours does as well.

One of the big problems IMO is that if a falang want to get into beef and buy/sell at the markets, then he's up against some very shrewd operators, it's not a case of ripping the falang off. These guy's will always try and get the best price wether you Thai/Falang or from Mars. Probably trying to get into higher quality beef and selling from the farm would be a better optian. Where do you buy your "good quality" beef stock from ?

[lannarebirth]

KEN – the biggest wind generator I have built in Thailand is 12 Kw. The problem is, it don’t matter how big your genie is - if you have no wind it’s not going to do the job. A wind/solar panel combination is the best way to go – but panels are sooooooo….. expensive in Thailand that their cost in nearly every case is just not justified – however long the period of time is over which you hope to recuperate the investment.

Most of the units I build are 5Kw units – which I can build for around Baht 100 000 including the rectifier circuit, but no the tower or the dc/ac power supply (the box of tricks that converts the stored power back to ac power for use in the house.

That is your most expensive component – which for a house you will need around 2Kw – 4Kw and it will cost you around USD 2 000 – 3 000, unless you can find one in a scrap yard, which I have done before on occasion. There is place coming out of Bangkok if you are heading up to the North East past Saraburi/Pak Chong/Korat that stocks scrapped hospital equipment – I have often found some pretty good dc/ac inverters/power supplies amongst that lot.

Its like keeping livestock – the windmill turbine is only one part in a number of parts required, and if any one is not up to mark, then the whole chain suffers. I have 2 x

5Kw units which supply all power for the house through a series of old submarine batteries I purchased in Australia about 10 years ago. I store a total of 6Kilo Amps (6000 amps at 96vdc).

The windmills produce 120Vac at 5Kw at 36kmph wind speed which gives them an rpm of around 230 from 3 x 9 metre blades.

On average though I’d say that they are producing around 3.0Kw – 3.3Kw, which relates to a wind speed of around 24kmph and an rpm of 138.

Cut-in speed is 19kmph at which point they will produce 2.0 kilowatts

I am fully booked until end of November, and can then take on 2 more orders for the rest of the year.

In any event, before I make or say anything:

- how much water do you need to pump, and how high do you need to pump it above the pump, and how far down is it below the pump. Then we can work out how many kilowatts you need.

- For your workers – do you know how many amps are required – I presume they are cooking on gas woks, and just using the power for radio/TV and lighting. Is that correct.

When I have that info then we can consider how much power you need and how much you need to store in batteries.

Do you have a dam to store the water in?

Tim

Hi Tim,

Very interesting comments. I apologize for my slow response. I had a birthday and a short trip to Burma since we last spoke.

It is likely I was premature in posting these RE questions to you. The fact is the 31 rai piece I have for rice has 300 meters of river frontage, nearly the same distance at the rear of land of canal and a borehole with electricity available. So no RE needed there.

The next piece I have is 70 rai (actually 3 contiguous pieces) in the foothills near Chiang Mai. I am rehabilitating this land from it being deforested "degraded" land to orchards. I would prefer to make it a forest again but the giovernment won't allow that. Hence I'm stuck growing orchards I don't really want and the market doesn't really need. The least of my concerns are the orchards, save for their ability to root and hold earth, minimizing erosion. My main concern is the rehabilitation of the land. To this end I utilize "check dams" : http://www.forest.go.th/watershed/English/...vities/dem.html

in any area of heavy seasonal water flow, and Vetiver or "King's Grass" for planting on sloped areas: http://www.pttplc.com/en/ptt_core.asp?page=cr_so_vg. . Mechanized machinery is not allowed to be used on this particular plot of land, so progress is slow. I mark progress by seasons and sometimes years. It is slow, but it is perceptible and increasing more rapidly.

It is on this land that I have the 2 natural springs at the low end of the land. These springs are at ground level. The need is to pump these ground level pools of water up approximately 25-35 meters over about a 450 meter run. Since both these pools are on the low end of the land, they sit in "bowls" of the land and it is not suitable for any wind generation/pumping site. The very top of the land is a hill peak and is very good for wind, but I don't have water there. I could make a borehole there I suppose, together with a large tank. If I did, all other areas of the land could be irrigated through a gravity feed. For aboubt 200,000 baht I could place a 14' diameter turbine x 45' tall tower up there acting as a well pump. I would still have to pay for the boring in addition to that. At that price I was leaning toward solar panels, as I'd have more flexibility in their use, and eventually electricity WILL come to this site and the wind pump will become obsolete.

Uh oh, I'm being called away. I'll post the rest when I get back. Thanks for your forbearance.

Ken

[Maizefarmer]

Hi Ken

I'll catch up with the subject later tonight (i.e. about 2am tomorrow) - need to get some sleep - have had none at all sicne I got up yesterday at 2:30am.

Tim

[lannarebirth]

Hi Ken

I'll catch up with the subject later tonight (i.e. about 2am tomorrow) - need to get some sleep - have had none at all sicne I got up yesterday at 2:30am.

Tim

Good morning Tim,

I hope you had a good rest.

Anyway, I was called away suddenly to meet the installer for a solar panel and converter/controller/battery out at my land. We'd been on the list to receive 2 of these and we've been missing each other each time he was in the area. It's for the new house that we built for our workers to live in. Here's a picture of it:

http://www.palangthai.org/docs/SHSReport6June06.doc

Pretty basic, but I'm hoping to run 2 wires off of it with switches. One to the battery/controller and the other to a 12volt pump to handle filling a tank and irrigation on the lower end of one piece of land. It's a short term solution, but t's a free government program for about 25,000 baht of hardware, so what the heck. I think it's much too weak to run a pump with sufficient head to get to top of land, but it takes care of a need.

I have another piece of land where I'll be building a home next year that's quite nearby. It's 12rai with about 100meters of creek frontage, culminating at a waterfall. It has electricity available, but I'd like to incorporate as much RE sources as I can. Perhaps a small hydro mill and a wind turbine and a few solar panels for specific tasks. I think I WILL hook to grid, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be best off sending output back to grid, rather than storing and managing it myself. Do you know if Thailand has such a program, whereby they must buy any RE produced? I'd guess there's no subsidy, but I just don't know. Do you happen to know? The wind turbines you build; are they stator/alternator type, or motor conversion type?

Also, while I have you here. Last year I planted a lot of pasture grass on the hillside in the hopes of minimizing erosion. The guy at the sustainable farming place suggested Guinea Grass and I planted it. Well, it came in very nice, but it's rather clumpy. Lots of vegetation, but not much surface area of the earth is rooted. I don't think it's the grass I want. I need something with many more blades and greater/wider root proliferation. Something more like a lawn would be, but without worrying about constant maintenance. Any suggestions? While the local farmers love grazing on this (I let them) it doesn't seem to be what I'm looking for.

Thanks for any response.

Ken

[Maizefarmer]

Hi Ken

I have seen the report – it makes interesting reading. Truth be known, the basic quality of the components is fine – it’s the way they have been put together and have then been maintained by users.

Its clear the guys doing the soldering had limited knowledge on reading schematics, and so the same mistakes were repeated in batches – hence you find a lot of untis in the same district with the same fault.

The other side is this – many of the users did/do not understand that you just can’t run the system till its death – you have to let the batteries charge up – and really, the inverters should not be drawing current from the batteries if the amperage runs too low.

My long term concern – and this will only be known in time – is just how good the panels are. They look okay, but I wonder if they will be working in 10 – 15 years time, which good panels will be.

It is/was I’m afraid a project that was full of good intention but which was not implemented properly – as is so oftent he case with public works projects in Thailand.

Still, none of the problems apparent are problems that cannot be overcome.

Anyway to your specific questions:

1) I think you is going to have problems with your water pump. You will need a pump that can pump at least 3.5 – 4bar pressure. Now in theory you can do that with 1 watt of power, but the volume which pumped will be a trickle – so pointless. I think you are going to struggle with one panel to get sufficient volume moved. It is not the way I would go about it. I need to know how much water you need to pump per day. From that, with the height info you have provided I can tell you exactly how many watts you require and exactly what pump you will need to get and how long you will have to run it – and from that we can calculate exactly how much power needs to be generated and stored. Get back to me on that please.

2) Sending power back to the grid? Knock the idea on the head – there is no system in place which will offer you any benefit or return for that at the moment in Thailand.

3) The turbines I build I build from scratch – I even wind the coils for the alternators/stators my self. You can have either type. The best for Thai conditions are the TAURUS design types – which have an odd number of coils in a circular arrangement around a diameter of 1 - 1.7meters, on either side of which are to direct driven circular plates onto which the magnets are fixed (the size and number of coils determines the power output. If you go to http://www.scoraigwind.com/nirvana/page1.htm you will see exactly what I build – mine are a direct copy in terms of the technical principals – but are produced using proper machined parts, and are professionally presented in custom housings – but in operating principal are identical. Yes – it really is that easy if you understand how – and much cheaper than buying commercially – less than 1/3 for the same thing from a professional wind turbine manufacturer. I offer a 5 gauruntee on the coil and all electronics. I give a lifetime garuntee on the tower – if I build it and install it – the exception been if it is hit by lightening (no on can garuntee against that damage

The grass problem – Guinea is an option, I don’t think you have been advised wrong per say, but letting animals graze it is a no no – they will tears the roots up over time and it will get more and more clumpy, as you like to describe it.

I’d give Ruzzi (the Thai’s say Lucy – because they cant say their R’s) a go. Spread it by hand and then get a rake over it just to cover it a little. It will fill in nicely between the Guinea clumps and at some point one will start to dominate. Put some fertilizer down50kg p/rai with the seed should be fine (any of the cheap nitrogen types will do – you ain’t going for a high quality feed so don’t go overboard). How much seed - start off with 2 -3 kg max p/rai thats actuall a lot, and quite a bit will eventually get taken over by the rest - but its a one investment and its going to give you a quick well spread root system. This is on a hillside/slope - is it not. Thast important because if not then it will become water logged and will not germinate, let alone grow.

And keep the animals off for at least 18 – 20 months. Then you can let one of the locals who has cattle maintain it for you for free – but insist he “cut & carries” it off the land to feed. Should work out quite well and it will be in his interest to maintain it as it provides him with a free feed source for his cattle.

Get back to me when ready.

Tim

[Nawtilus]

You do have an idea on the water question....simply because you use it. You farm on a klong/irrigation channel and a river frontage. I presume you pump from these sources.

If so are there any restrictions on what you pump ?

If not then I guess that has answered my question lol.

[lannarebirth]

Hi Ken

Anyway to your specific questions:

1) I think you is going to have problems with your water pump. You will need a pump that can pump at least 3.5 – 4bar pressure. Now in theory you can do that with 1 watt of power, but the volume which pumped will be a trickle – so pointless. I think you are going to struggle with one panel to get sufficient volume moved. It is not the way I would go about it. I need to know how much water you need to pump per day. From that, with the height info you have provided I can tell you exactly how many watts you require and exactly what pump you will need to get and how long you will have to run it – and from that we can calculate exactly how much power needs to be generated and stored. Get back to me on that please.

2) Sending power back to the grid? Knock the idea on the head – there is no system in place which will offer you any benefit or return for that at the moment in Thailand.

3) The turbines I build I build from scratch – I even wind the coils for the alternators/stators my self. You can have either type. The best for Thai conditions are the TAURUS design types – which have an odd number of coils in a circular arrangement around a diameter of 1 - 1.7meters, on either side of which are to direct driven circular plates onto which the magnets are fixed (the size and number of coils determines the power output. If you go to http://www.scoraigwind.com/nirvana/page1.htm you will see exactly what I build – mine are a direct copy in terms of the technical principals – but are produced using proper machined parts, and are professionally presented in custom housings – but in operating principal are identical. Yes – it really is that easy if you understand how – and much cheaper than buying commercially – less than 1/3 for the same thing from a professional wind turbine manufacturer. I offer a 5 gauruntee on the coil and all electronics. I give a lifetime garuntee on the tower – if I build it and install it – the exception been if it is hit by lightening (no on can garuntee against that damage

The grass problem – Guinea is an option, I don’t think you have been advised wrong per say, but letting animals graze it is a no no – they will tears the roots up over time and it will get more and more clumpy, as you like to describe it.

I’d give Ruzzi (the Thai’s say Lucy – because they cant say their R’s) a go. Spread it by hand and then get a rake over it just to cover it a little. It will fill in nicely between the Guinea clumps and at some point one will start to dominate. Put some fertilizer down50kg p/rai with the seed should be fine (any of the cheap nitrogen types will do – you ain’t going for a high quality feed so don’t go overboard). How much seed - start off with 2 -3 kg max p/rai thats actuall a lot, and quite a bit will eventually get taken over by the rest - but its a one investment and its going to give you a quick well spread root system. This is on a hillside/slope - is it not. Thast important because if not then it will become water logged and will not germinate, let alone grow.

And keep the animals off for at least 18 – 20 months. Then you can let one of the locals who has cattle maintain it for you for free – but insist he “cut & carries” it off the land to feed. Should work out quite well and it will be in his interest to maintain it as it provides him with a free feed source for his cattle.

Get back to me when ready.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and rapid response.

My immediate needs for water are to get water to a tank next to workers home, from a spring fed pool. It is a run of about 100 meters and a rise of about 12 meters. I'm in the process of building a 30,000 liter tank there, but rainy season is hampering my efforts. For there cleaning/toilet needs, together with feeding 9 dogs and a pig and watering various plants in dry season, I would guess perhaps 1500liters perday. I was wondering if a 12v pump might work delivering 200liters/hr over the course of the day. If not, what might I need? Currently I use a 6.5 hp gas powered centrifugal pump to fill a 1,500 liter tank every few days. Not a good long term solution and not in sufficient for further development.

Later this year I'll be building several 20,000 - 30,000 liter tanks at a range of 400 meters from source and a height of 35 meters from source. I can fill them with the same gas powered engine, using a reciprocating pump, but the fuel would be expensive, so much prefer a long term solution. I imagine 5,000 liters/day would be ample, as it's only for watering fruit trees during dry season, which most folks around here don't even do.

OK, I've knocked the power back to grid idea out of my head, darm it. I'm familiar with Hugh Piggots site and if there's someone to emulate in that field, it would be him. As I don't really have anywhere to send the power on the orchard land, I'd be considering this for the land I will live on. Can you tell me how noisy the turbine might be? What height of tower do you generally use?

Thanks for the lead on the Ruzzi grass. Here in Chiang Mai I had great difficulty in finding good advice. I'm told that I should probably look to Lopburi to find seed vendors?

Thanks again for your generosity.

Ken

[lannarebirth]

You do have an idea on the water question....simply because you use it. You farm on a klong/irrigation channel and a river frontage. I presume you pump from these sources.

If so are there any restrictions on what you pump ?

If not then I guess that has answered my question lol.

Hi Nawtilus,

For that land we get our water from the irrigation canal. There is no charge for it, but we and the other growers nearby must volunteer our labor several days per year to provide maintenance and cleanup of the klong and ditches. We are free to pump what we wish out of the river, but it is a more troublesome and expensive solution.

Ken

[chownah]

Lannarebirth,

I did some quick checking on the internet and found that 1 watt-hour is equal to about 370 kg-metre....where kg is a force kg...a force kg being the force that gravity exerts on a one kg mass. Since one litre of water has 1 kg of mass, this means that 1 watt-hour will lift one litre about 370 metres....or 370 litres about 1 metre...or 185 litres about 2 metres...etc. Since you were thinking about lifting the water a verticle distance of about 30 metres this means that 1 watt-hour will lift 12 litres of water up to the top of your hill. I looked at the link you posted that told about the specs for your solar system. It says each panel will produce 350 to 450 watt-hours per day. Assuming perfect efficiency (hahahaha) and assuming 400 watt-hours per day then you could pump 4,800 litres of water per day to the top of your hill...thats 4.8 cubic metres per day.

But you never get 100% efficiency...duh! Let's assume 50% efficiency getting the electricity from the panel to the pump....and then 50% effiency in pumping the water up the hill....this yields overall 25% effiiciency....so......1 cubic metre per day is probably an optimistic figure....maybe half of that is more realistic.....if you want to get a closer estimate you need to start looking into realistic efficiencies for all of the components in your system.

This same type of analysis can be used for estimating how much you could pump to the lower land you own.....Assume you have to pump 2 metres out of a creek to irrigate...then 1 watt-hour would pump 185 litres up two metres and 400 watt-hours per day would give you 74,000 litres which is 74 cubic metres...assuming 25% efficiency gives about 18 cubic metres per day as an optimistic estimate and 10 cubic metres per day is probably more realistic.....from one panel......more refined estimates come from more refined efficiencies for each of the components of your system.

Its late so I'm not going to proof read this and check for mistakes but I'm sure someone will let me know if I've made any.

Chownah

[lannarebirth]

Lannarebirth,

I did some quick checking on the internet and found that 1 watt-hour is equal to about 370 kg-metre....where kg is a force kg...a force kg being the force that gravity exerts on a one kg mass. Since one litre of water has 1 kg of mass, this means that 1 watt-hour will lift one litre about 370 metres....or 370 litres about 1 metre...or 185 litres about 2 metres...etc. Since you were thinking about lifting the water a verticle distance of about 30 metres this means that 1 watt-hour will lift 12 litres of water up to the top of your hill. I looked at the link you posted that told about the specs for your solar system. It says each panel will produce 350 to 450 watt-hours per day. Assuming perfect efficiency (hahahaha) and assuming 400 watt-hours per day then you could pump 4,800 litres of water per day to the top of your hill...thats 4.8 cubic metres per day.

But you never get 100% efficiency...duh! Let's assume 50% efficiency getting the electricity from the panel to the pump....and then 50% effiency in pumping the water up the hill....this yields overall 25% effiiciency....so......1 cubic metre per day is probably an optimistic figure....maybe half of that is more realistic.....if you want to get a closer estimate you need to start looking into realistic efficiencies for all of the components in your system.

This same type of analysis can be used for estimating how much you could pump to the lower land you own.....Assume you have to pump 2 metres out of a creek to irrigate...then 1 watt-hour would pump 185 litres up two metres and 400 watt-hours per day would give you 74,000 litres which is 74 cubic metres...assuming 25% efficiency gives about 18 cubic metres per day as an optimistic estimate and 10 cubic metres per day is probably more realistic.....from one panel......more refined estimates come from more refined efficiencies for each of the components of your system.

Its late so I'm not going to proof read this and check for mistakes but I'm sure someone will let me know if I've made any.

Chownah

Chownah,

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to do those calculations. There are a lot of variables to be sure. Proper hookup of panel, head pipe friction, etc.. I was looking at this setup:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_waterpumping.html

and was encouraged. Wouldn't it be great to see an alternative/remewable energy subforum here at TV?

Thank you again.

Ken

[Maizefarmer]

Ken

Negative – I have no restrictions – I pump as much as 2 000 tons a day in the dry season.

Yes – 12volt pump can do the job – it depends what its wattage rating is. e.g. you can get a 12v 3hp pump or even a 12v 5hp pump – either of which will do, but they will be drawing enormous current (e.g. 5hp = about 3.6Kw which is around 300Amps or about 3 full 12volt tractor batteries p/hour – so theoretically possible but not efficient – and the motor will weigh a ton because of the size of the coil required to handle that current - Ohms law).

That now said, CHOWNHA has taken the wind out my sail, and given you all the tech theory –, but this is an open forum, and to his credit – what he has told you is 100% dead on correct - just minus a few of the practical issues that will effect it.

So what is the realistic solution - and I emphasize "realistic" because the theory is one thing, but when it comes to putting it into practise a whole host of practical issues effect it, and add to this – and by realistic I mean both economical and practical.

This is my solution – with a strong economic theme to it – but I know it works because I have done it – so there, that takes care of any doubt on that.

Bearing in mind the height you tell me you need to pump and the volume you need to pump versus efficiency (and efficiency here means flow friction in the water pipe of the total distance to be pumped, plus the vertical height + a good safety margin), this is what I suggest if you want the practicality of 12Vdc.

2 x 12v Bilge pumps as used on the average yacht.

An example of these (but there are many different types) can be found on:

www.whalepumps.com/caravan_RV/product_list/16/72/

My recommendation is that you use standard blue pvc piping as obtainable from any Thai Hardware store and you ensure the diameter is 2” – 3” (not less).

These types of pumps are great – the one I have given the web address to as an example is rated at 2 bar (i.e. it will pump to 20 meters height). It can also run dry without any damage. It draws 5 amps and so in theory will run off a standard car battery of 60Amps for around 12 hours (if fully charged) – in reality it will run for about 9 hours because Thai batteries are never what they say they are!!

Taking into consideration height, distance pipe diameter, efficiency ect ect……. a single pump will give you in your application a realistic 4.3 – 5.6 litres p/minute – say 300p/h, and 2 will give you 600L p/hour, or your 5000 litres over around 10 hours.

And to power 2 pumps you are going to need 1 x 12Vdc 120 Amp truck battery, or a multiple of smaller batteries amperage 12Vdc batteries connected up in parallel to get a total of at least 120Amps.

Now then those are the basics – and as always, when I give advice – I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is …………blah blah, blah blah.

The 2nd best way to set the pumps up are, one at the beginning of the system, down by the water, and one half way up the line, connected in parallel to the 12vDc batteries.

But the best way to connect them up would be to place them as above, but in series and use a 24Vdc battery – that will give you better efficiency. There is a problem though – as I understand it, your whole solar system is set up for 12vDc, but if you can find a way around that (which is easy – but another story) – that is the way I would want to go – because it is easier to move 10Amps over a long cable at 24V, than it is to move to move 5Amps over a long cable at 12Vdc (yup ……… I’m just waiting for the flood of replies to that last statement!!!).

Any how’s, look I can go on and on about this – to cut a long story short, lots of ways to skin a cat. Bilge pumps are easy to get – all the yacht chandlers in BKK, Phuket and Pattaya have them and they all do the same job – just ensure it’s rated for 12Vdc and 5Amps or more, or even better ask for the pressure rating – you want 2bars or more pressure. I f you want me to source the components and provide you with a professional appraisal, to include correct cable size to use, right type of flow switch to use, and professional instructions on how to go about setting it all so that it works – I will do so, I will charge for it, and all the components used will be guaranteed and so will the performance. And at that point we need to go over to PM or private email, but for the purposes of steering you in the general direction it is my opinion that the above is an economical, practical and viable way to get the job done. I have just one concern – you panel wattage, I believe you need to invest in another panel and or include Ac/Dc from the house mains as an option - which should in any case be included because it ain't going to shine every day.

If you have a 3kw wind turbine - well, then problems over - you'll be able to pump 5000litres every hour! - and we can chat about that over PM or private email if you would like to.

Trust this all helps and all the best

Tim

Edited August 8, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[chownah]

Lannarebirth,

I'll try to tie Maizefarmer's pump data in with my analysis to try to give people a better understanding of how these estimates come about.

Maizefarmer's suggested pump is 12 volt and draws 5amps while pumping 5 litres per minute at a pressure of 2 bars which would be enough to lift the water the 12 metres vertically and in a 100 metre pipeline as you indicated in post #54. I haven't verified all of these things so I'll just accept them as valid assumptions.

Many times people have a difficult time following an analysis of this type because they don't know where the discussion is going...so to speak....so I'll try to introduce the analysis with a brief description of what I'm going to show...before I show it: To analyse the pumping efficiency I will first show how much energy the pump uses in one hour and assuming theoretic 100% efficiency(hahahhahah) I will convert that amount of energy into how much water could be lifted....then I will take the actual amount of water that the pump actually pumps in the conditions given and divide it by the theoretic 100% efficiency(hahahhaha) number to give the fraction or percentage that we actually get. Now...on to the numbers!!!

Since the pump draws 5 amps at 12 volts it uses (5x12=60) 60 watts while doing this. This means that in one hour the pump will use (1x60) 60 watt-hours of energy.

The pump pumps at 5 litres per minute so it will pump (5x60) 300 litres per hour....and from the paragraph above it will consume 60 watt-hours of energy while doing this.

From my previous post, we know that 1 watt-hour is equal to about 370 litre-metres....but the pump is using 60 watt-hours so if it were running at 100% efficiency(hahahhahaha) it would pump (370x60) 22,200 litre-metres....and since you are raising the water by 12 metres you would be able to lift (22,200/12) 1,852 litres of water up to your hilltop in one hour of running the pump......remember, this is assuming 100% efficiency(hahahhahaha).

But the data says that we are getting only 300 litres per hour actually pumped....so the efficiency of the pump when pumping in the conditions given would be (300/1852) 0.16 in other words...16%.

I'm not going through this analysis to try to prove that pumping this way is a good idea or that it is a bad idea.....everyone's situation is different and its up to the individual to decide the merit of these sorts of things. I do hope that this analysis will help people have a little bit better idea how to do this kind of estimating in the hopes that in the long run this knowledge will further the use of renewable energy resources.

Chownah

[chownah]

In my last post I made a mistake in reporting the pertinent data for the analysis:

In the second paragraph I wrote, "Maizefarmer's suggested pump is 12 volt and draws 5amps while pumping 5 litres per minute at a pressure of 2 bars....." After posting I thought about what I'd posted and saw a discrepency so I went out to the website which advertises the pump and looked at the pump's performance chart and found that Maizefarmer had correctly reported 5 litres per minute as its performance when pumping 12 metres. My mistake was not realizing that 5 litres per minute at 12 metres means that the pump is pumping at 1.2 bars pressure and not 2 bars pressure....so....what I should have written is:

"Maizefarmer's suggested pump is 12 volt and draws 5amps while pumping 5 litres per minute at a pressure of 1.2 bars....."

This does not effect the analysis but leaving my bad data in might lead someone to a wrong conclusion so I'm providing this correction and warning.

Chownah