US Seals dispute over Bin Laden killing

[Seastallion]

Should be charged with murder.

Why?

I guess he said that because of a few things. Firstly it was ex-judicial. Secondly, he was killed without formal identification. Thirdly he was killed without an offer of surrender.

If the US administration was consistent and honest about its activities in the war on terror there would be no ambiguity regarding who is combatant or not. In declared conflicts actors such as Bin Laden are fair game and it was carried out IAW any standard of war. The terrible manipulation of the US courts to try those who war on america and the west, or afford them rights of due process equal to a citizen, serve to perpetuate the US Administration fallacy that the war is really a legal effort against criminals. Legalizing this conflict to criminality serves to deny others are at war with the US, irrespective of the nonsense we feed ourselves. I hardly think judicial proceedings can act in military jurisdiction, certainly abroad, against non US agents. IMO

If you abandon the moral high ground, you are starting down a slippery slope that could easily end up hurting you or your loved ones. Men wiser than you or me have formulated laws and rules of war. They did this for reasons. They did this to avoid the human tendency to revert to animals when angry or desperate.

What you are suggesting is that anyone who looked like OBL was a fair target to be shot on sight.

[Ulysses G.]

What you are suggesting is that anyone who looked like OBL was a fair target to be shot on sight.

He is suggesting that OBL himself was a fair target to be shot on sight and that is exactly what happened.

[impulse]

I don't know how much more we would know if Oswald hadn't been killed, but I suspect we would have had some blanks filled in.

Osama Bin Laden, on the other hand, would probably never have talked and if he did, he would have raised more questions than he answered. He was rather cut off from his followers and so he probably no longer had any real idea of what was actually being planned. He would have had broad knowledge, but the specifics would have been missing and what was needed by western countries is the specifics.

As interesting as he may seem, I have a feeling he was a rather shallow person. He inherited money and used it to do evil. What we would have gotten was some rambling monologues.

I'm not talking "specifics" to act on. I'm talking about our trust in our government.

To this day, a large portion of the US population do not believe Oswald acted alone, and a significant portion don't believe he was involved at all. That's 50+ years after the fact.

Google "9/11 conspiracy" and there is a vast industry of people out there that don't believe UBL was involved in the WTC act. I'm skeptical, but I can't say they're wrong. I have no doubt that forces within our government or military industrial complex could, and would have perpetrated the actions that day for their own purposes.

The sad reality is that none of us know whether he was, or whether Oswald was involved in the JFK assassination (or who brought down TWA 800, or the 9/11 plane that crashed in Pennsylvania- just to name a couple) . That's the level of trust we have in our government. I suspect there would be more trust if Oswald had just bragged a little from Leavenworth, or if UBL squealed from Guantanamo.

Or maybe there's a reason neither survived to tell their side...

Edited November 10, 2014 by impulse

[craigt3365]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. People out there still believe man didn't walk on the moon, which is ridiculous. OBL was never "fingered" for 9/11, but he did admit he was responsible for the 1998 embassy bombing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings

Over 200 were killed and over 4,000 were injured. Good enough reason to get rid of OBL, IMHO.

Even his son in law said OBL was responsible for 9/11:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/587388/osama-bin-laden-claimed-responsibility-for-911-attacks-says-son-in-law

[NeverSure]

The guy was an enemy combatant and it was a military action. Does someone think that in battle people stop and ask for ID before shooting?

BTW Saddam was tried and hanged after being convicted by his own people.

[Seastallion]

The guy was an enemy combatant and it was a military action. Does someone think that in battle people stop and ask for ID before shooting?

BTW Saddam was tried and hanged after being convicted by his own people.

In combat, generally the enemy are armed, shooting at you, and in a battlefield or theater of war. The guy that was allegedly shot by two different shooters making the fatal shot was none of those things. In fact he was unarmed, in a bedroom, in a private house in a friendly country.

And we still don't really know if it was him. It may have been, it may not have been.

[Seastallion]

So, back to the OP. Unless these guys fired simultaneously into his head, one of them is lying. Which one? Or is it both?

[NeverSure]

In combat, generally the enemy are armed, shooting at you, and in a battlefield or theater of war. The guy that was allegedly shot by two different shooters making the fatal shot was none of those things. In fact he was unarmed, in a bedroom, in a private house in a friendly country.

And we still don't really know if it was him. It may have been, it may not have been.

His body was taken to Afghanistan for identification before it was buried at sea. He was the founder of Al Qaeda, and even they acknowledged that he had been killed.

As for unarmed, the seals encountered a firefight in the building from a guy with an AK47 and killed him first. The building had 3 floors and they didn't know what they were going to run into. In battle you don't stop and ask each guy if he's armed.

The killing "was welcomed by the United Nations, NATO, the European Union, and a large number of governments."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Take this away from it: You don't screw with the United States of America on its own soil unless you want to be hunted to the ends of the earth, no matter how long it takes. That was a very important message to send.

[Seastallion]

Agreed. To all you wrote.

Except the "they" in Afghanistan bit...who is "they"

Edited November 11, 2014 by Seastallion

[uptheos]

The guy was an enemy combatant and it was a military action. Does someone think that in battle people stop and ask for ID before shooting?

BTW Saddam was tried and hanged after being convicted by his own people.

In combat, generally the enemy are armed, shooting at you, and in a battlefield or theater of war. The guy that was allegedly shot by two different shooters making the fatal shot was none of those things. In fact he was unarmed, in a bedroom, in a private house in a friendly country.

And we still don't really know if it was him. It may have been, it may not have been.

Yeah right!

What does it matter who shot him, he's dead isn't he?.......hallelujah halleluja.

YOU don't know if it was really him.......a count of one is irrelevant.

[NeverSure]

Agreed. To all you wrote.

Except the "they" in Afghanistan bit...who is "they"

Read the link I posted please. Al Qaeda acknowledged in print that it was Bin Laden who was killed.

[Seastallion]

The guy was an enemy combatant and it was a military action. Does someone think that in battle people stop and ask for ID before shooting?

BTW Saddam was tried and hanged after being convicted by his own people.

In combat, generally the enemy are armed, shooting at you, and in a battlefield or theater of war. The guy that was allegedly shot by two different shooters making the fatal shot was none of those things. In fact he was unarmed, in a bedroom, in a private house in a friendly country.

And we still don't really know if it was him. It may have been, it may not have been.

Yeah right!

What does it matter who shot him, he's dead isn't he?.......hallelujah halleluja.

YOU don't know if it was really him.......a count of one is irrelevant.

It's not a count of one. But your point is irrelevant.

At least one of the shooters is lying. Why not both? They can't get their stories straight. It wouldn't be the first time the US military has created a dramatic (fictional) story. Private Jessica Lynch springs to mind.

Regardless, I do believe he's dead. I also believe it's important to the US for the world to believe what NeverSure wrote, " You don't screw with the United States of America on its own soil unless you want to be hunted to the ends of the earth, no matter how long it takes. That was a very important message to send...."

Edit...Have I got that name wrong...? Off to google

Jessica Lynch.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Seastallion

[Seastallion]

Agreed. To all you wrote.

Except the "they" in Afghanistan bit...who is "they"

Read the link I posted please. Al Qaeda acknowledged in print that it was Bin Laden who was killed.

Hmmm, if you were Al Qaeda top brass, you would want the US to claim they killed him, especially if he died ages ago of, say kidney disease and you'd been "carrying out his orders" for some time. Or you'd claimed the multi-million $ bounty and shared it among the inner circle. It's also fuel to rev up the cannon fodder militants. It took them 6 days to decide to confirm.

So, basically, according to Wiki, Al Qaeda's website agreement that OBL was killed by the US is the (only) confirmation.

Not verry convincing

[craigt3365]

Hmmm, if you were Al Qaeda top brass, you would want the US to claim they killed him, especially if he died ages ago of, say kidney disease and you'd been "carrying out his orders" for some time. Or you'd claimed the multi-million $ bounty and shared it among the inner circle. It's also fuel to rev up the cannon fodder militants. It took them 6 days to decide to confirm.

So, basically, according to Wiki, Al Qaeda's website agreement that OBL was killed by the US is the (only) confirmation.

Not verry convincing

Ammm....confirmation by the US government, members of seal team 6, Pakistani intelligence, OBL's son in law, etc, etc. Too many moving parts to fake it. Word would get out one way or another.

And of course there's the Abbottabad Commission report, from Pakistan, confirming the sequence of events, and leaked by Al Jazeera:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbottabad_Commission_Report

The commission made several findings. Among these include:^[21]

• Osama bin Laden entered Pakistan in mid-2002 after narrowly escaping capture in the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan. Over nine years, he moved to various places inside the country, including South Waziristan and northern Swat Valley.
• In Swat, the al-Qaeda leader reportedly met with Khalid Shaikh Mohammad, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, in early 2003. About a month later, KSM was captured in Rawalpindi in a joint US-Pakistani operation, and bin Laden fled the area.
• Osama bin Laden, along with two of his wives and several children and grandchildren, moved into the custom-built compound in Abbottabad, a military garrison town, in 2005 and lived there until the US raid.
• Osama bin Laden was very concerned about surveillance. The report says bin Laden wore a cowboy hat outside to avoid detection from above and considered buying and cutting down a row of poplar trees on the perimeter of the Abbottabad compound because he thought it might provide cover for observers.
• The presence of a CIA support network to help track down bin Laden without the Pakistani establishment's knowledge was "a case of nothing less than a collective and sustained dereliction of duty by the political, military and intelligence leadership of the country."

As for who the shooter was, this describes the situation quite well. I've never been in a fire fight, but can only imagine how hard it would be to figure things out with bullets whizzing around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Bin Laden peered through his bedroom door at the Americans advancing up the stairs, and then retreated into the room as the lead SEAL fired a shot at him, which either missed or hit him in the side. Robert O’Neill, who later publicly identified himself as the SEAL who shot bin Laden,^[98][99] rolled through the door and confronted bin Laden inside the bedroom. O'Neill states that bin Laden was standing behind a woman with his hands on her shoulders, pushing her forward. O'Neill immediately shot bin Laden twice in the forehead, then once more as bin Laden crumpled to the floor.^[100]Matt Bissonnette, who entered the room at about the same time, also claims to have fired shots into bin Laden's fallen body.^[101]

Being a former avid hunter, there were many times we'd sit after the hunt arguing who'd gotten the prey. Impossible to figure out when you are using the same weapons and the same ammo and shooting simultaneously.

[Seastallion]

Ok, thanks Craig. That's enough for me. My doubts are rested.

[neverdie]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. People out there still believe man didn't walk on the moon, which is ridiculous. OBL was never "fingered" for 9/11, but he did admit he was responsible for the 1998 embassy bombing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings

Over 200 were killed and over 4,000 were injured. Good enough reason to get rid of OBL, IMHO.

Even his son in law said OBL was responsible for 9/11:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/587388/osama-bin-laden-claimed-responsibility-for-911-attacks-says-son-in-law

That's it !

I'm glad he got smoked, the dirty scum sukka already cost the decent people of the world so much life, so much grief, so much money. I'm glad a $2 bullet squared him up nicely, sure beats the millions of tax dollars that would of been spent on his public funded prosecution AND PUBLIC FUNDED defence, when clearly he was just long overdue for eradication.

Good riddance OBL.......I hope you 17 virgins turn out to be 17 violent rapists with extremely large penises and a taste for bearded dudes with towels on their head......you deserve an eternity of buggerisations & some.

Good riddance.

Let's get real people, OBL would of taken great pleasure in causing the USA (& their allies) as much pain as possible.....he got what was coming to him, end of story.

Now, as to the seals, let em have their 5 minutes of fame, no big deal.....they all deserve high accolades.

Edited November 11, 2014 by neverdie

[neverdie]

The guy was an enemy combatant and it was a military action. Does someone think that in battle people stop and ask for ID before shooting?

BTW Saddam was tried and hanged after being convicted by his own people.

That's just it, too many do gooders, never been in an armed or violent conflict, never been in the heat of war, yet they've got to open up their loud traps and pollute the air with nonesense.

Both OBL & SaddM both had plenty of opportunity to surrender, but chose their own fates.

Som nom na.

Edited November 11, 2014 by neverdie

[NeverSure]

If anyone's interested, the Seals don't carry the normal NATO handguns. NATO is 9mm parabellum which is a great, fast, penetrating round with little "kick" and quick to get back on target. The guns can be fairly light weight and carry a lot of rounds.

The Seals have for years carried the Hecker and Koch MK23 in .45 ACP caliber. Some think the .45 being heavier and slower hits harder like a sledgehammer and has good stopping power. Others believe the faster lighter 9mm penetrates much farther, increasing the odds of destroying a vital organ. The US FBI has done extensive testing and likes the 9mm.

Both are great rounds.

The Seals' guns are heavy and would be hard for a civilian to carry concealed while there are many small and light 9mm's.

The Seals guns are superb and offer match grade accuracy but that can be had in a high-end 9mm too.

Craig is right. They had matching guns and ammo, and without serious ballistic testing which there wouldn't have been time to do, no one could know who fired which shots.

I will say that if I shoot at something and hit it at fairly close range I know I hit it, and where. As Craig said, not so much at long range.

The Navy Seal H&K, about US$1,000.

One of the world's smallest and lightest 9mm's - a Kel Tec PF9, about US$325. Ideal for close work.

[Pakboong]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

[craigt3365]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

Security clearances are a big deal, and these guys are at the upper levels. Incredible hoops are needed to obtain these, and the restrictions don't just go away when you retire.

Perhaps it's like it was reported. 2 guys shooting at the same time in a dark room. Close to impossible to tell who actually made the kill shot. Conspiracy theories aside.

[Pakboong]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

Security clearances are a big deal, and these guys are at the upper levels. Incredible hoops are needed to obtain these, and the restrictions don't just go away when you retire.

Perhaps it's like it was reported. 2 guys shooting at the same time in a dark room. Close to impossible to tell who actually made the kill shot. Conspiracy theories aside.

Seldom are things exactly how they were reported. These guys know who shot him or who didn't shoot him. One of these guys resigned 4 years short of retirement and some 16 were killed in when an RPG hit their chopper. These guys do not make those kinds of mistakes but, maybe this time was an exception.

[craigt3365]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

Security clearances are a big deal, and these guys are at the upper levels. Incredible hoops are needed to obtain these, and the restrictions don't just go away when you retire.

Perhaps it's like it was reported. 2 guys shooting at the same time in a dark room. Close to impossible to tell who actually made the kill shot. Conspiracy theories aside.

Seldom are things exactly how they were reported. These guys know who shot him or who didn't shoot him. One of these guys resigned 4 years short of retirement and some 16 were killed in when an RPG hit their chopper. These guys do not make those kinds of mistakes but, maybe this time was an exception.

Agreed. That's what happens when you deal with top secret missions. Details are normally not made public. And for good reason.

Great article on the conspiracy theories of seal team 6:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread917873/pg1

Mistakes are made often, like in Iran:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw

The more moving parts you have, even if highly planned and involving highly trained individuals, the greater chance of a major failure.

[NeverSure]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

Security clearances are a big deal, and these guys are at the upper levels. Incredible hoops are needed to obtain these, and the restrictions don't just go away when you retire.

Perhaps it's like it was reported. 2 guys shooting at the same time in a dark room. Close to impossible to tell who actually made the kill shot. Conspiracy theories aside.

From the link I posted above, Bin Laden was holding a woman in front of him as a shield. The Seals took him with a head shot(s). That's really hard to do in a fluid environment so kudos to the adrenaline filled marksmanship, whoever did it.

[craigt3365]

This actually could be guilt eating at these guys given they are under a routine gag order. They could know what actually happened and this is their way of letting the public know they are being conned. A lot of really bad stuff has happened to Seal Team 6 since this event.

Security clearances are a big deal, and these guys are at the upper levels. Incredible hoops are needed to obtain these, and the restrictions don't just go away when you retire.

Perhaps it's like it was reported. 2 guys shooting at the same time in a dark room. Close to impossible to tell who actually made the kill shot. Conspiracy theories aside.

From the link I posted above, Bin Laden was holding a woman in front of him as a shield. The Seals took him with a head shot(s). That's really hard to do in a fluid environment so kudos to the adrenaline filled marksmanship, whoever did it.

Adrenaline is right. Even when hunting, we'd get "buck fever". You get nervous, jumpy, miss shots, think you see a buck when it's actually a doe, etc. I can't even imagine the stress in these guys situation with people shooting at them, in a foreign country, etc.

[Scott]

An off-topic post removed.

[Lissos]

In a strange way, counter claims by other S.E.A.L team members prevents the emergence of an individual.

Intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I suspect not. Ultimately, it will (and should) be remembered as a team effort

[Jdiddy]

Reminds me of "Bravo two zero" vs "the real bravo two zero"