Pheu Thai says it's ready to offer ideas for new charter

[sjaak327]

Recommendation #1 - amnesty for all Pheu Thai members???

Why not ? After all all NCPO members already written amnesty for themselves in the interim constitution.

[whybother]

Recommendation #1 - amnesty for all Pheu Thai members???

Why not ? After all all NCPO members already written amnesty for themselves in the interim constitution.

That makes sense. Let's complain about the junta giving themselves amnesty and then propose we give ourselves amnesty!

[sjaak327]

Recommendation #1 - amnesty for all Pheu Thai members???

Why not ? After all all NCPO members already written amnesty for themselves in the interim constitution.

That makes sense. Let's complain about the junta giving themselves amnesty and then propose we give ourselves amnesty!

So I take it you disagree with both ? So do I, but of course the suggestion is justified if that other amnesty isn't removed.

[whybother]

So I take it you disagree with both ? So do I, but of course the suggestion is justified if that other amnesty isn't removed.

Two wrongs don't make a right. That's the problem in Thailand. All of this "but they get away with it" bs.

[sjaak327]

So I take it you disagree with both ? So do I, but of course the suggestion is justified if that other amnesty isn't removed.

Two wrongs don't make a right. That's the problem in Thailand. All of this "but they get away with it" bs.

It's not about two wrongs it is about equal justice for everybody. A few people including 38 senators are currently in the process of being impeached on alleged violation of the 2007 charter whilst people that did violate it have no impeachment proceedings and thanks to the amnesty they granted themselves in the interim charter, probably never will.

Maybe in light of this, the blanket amnesty law proposed by the Yingluck administration isn't so outrageous as claimed, at least it wouldn't just benefit a few generals.

Edit to add; I forgot about the fact that 3 out of those 38 senators are currently serving in the NLA which means it should be 35 senators, lovely how justice is served don't you agree ?

Edited November 15, 2014 by sjaak327

[whybother]

So I take it you disagree with both ? So do I, but of course the suggestion is justified if that other amnesty isn't removed.

Two wrongs don't make a right. That's the problem in Thailand. All of this "but they get away with it" bs.

It's not about two wrongs it is about equal justice for everybody. A few people including 38 senators are currently in the process of being impeached on alleged violation of the 2007 charter whilst people that did violate it have no impeachment proceedings and thanks to the amnesty they granted themselves in the interim charter, probably never will.

Maybe in light of this, the blanket amnesty law proposed by the Yingluck administration isn't so outrageous as claimed, at least it wouldn't just benefit a few generals.

It's exactly about two wrongs. You're saying that because the junta gave themselves amnesty (one wrong), PTP should give themselves amnesty (another wrong). That's two wrongs, and it is not right.

If you say that it is OK that PTP give themselves amnesty, then you are approving of the junta giving themselves amnesty.

[sjaak327]

So I take it you disagree with both ? So do I, but of course the suggestion is justified if that other amnesty isn't removed.

Two wrongs don't make a right. That's the problem in Thailand. All of this "but they get away with it" bs.

It's not about two wrongs it is about equal justice for everybody. A few people including 38 senators are currently in the process of being impeached on alleged violation of the 2007 charter whilst people that did violate it have no impeachment proceedings and thanks to the amnesty they granted themselves in the interim charter, probably never will.

Maybe in light of this, the blanket amnesty law proposed by the Yingluck administration isn't so outrageous as claimed, at least it wouldn't just benefit a few generals.

It's exactly about two wrongs. You're saying that because the junta gave themselves amnesty (one wrong), PTP should give themselves amnesty (another wrong). That's two wrongs, and it is not right.

If you say that it is OK that PTP give themselves amnesty, then you are approving of the junta giving themselves amnesty.

In the ideal situation the amnesty granted by the militairy should be revoked. If that is not on the books, why would PTP, the democrats or any other political party not be allowed to do the same ? After all they law should be equal for everybody, so if the Junta is allowed to grant them amnesty through the charter, so should everybody else.

[whybother]

In the ideal situation the amnesty granted by the militairy should be revoked. If that is not on the books, why would PTP, the democrats or any other political party not be allowed to do the same ? After all they law should be equal for everybody, so if the Junta is allowed to grant them amnesty through the charter, so should everybody else.

Political parties are not allowed to do the same because they like to follow the law. Military juntas that commit coups make up their own laws.

Can you see the difference?

[JOC]

13/11/14 Plodprasob - "The Pheu Thai party will not participate in any activities staged by the government set up by the military junta, including the drafting of a new constitution"

2 days later - The Pheu Thai Party yesterday advised the chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee of its willingness to meet with the CDC and provide input on the new charter.

Even when they are not in power they have no direction, no commitment, no synergy and no hope.

I assume Chalerm will promise to behead himself if they are involved in the charter tomorrow.

What a profession outfit the PTP are!!!

At least they don't hide in temples pretending to be monks!!

[sjaak327]

In the ideal situation the amnesty granted by the militairy should be revoked. If that is not on the books, why would PTP, the democrats or any other political party not be allowed to do the same ? After all they law should be equal for everybody, so if the Junta is allowed to grant them amnesty through the charter, so should everybody else.

Political parties are not allowed to do the same because they like to follow the law. Military juntas that commit coups make up their own laws.

Can you see the difference?

Yes I certainly see the difference, hence my wish to make them accountable for what they did. In absence of this I do believe posters that support the current Junta and more laughable take the moral highground have no right to do so. Hence my original reaction.

No one should be able to make up their own laws and get away with it.

Edit to add: this precisely highlights why the impeachment procedures currently in the pipeline in regards to voilation of the constitution cannot be taken seriously, as a few people will get impeached whilst others that have done the exact same thing (or actually worse) are not accountable for their actions.

Edited November 15, 2014 by sjaak327

[whybother]

In the ideal situation the amnesty granted by the militairy should be revoked. If that is not on the books, why would PTP, the democrats or any other political party not be allowed to do the same ? After all they law should be equal for everybody, so if the Junta is allowed to grant them amnesty through the charter, so should everybody else.

Political parties are not allowed to do the same because they like to follow the law. Military juntas that commit coups make up their own laws.

Can you see the difference?

Yes I certainly see the difference, hence my wish to make them accountable for what they did. In absence of this I do believe posters that support the current Junta and more laughable take the moral highground have no right to do so. Hence my original reaction.

No one should be able to make up their own laws and get away with it.

They shouldn't, but they do. That doesn't mean that a government that likes to call itself "democratic" should.

[sjaak327]

In the ideal situation the amnesty granted by the militairy should be revoked. If that is not on the books, why would PTP, the democrats or any other political party not be allowed to do the same ? After all they law should be equal for everybody, so if the Junta is allowed to grant them amnesty through the charter, so should everybody else.

Political parties are not allowed to do the same because they like to follow the law. Military juntas that commit coups make up their own laws.

Can you see the difference?

Yes I certainly see the difference, hence my wish to make them accountable for what they did. In absence of this I do believe posters that support the current Junta and more laughable take the moral highground have no right to do so. Hence my original reaction.

No one should be able to make up their own laws and get away with it.

They shouldn't, but they do. That doesn't mean that a government that likes to call itself "democratic" should.

As far as I know the Yingluck government didn't abolish the 2007 constitution and replaced it with their own. They did try to amend it, which is what governments with an electoral mandate do all over the world.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I should have added without a mandate to my last sentence, sorry for the confusion,

[whybother]

As far as I know the Yingluck government didn't abolish the 2007 constitution and replaced it with their own. They did try to amend it, which is what governments with an electoral mandate do all over the world.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I should have added without a mandate to my last sentence, sorry for the confusion,

Whether you have "a mandate" or not, there are some things you can't do. If you're a "law abiding" government, you should follow the law.

If you're a junta that has taken power through a coup, you can do what you like. That is until someone else comes along with enough power (elected or not) that decides that they have to be held accountable.

[sjaak327]

As far as I know the Yingluck government didn't abolish the 2007 constitution and replaced it with their own. They did try to amend it, which is what governments with an electoral mandate do all over the world.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I should have added without a mandate to my last sentence, sorry for the confusion,

Whether you have "a mandate" or not, there are some things you can't do. If you're a "law abiding" government, you should follow the law.

If you're a junta that has taken power through a coup, you can do what you like. That is until someone else comes along with enough power (elected or not) that decides that they have to be held accountable.

You and I both know that they will never be held accountable, as any future law abiding governments have no way of doing that due to the amnesty that will carry over in the next charter. Hence a blanket amnesty law does sound logical in Thailand's case.

[whybother]

You and I both know that they will never be held accountable, as any future law abiding governments have no way of doing that due to the amnesty that will carry over in the next charter. Hence a blanket amnesty law does sound logical in Thailand's case.

Of course they will never be held accountable. That doesn't make a blanket amnesty logical.

If you're saying that you agree with a blanket amnesty (and just how big is this "blanket"?), you're saying that you agree with the junta giving themselves amnesty. You can't argue that the junta shouldn't have amnesty and in the next sentence argue that there should be a blanket amnesty.

The reality is, the junta have given themselves amnesty. There is very little anyone can do about it. Most likely, a majority of the people will vote to give the junta amnesty as they did in 2007.

[sjaak327]

You and I both know that they will never be held accountable, as any future law abiding governments have no way of doing that due to the amnesty that will carry over in the next charter. Hence a blanket amnesty law does sound logical in Thailand's case.

Of course they will never be held accountable. That doesn't make a blanket amnesty logical.

If you're saying that you agree with a blanket amnesty (and just how big is this "blanket"?), you're saying that you agree with the junta giving themselves amnesty. You can't argue that the junta shouldn't have amnesty and in the next sentence argue that there should be a blanket amnesty.

The reality is, the junta have given themselves amnesty. There is very little anyone can do about it. Most likely, a majority of the people will vote to give the junta amnesty as they did in 2007.

I am not saying that and you know it ! I am saying either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one. I have a preference for no one, but if that is not on the books than everyone should be granted the same amnesty.

Again the law should be applied to everyone, not only to a certain group of people whichever side they are on.

In regards to the majority approving the next charter (it this vote will actually happen remains to be seen), you seem to suggest people actually have a choice, maybe they would if voting no would mean return to democracy with the old charter. But just as in 2007 that option will not be offered, so it is take it or leave it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by sjaak327

[whybother]

I am not saying that and you know it ! I am saying either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one. I have a preference for no one, but if that is not on the books than everyone should be granted the same amnesty.

Again the law should be applied to everyone, not only to a certain group of people whichever side they are on.

Fine. If PTP commit a coup, everyone can back amnesty for them.

Giving amnesty to corruption cases isn't really like-for-like, is it?

[sjaak327]

I am not saying that and you know it ! I am saying either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one. I have a preference for no one, but if that is not on the books than everyone should be granted the same amnesty.

Again the law should be applied to everyone, not only to a certain group of people whichever side they are on.

Fine. If PTP commit a coup, everyone can back amnesty for them.

Giving amnesty to corruption cases isn't really like-for-like, is it?

Of course it is, in both cases laws have been broken, pure and simple. If you break the law, you need to be accountable, that includes Thaksin, Prayuth and all of the others.

[whybother]

I am not saying that and you know it ! I am saying either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one. I have a preference for no one, but if that is not on the books than everyone should be granted the same amnesty.

Again the law should be applied to everyone, not only to a certain group of people whichever side they are on.

Fine. If PTP commit a coup, everyone can back amnesty for them.

Giving amnesty to corruption cases isn't really like-for-like, is it?

Of course it is, in both cases laws have been broken, pure and simple. If you break the law, you need to be accountable, that includes Thaksin, Prayuth and all of the others.

So you're advocating letting murderers off too?

[sjaak327]

I am not saying that and you know it ! I am saying either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one. I have a preference for no one, but if that is not on the books than everyone should be granted the same amnesty.

Again the law should be applied to everyone, not only to a certain group of people whichever side they are on.

Fine. If PTP commit a coup, everyone can back amnesty for them.

Giving amnesty to corruption cases isn't really like-for-like, is it?

Of course it is, in both cases laws have been broken, pure and simple. If you break the law, you need to be accountable, that includes Thaksin, Prayuth and all of the others.

So you're advocating letting murderers off too?

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

[whybother]

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

The part where you say "either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one".

The junta have amnesty, so you think that everyone should have amnesty, including murderers.

Unless you're advocating that just a few selected people get amnesty.

[sjaak327]

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

The part where you say "either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one".

The junta have amnesty, so you think that everyone should have amnesty, including murderers.

Unless you're advocating that just a few selected people get amnesty.

I did not say that, I said the SAME amnesty. I don't believe the current junta wrote an amnesty that would absolve them from murder or did they. They have amnesty for violating the 2007 constitution. That crime is the very one I did mention before, and that particular crime should either be prosecuted for all offenders or none at all. This includes the 38 (or 35) senators, the former speaker of the house, the junta, and Suthep and co.

Not sure how you managed to think I am suggesting amnesty for a select few, as all of my post point to the direct opposite. Maybe reading or comprehension aren't your best skills, or you are just trying some diversion trick. It won't work either way.

My posts are a cry for equal justice for everyone.

[mikemac]

Plodprasob says Pheu Thai will not join charter writing process

yesterday

Pheu Thai says it's ready to offer ideas for new charter

Today

Looks like PTP are still operating like a well oiled machine, clear cohesive policies and a clear vision.

Yesterday? Actually 13th November:

Thai PBS 13th November

Plodprasob says Pheu Thai will not join charter writing process

He pointed out that the party could not send an official representative to meet the CDC but could, at best, offer some general views about the charter such as protection of the liberty and right for equal treatment and a true democratic rule.

Mr Plodprasob further said that any official view of the party concerning the charter would have to be discussed in the party or, at least, in the executive committee. He suggested that the martial law be eased to allow political parties to hold meetings.

The Nation 15th November

The Pheu Thai Party yesterday advised the chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee of its willingness to meet with the CDC and provide input on the new charter.

The CDC had requested the party's cooperation.

But Pheu Thai expressed concerns over the National Council for Peace and Order's ban on political gatherings, saying it affected the party's ability to discuss the issue.

"The Pheu Thai Party is pleased to cooperate and take part in providing views regarding the drafting of the new constitution in order make it most democratic and in order [that the charter] can be a guarantee for justice for the country and people from all sides in accordance to what the party and the international community adhere to and accept," it said in a letter to the committee.

The party also urged the CDC to coordinate with the NCPO and the Election Commission to allow party members to meet in order to discuss the charter.

So there we have it, rather than ramrod711's skewed take on proceedings in an attempt to make political "points" where there are none to be made, what we actually have is, same story, same outcome, different media sources...............................

A thought occurred to me as I was reading Fabio's amazing post, the eerie similarities between him and the Thaksin Shinawatra political parties.

Earlier forms of the current PTP abomination banned for various reasons only to reemerge under a new pseudonym to continue doing exactly as they did before they were banned.

Twilight Zone creepy !

[Local Drunk]

Read as: what's in it for us.

[Fatty123]

PT are part of Thailand's problems not solutions. The only thing I agree with the junta on is that they are not actually good for the country as a whole and are also a pretty supressive and corrupt political party. However, it's not up to me. It's up to the Thai electorate. Or it should be. And they seem to want that party to rule (for now...unless you've lost it and believe the 93% of course).

So, if I was a PT politician I would have nothing to do with the Junta's 'roadmap' or whatever they are calling it this week. Any 'reform' is being put in place to protect the privileged few and making sure that they can continue to control the country's wealth.

I would tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, ask them to respect every Thai in the country and return to free and fair elections.

[whybother]

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

The part where you say "either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one".

The junta have amnesty, so you think that everyone should have amnesty, including murderers.

Unless you're advocating that just a few selected people get amnesty.

I did not say that, I said the SAME amnesty. I don't believe the current junta wrote an amnesty that would absolve them from murder or did they. They have amnesty for violating the 2007 constitution. That crime is the very one I did mention before, and that particular crime should either be prosecuted for all offenders or none at all. This includes the 38 (or 35) senators, the former speaker of the house, the junta, and Suthep and co.

Not sure how you managed to think I am suggesting amnesty for a select few, as all of my post point to the direct opposite. Maybe reading or comprehension aren't your best skills, or you are just trying some diversion trick. It won't work either way.

My posts are a cry for equal justice for everyone.

The junta wrote an amnesty for the coup. That's not in the constitution. So when PTP commit a coup, they can write an amnesty for themselves.

[sjaak327]

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

The part where you say "either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one".

The junta have amnesty, so you think that everyone should have amnesty, including murderers.

Unless you're advocating that just a few selected people get amnesty.

I did not say that, I said the SAME amnesty. I don't believe the current junta wrote an amnesty that would absolve them from murder or did they. They have amnesty for violating the 2007 constitution. That crime is the very one I did mention before, and that particular crime should either be prosecuted for all offenders or none at all. This includes the 38 (or 35) senators, the former speaker of the house, the junta, and Suthep and co.

Not sure how you managed to think I am suggesting amnesty for a select few, as all of my post point to the direct opposite. Maybe reading or comprehension aren't your best skills, or you are just trying some diversion trick. It won't work either way.

My posts are a cry for equal justice for everyone.

The junta wrote an amnesty for the coup. That's not in the constitution. So when PTP commit a coup, they can write an amnesty for themselves.

I see you are now discussing technicalities. You either support equal justice or you don't. By the way one doesn't need a coup to include an amnesty clause, wasn't that the line used by the anti government protestors ? Edited November 15, 2014 by sjaak327

[whybother]

What part of "if you break the law, you need to be accountable" do you not understand ?

The part where you say "either everyone gets granted amnesty or no one".

The junta have amnesty, so you think that everyone should have amnesty, including murderers.

Unless you're advocating that just a few selected people get amnesty.

I did not say that, I said the SAME amnesty. I don't believe the current junta wrote an amnesty that would absolve them from murder or did they. They have amnesty for violating the 2007 constitution. That crime is the very one I did mention before, and that particular crime should either be prosecuted for all offenders or none at all. This includes the 38 (or 35) senators, the former speaker of the house, the junta, and Suthep and co.

Not sure how you managed to think I am suggesting amnesty for a select few, as all of my post point to the direct opposite. Maybe reading or comprehension aren't your best skills, or you are just trying some diversion trick. It won't work either way.

My posts are a cry for equal justice for everyone.

The junta wrote an amnesty for the coup. That's not in the constitution. So when PTP commit a coup, they can write an amnesty for themselves.

I see you are now discussing technicalities. You either support equal justice or you don't. By the way one doesn't need a coup to include an amnesty clause, wasn't that the line used by the anti government protestors ?

I support justice. I don't agree with an amnesty for corruption. I also don't support an amnesty for a coup. I especially don't support "you got away with it so I should be able to get away with it too".

Being outraged at the junta giving themselves amnesty for the coup, then supporting an amnesty for corruption really just shows how two faced some people are.

[rubl]

Plodprasob says Pheu Thai will not join charter writing process

yesterday

Pheu Thai says it's ready to offer ideas for new charter

Today

Looks like PTP are still operating like a well oiled machine, clear cohesive policies and a clear vision.

Yesterday? Actually 13th November:

Thai PBS 13th November

Plodprasob says Pheu Thai will not join charter writing process

He pointed out that the party could not send an official representative to meet the CDC but could, at best, offer some general views about the charter such as protection of the liberty and right for equal treatment and a true democratic rule.

Mr Plodprasob further said that any official view of the party concerning the charter would have to be discussed in the party or, at least, in the executive committee. He suggested that the martial law be eased to allow political parties to hold meetings.

The Nation 15th November

The Pheu Thai Party yesterday advised the chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee of its willingness to meet with the CDC and provide input on the new charter.

The CDC had requested the party's cooperation.

But Pheu Thai expressed concerns over the National Council for Peace and Order's ban on political gatherings, saying it affected the party's ability to discuss the issue.

"The Pheu Thai Party is pleased to cooperate and take part in providing views regarding the drafting of the new constitution in order make it most democratic and in order [that the charter] can be a guarantee for justice for the country and people from all sides in accordance to what the party and the international community adhere to and accept," it said in a letter to the committee.

The party also urged the CDC to coordinate with the NCPO and the Election Commission to allow party members to meet in order to discuss the charter.

So there we have it, rather than ramrod711's skewed take on proceedings in an attempt to make political "points" where there are none to be made, what we actually have is, same story, same outcome, different media sources...............................

So, Pheu Thai WAS a bit peeved off after all

BTW I like your "If they send an "official" representative to meet the CDC they would be endorsing the process, hence no show." in the Plodprasob thread. Not easy to keep up with 'your' side zigzagging along, now its it ?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/776291-plodprasob-says-pheu-thai-will-not-join-charter-writing-process/page-2#entry8669129

Edited November 15, 2014 by rubl

[bangrak]

This is a personal call to be contacted by a Holywood scriptwriter: I have the perfect next sequel for the Batman saga! The main 'bad guy', called 'dwarf Plod', played by Mr Plodprasop, no grime needed: a wealthy (ill-acquired?) lunatic, self-imbued, clown, in one of his fits of anger, having been off-record called 'small idiot' by the President of the USA, after a drugged sleep in his padded walls bedroom, decides to take control over the all world, he locks up all the heads of State he had lured into watching his mega-show wherein he is playing the role of an ancient King, then he has all the environmentalist leaders being caught and emprisoned, 24/7 exposed to his insults blared out by big louspeakers, next he installs a huge fleet of towboats close to every main river delta in Asia to push the water of the rivers into the sea (in the movie, this would work) and blackmails all Western countries to hand him over their gold reserves, they don't react fast enough, so he has the towboats' engines started and the waterlevel starts rising, in New York, in London, in Amsterdam, in..., scenes of evacuation, children crying, people getting drowned, and then, then, ...Batman arrives in his new nuclear bat-speedboat, that can fly too... Get in touch for more details, the main actor (without a mask) has shown great interest in the concept...