Guesthouse - how to get high pressure, hot showers?

[simon43]

This problem has concerned me for years!

My first 10-room hotel had a water storage tank atop a 10-metre tower, into which water was automatically pumped (float switch) from our well. At the bottom of the water tower was a powerful pump that was gravity-fed from the storage tank, and thence via blue pipework to the guest-room instant water heater (IWH) showers.

The water pressure on the showers was high - so high that it regularly blew out the plastic pipe connections.

But the water flow rate was too fast to allow adequate heating of the water as it passed through the IWHs.

My next few hotels didn't have a water tower - the storage tank sits on the ground, automatically topped up from our well via well pump and float switch. An on-demand pump supplies cold water to the guest-rooms, where instantaneous water heaters are installed.

The water pressure is adequate (so long as the showerhead are regularly cleaned). But still the water flow rate is too fast to allow the heaters to adequately heat the water to 'hot' and not just warm.

Note that limitations on our 3-phase supplies mean that we cannot install more 'beefy' IWHs - we are limited to 3Kw units per room.

I really want to solve this problem - to provide hot water at an acceptable pressure, but without installing a hugely expensive system.

My thoughts are to preheat the shower water in a thermostatically-controlled, insulated water tank, (similar to the British bathroom systems).

That preheated water would then be piped to the IWHs, where some additional heating would occur.

I recall that the electricity bill for such an insulated water tank was not that high, once the water is up to temperature.

Does this sound a reasonable solution, and what's the best way to implement it? The insulated tank would need to be float-switch controlled, (or placed at the same height as the cold storage tank, so that the latter's float switch automatically ensured that the hot tank couldn't overfill/underfill).

Then an on-demand pump from the hot tank to the shower IWH supply pipes.

Sounds like a plan?? Advice is much appreciated.

[draftvader]

Why not use a solar heated tank and have a thermostatic mixer valve? Sure it will cost more to install but once in place you're off.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/products/thermostatic-mixing-valves-tmv

[steve187]

Why not use a solar heated tank and have a thermostatic mixer valve? Sure it will cost more to install but once in place you're off.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/products/thermostatic-mixing-valves-tmv

Would the solar system heat enough water, hot enough to mix with cold water for the tmv valve, for all the rooms.

OP

the insulated hot water tank, would have to have the capacity to supply all the rooms, if the cold water storage tank was situated above the height of the insulated hot water tank, it could gravity feed the hot water tank.

[casualbiker]

Why not have a small tank in the roof of each room that supplies the shower. Use a toilet float to automatically top it up. Flow would be gravity flow rate.

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

http://swimmingpoolsthailand.com/en/valves-unions/544-float-valve.html

Edited November 18, 2014 by casualbiker

[simon43]

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

I have thought about gas showers - about 5,000 baht from Thai Watsadu.

Does anyone have experience of gas shower heaters? Can they heat the water faster than electric IWHs?

[Anthony5]

In the civilized world eco-shower heads are available that use significantly less water, not sure if they are available in Thailand, but it wouldn't be a great cost to have them shipped over I guess.

[casualbiker]

http://www.grohe.com/th/

[casualbiker]

Reducing electric load.

http://eco-ledthai.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=50

[casualbiker]

More eco showers (I think)

https://m.facebook.com/NiklesShowersThailand?_rdr

[casualbiker]

I used a gas shower at a resort once .. it definitely will need to be fitted properly. It got VERY hot. But after a fiddle settled down!

[Anthony5]

More eco showers (I think)

https://m.facebook.com/NiklesShowersThailand?_rdr

That's the price of about 10 similar eco shower heads in Europe.

[casualbiker]

http://www.nikles.com/index.php/design/ecocomfort.html

[casualbiker]

More eco showers (I think)

https://m.facebook.com/NiklesShowersThailand?_rdr

That's the price of about 10 similar eco shower heads in Europe.

What is?

[Anthony5]

More eco showers (I think)

https://m.facebook.com/NiklesShowersThailand?_rdr

That's the price of about 10 similar eco shower heads in Europe.

What is?

Shower heads on that FB page hand held shower heads are listed at +3500 Baht. In my home country the local government once handed them out for free, but these days they are for sale anywhere below 10 Euro.

[casualbiker]

More eco showers (I think)

https://m.facebook.com/NiklesShowersThailand?_rdr

That's the price of about 10 similar eco shower heads in Europe.

What is?

Shower heads on that FB page hand held shower heads are listed at +3500 Baht. In my home country the local government once handed them out for free, but these days they are for sale anywhere below 10 Euro.

3,500b was for the complete rain shower system. Not just the shower head!

[simon43]

Hi Arjen, my storage tank is located in a room, so not in sunlight. So the rise in temperature within the tank is minimal. But the supply piping between the tank and my showers is in the sunlight. so when I start the shower, I get about 20 seconds of hot water from the heated water in the pipes. So certainly, heating by sunlight can help to raise the water temperature.

I had another look at the instant gas water heater in Watsadu. The cost is 5,00 baht.

As an initial test, I propose to install one gas water heater between the cold water storage tank and the shower supply pipe to 4 rooms. So when a shower is started, the gas water heater will heat up the water and the room IWH will also add a bit.

(The shower water temperature doesn't have to be extremely hot- just hotter than what I get now with my low-wattage IWHs.

That test will be easy for me to implement without making major pipework changes.

I can also add a second storage tank (as suggested), just for the shower supply, and located outside the water tank/tool-room in open sunlight.

[casualbiker]

Simon.. I know this is an older thread but I want to share an observation. I sometimes stay in a small Guesthouse. The bathrooms have different brand showers (mainly cheap and nasty ones) which are lukewarm to dribbling hot. Just recently they updated to these Panasonic showers : http://www.lazada.co.th/panasonic-dh-3jl2-3500-white-519430.html

Wow.. high pressure and hot.. night and day compared to the old ones. Might be worth getting one to try.. dunno what shower you have now!

Edited December 26, 2014 by casualbiker

[draftvader]

Simon.. I know this is an older thread but I want to share an observation. I sometimes stay in a small Guesthouse. The bathrooms have different brand showers (mainly cheap and nasty ones) which are lukewarm to dribbling hot. Just recently they updated to these Panasonic showers : http://www.lazada.co.th/panasonic-dh-3jl2-3500-white-519430.html

Wow.. high pressure and hot.. night and day compared to the old ones. Might be worth getting one to try.. dunno what shower you have now!

This is a 3,500w shower which is the standard issue. If your room supply will take it then you can get 6000w Panasonic (funnily enough I have one for sale...seriously though buy new). These are B5,500 - 6,000 depending on promotions, etc so might not fit into the solution.

You need to bear in mind the ambient temperature of their storage tank too. If they have a storage tank that is exposed to sunlight for most the day that will make the showers feel incredibly hot with no extra effort.

[lopburi3]

I agree that 3.5kw model has much better flow and heat than any other I have used. And have used about a dozen over the years. But I have seen someone say it was poor for them - but we have had for more than a year and very happy with it.

[casualbiker]

Simon.. I know this is an older thread but I want to share an observation. I sometimes stay in a small Guesthouse. The bathrooms have different brand showers (mainly cheap and nasty ones) which are lukewarm to dribbling hot. Just recently they updated to these Panasonic showers : http://www.lazada.co.th/panasonic-dh-3jl2-3500-white-519430.html

Wow.. high pressure and hot.. night and day compared to the old ones. Might be worth getting one to try.. dunno what shower you have now!

This is a 3,500w shower which is the standard issue. If your room supply will take it then you can get 6000w Panasonic (funnily enough I have one for sale...seriously though buy new). These are B5,500 - 6,000 depending on promotions, etc so might not fit into the solution.

You need to bear in mind the ambient temperature of their storage tank too. If they have a storage tank that is exposed to sunlight for most the day that will make the showers feel incredibly hot with no extra effort.

My point was that the 3.5kw showers are not ALL "standard " issue. Some are better, some are much better. Against all the 3.5 kW showers that I've tried here in Thailand (probably about 15 different). This one is night and day better than the others!

[pokerkid]

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

I have thought about gas showers - about 5,000 baht from Thai Watsadu.

Does anyone have experience of gas shower heaters? Can they heat the water faster than electric IWHs?

i have used the gas heaters from home pro (brand mazuma )for many years but i will use the brand rinai in the future because they are more reliable though slightly more expensive. Very hot water at high pressure and I use rainshowers . they also sell pro gasheaters for small hotels. You can install these heaters meters away from the rooms so the bathroom will also look a lot better without the typical thai style electric shower heater, Not even starting about the way some of these electric heaters are installed by some eletricians....

http://www.luckyflame.co.th/products/electric-shower.html

Edited January 3, 2015 by pokerkid

[harrry]

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

I have thought about gas showers - about 5,000 baht from Thai Watsadu.

Does anyone have experience of gas shower heaters? Can they heat the water faster than electric IWHs?

I think gas may have a problem in a guesthouse and add a potential safety risk with misuse.

[pokerkid]

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

I have thought about gas showers - about 5,000 baht from Thai Watsadu.

Does anyone have experience of gas shower heaters? Can they heat the water faster than electric IWHs?

I think gas may have a problem in a guesthouse and add a potential safety risk with misuse

the guests will not see or touch the gas heater they will only open the taps. when installed improperly any system can be hazardous especially an electric shower heating system when your standing right under it barefoot on a wet floor...

[harrry]

Though to be fair if you got crap electric. Why not have gas showers?

I have thought about gas showers - about 5,000 baht from Thai Watsadu.

Does anyone have experience of gas shower heaters? Can they heat the water faster than electric IWHs?

I think gas may have a problem in a guesthouse and add a potential safety risk with misuse

the guests will not see or touch the gas heater they will only open the taps. when installed improperly any system can be hazardous especially an electric shower heating system when your standing right under it barefoot on a wet floor...

if boxed in ventilation;...carbon monoxide, faulty ignition leading to gas leaks...and do not try to tell me they have cut offs.

[lopburi3]

I have used gas point of use heaters and never again - during normal weather had to block most of the gas jets to keep water from scalding (and it can easily do that). But when cold weather comes had to unblock one or two to get hot enough. Just very poor temperature control overall.

As for safety I knew enough to keep windows open - but every winter there were many deaths being reported from those that closed the bathroom and CO overcame them. Colorless, odorless, and tasteless Just deadly. Most people ditched them once electric became available.

[pokerkid]

I have used gas point of use heaters and never again - during normal weather had to block most of the gas jets to keep water from scalding (and it can easily do that). But when cold weather comes had to unblock one or two to get hot enough. Just very poor temperature control overall.

As for safety I knew enough to keep windows open - but every winter there were many deaths being reported from those that closed the bathroom and CO overcame them. Colorless, odorless, and tasteless Just deadly. Most people ditched them once electric became available.

The gasheaaters sold in thailand do NOT have to be installed INSIDE the bathroom so no danger of carbon monoxide poisoning. I have installed mine on an outside wall and the pipes lead to 2 bathrooms inside the house. it takes about 10 seconds for the hot water to get to the shower head.

In the bathroom i use a simple mix valve to regulate the temperature of the water like is done in almost all properly designed bathrooms.

Edited January 6, 2015 by pokerkid

[lopburi3]

The gas heaters sold in Thailand that I used were of the same type, point of use, as the electric heaters - that is what I was talking about. You can find tank type heaters as used in the west now but that will require new plumbing as well as areas for it to be installed. They also make great rockets when the pressure release valve fails. Not sure I would want to use in the land of no maintenance.

[Prapaexpert]

What i shold do is to make some central supply hot water tanks.

And make new pipes for the hot water if it is possible?

If not possible you can put smaller suplply heater (60 litre) tank in every room. And combinate them with the direct heated 3kw heater.

The thing with a supply heater tank is that you spread out the Electric use over the day and save the hot water in a tank without use to much Electric in the same time.

When the guest start to shower and the 3kw heater start. the electrician install something that Close the Power automatich to the suply heater tank. So they not can work on the same time.

If you have any more question about this you can call my Thai plumber Company Prapaexpert ( www.prapaexpert.com ) and ask for me (Janne) at Bangkok number 02 1054545 and Kun Golf who answer Telephone will connect tha call to me in Sweden.

Dont forget that Sweden is 6 hour after Thai time.

Me myself i am right now and take care my Swedish plumper Company until i come back to Bangkok in february 15.

[JDGRUEN]

Why not use a solar heated tank and have a thermostatic mixer valve? Sure it will cost more to install but once in place you're off.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/products/thermostatic-mixing-valves-tmv

Would the solar system heat enough water, hot enough to mix with cold water for the tmv valve, for all the rooms.

OP

the insulated hot water tank, would have to have the capacity to supply all the rooms, if the cold water storage tank was situated above the height of the insulated hot water tank, it could gravity feed the hot water tank.

I have been testing a DIY Solar Water Heater in my Ao Nang apartment. I used a spiral of water hose clad by two plastic coat wire screens. The coiled spiral is about 24 inches in diameter. I painted it black to absorb sunlight. In the afternoon it has been tested to supply water heated up to 43-44-45 C. The volume of water made available via the coiled hose is about 3 to 4 liters. I've set it to manually mix with unheated tap water to keep the temperature at a comfortable level while washing dishes in the sink. This test tell me that a larger system -- one with perhaps 3 panels in a triangle - feeding water to a holding tank with more coiled hose inside and bathed in water that I will have more than enough to take showers using a manual mixer. The holding tank will be a small black plastic trash can that will also be set in the sunlight.

I am going to be moving to Sing Buri in a week and will later set this system up and expand it as just described. I will report back with photos and tell of my experience.

Attached is two photos of my DIY single panel solar water heater made from water hose.

Edited January 8, 2015 by JDGRUEN