Why Does A Successful Intelligent Farang Marry A Bar Girl

[Sakeopete]

I don't see anything wrong with it in my opinion. If someone were to hang out in the circles of the rich and famous in Thailand, well then it may be difficult. However for "everyday" people, I don't see the problem. Prostitution in Thailand is usually and end to a means. Most of the girls don't rush to Bangkok and Pattaya to become prostitutes because they think it will be fun; most come to get money to support their FAMILIES. In America, most prostitution is to support a drug habit or lifestyle not to support a family. I think that many of these girls are forced into it by situation not by choice. I think it's totally unfair to judge all of them based on the mere fact that they're prostitutes. I believe it's very high minded to cast aspersions at the BG without doing the same for the customer. The way I see it, if a bargirl is worthy enough to be "rented", she should be worthy enough to be wedded. From what I've heard, most of the girls that show up from the Isaan, and it's their hope to meet a Farang, get married and go back home to the Isaan. Where is the quickest, and easiest place to meet a Farang in Thailand? Do the math and then figure out why there are so many BG in Thailand. I'm not naive enough to believe that is always the case. Many become hardened and turn into the girls that are written about, but I also believe that many retain their true identities and just want to marry and go home. I don't see the harm in that. There is a lot worse evil in the world.

I agree its easy for us to judge but we have never been in the same situation as the BG's. If you look back on history during the "Great Depression" and the "World Wars" many good women sold their bodies to provide for their families. Many good men also commited criminal acts for the same reason. For me its hard too look down on BG's in poor countries for if my situation changed I wouldn't think twice about doing distastful things for my family's survival.

[bkkmadness]

It you take Chiang Mai as an example I think it is about 300 baht per day. I would say the average Farang living in Chiang Mai spends 2000 baht per day. That is the equivalent of what 6 Thais spend. If 20,000 Farangs live in Chiang Mai and Chiang Mai has a population of 500,000 the Farangs spend 25% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai. Add 14,000 tourists a day times six and you have 41% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai are from non Thai sources.

A note to my technical editors. I just woke up and am only on my second cup of green tea so the numbers may be a little off. The population of Chiang Mai may be closer to one million and the number of Farangs living here may be closer to 40,000. I think the tourist figure of 14,000 is low because of the tremendous amount of busses I see coming in from China. Also the number of 2000 per day might be off on the tour groups.

So you quote a load of figures, then say those figures may be totally wrong. In which case why mention them in the first place?

In any event it is my gut feeling that tourism dollars in Chiang Mai are around 40% of the gross product of the city.

But you still manage to come up with an accurate percentage of how much revenue in Chiang Mai is farang generated. Oh sorry thats your gut feeling.

If you have accurate figures, quote them, if you are making up numbers in your head, why bother?

[meemiathai]

I don't see anything wrong with it in my opinion. If someone were to hang out in the circles of the rich and famous in Thailand, well then it may be difficult. However for "everyday" people, I don't see the problem. Prostitution in Thailand is usually and end to a means. Most of the girls don't rush to Bangkok and Pattaya to become prostitutes because they think it will be fun; most come to get money to support their FAMILIES. In America, most prostitution is to support a drug habit or lifestyle not to support a family. I think that many of these girls are forced into it by situation not by choice. I think it's totally unfair to judge all of them based on the mere fact that they're prostitutes. I believe it's very high minded to cast aspersions at the BG without doing the same for the customer. The way I see it, if a bargirl is worthy enough to be "rented", she should be worthy enough to be wedded. From what I've heard, most of the girls that show up from the Isaan, and it's their hope to meet a Farang, get married and go back home to the Isaan. Where is the quickest, and easiest place to meet a Farang in Thailand? Do the math and then figure out why there are so many BG in Thailand. I'm not naive enough to believe that is always the case. Many become hardened and turn into the girls that are written about, but I also believe that many retain their true identities and just want to marry and go home. I don't see the harm in that. There is a lot worse evil in the world.

I agree its easy for us to judge but we have never been in the same situation as the BG's. If you look back on history during the "Great Depression" and the "World Wars" many good women sold their bodies to provide for their families. Many good men also commited criminal acts for the same reason. For me its hard too look down on BG's in poor countries for if my situation changed I wouldn't think twice about doing distastful things for my family's survival.

Why is it so rare to see understanding posters here? I always thought before that farangs were a cleverer bunch of people until I found this website.

There we are another one who understands what reality is and is honest enough to say things out.

Nice post.

And you are from Canada, so not much of a surprise then.

[macb]

Think its time the moderators closed this topic.

There is no respect being shown here much for THai ladies

macb

[kerryk]

It you take Chiang Mai as an example I think it is about 300 baht per day. I would say the average Farang living in Chiang Mai spends 2000 baht per day. That is the equivalent of what 6 Thais spend. If 20,000 Farangs live in Chiang Mai and Chiang Mai has a population of 500,000 the Farangs spend 25% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai. Add 14,000 tourists a day times six and you have 41% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai are from non Thai sources.

A note to my technical editors. I just woke up and am only on my second cup of green tea so the numbers may be a little off. The population of Chiang Mai may be closer to one million and the number of Farangs living here may be closer to 40,000. I think the tourist figure of 14,000 is low because of the tremendous amount of busses I see coming in from China. Also the number of 2000 per day might be off on the tour groups.

So you quote a load of figures, then say those figures may be totally wrong. In which case why mention them in the first place?

In any event it is my gut feeling that tourism dollars in Chiang Mai are around 40% of the gross product of the city.

But you still manage to come up with an accurate percentage of how much revenue in Chiang Mai is farang generated. Oh sorry thats your gut feeling.

If you have accurate figures, quote them, if you are making up numbers in your head, why bother?

Statistics on tourism in Thailand are of the best guess variety. No one counts. No one knows the population of Chiang Mai. It is only an estimate. No one knows the amount of tourists coming to Chiang Mai.

I was looking into buying a bar here. I walked up and down the bar complex and counted all of the customers once an hour three days a week during three seasons.

I came to the conclusion that for the bar to be profitable it would have to have more than 50% of the traffic in the entire complex of 25 bars. Hardly a likely occurrence.

My numbers were only an estimate but it prevented me from buying the bar.

I looked at a couple of restaurants also counting the traffic in restaurants close by and the foot traffic at a number of times during the day to see if there was enough potential customers to generate a profit.

I live in an area next to two major hotels and on my way to breakfast and dinner I count the tour busses. I also try to figure out where the tour busses eat so I have an idea in my small area of the tourists in town at any given time. I also have made friends with the desk clerks at the hotels and they give me occupancy figures. This gives me a pretty good idea of seasonal traffic in broad terms.

To have an understanding of tourist dollars spent as compared to local dollars spent the GDP numbers are worthless. The best numbers I have been able to come up with are those done by counting in tourist areas.

I think 40% for Chiang Mai and probably 80% in Pattaya but if someone has a better estimate I am more than happy to hear it.

Tourism dollars for all of Thailand I have heard numbers from 10 to 20% however I feel this is low. I think 50% of Thailand are subsistence farmers and the only income is generated from the other 50% of the population. Real tourism dollars if resident ex pats are counted may be as high as 30%.

This of course is effected by the subject of this thread which is why I mention it.

[boppia]

Watch out here come the church ladies! Why are so many posters full of hate? Or is it jealousy from repression? If you don't like the way things are, support the leaders who will crack down on the freedoms you don't support.

George Bush is certainly against bargirls but the US government doesn't seem to be against them. The one thing I've always wondered about is why the US Navy has to land in Pattaya every year? Why Pattaya? Is it for the Burger King? Seems the US has not got problem with their young men getting some action in Thailand. There's no need to have Cobra Gold every year here. The question is what really is the golden cobra?

[geoffphuket]

Think its time the moderators closed this topic.

There is no respect being shown here much for THai ladies

macb

I'll second that - isn't it time these bar girl threads were closed?

[johnh101]

The question is what really is the golden cobra?

It should be renamed the "Red Raw One Eyed Trouser Snake"

[Plus]

I did not mean to compare sin sod to prostitution. I meant to imply that Thais are used to paying for women and that the stigma of prostitution is not the same in Thai culture as in Western culture.

It's not the same, it might be worse. They occasionally ban spaghetti tops, for godsakes. Good Thai girl must be chaste and pure and reserve herself for her husband. That has shifted for "true" love in recent years/decades, but it's nowhere near legalising prostitution.

Farangs say that they don't want to legalise prostitution because they are hypocrites, Thais say that it's not acceptable to the society. Who should you believe?

So, Kerryk, Bangkokians are not into prostitution, but the farmers are less well off. Yes, sure, the lower down the sociall ladder you go, the more available sex becomes, and you know how much Thais care about their social status.

[mbkudu]

Think its time the moderators closed this topic.

There is no respect being shown here much for THai ladies

macb

I'll second that - isn't it time these bar girl threads were closed?

I thought this was the reason www.bahtladies.com was created. Maybe the upper echelon here is trying to get back their high post counts and are letting things slide a bit. Much like how the police play with the closing times downtown .

[kerryk]

If the thread has had 6400 views in just a few days it is obviously a popular topic and of interest to a large number of readers. I guess much to the chagrin of self appointed censors.

[meadish_sweetball]

No, what we are doing is trying to provide a space for sensible discussion of a topic people have strong opinions about.

It is pretty obvious trolls gloat over the opportunity for winding others up, and also that several other posters who usually know how to behave, cannot handle a mature debate about this subject.

I have deleted several off topic posts from the last pages and I urge you all to think twice before you hit the Add Reply button.

Many of you are dancing close to the edge now. Think twice.

Also, if you feel somebody is posting something generally disrespectful, off topic or a personal insult, please use the report button.

Mods are not patrolling threads at all times, we rely on you to help us.

Thank you.

[geoffphuket]

If the thread has had 6400 views in just a few days it is obviously a popular topic and of interest to a large number of readers. I guess much to the chagrin of self appointed censors.

george has a different opinion http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77930

[Donz]

let me just pluck some figures like everyone else.

I say 0.1 % of Thai girls are prostitutes, 99.9999999999999% of the econmony is produced by the Thai's and the farangs make up 0.0000001 % of the population in Pattaya.

[Murf]

let me just pluck some figures like everyone else.

I say 0.1 % of Thai girls are prostitutes, 99.9999999999999% of the econmony is produced by the Thai's and the farangs make up 0.0000001 % of the population in Pattaya.

This information could come in useful, i'll make a note of it.

78% of the time i use a pen to take notes, but i cant find one so i'll use a pencil.

[MikeRay]

I met my wife, we liked each other, spent our time together to get to know us better and then decided to marry a year later. It was a job to make more money than she was able to in a regular job. She doesn´t work anymore, so why should I bother ?

[thaihome]

It you take Chiang Mai as an example I think it is about 300 baht per day. I would say the average Farang living in Chiang Mai spends 2000 baht per day. That is the equivalent of what 6 Thais spend. If 20,000 Farangs live in Chiang Mai and Chiang Mai has a population of 500,000 the Farangs spend 25% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai. Add 14,000 tourists a day times six and you have 41% of the dollars spent in Chiang Mai are from non Thai sources.

A note to my technical editors. I just woke up and am only on my second cup of green tea so the numbers may be a little off. The population of Chiang Mai may be closer to one million and the number of Farangs living here may be closer to 40,000. I think the tourist figure of 14,000 is low because of the tremendous amount of busses I see coming in from China. Also the number of 2000 per day might be off on the tour groups.

So you quote a load of figures, then say those figures may be totally wrong. In which case why mention them in the first place?

In any event it is my gut feeling that tourism dollars in Chiang Mai are around 40% of the gross product of the city.

But you still manage to come up with an accurate percentage of how much revenue in Chiang Mai is farang generated. Oh sorry thats your gut feeling.

If you have accurate figures, quote them, if you are making up numbers in your head, why bother?

Statistics on tourism in Thailand are of the best guess variety. No one counts. No one knows the population of Chiang Mai. It is only an estimate. No one knows the amount of tourists coming to Chiang Mai.

I was looking into buying a bar here. I walked up and down the bar complex and counted all of the customers once an hour three days a week during three seasons.

I came to the conclusion that for the bar to be profitable it would have to have more than 50% of the traffic in the entire complex of 25 bars. Hardly a likely occurrence.

My numbers were only an estimate but it prevented me from buying the bar.

I looked at a couple of restaurants also counting the traffic in restaurants close by and the foot traffic at a number of times during the day to see if there was enough potential customers to generate a profit.

I live in an area next to two major hotels and on my way to breakfast and dinner I count the tour busses. I also try to figure out where the tour busses eat so I have an idea in my small area of the tourists in town at any given time. I also have made friends with the desk clerks at the hotels and they give me occupancy figures. This gives me a pretty good idea of seasonal traffic in broad terms.

To have an understanding of tourist dollars spent as compared to local dollars spent the GDP numbers are worthless. The best numbers I have been able to come up with are those done by counting in tourist areas.

I think 40% for Chiang Mai and probably 80% in Pattaya but if someone has a better estimate I am more than happy to hear it.

Tourism dollars for all of Thailand I have heard numbers from 10 to 20% however I feel this is low. I think 50% of Thailand are subsistence farmers and the only income is generated from the other 50% of the population. Real tourism dollars if resident ex pats are counted may be as high as 30%.

This of course is effected by the subject of this thread which is why I mention it.

Though I marvel your retired lifestyle and would hope to emulate it someday (of course the wife may say something about that), I think it may skew your perception of the true nature of Thailand's economy. Maybe you should take a look at some of the data available here.. It might give you a wider perspective then a hotel room near Beach Rd. full fun ladies.

As an example, did you realize that Thailand is second largest exporter of pick-up trucks in the world? Virtually all of them are made right there near Pattaya. There are many other factories less then an hour from Pattaya, each one employing more 20-30 women then all the go-go’s and beer bars in Pattaya combined. Many of Thais working on the Eastern Seaboard choose to live in the Pattaya area and have nothing to do with the [sex]tourism industry.

Anyway, continue to have your fun, but try not to let it cloud your judgment of Thailand in general.

TH

[taxin]

let me just pluck some figures like everyone else.

I say 0.1 % of Thai girls are prostitutes, 99.9999999999999% of the econmony is produced by the Thai's and the farangs make up 0.0000001 % of the population in Pattaya.

This information could come in useful, i'll make a note of it.

78% of the time i use a pen to take notes, but i cant find one so i'll use a pencil.

[meadish_sweetball]

7 posts up there is a public warning in this thread: Link to post.

I suggest anyone who has not read it does so before posting.

Anyone who breaches the forum rules will see the consequences. Two posters have so far.

Forum Rules

Let's keep it civil from now on.

[OZONE]

First of all let me just say that I am only here to respond to this whole ridiculous debacle started with a claim made and backed by members here that 50% of Thai university students are prostituting. I know it's off topic but heck if my post gets it closed down then I'm fine with.

I just want you people to know that I'm already aware that after posting this I am going to get a hefty amount of responses that will say 1) I am in denial, 2) I misread/misinterpreted/misunderstood what was said earlier, or 3) I am one of the wh0res for posting. SO you guys can just cork it up and save us all from your usual ignorant opinions. I am not in denial, I have read all the freaking 16 pages and I am sure not selling myself after school despite me being a Thai born/raised/speaking/reading/listening/writing university student.

Now let's get to the point.

I was referred to this topic by a shocked Farang who seems to be one of the very few out there who actually realise that not all Thai girls are prostitutes. I am very well aware of that stereotype believe me I have been in numerous encounters with ignorant Farangs, both online and offline, who asked me for my price ever since I knew what a whore was. Ask any Thai girls out there, and I mean the ones that do not sell themselves for extra cash (Yes it's true people they do exist it's not only in mythology!), whether they have ever been approached by a farang asking for "companionship" and trust me they'll all synchronisingly say yes with a disappointed yet disgusted look on their faces.

Thai girls are poor, Thai girls are dumb, Thai girls "no sa-peek englid", and of course Thai girls are whores.

If that is the case, does that mean I don't exist?

Let's take a look at this in order.

Poor? My family, though not filthy, but pretty well off. Both of my parents are US educated, have their own business and are subordinate to no one.

Dumb? I am graduating in two months with 3.4 GPA with a bachelor degree from an English-instructed, internationally accredited university.

No Sa-peek Englid? My article on my faculty's senior thesis exhibition was recently (two weeks ago) published in Bangkok Post.

Lastly, whoring? Hmm.. I haven't been paid money by anyone in my entire life but my family - mom and dad usually do that monthly while other family members do it annually in December on my birthday. I occasionally get cash transfered from the bank and insurance company but that is it. And also I am not yet employed so that's that.

Some ignorant farangs may be thinking right now that, "well, your type is rare." Well define "rare". Let's say I have 100 friends. If I'm rare that means at most 10-15 of those friends are like me, or in other words, 85+ are those "stereotypical Thai girls". Well I can assure you that I know more than 100 Thai females and I can assure you that NONE of them are of those stereotypical Thai females.

What your statistics is saying about us is that 1 in every 2 girls you meet in Thailand will somehow let you sleep with her for money.

Do you know what you're teaching millions of other Farangs out there about us by saying this? Kat said it herself this is an open forum, meaning anyone anywhere can come in and read and enjoy this nice little forums. If someone who has never been to Thailand and never heard anything about it except for the cheap sex with young girls (thanks to you people), and he comes and sees this, it only proves the notion right.

So let's say one day that very guy who read this post is here trolling along Siam Square and somehow he gets this sudden urge to score a Thai university student. So along the street he thinks "oh well people say, with statistical support, that there's a chance for me farang to score a Thai chick, maybe I should just try it." Now let's say I and my other Thai female friend happen to be there shopping after our class at the university that very same day. The sexually deprived farang then sees us walking, he comes up to us with high confidence and asks, "how much do you charge?", does that mean, according to your statistics, my friend will give him her phone number with a price tag and working hours on it? 50-50 isn't it? I sure am not spreading.

I am not in denial. There are girls who sell themselves here in Thailand for whatever reasons. I see them everywhere with fugly, old, balding, white-hair, white-trashed, beer bellied, [insert farang insult here], men in restaurants, shopping malls, clubs, hotels, streets, EVERYWHERE so I am sure not blind. There are also university students who sell themselves on the side I am not denying that either but there is a difference and that difference is determined by where you get the statistics from in the first place. Kat I am not referring to your 'source' but I am referring to where, location-wise, the figures were obtained. ALL universities in Thailand? Public universities? Any girls in black-white university uniform?

If all of the universities in Thailand participated, the figures would have been MUCH lower. I'd say 1-5%. Public uni? Higher. Any girls in BW uni uniform? That uniform can be bought anywhere. Some places even store them out back with different university pins and belts so their girls can please different devient fetishes of their clients. The location where the statistics were obtained from does make a difference in the results so I am not doubting your 50% research. But if you do not know for sure whether the research was conducted in an unbiased way then you shouldn't be using this statistics to justify anything around here.

Thailand is famous for sex tourism that is for sure but that doesn't mean it is alright for people to assume that all girls in Thailand are somehow working in that industry. There is a difference between bar girls and Thai girls so it is definitely not alright for people to walk up to any girl they see in Thailand and ask for the price. Do you ever stop and think of how we non-hookers feel when we are branded as such? Imagine yourself as an African American being barred from a jewelry store. Imagine yourself as an Arab being refused to aboard a flight full of Americans. Now imagine yourself as a decent Thai university student from good family with the brightest future in front of her being asked to sleep with sweaty hairy smelly white guy for a price of a Christina Aguilera CD.

We're victims of the crime we do not commit nor condone and you all just keep rubbing it in our faces.

You people make Thai women feel dirty with your words. That's verbal rape.

And if Brad Pitt offered you a million dollars for a night on his yacht, would you make an exception Gnarly?

If the same offer would be accepted by a western ladies, does that make them them prostitutes? I'm sure the MAJORITY of female would accept that offered. So not a fair question to Gnarly is it?

[meadish_sweetball]

^That question is off topic and bordering on a personal insult. I suggest we dont go further down that road.

[Simbo]

Well i married a bar girl and i did so because i'm obviously sad and desperate.

What is this bullshit stigma attached to "bargirls"?

Agreed

[britmaveric]

I was only trying to point out to the posters who frowned on Farangs marrying bar girls that paying for women was widespread in Thai culture.

Using prostitutes and marrying them are two vastly different things. Yet from Kerryk view of sin sod it appears that he meant sin sod, not prostitution, though from Kerryk view of sin sod it appears that he sees no difference between them.

BTW, have you sen the car park at that MBK where every second girl will sleep with you for 500 baht? For every floor there are two levels in the car park, usually full, and it's not even free.

Bangkok standard is that a family should have a house and a car, and, judging by official registration papers, there IS a car for every two voters here, i.e husband+wife. And 80% own houses. Every Bangkokian girl expects to marry a man, build a family, buy a house, a car, have children, and be "successful" in her life, and vast majority of them actually succeed.

A prostitute, BG or karaoke girl, doesn't matter, has no chance at it whatsoever, no one would even marry her, let alone provide her with a house, and her children will never know who their farthers were. Why would a Bangkok girl chose that way of life? If anyone actually does it, they surely don't tell it to their families - it's a major failure in life.

There are plenty of prostitues in Thailand, true, but they are outcasts, they are not part of society as Thais want to see it. You may argue that they should be accepted, perhpas as equals, but it's not going to happen any time soon. So they recruit new cadres from similar outcasts, people with no other future, not from the mainstream society.

Many people here mentioned the reaction of Thai girls to the idea of sleeping with farangs. It's easy to understand if they have a stereotype that a farang would marry a whore. They generally don't want to know if men visit prostitutes, what their reaction would be to someone who marries a whore and parades her around for everyone to see? That's a major lack of manners, taste, understanding of Thai culture and so on. They might also think that these men do not deserve them, as they don't value chastity (if not virginity).

Why "intellegent" farangs do it? Sex, lots of it, and care, and the ability to live with ex-whores without being publicly ostracised, and the ability to convince themselves that it's normal Thai practice and 50% of Thai women are for sale. I don't know it's what they call "intellegent" though.

That is the best post so far and is totally accurate

It's not the prevailing view of most thai(s) I'm afraid.

[Plus]

Most Thais where? Kerruk used the word yuppies. In Bangkok nearly EVERY family has a house and a car, not counting motocycles. There are plenty of singles in Bangkok who have houses and cars, too, it's totally doable. Girls who decide to prostitute themselves are outcasts here, they have no prospects in life, no hope of finding a decent husband, decent job, and they are aging everyday. How do you think the "yuppies" look at them? No respect whatsoever. It might be different in Pattaya due to their sheer numbers.

The best exit for them is to find enough money to start a litle shop or a beauty salon somewhere where no one knows their past.

The first google result on toursim statisics returned this: there were over 13 mil tourists in Thailand last year and they spend total of 450 bil baht. Thai GDP is about 7 trillion, so direct tourist spending accounts for less than 7%. (these money gets recycled many times so the total contribution is much higher than that).

Edited August 7, 2006 by Plus

[britmaveric]

Last I checked most of the population resides not in BKK. Who gives a fk what these Yappies think - they'd look down on them regardless of what they did - if you arent one of them your shi*e anyways.

-hardly outcasts, and they have great prospects of finding a husband and having a rich/rewarding life.

Edited August 7, 2006 by britmaveric

[bkkmadness]

It's not the prevailing view of most thai(s) I'm afraid.

What is the prevailing view of most Thais towards girls in the 'trade' Brit?

Edited August 7, 2006 by bkkmadness

[Plus]

Unfortunately it's Bangkokians and "yuppies" that set cultural standards in Thailand. And since when chastity has become exclusive to "yuppies" only. You are not saying that prostitutes dictate what is acceptable and what is not in the society. Many a farang think so, many wish it was so, but it isn't.

[britmaveric]

Bkk - when it gets down to it, they could care less.

[britmaveric]

Unfortunately it's Bangkokians and "yuppies" that set cultural standards in Thailand. And since when chastity has become exclusive to "yuppies" only. You are not saying that prostitutes dictate what is acceptable and what is not in the society. Many a farang think so, many wish it was so, but it isn't.

Chastity??? Same people you point out as good examples are shagging away themselves. People are people doesnt matter what station you hold in life - you are no better than the rest.

[bkkmadness]

Bkk - when it gets down to it, they could care less.

But if you surveyed 100 Thai people about this, what would you imagine they would say?