Bisexuality

[noctiluca]

Hi,

I have a dilemma, or rather concern, about one of my closest friends. I wonder if, perhaps, those out there who are, or who have direct experience, could help me understand something about bisexuality.

First of all, I believe people come in all different shapes, sizes, races, ethnic backgrounds, religions, and even sexualities. I have no doubt there are many bi-s out there, mentally and physically. What you do with your sex life is your business, as long as it is between consenting adults, and nobody gets harmed in the process.

My friend and I began as friends in our college years. We hung out in the same loose circle. In fact, it was him who asked me point blank one day if I was gay. Back then, sexuality was not so much something people discussed, even among friends. The most you hear would be from gossiping. In hind sight, I was very much closeted, and I was alarmed and panicked when he asked me. That day, the first time in my young adult life, I gave in and admitted the truth to someone. (He is not the first one to know; I have another best friend from my middle-high school year whom I really trust.) I prepared to be chastised, but he told me he understood and still accepted me as friend. I longed for someone who accepted me the way I was, for whom I was, without sexual labeling, so we became close and our friendship developed since then. He told me he was str8, besides he was a devout practicing Buddhist so I took his word for it.

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[noctiluca]

When we almost graduated, I told him I decided but still was afraid to tell my parents, but he adamantly disagreed and discouraged me from doing so. Now, I realize this is how he views sexuality. In our senior year, I later learned, he hung out much more often with his circle of friends who lived in university dorm. Most of them are behaviorally, sexually ambiguous, to say the least. Some even outright dressed up as women. He insisted they were just friends, but always found juicy details to tell me about them.

Until a few years after graduation, I learned that he stepped back from his usual religious practice, and had a sexual relationship with one of his dorm friends (who dressed up). He then admitted to me he was a bi, although he did not confide to many people, in other word, he was not an openly bi. He told me mentally he always wanted to get married some day. A few years later, I learned more (again) that he had been having sexual relationships with countless men, to the extent that he told me it was over a hundred, so I surmised that it was probably just sexual acts, not relationships. I was quite surprised (and more likely naive) back then to hear that he was sexually active, given his attitude. As far as I knew, he never had any relationship with a female.

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[noctiluca]

When I was abroad, he wrote to me that he had a boyfriend, an Aussie, but it seemed to be an unstable relationship. They broke up and he fell for a Belgian guy. The Belgian didn’t fall for my friend, as much as he did, so it didn’t last long. Then he got back together with his Aussie again. They later went to live together at the guy’s house in The Land of Down Under for a few years. Since my friend had wanted a family, including kids, they even considered adoption together. I realized then, by his behaviors, he was not str8 or bi, he must have actually been gay!

Anyway, unfortunately, their relationship was a very tumultuous one. (They both had their own problems, and they were non-monogamous.) They broke up, and it was not pretty. My friend got very disillusioned by this turn of event. Luckily, for him, he had already got a permit to work in Australia. One day, out of the blue, he called and told me, he was going to marry a woman, who lived in Thailand. They met for only a few months back, and had been communicated through chats and emails since. He told me he liked this girl and it was time for him to build a family. I was alarmed, not because I didn’t want my friend to be happy, but because I felt he was just running away from who he was, in hope that the “straight” family would be able to give him what he wanted. I advised him to think it through thoroughly, and not to rush into wedding, but it was too late. The wedding was already planned and invitations sent out. I asked him point blank if he was going to tell this innocent woman who knew nothing about his past relationships. He did not believe in digging up the past when it was only between him and her. I told him there was no such thing as secret. I strongly advised him to at least talk to his future bride-to-be, to see what her attitude on this subject, and if possible tell her the truth. I believed, in this case, the honesty was needed, but he disagreed. They got married anyway. I sent them a wedding gift but did not attend their wedding. Now she lives with him in Australia.

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[noctiluca]

That was a few years back. I accepted what’s done is done. I never talked about that again, until he came to visit me in Thailand this year. He did not come with his wife due to they had to alternate their time in LOS, since they trusted nobody to look after their business in TLODU. He rarely mentioned about his wife. He only talked when I initiated the conversation, and even then, he appeared not wanting to provide much information. It was as if, between us, she did not exist. It was as if he tried to compartmentalize his life or something. He would mostly like to enjoy what we used to discussed, which were mainly anything and could not escape from sexuality issues, as if he could not find an outlet to speak for so long, with someone he trusted. He had other friends, especially gay/katoey friends (although publicly he did not want many people to know), but he felt he could not talk to them as much as with me. Perhaps, I was less critical of him. He told me one of his gay friends even severely condemned him for getting married. He was very upset about that, and they could no longer touch this subject, seeing eye to eye. I finally told him, again, that I agreed with his friend, but did not push him further on this subject. He did not seem to understand, or perhaps chose not to, what was wrong with this picture. The point is my friend took away his wife’s choice, and I am afraid one day this secret will rear its head, and how ugly and nasty it might turn out to be. (He believes, as long as he makes her happy and provides for the family, it should be ok. To me, this is a different subject.)

This is where the problem or concern is for me. I felt that I couldn’t say much. I tried to skirt around anything remotely touching sexual subjects, when I was with him. Perhaps, I was a bit paranoid or something. I felt, since he chose his path (and he should have committed to that path), I should have not tempted him with “the other side”. The hardest part was, I guess since he trusts me, he was usually the one who initiated this kind of conversations, and I was the one trying to change to other subjects. It is kind of strange really that he is now born-again Buddhist. He became devout again, but he still could not detach himself from carnal desires. It became so difficult for me that I told him I did not want to discuss these subjects with him, but he told me not to worry about it. He reminded me that he was a bisexual, neither str8 nor gay. If he was fine to discuss it, I should be, too. (And that’s when I told him how I felt about his marriage.)

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Edited August 7, 2006 by noctiluca

[noctiluca]

For those who may wonder, no, I am not secretly in love with my friend, or something like that. I only care for him in non-sexual way. I am not attracted to him sexually, and, I believe, vice versa. And the conversions I had with him, mentioned above, are not about sex talks; it encompasses broader issues, like gay political/social issues, etc.

(Sorry that it is such a long post. I had to break it up to make it easier to read.)

What I would like to know is: am I doing this appropriately? Was I out of bound to tell him what I thought about his marriage? Am I being too paranoid, or thinking too much to limit myself from conversing with him about anything? Is he really a bi? Could my friend be a bi who leans more toward str8? Would a bi hide him/herself the same way a gay is in the closet? Is he sincere and honest with himself? The last one is probably not my business, huh?

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, noctiluca, for a great story, but not a happy story.

The following is just my opinion, after trying to be str8t and now being gay, and maybe being bisexual somewhere along the way.

People often don't understand their own sexuality, including where they fall along the long line of straight-bi-gay. They move along that line, perhaps even back and forth, during their lives. They don't know how to describe it so that even a good friend understands.

For all of us farang who think that all of Thai culture embraces gay behavior, there must be a whole lot of Thais who would say otherwise. The culture pressure to get married and make grandchildren is intense, almost ruthless. Being gay in Thailand is tolerated, but apparently most Thais don't approve of it, and maybe that's the Thailand your friend is from. Although Thailand never was colonised, Victorianism seems to still be alive here.

Good luck. Try to keep your friendship with this guy; you may be the only one who knows the story well. Personally, I feel sorry for his wife, for not knowing. But maybe she kinda knows, and just doesn't say.

[Ijustwannateach]

Great story, Noctiluca, many thanks for that.

If he is truly your friend, it is your duty to give him advice that may help him, as long as you are not meddling in a way that takes matters out of his hands or ruins some other relationship of his. I don't see anything wrong with your telling him what you think. It's always a risk to tell people difficult things that they may not want to hear, but if he knows you care about him, he shouldn't be upset if you do this sometimes. I have some friends who give me advice I don't want to hear from time to time, or even don't accept, but I appreciate them speaking their real mind and giving me something else to think about. He should feel lucky to have someone he can still talk with about his past without endangering his present.

As far as his wife's opinion or knowledge of his past, that's his affair and hers. Presumably, if she cares, she's done enough background work to know about him or simply asked him directly, and accepted that what was past lies in the past. Heaven knows if I objected to dating anyone who had a past, I'd be pretty lonely on Friday nights and a hypocrite to boot!

If she doesn't care (to know), that could be her conscious decision and it's not your place to question it, I think.

If he was consciously deceiving her and you were sure about this, I still don't think it is a good idea for you to interfere. Maybe things are fine anyway, as you say- and maybe he just doesn't think the relationship would survive such scrutiny. The best case if you interfere is probably that you lose your friend and he loses his wife. Is this result worth the effort?

There are a lot of men I know who were straight in their youth, had wives and children and everything. Then they either discovered something new or something old in themselves, and became gay. I see no reason why the other direction isn't equally possible. Let your friend have his family in peace. Maybe if he doesn't sense your disapproval, he will also open up more to you about his feelings.

"Steven"

[noctiluca]

Sorry for being MIA. I haven't seriously connected to the Net for the past week, even at work. It is pretty much a foreign company, so they have stricter rule for Net usage than Thai's. I don't like to risk crossing that line often.

Anyway, back to the topic, thank you all for your responses. You were right on, PeaceBlondie, about the Victorianism in Thai culture. I have been thinking about that before. The aristocratic or "Phu Dee" values from Victorianization during the early modernization of Thailand (ironically in an attempt to avoid colonization), I believe, is also to blame for what prevents Thais from truly accepting homosexual lifestyle. Funny, though, it seems to affect more people in the upper / highly educated class than the lower class. Perhaps, it is that "face" thing again in Thai culture. I guess they have more "to lose".

And for you, Ijustwannateach (were/are you teaching at some point?), I have no intention to interfere with my friend's life at all, or not anymore. I think I said my peace (or piece???). If his wife is known to be ok with it, then it is fine. The problem is whether she knows and whether she wants to know. What even makes me concerned is my friend attempt to go for an extra mile to conceal this part of his life from her. Sometimes it is just too much for me to see or hear about it, because instead of burying it, it makes him more suspicious. I am just afraid for him sometimes. You are correct, though, that it is their businesses. Believe me, I don't want to get involved, especially if it turns nasty.

My point, however, is in regard to how I should behave or act when we are together. Should I completely be myself in conversations or actions? Talk about anything including something like whether I think that cute guy over there is sexy and attractive? Maybe, I am naive, but would this distract him or entice him back to "the other side"? Or should I reserve or hold that part of me and talk about something else? (Which in reality is not working well, since he is the one who usually try to steer our conversations to "it".) Is this normal for a closeted bisexual to want to talk about gay stuff with his friends? I mean if his conversations also involves str8 sexuality, monogamy aside, like he thinks that girl is hot, then it would be a different matter, but not that I know of. Sometimes, I try to steer towards his relationship with his wife, for example, how their life is, how was the honeymoon, etc., but he usually, or unusually, keeps mum, or talks as if it is really nothing interesting to talk about. (Not that I would enjoy that subject too much, but I think general family/life questions would include in friends' conversation, wouldn't it?) Or perhaps, we are not that close friends at all like we want to believe we are??

[Ijustwannateach]

I think if you really wanted to be a friend to this guy, you should be a listening ear for him. You can express to him that you think he is not doing the right thing, but he has done it and if you want to be his friend you have to accept it. I think you need to make the decision for yourself about whether or not you can accept your friend's actions, and then either be his friend (completely) or not based on that. If what he has done is too deceptive for you to accept, then you should stop talking to him altogether, about sexuality or anything else. It sounds to me, though, like he could use the help and the conversation, because he may be very confused.

Since you say he compartmentalizes the conversation, I'm assuming that when you're alone with him you'd be welcome to admire all the cute guys you want. However, he's a closet case- so when you're in public, if you want to remain friends with him, you're going to have to pretend he's straight and not make comments that others would be surprised to hear you make to a straight man. Again, you have to decide if this is ok with you or not and base your continued friendship with the guy on that.

I can see this isn't an easy dilemma for you. I can't put myself in your exact position, but I think I'd be inclined to try to be a listening ear and support for my friend, even if I didn't approve of everything he was doing.

"Steven"

P.S. I have done a little teaching in my time, yes.... You can catch me over in the teaching subforum as well!

[Scott]

I have had a few similar friends. I just try to remain steady and let them do their own thing--there isn't a lot you can do, people have to realize things for themselves. Helping them prevent a disaster is about the most you can do and that isn't easy.

[noctiluca]

Yeah. I have come to my resignation that there is probably not much I could do. I could be his ears and that's it. It's only get irritated sometimes when he seems to be more or less "consumed" with gay related conversations (like he thinks this and that person is gay, queenie, etc.) when he has already chosen his str8 life. It confuses me which one of him is his life.

Maybe, this could be more about my problem than his, huh? I admit, when I first heard that he would be married, I felt kind of lost and betrayed. It's like I lost one of my strongest allies to the other side. Do you know what I mean?

[Trouble]

Hi, Just a footnote to all the replys here. I once met a wonderful Chinese guy from KL. He and I had a brief fling while he was visiting here in Los Angeles. We stayed in touch thru letters in those days. I managed to visit him 2 or 3 times in Malaysia. Then a time came where neither he nor I travelled much and we only had infrequent communication once or twice a year. Some years back he had a very bad accident and wrote to me from the hospital. I of course immediately called him to see how he was doing. Over the course of the next year I called him a number of times after he was home again. At one point a woman answered the telephone and I asked him who it was. He told me it was his wife. As it turned out he was married when we met. Since then he and I have had many conversations about our paths in life. He married due to social pressures. I was his one and only gay love affair. He has told me many times he truely should have been gay but did "the proper thing" in getting married and having a son. I could not be happier for this guy. We have known each other for over 25 years and had a wonderful love affair of sorts. He is truely happy in his marriage and with his son. As he grows older with his injuries from the accident he is cared for by a loving wife and son who know nothing of his friendship with me. My point here is that if your friend did make his decision because of social pressure and is content and hopefully happy in his relationship with his wife then let him be. He will always probably have sexual urges toward men. Hopefully he is truely bisexual and finds sex with his wife to his liking also. His life will take its course and you can only be on the sidelines. Just be a good listener. It probaby makes you uncomfortable that in someways he is decieving his wife but his life with men is hopefully in the past and his focus is on the present even if he does talk about gay subjects now and then. Hopefully he will not even make the mistake of letting his wife know about his past as it would no doubt hurt her a great deal. So just be supportive and non judgemental, he is your friend.

[noctiluca]

I know it's been a while on this topic. I just have a few further stories to add about my friend.

Believe me. Now I just let him be. I no longer want to give him my opinion about his sex life, since it is none of my business, although, personally, I still have a strong feeling that his matrimonial relationship does not exactly give him what he dreams of, or it is where his desire is.

Like I said before, whenever we hang out, more than half of our conversations would be, one way or another, steered towards same sex subjects, mostly initiated by him. My guess it is probably a way for him to vent his desire subconsciously, and it is also because I am the only one he trusted more than others to comfortably have homosexual-related conversations. I am sure if he is truly a bisexual as he claims, he would at least mention his sexual attraction to the female sex to me as well, but I have yet to hear a single word, except that he told me he is (bisexual).

A funny thing is whenever he wants to talk gay "stuff", and we happen to be in public, he would switch to speak in English, so that no one will understand. Hello??? A lot of Thais now can speak and understand English! (Or at least they know Thinglish!)

I don't know if I have mentioned this before. One time a few months ago, when he gave me a ride in his car, he got a call from one of his male friends, whom he confided to me that he once had a crush on. My friend hoped to meet the guy later that night (after they haven't met in person for a long time). While he was talking on the phone, I spoke softly and quietly to help giving him direction. I guess the guy on the phone probably overheard my voice and asked my friend if he was with a girl or something along the line. My friend vehemently denied it, as if caught doing something wrong. He later admonished me for sounding like a girl (and made his friend misunderstand), and that I should try to speak manly. I was caught off guard by his temperament. Well, the meeting being called off probably had something to do with it!

I am not sure if this is the norm for marriage life but he complained a lot about his wife. It seems she could do nothing that is good enough, mostly about their social life or business venture. One time after his conversation with her on the phone, he cursed or "bad-mouthed" her with strong words, which could be offensive to some (something along the line of "stupid and retarded"). I was surprised by strong choice of words he used about her. My guess this is normal for husband and wife when they have rocky relationship from time to time???

What seems very contradictory about this, to me, is that my friend strongly believes in fortune. He seeks a lot of advice from fortune tellers. He is convinced that his "Duang" (or fate in English?) is supported by that of his wife, and that they will never get divorced. In other word, it is not written in his fate that he will ever experience a divorce. I hope this is good for him?

Another thing that makes me uncomfortable sometimes is that he often jokes that I am like a "Mia Noi" (minor wife) or "gig" or whatever you want to call it, to him. That kind of scares me. (He chastised me often for not dating anyone.) He probably views me more of a close confidant than his wife and gets confused. He is not my type and that would ruin our friendship. Hopefully, he really means it as a joke.

Anyway, he is my friend and, apart from what I said, still has some other good qualities. He may not understand and support me in every choice I made, but he stood by me in hard times.

He is coming back again in March, so I may have something more to update then. If there is still anything worth updating, or if it is still worth reading, that is.

Thanks for reading and share your opinions and experiences.

Edited February 18, 2007 by noctiluca

[mike18]

nice story.. i think this guy not a friend!

Edited March 8, 2007 by mike18

[jumnien]

He sounds hopelessly self-centered to me! Lots like him... Sorry for the wife.

[ProThaiExpat]

What come through strongly from your posts, OP, is that your friend is controlled by societal pressures and he seeks your company as an escape valve for his gay orientation.

Much of his behaviour seems to indicate that he is living a life he feels he must due to influences other than his own. Those who have "come out" can relate to what it was like when they were in the "closet" and living a life they thought society, their parents, et.al required of them.

Yes, perhaps this guy was more free in earlier days and has now chosen the "closet" for whatever reason, double difficult for him since he experienced more of his true nature before and now can only remember his freedom rather than live it now. A prison none the less.

You serve as an important outlet for his gay feelings and in that regard, follow his lead and "butch it up" for him when it seems that is what he wants of you.

During my closet years, most who knew otherwise, went along with my self deception as an act of kindness and I never had anyone accost me with the truth, even though many later told me they knew and amazed me with their preceptions of reality, when I was so self delusional.

[toptuan]

Unique to Asia: For every one gay guy, I find five gays closeted as "bi's". I think part of it is the refusal to face that they are, indeed mostly gay. The other side of the coin is, of course, societal pressure to get married and have a family--which is MUCH stronger in the East than the West. A number of very good Asian or Asian-related movies such as "The Wedding Banquet," explore these same issues entertainingly yet sensitively.

[robkooy]

Hi, Just a footnote to all the replys here. I once met a wonderful Chinese guy from KL. He and I had a brief fling while he was visiting here in Los Angeles. We stayed in touch thru letters in those days. I managed to visit him 2 or 3 times in Malaysia. Then a time came where neither he nor I travelled much and we only had infrequent communication once or twice a year. Some years back he had a very bad accident and wrote to me from the hospital. I of course immediately called him to see how he was doing. Over the course of the next year I called him a number of times after he was home again. At one point a woman answered the telephone and I asked him who it was. He told me it was his wife. As it turned out he was married when we met. Since then he and I have had many conversations about our paths in life. He married due to social pressures. I was his one and only gay love affair. He has told me many times he truely should have been gay but did "the proper thing" in getting married and having a son. I could not be happier for this guy. We have known each other for over 25 years and had a wonderful love affair of sorts. He is truely happy in his marriage and with his son. As he grows older with his injuries from the accident he is cared for by a loving wife and son who know nothing of his friendship with me. My point here is that if your friend did make his decision because of social pressure and is content and hopefully happy in his relationship with his wife then let him be. He will always probably have sexual urges toward men. Hopefully he is truely bisexual and finds sex with his wife to his liking also. His life will take its course and you can only be on the sidelines. Just be a good listener. It probaby makes you uncomfortable that in someways he is decieving his wife but his life with men is hopefully in the past and his focus is on the present even if he does talk about gay subjects now and then. Hopefully he will not even make the mistake of letting his wife know about his past as it would no doubt hurt her a great deal. So just be supportive and non judgemental, he is your friend.

Malaysia is very hard on gay people. It is no wonder he is married.

greetings Rob Kooy

Edited March 10, 2007 by robkooy