Has Thailand finally killed the golden goose?

[craigt3365]

Tourist arrivals are down quite a bit in Vietnam also. The world economy isn't very good right now...and I'm sure the mess here also isn't helping.

[simon43]

But what I did notice is new hotels, condos and guest houses everywhere

I agree - there is an oversupply of accommodations (hotels, guesthouses, private condos etc) for tourists, certainly in Phuket.

With websites like Airbnb, where private condos can be advertised fro short-term rent, the tourist has many choices where to stay.

(I think the short-term condo rental contravenes the Law BTW - only licences hotels/guesthouses are allowed to offer short-term rentals).

For example - In my previous comment, I mentioned that there are 30 or so 'hotels' listed on booking.com in my area. I remember when that figure was just 5 hotels...

The tourist numbers in Phuket have not changed that much over the years, (yes, the demographics have changed ==> now Asian and Russian tourists). So the average number of room bookings per hotel has decreased over the years as more businesses chase the same pool of potential customers.

So those customers can also afford to be choosy about where they stay and for how much.

All this is not good news for the tourism business...

Unless there is suddenly a huge upturn in tourist arrivals, (unlikely), then it is realistic that many of these accommodation businesses will go to the wall.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next low season, (sorry - green season....)

[MrWorldwide]

You can add Pattaya to that list.

Without a fail, News Year is already booked out.

In one my hotels, we only have 2 bookings over that period.

At the moment(which is high season) the same hotel is only half booked and its doing great, because 1 hotel next door has only 2 rooms out of 14 and another 9 rooms out of 75

Expedia provides some marketing tools to see market movement etc.

Current bookings for 2-2.5 star hotels market average is 31 bookings per month. Its laughable.

Thanks for that - I can only speak to the segment of Pattaya that I'm familiar with and that's the nightlife precinct. No idea how that's reflected in hotel occupancy rates as I dont believe the majority of tourists in 2014 have much interest in Pattaya after midnight - happy to hear otherwise.

If my only experience of Pattaya post-midnight was these pages and the odd foray to Central World, I could easily agree with some of the doomsayers - fortunately, it isnt. For some, that will be cause for hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth - 'another quality retiree' yada yada - all I can say is that I spend money on everything from audio to travel right here in Thailand and my opinions are all based on firsthand experience, not something I read on a forum. if that makes me a barfly, so be it - I just want to make it clear that I dont simply park my carcass in the same bar night after night and order the proverbial bottle of Chang. My wallet would thank me, but that would be right up there with staying home and watching Thai TV on the excitement scale.

if I could use a single word to describe crowds in various bars over the last few weeks, it would be patchy - last night was the deadest I've EVER seen Buakhow and the pathetic attempts to generate some life in Soi Made In Thailand via parties were complete fizzers from where I was sitting, but the previous night there were bars in Soi Diana and LK Metro where the balloon chasers were out in force - in some cases, not a spare seat to be seen. Saturday night was a similar story - massive party on Buakhow and even MiT had a party that I thought was crowded (not difficult in those small bars, admittedly, but the Buakhow bar was a monster by beer bar standards with over a hundred people).

Moving on to Walking Street in the early hours of Tuesday morning and the street itself was pretty much dead - the Chinese tourists must have all been tucked up in bed by then - but it was a completely different story inside I-Bar : as we waded through two packed floors of (mostly) under-35s, I remember thinking 'Where the hell are all these young Farang during the day ?'. Granted, its a major freelancer hangout but between 2 and 4am I estimate that there were at least a thousand people in that club, and roughly 60% were male. No aggro, no-one staggering around / throwing up etc - with the exception of the ear-splitting doof-doof, it was a surprisingly good venue.

OK, so a couple of nights does not a high season make, and perhaps we'll never get back to the high seasons of old - as someone who has to deal with the traffic already being generated by the Thais I'm not entirely averse to that possibility. Having spent plenty of time in the nightlife precinct right through this epic low season, I like to think I have a slightly better understanding of what attracts the available punters - the people actually willing to buy a beer and/or meal as opposed to the gawkers wandering up and down WS.

1. Location - check out the big bar at the Beach Road end of Soi 8 any afternoon from about 3pm. Consistently good numbers even when the other bars in Soi 8 are dead.

2. Knowing your market - the Australian bar owners who've gone to the trouble of making the football codes (AFL, NRL, Intl' Rugby) available for their customers have been rewarded with consistently good turnouts, even with the slide in the our dollar. How many bars have you walked past that are content to play nothing more riveting than a Thai soap or - worse - something insanely banal like a wildlife doco. Just turn those TVs off and leave them off if you cant tailor the content to your customer base

3. Actually giving a crap about repeat business - if you're going to hire girls who do nothing more than sit at the bar engrossed in their smartphones, why bother ? This is where pool tables actually make a difference, IMO - they get people interacting beyond the 'One drink for me ?' stage. The attitudes of many in the bars is a topic which has been discussed on various fora at length so I'll leave it there. I prefer venues with live music, but the quality varies immensely - I may have reached my limit on the number of times I can listen to 'Highway to Hell' and not run screaming into the Soi.

None of the above is rocket science, but I think the days of simply hiring a few girls and sitting back waiting for the baht to roll in are gone - bar owners either differentiate themselves from the bar on either side of theirs or pray for a miracle. I know a couple of Farang bar owners who've already cashed in their chips and cut their losses, but the Thais seem willing to grind it out - just not sure that having a 'me too' party and juicing the girls up on cheap rotgut is a formula for instant success. What worked on Saturday night clearly wasnt working last night, but that's showbiz. Tonight could be very different, but any suggestion that Pattaya doesnt have (potential) customers makes me laugh - it just doesnt have an endless supply of middle-aged men prepared to sit in cookie-cutter bars with disinterested women or even men dressed as women, although Stickman would probably disagree with me on that last claim. Stick, I'll have to defer to you on all matters relating to Katoey bars - it's just not my area of expertise

Happy to discuss any of the above with those who actually leave the safety of their homes to sample what's on offer in Pattaya after dark - considerably less so with the moral minority on this board. This isnt about prostitution or the evils of the demon drink - it's about whether or not Thailand can still attract tourists. I believe it can, even in a destination as cliched as central Pattaya, but its going to take a few attitudinal changes. I have no desire to see the beer bars replaced by condos and boutique shopping centres, but I just dont see Pattaya sustaining the massive oversupply of bars and go-gos, regardless of what this high season brings.

[Chwooly]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

still waiting to see the oppression. Let me know when it starts.

[emass spomgiform]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

still waiting to see the oppression. Let me know when it starts.

ask the CIB POLICE

Edited December 3, 2014 by emass spomgiform

[CarlTyson]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

still waiting to see the oppression. Let me know when it starts.

Havnt you noticed how many posts disappear here lately?

The Bangkok Pundit closed shop the other day.

The local papers can only print nonsense.

People are being arrested and being reprogrammed.

Just the beginning.

[Anthony5]

Does anyone have a clue how many Americans vacation in Thailand compared to Aussies and Europeans? I don't see that many when I'm there.

China's economy including exports is struggling. The Russian Ruble has crashed. Japan's economy is struggling.

I think it's currency values and economies that are doing at least some of this. Also, Thailand has become expensive. For people on a budget there are alternatives.

Strange that it is you have to say that, while in other threads you're shouting from a soap box that Americans are so much better of than their Chinese-Russian or Japanese counterparts, yet those are all over the place spending money on vacations.

[billd766]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

Absolutely a great time to visit!

I've never felt safer here.

My experiences says your observations are well wide of the Mark!

Observations? I was stating facts.

Really?

Quote "Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta."

So you would prefer Thailand as it was 9 months ago when innocent civilians were being injured and murdered on a daily basis? Where there was no government, no budget, law and order was non existent, nobody was in control and the country was in complete chaos and possibly hearding for civil war? Where crime was rampant and the biggest crooks were the police?

And you think that was a better and safer time?

My experiences say that your observations (or facts from your point of view) are very wide of the mark.

How has the "oppressive military junta" (your words) affected you and the Thais close to you?

Out where I live in rural Thailand it has made no difference at all to me, my family, my friends or to the local Thais that I know.

[brewsterbudgen]

If you take Bangkok and Pattaya, the OP couldn't be more wrong! Very limited hotel availability over the Christmas/New Year period.

[CarlTyson]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

Absolutely a great time to visit!

I've never felt safer here.

My experiences says your observations are well wide of the Mark!

Observations? I was stating facts.

Really?

Quote "Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta."

So you would prefer Thailand as it was 9 months ago when innocent civilians were being injured and murdered on a daily basis? Where there was no government, no budget, law and order was non existent, nobody was in control and the country was in complete chaos and possibly hearding for civil war? Where crime was rampant and the biggest crooks were the police?

And you think that was a better and safer time?

My experiences say that your observations (or facts from your point of view) are very wide of the mark.

How has the "oppressive military junta" (your words) affected you and the Thais close to you?

Out where I live in rural Thailand it has made no difference at all to me, my family, my friends or to the local Thais that I know.

Nonsense.

The chaos was a manufactured 'crisis' to prompt the coup.

You actually don't know why this General was put in charge of Thailand at this particular moment in time?

If we could only turn back the clock to 2003 when the Thai stock market gained 103% and Thailand had 200Billion in budget surplus.

[Phuketboy]

Usually, December is peak season in Phuket, and hotels/guesthouses in my area (Phuket Airport) are all fully booked and charging peak season prices.

Yesterday, I did a check on Booking.com for hotel availability of the 30 or so properties in my area.

26 out of the 30 still had rooms available, at room rates not much above low season prices.

My guesthouse wasn't one of those 26 and I'm charging twice my low season rate, so I'm happy

That is very unusual for Phuket, and certainly suggests that the tourists are not coming. I know quite a few guesthouse/hotel owners who are at a loss what to do. Even if they reduce their room rates to low season rates, the tourists are not there

This confirms what other friends with hotels and guest houses have told me as well. Some are still half empty and are still charging low season rates. They haven't put them up cause they need the numbers and are trying to entice customers to stay there. Not looking good at all.

[Phuketboy]

You can add Pattaya to that list.

Without a fail, News Year is already booked out.

In one my hotels, we only have 2 bookings over that period.

At the moment(which is high season) the same hotel is only half booked and its doing great, because 1 hotel next door has only 2 rooms out of 14 and another 9 rooms out of 75

Expedia provides some marketing tools to see market movement etc.

Current bookings for 2-2.5 star hotels market average is 31 bookings per month. Its laughable.

Thanks for that - I can only speak to the segment of Pattaya that I'm familiar with and that's the nightlife precinct. No idea how that's reflected in hotel occupancy rates as I dont believe the majority of tourists in 2014 have much interest in Pattaya after midnight - happy to hear otherwise.

If my only experience of Pattaya post-midnight was these pages and the odd foray to Central World, I could easily agree with some of the doomsayers - fortunately, it isnt. For some, that will be cause for hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth - 'another quality retiree' yada yada - all I can say is that I spend money on everything from audio to travel right here in Thailand and my opinions are all based on firsthand experience, not something I read on a forum. if that makes me a barfly, so be it - I just want to make it clear that I dont simply park my carcass in the same bar night after night and order the proverbial bottle of Chang. My wallet would thank me, but that would be right up there with staying home and watching Thai TV on the excitement scale.

if I could use a single word to describe crowds in various bars over the last few weeks, it would be patchy - last night was the deadest I've EVER seen Buakhow and the pathetic attempts to generate some life in Soi Made In Thailand via parties were complete fizzers from where I was sitting, but the previous night there were bars in Soi Diana and LK Metro where the balloon chasers were out in force - in some cases, not a spare seat to be seen. Saturday night was a similar story - massive party on Buakhow and even MiT had a party that I thought was crowded (not difficult in those small bars, admittedly, but the Buakhow bar was a monster by beer bar standards with over a hundred people).

Moving on to Walking Street in the early hours of Tuesday morning and the street itself was pretty much dead - the Chinese tourists must have all been tucked up in bed by then - but it was a completely different story inside I-Bar : as we waded through two packed floors of (mostly) under-35s, I remember thinking 'Where the hell are all these young Farang during the day ?'. Granted, its a major freelancer hangout but between 2 and 4am I estimate that there were at least a thousand people in that club, and roughly 60% were male. No aggro, no-one staggering around / throwing up etc - with the exception of the ear-splitting doof-doof, it was a surprisingly good venue.

OK, so a couple of nights does not a high season make, and perhaps we'll never get back to the high seasons of old - as someone who has to deal with the traffic already being generated by the Thais I'm not entirely averse to that possibility. Having spent plenty of time in the nightlife precinct right through this epic low season, I like to think I have a slightly better understanding of what attracts the available punters - the people actually willing to buy a beer and/or meal as opposed to the gawkers wandering up and down WS.

1. Location - check out the big bar at the Beach Road end of Soi 8 any afternoon from about 3pm. Consistently good numbers even when the other bars in Soi 8 are dead.

2. Knowing your market - the Australian bar owners who've gone to the trouble of making the football codes (AFL, NRL, Intl' Rugby) available for their customers have been rewarded with consistently good turnouts, even with the slide in the our dollar. How many bars have you walked past that are content to play nothing more riveting than a Thai soap or - worse - something insanely banal like a wildlife doco. Just turn those TVs off and leave them off if you cant tailor the content to your customer base

3. Actually giving a crap about repeat business - if you're going to hire girls who do nothing more than sit at the bar engrossed in their smartphones, why bother ? This is where pool tables actually make a difference, IMO - they get people interacting beyond the 'One drink for me ?' stage. The attitudes of many in the bars is a topic which has been discussed on various fora at length so I'll leave it there. I prefer venues with live music, but the quality varies immensely - I may have reached my limit on the number of times I can listen to 'Highway to Hell' and not run screaming into the Soi.

None of the above is rocket science, but I think the days of simply hiring a few girls and sitting back waiting for the baht to roll in are gone - bar owners either differentiate themselves from the bar on either side of theirs or pray for a miracle. I know a couple of Farang bar owners who've already cashed in their chips and cut their losses, but the Thais seem willing to grind it out - just not sure that having a 'me too' party and juicing the girls up on cheap rotgut is a formula for instant success. What worked on Saturday night clearly wasnt working last night, but that's showbiz. Tonight could be very different, but any suggestion that Pattaya doesnt have (potential) customers makes me laugh - it just doesnt have an endless supply of middle-aged men prepared to sit in cookie-cutter bars with disinterested women or even men dressed as women, although Stickman would probably disagree with me on that last claim. Stick, I'll have to defer to you on all matters relating to Katoey bars - it's just not my area of expertise

Happy to discuss any of the above with those who actually leave the safety of their homes to sample what's on offer in Pattaya after dark - considerably less so with the moral minority on this board. This isnt about prostitution or the evils of the demon drink - it's about whether or not Thailand can still attract tourists. I believe it can, even in a destination as cliched as central Pattaya, but its going to take a few attitudinal changes. I have no desire to see the beer bars replaced by condos and boutique shopping centres, but I just dont see Pattaya sustaining the massive oversupply of bars and go-gos, regardless of what this high season brings.

Great feedback guys. In 9 years of living in and all my travel around Thailand, the one place I have never been to is Pattaya, but that will change this month when i make my way for business. It will certainly be interesting to see the differences (if many) from Phuket and Koh Samui and explore what the city has to offer. Maybe, we could even catch up.

[jacksam]

Does anyone have a clue how many Americans vacation in Thailand compared to Aussies and Europeans? I don't see that many when I'm there.

China's economy including exports is struggling. The Russian Ruble has crashed. Japan's economy is struggling.

I think it's currency values and economies that are doing at least some of this. Also, Thailand has become expensive. For people on a budget there are alternatives.

The auusie ,UK and USA tourists are similar in number. I'm only guessing but USA folk, in the main long time to actually get to bkk. Mate in Florida flies to west coast then through another country to get here. For a country with large population there numbers are small. AU east coast is 9 hours direct....breeze.

By far most tourists come from China. The big tour groups don't go to bars.

Russian currency will impact soon.

Glad I don't own a bar.

Edited December 3, 2014 by jacksam

[ttthailand]

Hotel booking are the best way to look at the tourist numbers I think. They are however worthless if you are a farang looking at your business as some of these hotels book the tour groups of Chinese or Indian that never visit the farang bars and restaurants.

I was out a few times over the last month around Pattaya and some places had people some not. The normal farang hangout at LK metro had many people but I think most were locals not tourists. As I made my way around town to other farang spots I saw many of the same faces that I just saw at LK Metro. I also saw those same faces time after time around town for years, locals.... When you have 1,000 local farangs hitting the bars every night and by chance showing up at the same location at the same time it looks busy. If they spread out it looks like low season.

[MrWorldwide]

@phuketboy, if you can handle Patong my guess is that you can handle central Pattaya - just accept that it didnt get the name 'Sin City' by accident, although I think some of the gawkers must be disappointed when they see how sedate the beer bars usually are. ignore the haters and make your own call - there are pros and cons to this town but for some it will only ever be a dumpsite for the worst that Thailand has to offer. Their loss IMO.

[David48]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

Absolutely a great time to visit!

I've never felt safer here.

My experiences says your observations are well wide of the Mark!

chachoengsao is not thailand in general

Nice try ... no cigar ... we don't live there.

I hate it when the returning Trolls Members get their facts wrong.

.

[Chwooly]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

still waiting to see the oppression. Let me know when it starts.

Havnt you noticed how many posts disappear here lately?

The Bangkok Pundit closed shop the other day.

The local papers can only print nonsense.

People are being arrested and being reprogrammed.

Just the beginning.

I have never read the Thai pundit. The local papers have always printed nonsense and I have yet to see the multiple arrests your talking about. Just because some one is yelling the sky is falling doesn't make it so. As far as I am concerned very little had changed, I say we give the current government some time and stop looking for things to justify what ever public agenda you might have and let the Thais handle this. Last time I checked it was Thailand not Falangland.

[David48]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

People are being arrested and being reprogrammed.

Carl ... please ... the Full Moon isn't here yet.

Wait for a few more nights to start howling ...

.

[CarlTyson]

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

still waiting to see the oppression. Let me know when it starts.

Havnt you noticed how many posts disappear here lately?

The Bangkok Pundit closed shop the other day.

The local papers can only print nonsense.

People are being arrested and being reprogrammed.

Just the beginning.

I have never read the Thai pundit. The local papers have always printed nonsense and I have yet to see the multiple arrests your talking about. Just because some one is yelling the sky is falling doesn't make it so. As far as I am concerned very little had changed, I say we give the current government some time and stop looking for things to justify what ever public agenda you might have and let the Thais handle this. Last time I checked it was Thailand not Falangland.

Everyday, I go to Google News and search 'Thailand.'

The local press isn't covering the oppression. Imagine that.

The Bangkok Pundit?

He was reliable and would skirt around the sensitive issues but would lead you to the good stuff.

He took allot of shots at The Nation and pointed out their unethical journalism practices.

Voluntarily took his site down last week when the news stories just got too hot.

[alant]

The one thing I feel sure of is that the official figures will not be representing the facts.

I would love to see Thailand back to its heady popularity pre 2008 and a more carefree lifestyle.

The latest I have read that will no doubt have tourists flooding here for high season it he banning of alcohol proposal for New Year and Songkran.

I look around and even in times when some hotels seem to have good occupancy it is not like 10 years ago.

[Suradit69]

Does anyone have a clue how many Americans vacation in Thailand compared to Aussies and Europeans? I don't see that many when I'm there.

China's economy including exports is struggling. The Russian Ruble has crashed. Japan's economy is struggling.

I think it's currency values and economies that are doing at least some of this. Also, Thailand has become expensive. For people on a budget there are alternatives.

Wiki has 2010 numbers of roughly 600K US tourists v nearly 3 million from the top five or six European nations combined.

Economics may be playing a small part in things, but I don't think there's any question that lower tourist numbers are due to perceptions about politics and safety. I get messages from back home every week asking what the heck's going on in LOS and if civil war has broken out yet.

"I get messages from back home every week asking what the heck's going on in LOS and if civil war has broken out yet. "

I'm sure you enjoy feeding the illusion that you're living on the edge of danger and reporting from the trenches. No other "news" source would be stoking that impression.

"Dear Mom & Dad, dark clouds are looming on the horizon."

[eldragon]

Does anyone have a clue how many Americans vacation in Thailand compared to Aussies and Europeans? I don't see that many when I'm there.

China's economy including exports is struggling. The Russian Ruble has crashed. Japan's economy is struggling.

I think it's currency values and economies that are doing at least some of this. Also, Thailand has become expensive. For people on a budget there are alternatives.

Wiki has 2010 numbers of roughly 600K US tourists v nearly 3 million from the top five or six European nations combined.

Economics may be playing a small part in things, but I don't think there's any question that lower tourist numbers are due to perceptions about politics and safety. I get messages from back home every week asking what the heck's going on in LOS and if civil war has broken out yet.

"I get messages from back home every week asking what the heck's going on in LOS and if civil war has broken out yet. "

I'm sure you enjoy feeding the illusion that you're living on the edge of danger and reporting from the trenches. No other "news" source would be stoking that impression.

"Dear Mom & Dad, dark clouds are looming on the horizon."

What makes you so sure of that, mate?

[ezzra]

IMHO, all those closing down can be attributed to a correction in the over supply in the market,

as we all know that Thais are big copy cats, if they see someone making money with something

they will open the same busyness in the same vicinity, steal their staff and under cut them,

so no wonder there why business are closing down, expect more to flow suit...

[KIWIBATCH]

I have a Thai mate (who is tops at speaking and understanding English) who organises the longboat tours up and down the Chao Phyra river........caught up with him yesterday.....he mentioned that he has upwards of 40 LT boats available for tourists to tour the river....and normally in the past all of the boats completed 2 sometimes 3 trips a day...which he said was/is sufficient to provide a good income for the boat operators and himself.

He said that for the past month and a half he has only had bookings for 5 or 6 boats a day and he has never experienced the drop in tourists such as he is experiencing now.

[SOTIRIOS]

......12 years here.....and still not feeling welcome.......

[phantomfiddler]

Oppressive ? You have to be kidding. It was the best thing that could have happened, and business is great down in pattaya. The only downside I think is the continued and maybe increased scamming of the tourists by the police force, who only view us as income

Thailand is under Marshall Law and under the control of an oppressive Military Junta.

The Police are out of control, backing the systematic scamming of visitors.

Are you going to plan your family holiday there?

Absolutely a great time to visit!

I've never felt safer here.

My experiences says your observations are well wide of the Mark!

[craigt3365]

Vietnam tourism suffers decline

http://www.ttrweekly.com/site/2014/12/vietnam-tourism-suffers-decline/

Some interesting stats in the article.

[dotpoom]

I have a condo that I rent out during high season but it is still empty. I'm told that the end of the back to back visas has played a big part in the downturn. I'm also told that the Russians are not coming as the money situation is bad for them due to the sink in oil prices.

[phantomfiddler]

I do believe a lot of the ladies are pricing themselves out of the market with ridiculous demands that could very well send many tourists to neighbouring countries. Not being a sex tourist, though I do enjoy a beer and a friendly chat, My observations are that most people,s complaints revolve around being shaken down by the people who are supposed to be here to ensure our safety and protection !

[sattahipchris]

Over the years I've found Thais when faced with declining business increase their prices to regain what has been lost, Europeans lower their prices to make up the short fall of profits by attracting more business. A difference in mind set or culture?