Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[draftvader]

As one of the two people that transcribed this statement direct from the show hosted on the BBC website I would like to say that you picking apart the embellished statement that one individual felt was necessary isn't going to remove the following facts:

This news item did go out on the BBC

The BBC is very closely monitored. Even an out of place fart gets a written apology on their website within 24 hours

The BBC, though more politically compromised over recent years, has a reputation for accuracy in reporting. This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been

Potentially the poster you are picking apart does not understand the nuances of British subtlety. Let me explain. The statement may seem mild to non Brits. To us it basically says "What a MASSIVE balls up that wouldn't stand for 10 seconds in the British legal system, the Met would rather let the whole thing go than submit this evidence." In short that is what most of us Brits thought the Met would do with their new "observer only" remit. They didn't observe the "crime" but they observed the police practice. Nobody was stopping them do that and they probably counted on the uncontrollable egos in the RTP to allow this to happen. They had plenty of reason to know this would work as the RTP had run everything up a flagpole before it was checked before the Met arrived. The RTP have no frame of reference for the professionalism of the top boys from the Met as they have nothing to compare to in their own force. They probably assume (as anybody living here has observed in many arenas) that they are the best in the world so they thought they would understand any game the Met were playing.

So, you might wonder, what is the next step in the British game. Well being that they had information that the case was being expedited into the courts this week they put out their little stunt on Monday knowing that the numbers of Brits interested meant that it would be observed. Radio 2 demographic? The same as the Thailand middle aged demographic (i.e. a lot of us). This meant that it was flying about publicly here by the time of the trial. I'll bet good money the RTP are starting to inspect/re-arrange their evidence again in light of this.

Now? Well, the new year is the release of the report. I expect that we'll only get the press release version which will water it down again as the Met will want to influence the RTP but play as few cards as possible. As long as they keep the RTP guessing then they have some control. The RTP are watching their colleagues being arrested around them at the moment and probably don't want to attract any more attention than need be. Sure, inside Thailand, they have some influence but outside Thailand? Nobody could care.

In short I think the Met are playing poker VERY well and may well have all the aces (we don't know but the RTP know even less). Even if they haven't they know that the RTP have nothing worthwhile as they know the evidence is pathetic and compromised.

Slowly but surely the Met can play a game that sees the B2 released. With that done they just need to apply the pressure in the right places and we'll see the right people in their places. The thing is that the Met will play an extraordinarily long game. The RTP are not used to working cold cases whereas the Met rarely close cases and, if they do, are happy to open them up again and don't care if it take 10 years or more (check out "elm guest house" for an example of that).

Ball, firmly, in the Met court.

I look forward to 2015 with great anticipation.

I see that you derive many assumptions from a 15 second statement, in particular I find the assumption that the UK police are playing games for the benefit of the Burmese defendants very unlikely.

Incidentally:

"As one of the two people that transcribed this statement direct from the show hosted on the BBC website I would like to say that you picking apart the embellished statement that one individual felt was necessary isn't going to remove the following facts:

This news item did go out on the BBC

The BBC is very closely monitored. Even an out of place fart gets a written apology on their website within 24 hours

The BBC, though more politically compromised over recent years, has a reputation for accuracy in reporting. This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been"

Those are not facts, they are assumptions, you even say it yourself, "This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been"

I, for one, find the statement very general and open to interpretation on one hand, and out of synch with both the statements from the families after being briefed by the UK investigators and the police's statement that their report will be released later next month.

Why are you questioning educated assumptions? Surely that is all you have too....or do you know more than the rest of us? That is what an opinion is, surely?

I was clarifying the interpretation of the statement as a Brit. We, much like the Thais, have subtlety and nuances in our use of our language that are missed by many other English language speakers. Most Americans, as an example, really don't understand when we are being insulting, sarcastic or obtuse.

We'll see what happens in the New Year but, with the Thai legal system stretching this one out, we can be sure the Met will not play all their cards. So far I still think this out-of-place but, without an apology, legitimate statement from the Met appears to be quite a good play without giving anything of any importance.

As I said, I look forward to 2015 with great anticipation.

[DennisF]

Interesting to see the gang of 4 have been reduced to the lone voice of the self proclaimed crusader.

One can assume that now the court is spreading the trial for a very long time that these threads will become less populated as people lose interest.

But, like draftvader, I believe a poker hand is being played and the RTP are amateurs against their opponents.

Much has been said about the non-role of the British police but I can assure you:

Having worked in a professional capacity with police from the North of England, the midlands and the south east a characteristic that is common becomes very obvious, the are all fiercely proud of what they do, how they do it, their training and their abilities.

At the moment I believe they are smarting in a serious way from the criticism they are enduring because their political masters ordered them to look like go-fors on a fools errand. Even the top brass will be taking this very personally.

They will not allow this negative perception of them to go unchallenged, thats a certainty.

I too look forward to 2015 and the revelations to come, even if they are in 15 second bursts. A 15 second burst of information from the UK is worth more than 3 months of B S from the RTP and their cronies.

[greenchair]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

[AleG]

Interesting to see the gang of 4 have been reduced to the lone voice of the self proclaimed crusader.

One can assume that now the court is spreading the trial for a very long time that these threads will become less populated as people lose interest.

But, like draftvader, I believe a poker hand is being played and the RTP are amateurs against their opponents.

Much has been said about the non-role of the British police but I can assure you:

Having worked in a professional capacity with police from the North of England, the midlands and the south east a characteristic that is common becomes very obvious, the are all fiercely proud of what they do, how they do it, their training and their abilities.

At the moment I believe they are smarting in a serious way from the criticism they are enduring because their political masters ordered them to look like go-fors on a fools errand. Even the top brass will be taking this very personally.

They will not allow this negative perception of them to go unchallenged, thats a certainty.

I too look forward to 2015 and the revelations to come, even if they are in 15 second bursts. A 15 second burst of information from the UK is worth more than 3 months of B S from the RTP and their cronies.

Yes it is really nice to see that some of the gang of 4 may have had to take a holiday , as you say there is still one nutcase trying to derail the threads what they have been doing is so obvious and with a very clear objective to hide truths unfair for all families of the victims and the accused .

I think thai visa should have very strong penalties for these people or atlas send them a message and tell them to slow down or else , as we all know it is ok to debate but trying to flood and debate every post seems wrong.

Well, go ahead and contact the administration and share your ideas of imposing penalties on posters because you don't like what they say.

[BoristheBlade]

I wish I shared your optimism regarding the Met Police.

I just don't think they want to get involved and I am certain they won't be allowed to get involved by the politicians.

The only hope is the coroners inquest, especially regarding the cause of death.

I fear for the Burmese, if they are not granted bail, 6 months is a long time in a Thai prison. Accidents can happen, and it would be a very convenient for the Thai's to bring this farce to an end.

One thing for certain, the real perpetrators are free and will be for evermore.

A slur on the Nation of Thailand and a total disgrace to the authorities here.

The anger I see in the Thai population especially young Thai males to foreigners here is frightening, and a very major problem. It need to be addressed quickly, otherwise there will be many more cases like Hanna and David.

As one of the two people that transcribed this statement direct from the show hosted on the BBC website I would like to say that you picking apart the embellished statement that one individual felt was necessary isn't going to remove the following facts:

This news item did go out on the BBC

The BBC is very closely monitored. Even an out of place fart gets a written apology on their website within 24 hours

The BBC, though more politically compromised over recent years, has a reputation for accuracy in reporting. This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been

Potentially the poster you are picking apart does not understand the nuances of British subtlety. Let me explain. The statement may seem mild to non Brits. To us it basically says "What a MASSIVE balls up that wouldn't stand for 10 seconds in the British legal system, the Met would rather let the whole thing go than submit this evidence." In short that is what most of us Brits thought the Met would do with their new "observer only" remit. They didn't observe the "crime" but they observed the police practice. Nobody was stopping them do that and they probably counted on the uncontrollable egos in the RTP to allow this to happen. They had plenty of reason to know this would work as the RTP had run everything up a flagpole before it was checked before the Met arrived. The RTP have no frame of reference for the professionalism of the top boys from the Met as they have nothing to compare to in their own force. They probably assume (as anybody living here has observed in many arenas) that they are the best in the world so they thought they would understand any game the Met were playing.

So, you might wonder, what is the next step in the British game. Well being that they had information that the case was being expedited into the courts this week they put out their little stunt on Monday knowing that the numbers of Brits interested meant that it would be observed. Radio 2 demographic? The same as the Thailand middle aged demographic (i.e. a lot of us). This meant that it was flying about publicly here by the time of the trial. I'll bet good money the RTP are starting to inspect/re-arrange their evidence again in light of this.

Now? Well, the new year is the release of the report. I expect that we'll only get the press release version which will water it down again as the Met will want to influence the RTP but play as few cards as possible. As long as they keep the RTP guessing then they have some control. The RTP are watching their colleagues being arrested around them at the moment and probably don't want to attract any more attention than need be. Sure, inside Thailand, they have some influence but outside Thailand? Nobody could care.

In short I think the Met are playing poker VERY well and may well have all the aces (we don't know but the RTP know even less). Even if they haven't they know that the RTP have nothing worthwhile as they know the evidence is pathetic and compromised.

Slowly but surely the Met can play a game that sees the B2 released. With that done they just need to apply the pressure in the right places and we'll see the right people in their places. The thing is that the Met will play an extraordinarily long game. The RTP are not used to working cold cases whereas the Met rarely close cases and, if they do, are happy to open them up again and don't care if it take 10 years or more (check out "elm guest house" for an example of that).

Ball, firmly, in the Met court.

I look forward to 2015 with great anticipation.

I see that you derive many assumptions from a 15 second statement, in particular I find the assumption that the UK police are playing games for the benefit of the Burmese defendants very unlikely.

Incidentally:

"As one of the two people that transcribed this statement direct from the show hosted on the BBC website I would like to say that you picking apart the embellished statement that one individual felt was necessary isn't going to remove the following facts:

This news item did go out on the BBC

The BBC is very closely monitored. Even an out of place fart gets a written apology on their website within 24 hours

The BBC, though more politically compromised over recent years, has a reputation for accuracy in reporting. This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been"

Those are not facts, they are assumptions, you even say it yourself, "This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been"

I, for one, find the statement very general and open to interpretation on one hand, and out of synch with both the statements from the families after being briefed by the UK investigators and the police's statement that their report will be released later next month.

Why are you questioning educated assumptions? Surely that is all you have too....or do you know more than the rest of us? That is what an opinion is, surely?

I was clarifying the interpretation of the statement as a Brit. We, much like the Thais, have subtlety and nuances in our use of our language that are missed by many other English language speakers. Most Americans, as an example, really don't understand when we are being insulting, sarcastic or obtuse.

We'll see what happens in the New Year but, with the Thai legal system stretching this one out, we can be sure the Met will not play all their cards. So far I still think this out-of-place but, without an apology, legitimate statement from the Met appears to be quite a good play without giving anything of any importance.

As I said, I look forward to 2015 with great anticipation.

[greenchair]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

I would really appreciate this information.

Also what time did the boat leave.

[DennisF]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

I would really appreciate this information.

Also what time did the boat leave.

I really do not like going into the details of this kind of thing because families may be reading but, it may help so here goes:

If Davids bleeding can be verified then we have to know from where he was bleeding.

Blood is a liquid and if there is a wound it will leak, at the lowest point.

'Real' bleeding is not possible without a heartbeat to pump the blood so it is leakage due to gravity.

Without a heartbeat the pumping of blood is not possible.

From my understanding, it takes about 30 minutes after death for blood vessels to expand and the blood to form in the lowest part of the body.

This, of course, could mean that David had been dead for less than half anj hour but more information would be needed to confirm that.

As the RTP had the bodies frozen immediately ( mmm) a time of death cannot be accurately given by forensics so its still an unknown.

[jimmybkk]

"#1, the judge and/or the prosecution can say, "so 'n so aren't on trial here. You are!""

Direct quote from the judge to one of the defendants: "If you were not involved in this crime, tell us who is. Don't be scared.". So a complete and utter fail for your first attempt at hand-waving things away.

"#2, it will cloud and possibly confuse the intention of the defendants, which is: TO GET ACQUITTED."

Naming the "real murderers" so they can be prosecuted would do wonders to get them acquitted.

"#3 Everyone with any knowledge of how mafia-like families operate in Thailand, knows that implicating one of their family or friends in a crime, is asking for a head bashing or a bullet."

Again, they are facing a death sentence if they are found guilty, I really don't believe you spend any more time than it takes you to write your rationalizations on thinking what you are actually saying.

"The defendants aren't supposed to do the police work of finding suspects, THE POLICE ARE."

The defense is supposed to do anything that would prove the innocence of their clients, you just make up "rules" in an attempt to rationalize things. Furthermore if the defense knows who the real killers are and don't tell they are in fact conspiring in the cover-up a double murder.

Good grief. Now you're resorting to making ridiculous suggestions as to ways to strengthen their defense such as naming who they think the real murderers are??? Did they ever claim that they were eye witnesses to what happened that night? When did the defense claim to "know" who the "real" killers are? Oh yeah, that's right, they didn't. It was just you taking the opportunity to make a ridiculous statement about the defense conspiring to cover up a double murder.

Even so you're suggesting that they spit out some names anyway because.let's face it, they're looking at the death penalty so what have they got to lose...

Hmmm.... it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that if they mention any names at all they (the defense) will be asked what proof and evidence they have to justify implicating others in this case and when that proof and evidence is not forthcoming (because let's face it, the defense have already got their hands full defending these 2 lads without having to go searching for evidence for the prosecutor's office, which is really not their job) their credibility in court will be irreparably damaged.

Nice try son, but I'd suggest you slither back into your troll hole and come up with something better than that. You can do it AleG - I know you can...

[metisdead]

Off-topic, threatening, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Please stay on the topic of the thread. That means addressing the issues presented in the post, not in making comments to or about other posters. Doing so is off-topic and your post will be removed and you could face a suspension.

You have every right to express your opinion about the topic. You may disagree, but it must be done in a civil manner.

[BritTim]

There are 3 basic reasons why the B2 won't say who they think are the perps of the crimes (if they even have suspicions or knowledge about that).

#1, the judge and/or the prosecution can say, "so 'n so aren't on trial here. You are!"

#2, it will cloud and possibly confuse the intention of the defendants, which is: TO GET ACQUITTED.

#3 Everyone with any knowledge of how mafia-like families operate in Thailand, knows that implicating one of their family or friends in a crime, is asking for a head bashing or a bullet.

The defendants aren't supposed to do the police work of finding suspects, THE POLICE ARE. In a more advanced society, trained/objective investigators would be doing that work, but in Thailand, it's up to regular cops to do investigative work, and they're very subjective in that regard.

"#1, the judge and/or the prosecution can say, "so 'n so aren't on trial here. You are!""

Direct quote from the judge to one of the defendants: "If you were not involved in this crime, tell us who is. Don't be scared.". So a complete and utter fail for your first attempt at hand-waving things away.

"#2, it will cloud and possibly confuse the intention of the defendants, which is: TO GET ACQUITTED."

Naming the "real murderers" so they can be prosecuted would do wonders to get them acquitted.

"#3 Everyone with any knowledge of how mafia-like families operate in Thailand, knows that implicating one of their family or friends in a crime, is asking for a head bashing or a bullet."

Again, they are facing a death sentence if they are found guilty, I really don't believe you spend any more time than it takes you to write your rationalizations on thinking what you are actually saying.

"The defendants aren't supposed to do the police work of finding suspects, THE POLICE ARE."

The defense is supposed to do anything that would prove the innocence of their clients, you just make up "rules" in an attempt to rationalize things. Furthermore if the defense knows who the real killers are and don't tell they are in fact conspiring in the cover-up a double murder.

(Assuming the Burmese kids are innocent scapegoats, which I believe) they were not present at the time of the murders. They may have strong suspicions of who was involved. However, they would (rightly) be criticized for making accusations without evidence or first hand knowledge. Even if they know something as a fact, it would be normal and best to allow their defense lawyers to present it. The judge knows this, and we could speculate as to why he asked them the question. An optimist would say that he wanted to see if they would behave as if guilty and start making accusations to deflect suspicion. If so, the judge will have been satisfied by their response.

[boomerangutang]

It's good to see a time-line, and it's also appreciated that some reasonable thinkers have piped up in response to the AleG's somewhat callous remark ('they're facing death penalty anyway, so what's the big deal') about why the B2 chose to not name names when asked by the judge if they (the B2) knew who the real perpetrators were.

Earlier, Boris mentioned 6 months incarceration. It's actually close to twice that, before the B2 have a prospect of being set free - IF THEY'RE ACQUITTED. That's a year out of their young lives, languishing in a Thai prison, where cockroaches are the main source of protein - where a mysterious death or two wouldn't be uncommon. When Red leaders were detained after they commandeered Bkk for months, they were given townhouse-like accommodation, with kitchens, living rooms, family visits. How about the same for the B2. The B2 are losing a year of money-earning (for them and their poor families), not learning skills (except how to do illegal things).

If they're let out, in late Sept. '15 or whenever, they should be compensated Bt.20,000/month each, by Thai officialdom, for false imprisonment. For any top officials in Thailand, that's less than pocket-change.

[Willy Eckerslike]

The day in court posted by SLESQ

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785531-myanmar-embassy-seeking-defence-witnesses-for-koh-tao-accused/page-9#entry8861428

[Willy Eckerslike]

Latest from SLESQ

Two foreigners to testify for defence.............Could it be Macanna and Ware?? sounds like it!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785531-myanmar-embassy-seeking-defence-witnesses-for-koh-tao-accused/page-9#entry8863118

Edited December 28, 2014 by Willy Eckerslike

[greenchair]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

I would really appreciate this information.

Also what time did the boat leave.

I really do not like going into the details of this kind of thing because families may be reading but, it may help so here goes:

If Davids bleeding can be verified then we have to know from where he was bleeding.

Blood is a liquid and if there is a wound it will leak, at the lowest point.

'Real' bleeding is not possible without a heartbeat to pump the blood so it is leakage due to gravity.

Without a heartbeat the pumping of blood is not possible.

From my understanding, it takes about 30 minutes after death for blood vessels to expand and the blood to form in the lowest part of the body.

This, of course, could mean that David had been dead for less than half anj hour but more information would be needed to confirm that.

As the RTP had the bodies frozen immediately ( mmm) a time of death cannot be accurately given by forensics so its still an unknown.

Well bless and thank you for answering.

However the times here are far from correct. I am just wondering if anyone has the correct times. So we could perhaps discuss details later.

[DennisF]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, Thai people who attempt to be deceitful are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

Edited December 28, 2014 by DennisF

[Willy Eckerslike]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, deceitful Thai people are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

I will certainly be up for it if I am here

Could you do me and Thai Lovers everywhere a favor and remove the word deceitful from yer post, twood make me feel better I'll buy you yer first pint

[DennisF]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, deceitful Thai people are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

I will certainly be up for it if I am here

Could you do me and Thai Lovers everywhere a favor and remove the word deceitful from yer post, twood make me feel better I'll buy you yer first pint

I too am a Thai lover, and I particularly love 1 specimen of that race !!

I have re-worded as it was not meant to imply all Thai people.

As I have stated many times on many threads: it is my experience that Thai people are the most wonderful, friendly and welcoming people in the World.

Its just the arrogant and vulgar hisos that are the problem here.

[Willy Eckerslike]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, Thai people who attempt to be deceitful are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

Muchberra, Yeragudun, first two pints

Edited December 28, 2014 by Willy Eckerslike

[Fat Haggis]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, deceitful Thai people are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

I will certainly be up for it if I am here

Could you do me and Thai Lovers everywhere a favor and remove the word deceitful from yer post, twood make me feel better I'll buy you yer first pint

I too am a Thai lover, and I particularly love 1 specimen of that race !!

I have re-worded as it was not meant to imply all Thai people.

As I have stated many times on many threads: it is my experience that Thai people are the most wonderful, friendly and welcoming people in the World.

Its just the arrogant and vulgar hisos that are the problem here.

And a few Farang who think they are more Thai than Farang!!

[greenchair]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

Certainly would be grateful if someone could give me the correct times as these ones are just my best guess.

[DennisF]

@ Fat Haggis

Best giggle today!

[boomerangutang]

at the get-together. . . .

If there's a guitar in the room, I could play some renditions of....

'Only You' (Platters)

'Under My Thumb' (R.Stones)

'I'm an Apeman' (Kinks)

'Teenage Wasteland' (Who)

'Midnight Rambler' (Stones)

'I'll Be Watching You' (Police)

. . . . . sing-alongs, ok.

[greenchair]

Latest from SLESQ

Two foreigners to testify for defence.............Could it be Macanna and Ware?? sounds like it!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785531-myanmar-embassy-seeking-defence-witnesses-for-koh-tao-accused/page-9#entry8863118

Great news. Now if they had anything to Support the prosecutions imaginary theory, the prosecution would have snapped them up before you could say 'it wasn't the hoe'

therefore they must have something good to say to support the defense. A lot of people want to talk to them.

[BritTim]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

Certainly would be grateful if someone could give me the correct times as these ones are just my best guess.

This is a worthy endeavor. However, almost all the facts will be disputed unless well sourced.

What is really needed is a moderated wiki that can be steadily populated with facts (thoroughly supported by cited sources and with any assumptions clearly specified), open questions, theories with pro and con arguments, and background on key people, places and organizations (again properly sourced).

To do this properly, would take months and involve more than just reviewing press reports and message boards.

Although this would be distasteful to many, a couple of people willing to follow guidelines but supportive of the RTP line ought also to be involved. Devil's advocates are important in producing a final product that will stand up to scrutiny.

If there is enough support for the idea, and doing it properly, I would be willing to be involved. I think we would need about 10 participants, including a couple on or near Koh Tao. These, latter, would need advice (perhaps from experienced journalists) on how to protect themselves and those they talk to.

Do not underestimate this task!

[boomerangutang]

Latest from SLESQ

Two foreigners to testify for defence.............Could it be Macanna and Ware?? sounds like it!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785531-myanmar-embassy-seeking-defence-witnesses-for-koh-tao-accused/page-9#entry8863118

Great news. Now if they had anything to Support the prosecutions imaginary theory, the prosecution would have snapped them up before you could say 'it wasn't the hoe'

therefore they must have something good to say to support the defense. A lot of people want to talk to them.

It may not be Sean. Plus, he's slippery, and the prosecution would have a party tearing in to his morality quotient. It may be a lady friend of Hannah's. I'll be surprised if there aren't a bunch of surprises this summer, during testimony.

[greenchair]

@ Fat Haggis

Best giggle today!

I would love to come, but really not wanting to burst your bubble. The fight has barely even started. Just keeping this in the news is going to be a mission in itself. Lack of funding will stop all of this in its tracks and the b2 will fade away. Out of about 500,000. More than 400,000 has already been spent. And that is with free lawyers and advocates. In thai they say. Jai yen yen.

[DennisF]

at the get-together. . . .

If there's a guitar in the room, I could play some renditions of....

'Only You' (Platters)

'Under My Thumb' (R.Stones)

'I'm an Apeman' (Kinks)

'Teenage Wasteland' (Who)

'Midnight Rambler' (Stones)

'I'll Be Watching You' (Police)

. . . . . sing-alongs, ok.

Since I put the angle grinder through my left hand a couple of years ago you may well be short a Bass player.

Anything Rod Stewart sang I could play, plus meatloaf and many 80's bands...

Could even do Smokie!!!!

[boomerangutang]

This is a worthy endeavor. However, almost all the facts will be disputed unless well sourced.

What is really needed is a moderated wiki that can be steadily populated with facts (thoroughly supported by cited sources and with any assumptions clearly specified), open questions, theories with pro and con arguments, and background on key people, places and organizations (again properly sourced).

To do this properly, would take months and involve more than just reviewing press reports and message boards.

Although this would be distasteful to many, a couple of people willing to follow guidelines but supportive of the RTP line ought also to be involved. Devil's advocates are important in producing a final product that will stand up to scrutiny.

If there is enough support for the idea, and doing it properly, I would be willing to be involved. I think we would need about 10 participants, including a couple on or near Koh Tao. These, latter, would need advice (perhaps from experienced journalists) on how to protect themselves and those they talk to.

Do not underestimate this task!

That's an interesting idea. Someone could start it, and others could add and take-away or qualify text therein. It wouldn't necessarily need a group to start, would it? I could add text, but haven't yet figured how to add photos/diagrams to wiki.

As an aside: It's interesting to note how the Gang of 4 harbor a distaste for social media, calling everything on it 'conspiracy theory,' yet what do they have to counter that? In other words, they (and/or Thai officials) are free to start a Facebook site which gives their spin on the crime and its investigation. The existing site (DSI LA) casts serious doubts on the investigation, including some riveting photo/diagramatical details. Thai officials and Gang of 4 have nothing comparable to counter that . . . . . . nada.

[thailandchilli]

THINKING POSITIVE

Who thinks it would be a good idea for all us positive posters to meet up somewhere in Bangkok for a celebratory party when the trial is over?

The judge is this case has surprised everyone, even on the first day.

Generally, Thai people who attempt to be deceitful are incapable of being as subtle, so I am upbeat now.

So, who is up for a party after the trial??

At that party we COULD discuss alternative theories but the main thrust would be the freedom of the innocent and the prevailing of justice.

I'm in for that Den, be good to meet up with people who are not afraid to fight for justice and have no other interest in this case other than to see that justice carried out, whoever the killers turn out to be.

[thailandchilli]

at 2.52 while Hannah and her friends are walking past the cctv, 3 males in what looks like same yellow t-shirts appeared....am I looking into it too much? and the male friend Hannah was walking with was on the phone. Phone records....who is he?

Can someone help me to put together a layman's timeline. Verifiable facts only please. These are my guess please change to be accurate times.

2:58 hannah last seen.

5:00 hannah found.

1:30 David last seen.

5:00 David found.

12:00 b3 went to beach on motorbike.

1:00 Muang seen 7/11 buy alcohol /cigarettes.

1:30 Muang returned to beach.

1:35 Muang left.

By foot?by motorbike?cctv proof?

----b2 left.

By foot?by bike?cctv proof?

5:00 boys found asleep by Muang.

4:45 running man go to beach.

4:50 running man ran back.

4:47 foreigner/thai girl walk in hurry.

---- mon is on beach.

Hannah found by? ???

Police come? ???

Estimated time of death.

Hannah 3:00--5:00

David 1:00--5:00 still bleeding when discovered.

Time b2 from beach to home

Estimate.

1.motorcycle. ----

2.by foot. ----.

Certainly would be grateful if someone could give me the correct times as these ones are just my best guess.

This is a worthy endeavor. However, almost all the facts will be disputed unless well sourced.

What is really needed is a moderated wiki that can be steadily populated with facts (thoroughly supported by cited sources and with any assumptions clearly specified), open questions, theories with pro and con arguments, and background on key people, places and organizations (again properly sourced).

To do this properly, would take months and involve more than just reviewing press reports and message boards.

Although this would be distasteful to many, a couple of people willing to follow guidelines but supportive of the RTP line ought also to be involved. Devil's advocates are important in producing a final product that will stand up to scrutiny.

If there is enough support for the idea, and doing it properly, I would be willing to be involved. I think we would need about 10 participants, including a couple on or near Koh Tao. These, latter, would need advice (perhaps from experienced journalists) on how to protect themselves and those they talk to.

Do not underestimate this task!

Yep, huge task, but I could afford to put in a few hours each week so if you need me in any way I'd be more than willing to help, I have plenty of web development experience also