Please Not to Forget..... Today is Pearl Harbor Day

[Gonzo the Face]

My parents were married dec 8 1946 and celebrated their 68th anniversary alive and kicking! Part of the secret is my 95 yr old father can turn down his hearing aid!

Well by that reasoning maybe he can get another 25 -30 years by figuring how to turn it off 555555

Edited December 10, 2014 by Gonzo the Face

[uptheos]

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Both USA and Britain........anyone know if that's in the history teaching books here?

[haybilly]

No idea, uptheos, but my bet is not.

I do believe that the Brits made a pre-emptory bombing raid prior to Thailand's declaration, though- a sort of unwritten declaration of our own.

[hml367]

An interesting side note to Thailand/Axis/Allies in World War II which many people are unaware of:

Freeing Thailand after World War II.pdf

[CMHomeboy78]

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Thailand didn't [and did] declare war on the United States of America.

Thailand's ambassador to the US, Seni Pramoj refused to deliver a declaration of war and went on, with American government encouragement and OSS support, to organize the Seri Thai [Free Thai].

A formal declaration of war arrived on February 2nd 1942 at the State Department from the Swiss Foreign Ministry and the American Embassy in Berne. The American government officially ignored it, viewing Thailand's administration as Japanese-controlled and not representitive of the will of the people.

In the same way they ignored the declarations of war by the puppet governments of Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria.

The question of whether or not Thailand declared war on the United States can be answered by "yes"... but also by "no".

Like so many things here, there's a gray area between the black and the white.

[hml367]

And a video which has been argued as good and not so good for Thailand - this was in another thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753149-learned-some-thai-history-today-ww2/page-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4eT9bR3nM#t=85

[JingerBen]

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Thailand didn't [and did] declare war on the United States of America.

Thailand's ambassador to the US, Seni Pramoj refused to deliver a declaration of war and went on, with American government encouragement and OSS support, to organize the Seri Thai [Free Thai].

A formal declaration of war arrived on February 2nd 1942 at the State Department from the Swiss Foreign Ministry and the American Embassy in Berne. The American government officially ignored it, viewing Thailand's administration as Japanese-controlled and not representitive of the will of the people.

In the same way they ignored the declarations of war by the puppet governments of Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria.

The question of whether or not Thailand declared war on the United States can be answered by "yes"... but also by "no".

Like so many things here, there's a gray area between the black and the white.

"...there's a gray area between the black and the white."

That's where the truth is usually to be found, isn't it?

It's the fools who can't see anything but black or white.

Edited December 10, 2014 by JingerBen

[hml367]

JingerBen,

Your last sentence has hit the nail on the head...... especially here!

[Mapguy]

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Both USA and Britain........anyone know if that's in the history teaching books here?

Don't know about the history books, but some of the information above is not accurate or is incomplete. Here's a decent summary from Yahoo with some added dates.

In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese. On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. The Thai ambassador to the United States, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj did not deliver his copy of the declaration of war, so although the British reciprocated by declaring war on Thailand [ and consequently considered it a hostile country, the United States did not.

[ On 25 January 1942, Thailand became a formal ally of Japan. On that same date the United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa declared war on Thailand.]

On May 10, 1942, the Thai Phayap Army entered Burma's Shan State, at one time in the past the area had been part of the Ayutthaya Kingdom. The boundary between the Japanese and Thai operations was generally the Salween. However, the area south of the Shan States known as Karenni States, the homeland of the Karens, was specifically retained under Japanese control. Three Thai infantry and one cavalry division, spearheaded by armoured reconnaissance groups and supported by the air force engaged the retreating Chinese 93rd Division. Kengtung, the main objective, was captured on May 27. Renewed offensives in June and November evicted the Chinese into Yunnan.The area containing the Shan States and Kengtung was annexed by Thailand in 1942. After the war, in 1946, the areas were ceded back to Burma.

The Free Thai Movement ("Seri Thai") was established during these first few months, parallel Free Thai organisations were also established in the United Kingdom and inside Thailand. Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the British-based organisation, and Pridi Phanomyong, the regent, headed its largest contingent, which was operating within the country. Aided by elements of the military, secret airfields and training camps were established while OSS and Force 136 agents fluidly slipped in and out of the country.

As the war dragged on, the Thai population came to resent the Japanese presence. In June 1944, Phibun was overthrown in a coup d'état. The new civilian government under Khuang Aphaiwong attempted to aid the resistance while at the same time maintaining cordial relations with the Japanese. After the war, U.S. influence prevented Thailand from being treated as an Axis country, but the British demanded three million tons of rice as reparations and the return of areas annexed from the colony of Malaya during the war. Thailand also returned the portions of British Burma and French Indochina that had been annexed. Phibun and a number of his associates were put on trial on charges of having committed war crimes and of collaborating with the Axis powers. However, the charges were dropped due to intense public pressure. Public opinion was favourable to Phibun, since he was thought to have done his best to protect Thai interests.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Mapguy

[bangmai]

The Brits forced Thailand to make reparations in the form of massive amounts of rice to Malaya. The US did not require any reparations from Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_in_World_War_II

Edited December 10, 2014 by bangmai

[CMHomeboy78]

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Both USA and Britain........anyone know if that's in the history teaching books here?

Don't know about the history books, but some of the information above is not accurate or is incomplete. Here's a decent summary from Yahoo with some added dates.

In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese. On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. The Thai ambassador to the United States, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj did not deliver his copy of the declaration of war, so although the British reciprocated by declaring war on Thailand [ and consequently considered it a hostile country, the United States did not.

[ On 25 January 1942, Thailand became a formal ally of Japan. On that same date the United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa declared war on Thailand.]

On May 10, 1942, the Thai Phayap Army entered Burma's Shan State, at one time in the past the area had been part of the Ayutthaya Kingdom. The boundary between the Japanese and Thai operations was generally the Salween. However, the area south of the Shan States known as Karenni States, the homeland of the Karens, was specifically retained under Japanese control. Three Thai infantry and one cavalry division, spearheaded by armoured reconnaissance groups and supported by the air force engaged the retreating Chinese 93rd Division. Kengtung, the main objective, was captured on May 27. Renewed offensives in June and November evicted the Chinese into Yunnan.The area containing the Shan States and Kengtung was annexed by Thailand in 1942. After the war, in 1946, the areas were ceded back to Burma.

The Free Thai Movement ("Seri Thai") was established during these first few months, parallel Free Thai organisations were also established in the United Kingdom and inside Thailand. Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the British-based organisation, and Pridi Phanomyong, the regent, headed its largest contingent, which was operating within the country. Aided by elements of the military, secret airfields and training camps were established while OSS and Force 136 agents fluidly slipped in and out of the country.

As the war dragged on, the Thai population came to resent the Japanese presence. In June 1944, Phibun was overthrown in a coup d'état. The new civilian government under Khuang Aphaiwong attempted to aid the resistance while at the same time maintaining cordial relations with the Japanese. After the war, U.S. influence prevented Thailand from being treated as an Axis country, but the British demanded three million tons of rice as reparations and the return of areas annexed from the colony of Malaya during the war. Thailand also returned the portions of British Burma and French Indochina that had been annexed. Phibun and a number of his associates were put on trial on charges of having committed war crimes and of collaborating with the Axis powers. However, the charges were dropped due to intense public pressure. Public opinion was favourable to Phibun, since he was thought to have done his best to protect Thai interests.

Your source correctly states that Thailand's ambassador to Washington, Seni Pramoj refused to deliver the declaration of war, but it omits to mention the very important fact that a second formal declaration of war was sent via the Swiss Foreign Ministry and the American Embassy in Berne to the State Department on February 2nd 1942.

This was ignored by the US Government. The fact that no formal state of war existed between the two countries had an immense impact on postwar events. It gave the US a geopolitical base in the region, and an influence that was formerly held by Great Britain and France.

The conflicts that began in Indo-China soon after WWII ended were to dominate the second half of the 20th century.

[Loptr]

I hope that this does not offend--

Sad though Pearl Harbour was to the Americans--many Brits and Europeans look on it as the horrible, but it seems necessary, final push that got an unwilling American Government to finally come to the assistance of their Anglo/Euro cousins--much has been said about the implications that an earlier entry could have had on casualties. I dread to think what the outcome would have been without this atrocity.

Anyway, I know that all of Europe was glad that they did decide to come.

I'm not in any way trying to denigrate the huge help American intervention was--nor the sacrifices given by the American GI's.

You fell short of exposing the damning truth behind the Pearl Harbor attack, which is that FDR had foreknowledge of the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor and did not inform his commanders in Hawaii... Why? For the very reason you state, to gain support from the American people to join the war in Europe after the shock of the Pearl Harbor attacks... FDR himself imposed sanctions on the Japanese which virtually guaranteed the attacks on the US...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8932197/Pearl-Harbour-memo-shows-US-warned-of-Japanese-attack.html

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4740-pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not

So, here we are, 73 years after the event, commemorating the loss of lives in this horrendous event, when the fact is it could have been averted... Isn't political expediency grand...

Edited December 10, 2014 by Loptr

[Ulysses G.]

You fell short of exposing the damning truth behind the Pearl Harbor attack, which is that FDR had foreknowledge of the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor and did not inform his commanders in Hawaii... Why? For the very reason you state, to gain support from the American people to join the war in Europe after the shock of the Pearl Harbor attacks...

Actually, that is not what your link says. They believed the Japanese were contemplating a military action of some sort, but they they didn't think anybody would move an army thousands of miles across the Pacific, stop to refuel, then move on to Hawaii to make a strike:

"Based on all my research, I believe that neither Roosevelt nor anybody in his government, the Navy or the War Department knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbour. There was no conspiracy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8932197/Pearl-Harbour-memo-shows-US-warned-of-Japanese-attack.html

Edited December 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[puukao]

There will be conspiracies on everything. The person running for President wanted to say FDR knew, and it was true we could crack the code of the Japanese. But maybe the Japanese sent out 1,000 fake orders....who knows. and maybe one of the next 2,000 messages said pearl harbor, who knows. And I think we cracked most of the codes in 1942 and after. I personally think they were 100% sure Japan would attack somewhere at sometime, and maybe they figured it would be within a 3-4 month window and 100 possible locations.