369 foreign women get Thai citizenship: deputy interior minister

[Strangebrew]

Why am'I not surprised?

[hanuman2543]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court.

A challenge to the law was filed over 10 years ago about the citizenship rules but it was denied. The court ruled it was based upon national security and thus was not discriminatory.

The naturalization act was changed in 2008 allowing for citizenship based upon being married to a Thai woman, But the bureaucrats within the interior ministry insisted upon ministerial regulations that makes it such that a foreign man must be working with a work permit and etc,

Thanks for the explanation. I can remember myself that more than 10 years ago the courts came up with a really ridiculous justification for this clear breach of the constitution and discrimination of all Thai women. But even with their ministerial regulations it is a violation of the constitution. I remember that several years ago, for a short period of time it was allowed to use the income of your Thai wife for an extension of stay. But that did not last very long. In my opinion a clear violation of the CCC. Maybe time for Thai women to stand up for their rights and get rid of the unfair treatment of them.

[BlueSkyCowboy]

For a woman to get Thai citizenship being married to a thai man is much much easier than a farang guy married to a thai woman , Its bol***ks reallly.

I am married to a Thai woman. What would be the benefit of citizenship for me? First I would have to learn Thai. Chinese would be better

[casualbiker]

For a woman to get Thai citizenship being married to a thai man is much much easier than a farang guy married to a thai woman , Its bol***ks reallly.

I am married to a Thai woman. What would be the benefit of citizenship for me? First I would have to learn Thai. Chinese would be better

If your married you don't have to learn Thai now. That was amended in 2008.

[jpinx]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court.

A challenge to the law was filed over 10 years ago about the citizenship rules but it was denied. The court ruled it was based upon national security and thus was not discriminatory.

The naturalization act was changed in 2008 allowing for citizenship based upon being married to a Thai woman, But the bureaucrats within the interior ministry insisted upon ministerial regulations that makes it such that a foreign man must be working with a work permit and etc,

Thanks for the insight It's the same when laws are "processed" by the civil servants in UK -- they frequently come out in force quite different to the "political" intent.

FWIW -- I'd be careful what you wish for if looking at thai citizenship - same as for any other country you're not native to. There's all kinds of tripwires like the military service requirement, compulsory tax and asset declarations annually, you don't necessarily avoid UK inheritance or income tax, USAsians still get caught by the USA's world-wide reach of banking legislation, etc etc. The only real benefits appear to be avoiding the visa merry-go-round and the ability to own land. I'd be weighing the pros and cons carefully.....

[TheFishman1]

The answer is simple This Is Thailand

[ubonjoe]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court.

A challenge to the law was filed over 10 years ago about the citizenship rules but it was denied. The court ruled it was based upon national security and thus was not discriminatory.

The naturalization act was changed in 2008 allowing for citizenship based upon being married to a Thai woman, But the bureaucrats within the interior ministry insisted upon ministerial regulations that makes it such that a foreign man must be working with a work permit and etc,

Thanks for the insight It's the same when laws are "processed" by the civil servants in UK -- they frequently come out in force quite different to the "political" intent.

FWIW -- I'd be careful what you wish for if looking at thai citizenship - same as for any other country you're not native to. There's all kinds of tripwires like the military service requirement, compulsory tax and asset declarations annually, you don't necessarily avoid UK inheritance or income tax, USAsians still get caught by the USA's world-wide reach of banking legislation, etc etc. The only real benefits appear to be avoiding the visa merry-go-round and the ability to own land. I'd be weighing the pros and cons carefully.....

Your tax liability does not change when you get Thai citizenship. It is the same 180 days in the country for a calender year. There also is no asset declaration needed for Thais.

Of course nothing would change for your home country tax liabilities unless you denounced that citizenship.

Military service is not a concern unless you are under the age of 30.

[billd766]

Guys who have been in the same marriage here for more than ten years and have kept their nose clean and contributed to the economy and have children who are Thai citizens, should at least get the same deal as the foreign ladies. But nope, they prefer to leave us at the mercy of the changing visa rules and forcing us leave the country every 3 months.

I meet all the requirements for a retirement extension and I haven't left Thailand in 5 years.

If you can meet the requirements you should have no problems either.

[DonaldBattles]

You may rest assured that there will e no break form male farangs. I don't believe being married to a Thai lady gives you an advantage for Thai Citenship. I have a residence permit and the last time I checked that said I had to have a work permit in order to apply.

[connda]

And exactly how many of these women are supporting their families, paying taxing, and adding to the financial welfare of their communities. So yeah, how about foreign men married to Thai national wives? Talk about a one-way, discriminatory immigration policy.

[ghuost]

there is no accounting for taste.

at a guess they would be mostly cambodian, which adds some explanation.

Edited December 8, 2014 by ghuost

[Soutpeel]

And exactly how many of these women are supporting their families, paying taxing, and adding to the financial welfare of their communities. So yeah, how about foreign men married to Thai national wives? Talk about a one-way, discriminatory immigration policy.

In the situation as you have described Why not just apply for PR first then next step citizenship ?

[glasswort]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Guys who have been in the same marriage here for more than ten years and have kept their nose clean and contributed to the economy and have children who are Thai citizens, should at least get the same deal as the foreign ladies. But nope, they prefer to leave us at the mercy of the changing visa rules and forcing us leave the country every 3 months.

Since when do foreigner males with Thai spouse or retirement visas have to leave the country every three months?

[jpinx]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court.

A challenge to the law was filed over 10 years ago about the citizenship rules but it was denied. The court ruled it was based upon national security and thus was not discriminatory.

The naturalization act was changed in 2008 allowing for citizenship based upon being married to a Thai woman, But the bureaucrats within the interior ministry insisted upon ministerial regulations that makes it such that a foreign man must be working with a work permit and etc,

Thanks for the insight It's the same when laws are "processed" by the civil servants in UK -- they frequently come out in force quite different to the "political" intent.

FWIW -- I'd be careful what you wish for if looking at thai citizenship - same as for any other country you're not native to. There's all kinds of tripwires like the military service requirement, compulsory tax and asset declarations annually, you don't necessarily avoid UK inheritance or income tax, USAsians still get caught by the USA's world-wide reach of banking legislation, etc etc. The only real benefits appear to be avoiding the visa merry-go-round and the ability to own land. I'd be weighing the pros and cons carefully.....

Your tax liability does not change when you get Thai citizenship. It is the same 180 days in the country for a calender year. There also is no asset declaration needed for Thais.

Of course nothing would change for your home country tax liabilities unless you denounced that citizenship.

Military service is not a concern unless you are under the age of 30.

If someone is living in Thailand for 180 days and UK for 180 days they are tax resident in both countries - no? UK tax-man requires information on all income, whether earned in other countries or not, and whether tax-paid or not. Does Thailand's tax-man need similar details? I'd be very worried about getting hit twice,,,

Denouncing UK citizenship does not - afaik - denounce your tax liabilities. Inheritance tax will still be liable.

[whybother]

Does that mean that these women will now have problems getting visas for other countries?

[casualbiker]

Does that mean that these women will now have problems getting visas for other countries?

Only if they have renounced their own citizenship!

[ubonjoe]

Your tax liability does not change when you get Thai citizenship. It is the same 180 days in the country for a calender year. There also is no asset declaration needed for Thais.

Of course nothing would change for your home country tax liabilities unless you denounced that citizenship.

Military service is not a concern unless you are under the age of 30.

If someone is living in Thailand for 180 days and UK for 180 days they are tax resident in both countries - no? UK tax-man requires information on all income, whether earned in other countries or not, and whether tax-paid or not. Does Thailand's tax-man need similar details? I'd be very worried about getting hit twice,,,

Denouncing UK citizenship does not - afaik - denounce your tax liabilities. Inheritance tax will still be liable.

You implied that getting Thai nationality would increase your tax liabilities here. That is what my reply was for.

Here is what the rules are for tax residency.

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

I don't know about UK taxes. But renouncing your citizenship would mean you would not be liable for income earned here if you were liable before renouncing it.

[jpinx]

Your tax liability does not change when you get Thai citizenship. It is the same 180 days in the country for a calender year. There also is no asset declaration needed for Thais.

Of course nothing would change for your home country tax liabilities unless you denounced that citizenship.

Military service is not a concern unless you are under the age of 30.

If someone is living in Thailand for 180 days and UK for 180 days they are tax resident in both countries - no? UK tax-man requires information on all income, whether earned in other countries or not, and whether tax-paid or not. Does Thailand's tax-man need similar details? I'd be very worried about getting hit twice,,,

Denouncing UK citizenship does not - afaik - denounce your tax liabilities. Inheritance tax will still be liable.

You implied that getting Thai nationality would increase your tax liabilities here. That is what my reply was for.

Here is what the rules are for tax residency.

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

I don't know about UK taxes. But renouncing your citizenship would mean you would not be liable for income earned here if you were liable before renouncing it.

That's interesting -- so if someone on retirement extensions is bringing his taxed state or personal pension into Thailand he is liable for tax in Thailand? Someone who is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days appears to be liable for filling in a Thai tax-return at least.

UK tax rules are far-reaching - a bit like the USA's banking rules - so it's not enough to say that they're living full time in Thailand. Tax law applies to all who are in some way tax-resident, nothing to do with citizenship.

Edited December 8, 2014 by jpinx

[Bloodnut]

That's a lot of western women married to Thai men. I wonder what their social status was to be awarded this? There must have been some selection criteria. One would think that allowing the same for foreign men would actually increase investment in the country. Until then, I'll be leaving most of my savings offshore and only spend what I need to to live here comfortably.

It doesn't say they are western.

Yeah, correct. The majority will be southeast Asian originating from closest neighbours Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Myanmar etc. with a few dozen Indians and Chinese as well. Probably only two or three on this list will be of European decent. The document is public knowledge (as far as I know) so their translated names would confirm this assumption.

[davidmann]

hope it makes their lives a little easier, but to be honest what are the real benifits of being a thai citizen...a very different set of standards and benifits that are associated with First world Country citizenship

There is no difference between being a citizen by birth and by naturalization.

i dont know about thailand but in the uk there is a difference, a citezen by naturalization cant pass on citezenship to their children where as a citezen by birth can ( the citezen by naturalization's child has to be born in the uk to continue the cycle)

Thai Wife got British citizenship ,children did as well ,makes life easy ,travel the world ,work anywhere in europe ,myself tired of all the thai visa problems was so easy in the past ,my thoughts why go to thailand ,when its a problem getting a visa ,for sure got house there been coming going since the 1970 ,thailand says it wont's tourist ,when i won't to go for 6 months need this visa or that visa ,why ,if i had no money truly would i go ,don't see many western homeless in thailand or at the airports of the world

[smotherb]

For a woman to get Thai citizenship being married to a thai man is much much easier than a farang guy married to a thai woman , Its bol***ks reallly.

Don't you see it as simply an extension of the Thai sexist approach? Are there not some differences between Thai men and women under the Thai law--getting visas for farang spouses for example. Thai men are preferred over Thai women under Thai culture and to some extent under Thai law. It appears Thai men can have their farang wives achieve Thai citizenship easier, because Thai men are superior; whereas, Thai women married to farangs are somehow inferior and do not deserve the same situation.

Of course, as I have said, I am not married to a Thai and the statements above are primarily based on what I gathered form previous TV discussions.

[cup-O-coffee]

369 women. No scams there I am quite certain. Tut tut! No offense intended towards the legit ones of course.

[Soutpeel]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court.

A challenge to the law was filed over 10 years ago about the citizenship rules but it was denied. The court ruled it was based upon national security and thus was not discriminatory.

The naturalization act was changed in 2008 allowing for citizenship based upon being married to a Thai woman, But the bureaucrats within the interior ministry insisted upon ministerial regulations that makes it such that a foreign man must be working with a work permit and etc,

Thanks for the insight It's the same when laws are "processed" by the civil servants in UK -- they frequently come out in force quite different to the "political" intent.

FWIW -- I'd be careful what you wish for if looking at thai citizenship - same as for any other country you're not native to. There's all kinds of tripwires like the military service requirement, compulsory tax and asset declarations annually, you don't necessarily avoid UK inheritance or income tax, USAsians still get caught by the USA's world-wide reach of banking legislation, etc etc. The only real benefits appear to be avoiding the visa merry-go-round and the ability to own land. I'd be weighing the pros and cons carefully.....

Your tax liability does not change when you get Thai citizenship. It is the same 180 days in the country for a calender year. There also is no asset declaration needed for Thais.

Of course nothing would change for your home country tax liabilities unless you denounced that citizenship.

Military service is not a concern unless you are under the age of 30.

If someone is living in Thailand for 180 days and UK for 180 days they are tax resident in both countries - no? UK tax-man requires information on all income, whether earned in other countries or not, and whether tax-paid or not. Does Thailand's tax-man need similar details? I'd be very worried about getting hit twice,,,

Denouncing UK citizenship does not - afaik - denounce your tax liabilities. Inheritance tax will still be liable.

How can you get hit twice on the same money when there is a reciprocal tax agreement between Thailand and the UK

[canuckamuck]

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Guys who have been in the same marriage here for more than ten years and have kept their nose clean and contributed to the economy and have children who are Thai citizens, should at least get the same deal as the foreign ladies. But nope, they prefer to leave us at the mercy of the changing visa rules and forcing us leave the country every 3 months.

Since when do foreigner males with Thai spouse or retirement visas have to leave the country every three months?

Without going into detail, my extension of stay gets me a 90 day stamp each time I cross a border.

[ubonjoe]

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Guys who have been in the same marriage here for more than ten years and have kept their nose clean and contributed to the economy and have children who are Thai citizens, should at least get the same deal as the foreign ladies. But nope, they prefer to leave us at the mercy of the changing visa rules and forcing us leave the country every 3 months.

Since when do foreigner males with Thai spouse or retirement visas have to leave the country every three months?

Without going into detail, my extension of stay gets me a 90 day stamp each time I cross a border.

You get a new 90 day entry not an extension when you enter. You apparently have a multiple entry non immigrant visa.

If you get a one year extension stay (it is not a visa) you do not have to leave the country. Just make 90 day reports.

I have been getting extensiona of stay based upon marriage and have not left the country for 6 and a half years.

[Arkady]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court and the Constitutional Court.

I haven't read the current constitution, the 2014 interim constitution, but I am not sure it covers these points at all. However, all of this has already been thought of by others. In 2004, I think, the Ombudsman, at the urging of a Thai women's group, asked the Council of State for an opinion of the constitutionality of the Nationality Act permitting a special route to Thai nationality for foreign wives of Thai men but not vice versa. The Ombudsman said this amounted to gender discrimination against Thai women. However, the Council of State opined that the government had a right to do this in the interests of national security. Later, in 2007 a female member of the military appointed legislature proposed amendments to the Nationality Act that would have allowed men married to Thais to apply for nationality on exactly the same basis as vice versa. But the legal committee of the Ministry of the Interior recommended that the bill should be diluted by proposing that men married to Thais should be allowed to apply without obtaining PR first and without knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. no need to sing) but they should otherwise apply on the same basis as others, meaning they need to be working in the Kingdom but get a 50% discount on the min salary to B40,000 a month for having a Thai wife. The same national security concerns were cited and the legal committee's suggestions were accepted. The revised amendments became law in 2008 and since then men married to Thais don't need to have PR first or sing and only need a salary of B40,000 a month. Men married to foreign women do need to show income but it's only B15,000 a month, can be income from any source in Thailand and only a year's tax receipts are required, vs 3 years for others. There are also discounts on minimum salary for men who are members of minority groups like hill tribes and who are married to Thais.

Assuming the next constitution is similar to the 2007 one, you can go ahead and try to file a case in the Constitutional Court, or rather your Thai wife could, since the 2007 constitution only guaranteed equal treatment to all Thais. Your wife might get even lucky but I would think it is a long shot. Ultimately they might also level the playing field by making things harder for foreign wives of Thai men.

Immigration has nothing to do with Thai citizenship. The Ministry of the Interior's Department of Provincial Administration is in charge and Special Branch does the initial processing and issues the final paperwork. Your point about common marital property is irrelevant here because the Nationality Act stipulates that applicants for naturalisation must have a profession in Thailand. So it is just a question of income. A job is required. The minimum salary levels can be adjusted through ministerial regulations but the requirement to have a job can only be changed by act of parliament. Wives of Thais apply under a different section of the Act that doesn't specify they need a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language.

[hanuman2543]

Thanks for the detailed insight in the discriminatory politic made by Thai men oppressing the fundamental rights of more than half of the population. My mentioning of the income regarding extension of stay had nothing to do with gaining citizenship. It is another example how women here are discriminated and how Thai Government Agencies are violating laws to do that.

Edited December 8, 2014 by hanuman2543

[Arkady]

What happened was that the new Interior Ministry took a look at all the pending applications for citizenship where applicants had already fulfilled all the requirements and decided there was no justification to hold them any longer. So he approved 369 women with Thai husbands who applied under Section 9 of the Nationality Act and another 272 applicants for naturalisation who applied under Section 10 of the Act. The Nation reported this in October, although it didn't explain it very well http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Thai-nationality-approved-for-369-wives-30245240.html . It was explained better in Thai on the ministry's website.

In the case of the 369 female Section 9 applicants the minister's signature is the final step, so they could go straight to the Royal Gazette which happened on 27 Nov as reported here. According to the Act you are Thai the moment it is announced in the RG, although you have to wait a few weeks for the paperwork that allows you to apply for an ID card and then a passport. For naturalisation under Section 10 there are two more steps before they can appear in the Royal Gazette. They need to be approved by the King and then make an oath of allegiance at Special Branch. That is why the minister couldn't have the 272 applicants for naturalisation he approved announced in the Royal Gazette too but instead sent them on to the next stage of the process which is the Palace. However, he did forward the name of another 62 applicants for naturalisation for publication in the Royal Gazette because they had been approved by the previous government and had already gone through the two final steps and were just waiting for a new minister to approve their appearance in the Gazette. These were not included in the list of 369 because naturalisations have to be announced with different wording since they apply under a different section of the Act and do the oath of allegiance. Applicants for naturalisation are mainly males and may or may not be married to Thai women.

Thus you can see that only a part of the story has been reported here. Actually it is very positive because the minister seems to have approved many women married to Thais who were probably considered marginal by the bureaucrats and may well have been left in a bottom drawer for years for lack of any high level connections or other advantages. Historically most wives of Thais approved have been residents of Bangkok and overwhelmingly of Chinese of Taiwanese nationality, presumably married to Thai Chinese of reasonable means. The list of 369 wives is notable for including many nationals of neighbouring countries who are residents of poorer provinces of Thailand. The minister also made a point of publishing their names on a ministry website back in October making quite clear that he was concerned that officials, brokers or lawyers might try to extort money from them by telling them they can get them their Thai citizenship under a special quota without telling them they are already approved. He also made sure the names appeared in the Royal Gazette as soon as possible. Sometimes there can a time lag of up to seven months before the names appear in the Royal Gazette after the minister has signed the order for them to be published.

You can interpret this how you like and, yes, law still favours wives of Thais more than husbands but at least since 2008 the playing field is lot more level than it was. Personally I feel it is very positive that the new minister is doing the very best he can to make the process as fair and as transparent as possible within framework of the existing law and the limitations of his term of office.

[Arkady]

Thanks for the detailed insight in the discriminatory politic made by Thai men oppressing the fundamental rights of more than half of the population. My mentioning of the income regarding extension of stay had nothing to do with gaining citizenship. It is another example how women here are discriminated and how Thai Government Agencies are violating laws to do that.

Apologies. I misread your comment about joint income under the CCC and thought it was related to the OP article regarding citizenship applications.

Yes, I am just trying to provide insight into the background of the citizenship rules and am not defending them. The basic thinking is very old fashioned and dates back to the days before WW2 when most countries in the world, including the US and the UK, stripped citizenship from women who married foreigners automatically. Therefore it was necessary for countries conversely to give citizenship automatically to women marrying their citizens to avoid a problem with stateless wives. Vestiges of this were only eliminated in the UK by the 1981 UK Nationality Act. Prior to that the UK also automatically granted citizenship to wives of UK citizens but not to husbands. It was even easier than it is in Thailand because the wives didn't ever have to set foot in the UK. They could just go along to their nearest British embassy or consulate with hubby and marriage certificate and apply for a British passport.

[Raesum]

Does Thailand allow dual citizenship?

Yes

When my husband and I went to enquire re citizenship at the Royal Thai Police for myself they said I would definately have to give up my passport.

My husband as a Thai- born has dual citizenship due to the fact he obtained second citizenship in a country that allows dual .