369 foreign women get Thai citizenship: deputy interior minister

[Garry]

hope it makes their lives a little easier, but to be honest what are the real benifits of being a thai citizen...a very different set of standards and benifits that are associated with First world Country citizenship

No visa issues for starters

[Arkady]

hope it makes their lives a little easier, but to be honest what are the real benifits of being a thai citizen...a very different set of standards and benifits that are associated with First world Country citizenship

No visa issues for starters

Apart from no hassles with visas, you can:

work without a work permit and without regard to the restricted occupations;

own land in your own name;

own majority shares in a business, vote 5 years after becoming Thai (subject to the next constitution being the same on this point as the 2007 one);

be covered by the universal healthcare scheme;

receive an old age allowance of B500 a month from the age of 60! (Actually I am not sure how to claim this.);

any children born after your naturalisation are automatically Thai and minor children born beforehand will also become Thai automatically, if they are included in your application. (This is very important for many foreign couples who apply).

A fringe benefit is the convenience of being able to use no more than your ID card and tabien baan as documentation for anything you do in Thailand. Permanent residents are at a disadvantage in this respect as they often have to submit copies of 5 documents: passport, work permit, tabien baan, alien book and residence book, which is a huge pain, if you are asked for several copies of each.

I appreciate that many people are not interested in any of these benefits but many others do want to have the citizenship of the country they live in, even if it is not yet a first world country. Each to his own. I respect the opinions of those who feel it is not for them but there is no need to knock, if you don't want or doing a sour grapes, you are ineligible.

[samran]

That's a lot of western women married to Thai men. I wonder what their social status was to be awarded this? There must have been some selection criteria. One would think that allowing the same for foreign men would actually increase investment in the country. Until then, I'll be leaving most of my savings offshore and only spend what I need to to live here comfortably.

It doesn't say they are western.

Yeah, correct. The majority will be southeast Asian originating from closest neighbours Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Myanmar etc. with a few dozen Indians and Chinese as well. Probably only two or three on this list will be of European decent. The document is public knowledge (as far as I know) so their translated names would confirm this assumption.

You are pretty much spot on. I scanned the list a few months ago when it was first announced. Less that 5 western names. The rest from SE Asia, China and India.

Interestingly, one German lady who was married to a Thai citizen with a very Germanic sounding name...

[Hawkman]

thai man have to have very little income

those farang wives don't even have to work

what a difference with farang men ... citizenship obtained? how many ?

and they NEED to be working for many years

thailand, hub of injustice

Seriously ? - spend a few months in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, and see if you feel the same !!

Last time I checked you couldn't be executed for being a victim of rape in Thailand, still any excuse to knock it eh!

While your points are quite true, that is a harsh comparison.

If I got bit by a dog and had to go to hospital, I'd feel in pain; someone could come along and say "try being bitten by a shark or lion!".

Nothing wrong with complaining about certain injustices in a country, even if it isn't as bad as the countries you mentioned. I even complain about the winter in the UK and how miserable it is, but I know it ain't no Russia.

[connda]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court and the Constitutional Court.

I haven't read the current constitution, the 2014 interim constitution, but I am not sure it covers these points at all. However, all of this has already been thought of by others. In 2004, I think, the Ombudsman, at the urging of a Thai women's group, asked the Council of State for an opinion of the constitutionality of the Nationality Act permitting a special route to Thai nationality for foreign wives of Thai men but not vice versa. The Ombudsman said this amounted to gender discrimination against Thai women. However, the Council of State opined that the government had a right to do this in the interests of national security. Later, in 2007 a female member of the military appointed legislature proposed amendments to the Nationality Act that would have allowed men married to Thais to apply for nationality on exactly the same basis as vice versa. But the legal committee of the Ministry of the Interior recommended that the bill should be diluted by proposing that men married to Thais should be allowed to apply without obtaining PR first and without knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. no need to sing) but they should otherwise apply on the same basis as others, meaning they need to be working in the Kingdom but get a 50% discount on the min salary to B40,000 a month for having a Thai wife. The same national security concerns were cited and the legal committee's suggestions were accepted. The revised amendments became law in 2008 and since then men married to Thais don't need to have PR first or sing and only need a salary of B40,000 a month. Men married to foreign women do need to show income but it's only B15,000 a month, can be income from any source in Thailand and only a year's tax receipts are required, vs 3 years for others. There are also discounts on minimum salary for men who are members of minority groups like hill tribes and who are married to Thais.

Assuming the next constitution is similar to the 2007 one, you can go ahead and try to file a case in the Constitutional Court, or rather your Thai wife could, since the 2007 constitution only guaranteed equal treatment to all Thais. Your wife might get even lucky but I would think it is a long shot. Ultimately they might also level the playing field by making things harder for foreign wives of Thai men.

Immigration has nothing to do with Thai citizenship. The Ministry of the Interior's Department of Provincial Administration is in charge and Special Branch does the initial processing and issues the final paperwork. Your point about common marital property is irrelevant here because the Nationality Act stipulates that applicants for naturalisation must have a profession in Thailand. So it is just a question of income. A job is required. The minimum salary levels can be adjusted through ministerial regulations but the requirement to have a job can only be changed by act of parliament. Wives of Thais apply under a different section of the Act that doesn't specify they need a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language.

So, in you opinion, I worked in country while married to my wife for three years 2008 into 2011. Had a WP, paid taxes. The last year I was working I was making 40K/month. Currently hold an extension based on married, but don't work, but make a lot more money then the required threshold via my pensions. So having worked, would that qualify me for citizenship, or does the 'work' and 'Thai-based income' need to be in the same year as the application?

Edited December 9, 2014 by connda

[ubonjoe]

You have to be working on the date you apply and until your application is approved.

[Arkady]

Isn't that against the constitution? The same goes for the marriage extension. The CCC states very clear that income of both partners is marital (shared) property. Why foreign men are not allowed to use the income of their Thai wifes? Why Thai men married to foreign women have to show no income at all? Is the Thai Immigration above the constitution and other relevant laws? Maybe time for some crowd funding, hiring a proper lawyer team and going to the Supreme Court and the Constitutional Court.

I haven't read the current constitution, the 2014 interim constitution, but I am not sure it covers these points at all. However, all of this has already been thought of by others. In 2004, I think, the Ombudsman, at the urging of a Thai women's group, asked the Council of State for an opinion of the constitutionality of the Nationality Act permitting a special route to Thai nationality for foreign wives of Thai men but not vice versa. The Ombudsman said this amounted to gender discrimination against Thai women. However, the Council of State opined that the government had a right to do this in the interests of national security. Later, in 2007 a female member of the military appointed legislature proposed amendments to the Nationality Act that would have allowed men married to Thais to apply for nationality on exactly the same basis as vice versa. But the legal committee of the Ministry of the Interior recommended that the bill should be diluted by proposing that men married to Thais should be allowed to apply without obtaining PR first and without knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. no need to sing) but they should otherwise apply on the same basis as others, meaning they need to be working in the Kingdom but get a 50% discount on the min salary to B40,000 a month for having a Thai wife. The same national security concerns were cited and the legal committee's suggestions were accepted. The revised amendments became law in 2008 and since then men married to Thais don't need to have PR first or sing and only need a salary of B40,000 a month. Men married to foreign women do need to show income but it's only B15,000 a month, can be income from any source in Thailand and only a year's tax receipts are required, vs 3 years for others. There are also discounts on minimum salary for men who are members of minority groups like hill tribes and who are married to Thais.

Assuming the next constitution is similar to the 2007 one, you can go ahead and try to file a case in the Constitutional Court, or rather your Thai wife could, since the 2007 constitution only guaranteed equal treatment to all Thais. Your wife might get even lucky but I would think it is a long shot. Ultimately they might also level the playing field by making things harder for foreign wives of Thai men.

Immigration has nothing to do with Thai citizenship. The Ministry of the Interior's Department of Provincial Administration is in charge and Special Branch does the initial processing and issues the final paperwork. Your point about common marital property is irrelevant here because the Nationality Act stipulates that applicants for naturalisation must have a profession in Thailand. So it is just a question of income. A job is required. The minimum salary levels can be adjusted through ministerial regulations but the requirement to have a job can only be changed by act of parliament. Wives of Thais apply under a different section of the Act that doesn't specify they need a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language.

So, in you opinion, I worked in country while married to my wife for three years 2008 into 2011. Had a WP, paid taxes. The last year I was working I was making 40K/month. Currently hold an extension based on married, but don't work, but make a lot more money then the required threshold via my pensions. So having worked, would that qualify me for citizenship, or does the 'work' and 'Thai-based income' need to be in the same year as the application?

To give you an idea how it works I was asked to submit a copy of my current WP on application, 2.5 years later when the MoI discovered a mistake made by the police in their cover letter, 6 months after that just before my MoI interview and again another year after that before performing the oath of allegiance after the King had signed.

The Nationality Act states that you need to have an occupation in Thailand and the MoI interprets this rigidly to mean you need to be working all the way through the process. This is different from PR applications where it is quite acceptable to retire or become unemployed after applying and being vetted. This is because there is nothing explicit in the Immigration Act on this point re PR.

[dbrenn]

You have to be working on the date you apply and until your application is approved.

That's what the Special Branch told me when I applied. When my application was approved, there was however no check that I was still working. They just told me to return my work permit to the Labour Department myself, where all they did was cancel it. Special Branch also told me that, after I got my Thai ID card, I should also return my Alien book to the police station and my residence permit to immigration.

The only checks I had a work permit were when I applied, and when I went to the Interior Ministry interview / singing.

Had I known this, I may have given up a job that I hated, but was staying in simply because I didn't want to upset my citizenship application.

This was going back a bit, so the rules may have changed of course.

[Arkady]

To be fair inspection of WP will vary according to the case but Special Branch advised me early on not to take the risk of being without a WP until the bitter end, since it is a legal requirement. There is definitely a good chance that your WP will be scrutinised along with all your other documents when you go for the MOI interview. I was asked to submit copies of all my documents at Special Branch before the oath of allegiance ceremony. I don't know, if they had to send them on to the MOI, or just had to submit a letter saying they had checked them and all was in order, or what would have happened if no longer had a work permit. Once you have done the oath of allegiance, it is usually only a few months until you are announced in the Royal Gazette and it is unlikely you would be asked for your documents after the oath but would you want to take the risk that some functionary at the MOI decided to cause trouble, if you had a choice?

Definitely you can give up work after your name is published in the Royal Gazette because you are legally Thai at that point, even though you need to wait for a few more weeks until you get the paperwork to apply for an ID card.