How was the border created between Thailand, Laos Myanmar ?

[ToddinChonburi]

Good reading here thanks to all for the information.

[Mike Groom]

I have a copy of a map of Siam printed in Rome Italy dated 1683 It shows the whole Malay/Thai peninsular from Johore in the South to Pegu in Myanmar as Siam.

South Myanmar is shown as Regno Di Pegu and North Myanmar as Regno Di Aracan.

The East side of Siam extends well over the river Mekong and is shown as Regno Di Cambodia and to the North as Popo Li Laos.

All land to the East is shown as Regno Di Cocincina (S Vietnam ) and to the North as Regno Di Tunquin (N. Vietnam)

The map to the North is cut off before Chiang Mai

This is two hundred years before any British and French influence .

[Mangkhut]

As for what I have heard and read only minor parts of the border between Myanmar and Thailand is really agreed upon by both countries. I guess its because the border area in Myanmar have been controlled by other etnich people than the burmese themselves. For example such as Karen, Shan etc.

There are several very unofficial border crossings between Myanmar and Thailand in these areas such as the one on the photos attached. It is some 30-40 km south of Mae Sot and I was strongly recommended not to cross over there because there supposed to be rebellions on the other side that in worst case scenario could rob or even kidnap me anddemsnd ransome for me. I doubt however that anyone would have paid anything at all to get me free if so did happen.....LOL

But people from both sides were crossing freely over this little wooden pedestrian bridge with only a single solidier guarding it. He didnt check any paperwork at all though......

Sorry - the pics always get upside down when using the Ipad..... :-(

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mangkhut

[Gonekicking]

As for what I have heard and read only minor parts of the border between Myanmar and Thailand is really agreed upon by both countries. I guess its because the border area in Myanmar have been controlled by other etnich people than the burmese themselves. For example such as Karen, Shan etc.

There are several very unofficial border crossings between Myanmar and Thailand in these areas such as the one on the photos attached. It is some 30-40 km south of Mae Sot and I was strongly recommended not to cross over there because there supposed to be rebellions on the other side that in worst case scenario could rob or even kidnap me anddemsnd ransome for me. I doubt however that anyone would have paid anything at all to get me free if so did happen.....LOL

But people from both sides were crossing freely over this little wooden pedestrian bridge with only a single solidier guarding it. He didnt check any paperwork at all though......

Sorry - the pics always get upside down when using the Ipad..... :-(

Actually there is also an "unofficial" crossing just a few meters from the Mai Sot bridge, I snapped this pic from said bridge while going to activate my 2nd entry on my TV back in 2008 or 2009... All in plain view of soldiers and cops on both sides... gotta love Asia.

[outstripp11]

Countries (what we call countries) are a modern invention. Europe didn't have countries with well-defined borders until about 300 years ago. They had Kingdoms etc. Kingdoms extend as far as they can be extended.

[kannot]

As for what I have heard and read only minor parts of the border between Myanmar and Thailand is really agreed upon by both countries. I guess its because the border area in Myanmar have been controlled by other etnich people than the burmese themselves. For example such as Karen, Shan etc.

There are several very unofficial border crossings between Myanmar and Thailand in these areas such as the one on the photos attached. It is some 30-40 km south of Mae Sot and I was strongly recommended not to cross over there because there supposed to be rebellions on the other side that in worst case scenario could rob or even kidnap me anddemsnd ransome for me. I doubt however that anyone would have paid anything at all to get me free if so did happen.....LOL

But people from both sides were crossing freely over this little wooden pedestrian bridge with only a single solidier guarding it. He didnt check any paperwork at all though......

Sorry - the pics always get upside down when using the Ipad..... :-(

Proof if ever needed that Thai water runs uphill, that bridge has a slight lean on it............I may be stating the obvious?

[timmyp]

Thailand was intentionally shaped the way that it is so that it looks just like the head of an elephant.

[MikeENZ]

I haven't read Mapping Siam - looks interesting

I agree that history of Thailand is essential reading for anyone intending to stay here any length of time, and that the "official" interpretations of Thai history are risible......but which "History of Thailand" are you suggesting you don't cite the authors or ISBN?

the Baker/Phongpaichit is a great book, but the Wyatt in my opinion doesn't really even qualify as a proper history book.

Sorry - I meant Baker's book.

I really should have included amazon links.

The Thais will hate me for saying this, but heck .. Even the territory that we now know as Bangkok used to be Khmer territory at some stage, back centuries ago.

Edited December 9, 2014 by MikeENZ

[wilcopops]

And now its Owned by Rich Chinese Migrants ...

Ace - you need to check the history of Chinese migration into this region - it predates the nation of Thailand and now recent (last 100 years or so) is considered to account for 30% of the Thai population..... countries are made up of ethnic groups....and people who use this to their own advantage.

Edited December 9, 2014 by wilcopops

[Smurkster]

The Border between Laos in Thailand was created in 1893 when War Ships from France proceeded up the Chao Phraya river with their guns set on the palace. At that time The Rattonakosin Kingdom was very big and included all of modern cambodia and Laos, the french demanded a piece of Siam and Rama V relented with the risk of the whole country being colonised. He agreed that all territories on the other side of the Mekong river would be ceded to France( Thailand had taken over those territories which were the remnants of the Old Lan Xang kingdom in the early 1800's). The problem was, that arrangement broke up the Lao homeland into two different nation states (modern day Thailand and Modern Day Lao) leaving the Lao brethren separated from each other and as I said part of two different countries. There is a major incongruity with Lao people with the majority of them living in Thailand today and only about 1/3 of them living in their eponymous country on the other side of the Mekong...

I always say, without the French, modern day Laos would be part of Thailand today and the Lao language and culture would have been completely stamped out in favour of "siamese" dominate culture like it has been in Isan...At least with the modern day state of Laos, there is a country that the Lao people can continue and preserve their culture without fear of "Thaification" which sadly has been the case in Isan...

as to Burma's boundaries, I am not so well versed on this topic...

[soicee]

This is a concise summation of how the Thai/Lao border was established: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isan#History

[arjunadawn]

The borders were set by the British and French when Burma was a colony of Britain and Lao/Cambodia/Vietnam was a colony of France. Thailand used to claim part of Burma, Shan territories in the northeast of Burma, but was forced to give it up. Same with the land on the west side of the Mehkong river, France forced Thailand to give it to them, so it then became part of modern day Laos. The peninsula is split because there is a mountain range, one side is Thai the other side Burmese.

Very simplistic but fundamentally correct explanation.

Obviously one could go on and on and begin a massive thread arguing the intricacies, but DP25 has the basic answer clear in his posting. Good on yer!

Buy hey ,we were never colonised eh

You should really try reading a bit of history then you wouldn't have to post silliness.

Start with that and go from there http://www.ancient.eu/Khmer_Empire/

There were battles in many places and depending on the strength and courage of the monarchs, land was won and lost, Angkor Wat was once part of Thailand and at another the Khmer Empire covered most of what is now Thailand, Lao, Cambodia and Vietnam, while at another time Burmese armies occupied right across to the Chao Phraya river.

This was not colonization but spoils of war.

I am quite uncertain his question is silly. His question is also not related to your response regarding the shifting ancient landscape. You both have great info for a really curious topic. Perhaps the OP wants to just play on the forum with some nagging question of late.

[Smurkster]

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Isaan is an interesting case also. I'd always assumed that the 'Laos' were there because it used to be Lao territory. But more recently I read that, at one point, Thailand had occupied Lao territory up to what is now Vietnam (borders not being so clearly demarcated in those days) and forcibly moved Lao people across the Mekong into what is now Isaan in order to increase the population and agricultural output of that area. I can't vouch for the accuracy of this, of course.

I have also read this too, I have a few books on Lao/Isan history and this seems to be the case......

[LawrenceN]

The borders were set by the British and French when Burma was a colony of Britain and Lao/Cambodia/Vietnam was a colony of France. Thailand used to claim part of Burma, Shan territories in the northeast of Burma, but was forced to give it up. Same with the land on the west side of the Mehkong river, France forced Thailand to give it to them, so it then became part of modern day Laos. The peninsula is split because there is a mountain range, one side is Thai the other side Burmese.

Correct.

Read this:

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-518-9780824819743.aspx

You may be correct about more of the peninsula belonging to Siam in the past. I read Siam Mapped a few years ago, so don't remember the specifics. Mapping as we know it is a relatively new concept in Thailand. As the author explains in Siam Mapped, in antiquity, Siam and its neighbors were really networks of vassal relationships and agreements between warlords and powerful local leaders. The king (of Sukhothai, Lanna, Kentung, or Luang Prabang) was the guy at the top of the pyramid. Borders were ill-defined, fluid, and changed as battles were won and lost, leaders grew old and died, and daughters married off. There are illustrations in the book of old "maps" that are laughable, having no concept of distance, direction or spatial accuracy of any kind.

In the 19th century, the Brits were much more cooperative than the French. The Brits negotiated with Siam to define the borders with Burma and Malaya, even training the Siamese to survey and map their own borders. The French were more belligerent, including a blockade of Bangkok to get their way along the border with Laos. That's a taste of what's in the book, if you're interested in pursuing it.

[wilcopops]

I have a copy of a map of Siam printed in Rome Italy dated 1683 It shows the whole Malay/Thai peninsular from Johore in the South to Pegu in Myanmar as Siam.

South Myanmar is shown as Regno Di Pegu and North Myanmar as Regno Di Aracan.

The East side of Siam extends well over the river Mekong and is shown as Regno Di Cambodia and to the North as Popo Li Laos.

All land to the East is shown as Regno Di Cocincina (S Vietnam ) and to the North as Regno Di Tunquin (N. Vietnam)

The map to the North is cut off before Chiang Mai

This is two hundred years before any British and French influence .

No it isn't....and you have to question the accuracy of any map-maker then too.

[Smurkster]

Lan Xang at its height stretched from Southern Isan all the way to Northern Laos.... ລ້ານຊ້າງຂາວຂາວ"Lan Xang Hom Khao" or "one million elephants under a white umbrella" in Lao language

Edited December 9, 2014 by Smurkster

[Ace of Pop]

More interested in Leo than Lao these days

[Smurkster]

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More interested in Leo than Lao these days

hardy har har

[German Viking]

The borders were set by the British and French when Burma was a colony of Britain and Lao/Cambodia/Vietnam was a colony of France. Thailand used to claim part of Burma, Shan territories in the northeast of Burma, but was forced to give it up. Same with the land on the west side of the Mehkong river, France forced Thailand to give it to them, so it then became part of modern day Laos. The peninsula is split because there is a mountain range, one side is Thai the other side Burmese.

Don't asking me why I'm not surpriced that the british and the french was involved.

Looking in the middle east or in Africa how the borders are made.

I guess they was sitting together probably drunken took a ruler made some quick drawings on the map and then took the dices to decide who getting the right or the left side and gave a damn about the ppl who was living there for centuries. Maybe divided them or left them without land like for instance about 20 mill. kurds. This is the best way to create future conflicts like it is happend now for decades almost all over the world.

[Ace of Pop]

Re Ownership.My Version.....Chinese workers dug the Clongs in Bkk. Noticed Thais were idle,they industrious and not workshy .Hence Red Bull, Chang and all other successes are owned by Chin /Thai immigrant families.Because facts dont fit into some posters dreams , im sorry.Yesterdays dead.