Letter from two accused of Koh Tao murders to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi Myanmar Democracy icon

[JohnThailandJohn]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

Ummm the prosecution will have to give the court the test results with the dates that the tests were run. Those results have to match.

The DNA collected early on was sent to numerous labs and its markers were recorded in numerous reports. The suspects DNA is still in their body and can be tested over and over again with the semen DNA collected early on that also matched the DNA from cigarettes as reported early on when police were pointing the finger at other suspects.

[greenchair]

The prosecution will submit their evidence to the judge. The defense will not submit any counter claims to that evidence. They are expected to submit only, guilty, and why they are guilty. Or not guilty and why they are not guilty.basically they will say. We went to play guitar sang songs. Then went for a swim. We then went back to our room and fell asleep. Here is our proof to show we were sleeping.( should be some video of them going back to room ). These are our witness that we were in our room at x time.We know nothing. We are not guilty.

At that point the judge will look at both submissions and decide what is relevant to the trial. The judge will then release all information to each side, for fighting. The boys do not get to see the case against them. But the judge did warn,if they are guilty in any way . Now is the time to fess up!!! Their case cannot be based on nomsod or the fairy that we dont know did. It must be based on their own proof that it was not possible for them own selves to have done it. Forget the torture,the confessions, he did she did. They should give a minute by minute detail of what they were doing and where they were. And have that andy hall finding information to corroberate that.

[aimbc]

IMHO, I don't think the family read the entire 1,000 page report to come to that conclusion? Or did they read a summary highlighting what the prosecutor thinks will stick in court.

Has anyone ever watch a movie trailer and thought the movie was going to be great and came out disappointed later.

I think the family should not have made such a statement without reading the entire report and, closely examining the findings and even questioning it. And in its original content, Thai, as things do get lost in translation. I suppose the translation of the report were provided by RTP. It definitely sways public opinion and put in the question of fairness for the defendant.

So for all of those posters hanging on to the family statement as proof of a solid case, need to stop referring to it as proof that the police has a solid case.

[greenchair]

How to spell corroberate.

[thailandchilli]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

Ummm the prosecution will have to give the court the test results with the dates that the tests were run. Those results have to match.

The DNA collected early on was sent to numerous labs and its markers were recorded in numerous reports. The suspects DNA is still in their body and can be tested over and over again with the semen DNA collected early on that also matched the DNA from cigarettes as reported early on when police were pointing the finger at other suspects.

Being quite specific here, can you provide a credible source for the early DNA being sent to numerous labs with the markers recorded in numerous reports, and which early set of DNA are you referring to, the first set of 12 or the second larger set of 100?

[jdinasia]

IMHO, I don't think the family read the entire 1,000 page report to come to that conclusion? Or did they read a summary highlighting what the prosecutor thinks will stick in court.

Has anyone ever watch a movie trailer and thought the movie was going to be great and came out disappointed later.

I think the family should not have made such a statement without reading the entire report and, closely examining the findings and even questioning it. And in its original content, Thai, as things do get lost in translation. I suppose the translation of the report were provided by RTP. It definitely sways public opinion and put in the question of fairness for the defendant.

So for all of those posters hanging on to the family statement as proof of a solid case, need to stop referring to it as proof that the police has a solid case.

So you think that the families should not trust the UK police?

You think that the statements from the families influenced judges?

Edited December 12, 2014 by jdinasia

[Johnnie99]

Why contact her ... she's done nothing since the international organisation to ensure her happy release.

Biggest non-event of a'politician' since ... well, ever!

[greenchair]

Though the time frame between submission of evidence 18 dec and the beginning of case 26 dec does seem short.however i dont think they present arguement At this time. I think the judge just informs all parties how many witnesses will be accepted and how many days will be allocated to the trial. The real fight begins after that. I think the defense can ask for extra time to prepare at that time.

[aimbc]

IMHO, I don't think the family read the entire 1,000 page report to come to that conclusion? Or did they read a summary highlighting what the prosecutor thinks will stick in court.

Has anyone ever watch a movie trailer and thought the movie was going to be great and came out disappointed later.

I think the family should not have made such a statement without reading the entire report and, closely examining the findings and even questioning it. And in its original content, Thai, as things do get lost in translation. I suppose the translation of the report were provided by RTP. It definitely sways public opinion and put in the question of fairness for the defendant.

So for all of those posters hanging on to the family statement as proof of a solid case, need to stop referring to it as proof that the police has a solid case.

So you think that the families should not trust the UK police?

You think that the statements from the families influenced judges?

I think people should be able to form their own opinion and not believe others. Especially when you are talking about two human lives. This is not as trivial as you think.

JD, why do you make things up. I never wrote that it influence the judge, but it surely influenced you.

[jdinasia]

IMHO, I don't think the family read the entire 1,000 page report to come to that conclusion? Or did they read a summary highlighting what the prosecutor thinks will stick in court.

Has anyone ever watch a movie trailer and thought the movie was going to be great and came out disappointed later.

I think the family should not have made such a statement without reading the entire report and, closely examining the findings and even questioning it. And in its original content, Thai, as things do get lost in translation. I suppose the translation of the report were provided by RTP. It definitely sways public opinion and put in the question of fairness for the defendant.

So for all of those posters hanging on to the family statement as proof of a solid case, need to stop referring to it as proof that the police has a solid case.

So you think that the families should not trust the UK police?

You think that the statements from the families influenced judges?

I think people should be able to form their own opinion and not believe others. Especially when you are talking about two human lives. This is not as trivial as you think.

JD, why do you make things up. I never wrote that it influence the judge, but it surely influenced you.

So, the families get briefed by the UK police, they then issue a statement saying that there's powerful and convincing evidence, but that is not OK. However, people who have not been involved with anyone having direct contact with the investigation can speculate and say anything and that is OK? People do make up their own minds, even those that said that they would refrain from speculation are still at it ( having already made up their minds)

I asked you the question regarding the judges based on this "put in the question of fairness for the defendant." if the judges are not influenced then the trial will be fair.

[thailandchilli]

Though the time frame between submission of evidence 18 dec and the beginning of case 26 dec does seem short.however i dont think they present arguement At this time. I think the judge just informs all parties how many witnesses will be accepted and how many days will be allocated to the trial. The real fight begins after that. I think the defense can ask for extra time to prepare at that time.

Apparently it will go something like this which is the guide for UK nationals on trial but I would assume is the same for most nationalities:

- both civil and criminal trials are conducted by a judge (or a panel of 2 or 3 judges in the most

serious cases) sitting without a jury;

- all court proceedings are conducted in Thai;

- documents in a foreign language must be translated into Thai before they can be used in court;

- affidavits are generally not used;

- there is no pre-trial disclosure of documents;

- both civil and criminal trials do not take place on consecutive days. Evidence is admitted half a

day or one day at a time. The trial can then be adjourned for a number of weeks, or even

months, until the next date for admitting evidence. It therefore follows that trials can take a

number of months (or longer) to conclude.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/144204/Thailand_Prison_Pack.pdf

[thailandchilli]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

I am saying you are being economical with your understanding, in as much as the defense and prosecution turn stuff in by the same day. They turn it in to the judges not to the opposition. The witness lists etc are then examined by the judges for a week until the first hearing date.

Interesting can you provide a credible link for such precise knowledge on the judges taking a week to examine the the witness list until the first hearing?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Been reported numerous times that at least 3 labs were doing the testing. This is also why the University kid submitted his DNA to all three labs. Results are always recorded and those results are saved and shared with numerous people involved in the investigation and placed in records. There were MANY MANY people who had the results and were involved in the testing. The police collected hundreds of samples that needed to be compared.

Edited December 12, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[greenchair]

Yes,on the 18th the prosecutor will submit why they think the boys are guilty. The defence will submit why they think the boys are innocent. Both parties will then recieve copies of all evidence. On the 26th dec, the judge will inform both parties which evidence and which witnesses are relevant to the trial. He will also decide what date arguements will be on and how many days allocated to each party for the trial. I think this is right. It is correct that the defence do not recieve everything at this time as the judge might not even accept some of it. I dont know why andy hall doesnt know this.

[thailandchilli]

Been reported numerous times that at least 3 labs were doing the testing. This is also why the University kid submitted his DNA to all three labs. Results are always recorded and those results are saved and shared with numerous people involved in the investigation and placed in records. There were MANY MANY people who had the results and were involved in the testing. The police collected hundreds of samples that needed to be compared.

Perhaps you need to see my question again, you state its been reported numerous times, strange I have seen it nowhere and I have now looked numerous times, HINT I did not mention the fiasco with Nomsod:

"can you provide a credible source for the early DNA being sent to numerous labs with the markers recorded in numerous reports, and which early set of DNA are you referring to, the first set of 12 or the second larger set of 100?"

[lil fluffy clouds]

If these boys get off the whole country of thailand will have to change from the ground up...

Considering most of the economy appears to me to be "under the table" that's quite some hefty shift to take place...

Most people I feel understand this, and if most people are too afraid to make honest changes then the system itself will do anything to maintain the status quo, anything at all....

When people's financial security is threatened many appear to be able to rewrite the whole meaning of life to fit in with there own idea of economy....

How far this will go this time in thailand remains to be seen...

[MaxLee]

Yes,on the 18th the prosecutor will submit why they think the boys are guilty. The defence will submit why they think the boys are innocent. Both parties will then recieve copies of all evidence. On the 26th dec, the judge will inform both parties which evidence and which witnesses are relevant to the trial. He will also decide what date arguements will be on and how many days allocated to each party for the trial. I think this is right. It is correct that the defence do not recieve everything at this time as the judge might not even accept some of it. I dont know why andy hall doesnt know this.

They'll just wrap this up, then the Chief Island Operator will hire some thugs in jail, to torture the Burmese-Duo to death, then the warden can say "oops it was an accident, suicide, not our fault...."

End of the line, gameover,... Happily <deleted> ever after for Koh Tao Tourism.

[catsanddogs]

Off topic/on topic?

A FB post is stating that AC bar has reopened and has two new DJ's - British ones possibly. Be great if one of them was an undercover cop, but looking at the photos of them I doubt it. Embarrassed to be British right now.

[AleG]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Your theory of the DNA swap would necessarily involve the collusion of the UK authorities and the laboratory in Singapore that carried out the initial testing; it's a ridiculous idea with no facts or evidence to support it.

As for your second paragraph, it only serves to demonstrate that you are deliberately unwilling to accept any ideas or facts that would go against your preconceived notions, hardly the attitude of someone with any interest in finding out the truth.

[jdinasia]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

I am saying you are being economical with your understanding, in as much as the defense and prosecution turn stuff in by the same day. They turn it in to the judges not to the opposition. The witness lists etc are then examined by the judges for a week until the first hearing date.

Again, this is not what the defense has claimed, do I really have to link the exact text to you ? There is no room for error, their statement was explicit.

They have to submit their complete witness list by 18 December, whilst they do not know which evidence the prosecution is going to use against them. How do you suppose they would be able to defend the two accused if they don't know the evidence that the prosecution has on them. Meanwhile other people apparently do have access to this evidence. People that do not have their life on the line.

You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Andy Hall, from the trial moved up 2 months thread

"Nakhon explained to me in detail how Koh Tao case preliminary court hearing brought forward from Feb 25th 2015 to Dec 26th 2014 has the most serious and concerning implications for his preparation of the defense case against the charges laid against the defendants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo. He explained (see picture one) Samui court now demanded 10 sets of documents/evidence from both defense/prosecution to be submitted at same time by 18th Dec 2014 (in 7 days time), 7 days prior to the hearing on 26th Dec 2014.

"

[thailandchilli]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Your theory of the DNA swap would necessarily involve the collusion of the UK authorities and the laboratory in Singapore that carried out the initial testing; it's a ridiculous idea with no facts or evidence to support it.

As for your second paragraph, it only serves to demonstrate that you are deliberately unwilling to accept any ideas or facts that would go against your preconceived notions, hardly the attitude of someone with any interest in finding out the truth.

Be interesting to see a link that confirmed the initial tests went to Singapore, the only one I can see mentions they will be but the same article also mentions the FBI being called in

[mcm991]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Your theory of the DNA swap would necessarily involve the collusion of the UK authorities and the laboratory in Singapore that carried out the initial testing; it's a ridiculous idea with no facts or evidence to support it.

As for your second paragraph, it only serves to demonstrate that you are deliberately unwilling to accept any ideas or facts that would go against your preconceived notions, hardly the attitude of someone with any interest in finding out the truth.

Nothing was sent to Singapore. Nothing was sent to the UK either. What are you rattling on about..... ?

[sjaak327]

Andy Hall, from the trial moved up 2 months thread

"Nakhon explained to me in detail how Koh Tao case preliminary court hearing brought forward from Feb 25th 2015 to Dec 26th 2014 has the most serious and concerning implications for his preparation of the defense case against the charges laid against the defendants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo. He explained (see picture one) Samui court now demanded 10 sets of documents/evidence from both defense/prosecution to be submitted at same time by 18th Dec 2014 (in 7 days time), 7 days prior to the hearing on 26th Dec 2014.

"

You obivously didn't notice my earlier reaction to your last post on this issue.

Let me repeat it again.

As your post shows, the defense has indeed 7 days to present their evidence/witness list WITHOUT knowing the evidence that is being brought against them.

The prosecution has all the evidence, so for them it would not be difficult to present their case (otherwise they wouldn't have pressed charges) but the defense has no knowledge of the actual evidence that is going to be used against the defendants. So how do you propose they could submit their evidence /witness list ?

How can you contradict evidence which you know nothing about ?

In this case, the prosecution already has a 3-0 lead before the trial even begins, looks fair to you ? Not to me in any case.

[jdinasia]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Your theory of the DNA swap would necessarily involve the collusion of the UK authorities and the laboratory in Singapore that carried out the initial testing; it's a ridiculous idea with no facts or evidence to support it.

As for your second paragraph, it only serves to demonstrate that you are deliberately unwilling to accept any ideas or facts that would go against your preconceived notions, hardly the attitude of someone with any interest in finding out the truth.

Nothing was sent to Singapore. Nothing was sent to the UK either. What are you rattling on about..... ?

I don't know where the DNA sequencing was done for sure. I am amazed that you think you can speak in absolutes about it!

[uptheos]

What verdict in this case could possibly bring closure to the family of the victims?

[mcm991]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Your theory of the DNA swap would necessarily involve the collusion of the UK authorities and the laboratory in Singapore that carried out the initial testing; it's a ridiculous idea with no facts or evidence to support it.

As for your second paragraph, it only serves to demonstrate that you are deliberately unwilling to accept any ideas or facts that would go against your preconceived notions, hardly the attitude of someone with any interest in finding out the truth.

Nothing was sent to Singapore. Nothing was sent to the UK either. What are you rattling on about..... ?

I don't know where the DNA sequencing was done for sure. I am amazed that you think you can speak in absolutes about it!

There was initial talk about the FBI helping out and also sending samples for DNA testing to Singapore because no such facilities existed in Thailand.

Then it was all forgotton and it was mentioned on several occasions that all the DNA testing was done at various labs around the country including Chiangmai and others ... in record time too. I guess it all could be done here after all........ (I'll refrain from adding my own 2 cents at this point)

I'm too busy to dig up all the links now ........ but feel free to google it if you are interested.

[jdinasia]

Andy Hall, from the trial moved up 2 months thread

"Nakhon explained to me in detail how Koh Tao case preliminary court hearing brought forward from Feb 25th 2015 to Dec 26th 2014 has the most serious and concerning implications for his preparation of the defense case against the charges laid against the defendants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo. He explained (see picture one) Samui court now demanded 10 sets of documents/evidence from both defense/prosecution to be submitted at same time by 18th Dec 2014 (in 7 days time), 7 days prior to the hearing on 26th Dec 2014.

"

You obivously didn't notice my earlier reaction to your last post on this issue.

Let me repeat it again.

As your post shows, the defense has indeed 7 days to present their evidence/witness list WITHOUT knowing the evidence that is being brought against them.

The prosecution has all the evidence, so for them it would not be difficult to present their case (otherwise they wouldn't have pressed charges) but the defense has no knowledge of the actual evidence that is going to be used against the defendants. So how do you propose they could submit their evidence /witness list ?

How can you contradict evidence which you know nothing about ?

In this case, the prosecution already has a 3-0 lead before the trial even begins, looks fair to you ? Not to me in any case.

Scroll back up. You were objecting to my "both sides submit..." at the same time statement.

That is the system here.

It would appear more difficult at first for the defense, but they get to hold back witness lists, evidence that refutes the prosecution 's precis of the case etc.

With this system it is possible to create a defense that can crush the prosecution case with no advanced warning which is unusual in most places.

[Wilsonandson]

Guilty would bring closure. But the death penalty should be delayed for one year incase new evidence or an appeal is made.

[uty6543]

What verdict in this case could possibly bring closure to the family of the victims?

A guilty verdict of those who actually committed the crime.

[thailandchilli]

Guilty would bring closure. But the death penalty should be delayed for one year incase new evidence or an appeal is made.

I would agree on the last point, but I would qualify the guilty verdict as bringing closure only so long as it has seen to be a fair and transparent trial with compelling evidence against them