Danish tour operator halts 11 out of 17 elephant tours

[Commerce]

I did see someone mention Bargirls.... they are more stupid than elephants and allow all the abuse they take on a daily basis... But will Thai authorities ever stop this human abuse..? Not while money is being generated..!

Slight difference between Bargirl and elephant population quotas. Humans, in general, have choices. Elephants, on the other hand, do not. If woman was close to becoming extinct in 100 years, I'm sure we'd all be giving them free reign and ensuring nobody bemuses them!

[JohnThailandJohn]

Many people are often cruel to animals including dogs when training out of ignorance but abusing an animal, especially hitting an elephant, makes training much more difficult and longer. Just like training a dog or even a child their needs to be rewards and punishments .. their certainly doesn't need to be cruelty but just like with parents or guardians, some so called trainers are ignorant and cruel and should be punished.

You don't get it. There is no reward with the Thai "training" of elephants. Don't try to drag other animal's treatment into this. The OP was about elephants and the elephants are suffering at the expense of Thais trying to make a buck.

As I clearly stated there is no reason for cruelty in training and those doing it should be punished ... but feel free to distract, distort or be obtuse.

I have yet to see any credible reference to your position JTJ. Come on now... Thousands of years? Asian elephants? Give us a break.

That is because you don't look but rather keep spouting out nonsense like about elephants weak backs and can't support a couple people without possible injury.

Tame elephants have been recorded since the Indus Valley civilization around 2,000 BCE. With mahouts, they have been used as working animals in forestry, as war elephants (by commanders such as Hannibal), for cultural and ceremonial use (such as temple elephants), as a method of execution, for public displays such as circus elephants, in elephant polo and in zoological gardens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_elephants#History

The first historical record of the domestication of Asian elephants was in Harappan times. Ultimately, the elephant went on to become a siege engine, a mount in war, a status symbol, a beast of burden, and an elevated platform for hunting during historical times in South Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_elephant#Interaction_with_humans

Now that is twice I have corrected you and too many times have responded to your purposely being obtuse to my posts which I am clearly condemning those who are cruel in training animals. My opinion was simply that there is nothing wrong with people using animals for their benefit but that unnecessary cruelty is wrong even when it comes to those animals we slaughter for food. IMO banning things like elephant riding or zoos is ridiculous.

[SteveB2]

That's a good start. Get rid of this outlandish, ancient practice, and take pride in the last elephants left - give them protection and freedom.

Riding Elephants are terrible I agree now lets close down the sex tourist and their bars

Unless the 'suppliers make sure that the animals have optimal conditions'

[magnbol]

For centuries Asia has been using elephants that have been domesticated and used in the logging and other industries, this form of labour has been steadily replaced by automation, when this happens the income of the elephant owners slowly diminishes, alternative income must be sought, as one cannot return the animals to the wild because they have been domesticated and cannot fend for themselves. One of the alternatives is tourism; by cutting down support we are actually doing more damage to the domesticated elephants than good.

I firmly believe that if the elephant tourist industry is affected by bans, many will be effected people, families, including the elephants. This trade should be allowed to continue under close supervision of the responsible government agencies. However, replacement elephants should not be allowed, which will slowly diminish this popular industry.

Well what the article states is that the travel agent IS supporting elephant trekking IF IT'S carried out in a way that cares about the animal's welfare.

This is a way to actively change the way, some of the trekking vendors, treat their animals.

So it's a win win situation. If the Mahouts or trekking company's make sure that the elephants have a good life, as possible, they will be on the list of the "god" and they can keep up the business and the elephants get it better.

What's wrong about that?

[Katoom]

Sorry but IMO there is nothing wrong with riding an elephant as long as the animal is properly cared for which means it is at much less risk of death, disease and harm than in the wild.

I rather think that that is exactly what they are saying. You may care to read the OP once more.

[allan michaud]

Good news, I hope others will follow. If you want to see elephants (but not ride them) go to the Elephant Valley Project in Mondulkiri, Cambodia. They currently have 10 rescued/retired elephants that are enjoying life in the forest. This is how they should be being treated.

[annabel]

For centuries Asia has been using elephants that have been domesticated and used in the logging and other industries, this form of labour has been steadily replaced by automation, when this happens the income of the elephant owners slowly diminishes, alternative income must be sought, as one cannot return the animals to the wild because they have been domesticated and cannot fend for themselves. One of the alternatives is tourism; by cutting down support we are actually doing more damage to the domesticated elephants than good.

I firmly believe that if the elephant tourist industry is affected by bans, many will be effected people, families, including the elephants. This trade should be allowed to continue under close supervision of the responsible government agencies. However, replacement elephants should not be allowed, which will slowly diminish this popular industry.

The elephants can be relocated to real conservation camps and there are quite a few right now. These camps although more expensive for the tourist still offers great mahout training days without crazy mahouts and stupid big seats on their backs. And most important of all the elephants are well fed and well treated....

As for families and mahouts to lose their revenue.... well Thais are quite entrepreneurial when they want to and they will find another hobby to get revenue from /// I have no worries there

[luckyman]

"animal parks without focus on rehabilitation of animals that are reintroduced to nature"

This is a myth, animals cannot easily be re-submitted into nature at all, after they have been handled by humans, despite what many animal welfare charities and nat. geographic films want you to believe.

Especially wild life like elephants, monkeys and tigers will not adapt or get killed by their own.

[mok199]

excellent...

[BSJ]

I've never seen an elephant being abused by it's marhut. Maybe some do, but it the elephant throws a wobbly the marhut could end up in a whole lot of hurt!

[craigt3365]

What next, stop people from riding horses? Cruelty to animal is one thing, using animals with respect is another. We also kill and eat animals but this to can be done in a way that lessons cruelty. Groups like Peta believe it is cruel to even own a pet ... some things just go to far. We are the top of the food chain and generally we strive to be less savage to animals than they are to each other. If we get to the point of true equality with animals and fish as some people want and as many are pushing for but don't even realize this is where they are headed by constantly upping what is fair to animals then once this is accomplished we'll move to equality with plant life and demand all our food come from synthetic food and if we can't cure a disease without animal testing then we'll just have to accept that disease will not be cured.

Sorry but IMO there is nothing wrong with riding an elephant as long as the animal is properly cared for which means it is at much less risk of death, disease and harm than in the wild.

Once you've seen the videos showing how baby elephants are domesticated, you'll change your mind about riding them. Plus, the babies are taken from the wild and their mothers killed. This practice is decimating the wild elephant population. All this is done so tourists can ride them. And potentially get hurt or killed in the process.

We've got a place nearby that does elephant rides. The magnificent beasts are chained to trees until somebody shows up to ride them. Then poked and jabbed with a metal hook to walk around. Not a good way to treat animals, IMHO.

Re-read my post. I have seen many videos of people and animals being tortured for various reasons, certainly wasn't advocating such behavior and was clear am against it. Cruelty and torture is not the only way to domesticate an Elephant. Elephants have been tamed and used by people for thousands of years and their intelligence lends very easy to their not needing to be abused to be used to benefit people.

Sorry, but read up on how they are trained here in Thailand. It's incredibly brutal. And it's done when they are very young. How do you think they get them to paint and play football? Guaranteed it isn't by patting them on the back and feeding them treats like we do for dogs. They have to break them. Violently.

Elephants in the wild are incredibly dangerous. I was lucky to see many during a few safaris in Africa.

This breaks my heart to watch:

https://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/graphic-video-breaking-the-spirit-of-baby-elephants-for-domestication/

I think this explains it perfectly:

http://journals.worldnomads.com/responsible-travel/story/81053/Thailand/Why-Elephant-Riding-Should-Be-Removed-from-Your-Bucket-List

The Training

A long-time tradition in the Thai culture, the Phajaan or crush, is the training method elephants undergo to become a part of the tourism industry. As young elephants, they are torn from their mothers and entrapped in a small confine, then ritualistically abused with bullhooks and bamboo sticks spiked with nails, as well as starved, deprived of sleep and worse, to crush their spirits and become submissive to humans.

This is the general and accepted practice in Thailand, and the ones every elephant has undergone that is at a trekking camp or circus. If the fact the in order to be trained to be a part of tourism isn’t enough to convince you skip riding an elephant, there’s more.

[Mudcrab]

I did see someone mention Bargirls.... they are more stupid than elephants and allow all the abuse they take on a daily basis... But will Thai authorities ever stop this human abuse..? Not while money is being generated..!

What abuse of bargirls are you talking about?

Assault with a friendly weapon?

Get out of your feel good, brain washed western world and go and actually talk to some bargirls.

You will find some are in it for the money ...willingly .......and some are looking for husbands. A lot find husbands and go on to lead a perfectly normal life. No shame there.

They are not amongst the sensationalised human trafficking victims you read about in the West.

As far as the elephants are concerned - reduce their value by banning tourism and they will be slaughtered wholesale for whatever ivory is worth.

You might feel good that you have killed off the "abuse" of the creatures but have, at the same time, doomed them to extinction.

[Mudcrab]

What next, stop people from riding horses? Cruelty to animal is one thing, using animals with respect is another. We also kill and eat animals but this to can be done in a way that lessons cruelty. Groups like Peta believe it is cruel to even own a pet ... some things just go to far. We are the top of the food chain and generally we strive to be less savage to animals than they are to each other. If we get to the point of true equality with animals and fish as some people want and as many are pushing for but don't even realize this is where they are headed by constantly upping what is fair to animals then once this is accomplished we'll move to equality with plant life and demand all our food come from synthetic food and if we can't cure a disease without animal testing then we'll just have to accept that disease will not be cured.

Sorry but IMO there is nothing wrong with riding an elephant as long as the animal is properly cared for which means it is at much less risk of death, disease and harm than in the wild.

Once you've seen the videos showing how baby elephants are domesticated, you'll change your mind about riding them. Plus, the babies are taken from the wild and their mothers killed. This practice is decimating the wild elephant population. All this is done so tourists can ride them. And potentially get hurt or killed in the process.

We've got a place nearby that does elephant rides. The magnificent beasts are chained to trees until somebody shows up to ride them. Then poked and jabbed with a metal hook to walk around. Not a good way to treat animals, IMHO.

Re-read my post. I have seen many videos of people and animals being tortured for various reasons, certainly wasn't advocating such behavior and was clear am against it. Cruelty and torture is not the only way to domesticate an Elephant. Elephants have been tamed and used by people for thousands of years and their intelligence lends very easy to their not needing to be abused to be used to benefit people.

Sorry, but read up on how they are trained here in Thailand. It's incredibly brutal. And it's done when they are very young. How do you think they get them to paint and play football? Guaranteed it isn't by patting them on the back and feeding them treats like we do for dogs. They have to break them. Violently.

Elephants in the wild are incredibly dangerous. I was lucky to see many during a few safaris in Africa.

This breaks my heart to watch:

https://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/graphic-video-breaking-the-spirit-of-baby-elephants-for-domestication/

I think this explains it perfectly:

http://journals.worldnomads.com/responsible-travel/story/81053/Thailand/Why-Elephant-Riding-Should-Be-Removed-from-Your-Bucket-List

The Training

A long-time tradition in the Thai culture, the Phajaan or crush, is the training method elephants undergo to become a part of the tourism industry. As young elephants, they are torn from their mothers and entrapped in a small confine, then ritualistically abused with bullhooks and bamboo sticks spiked with nails, as well as starved, deprived of sleep and worse, to crush their spirits and become submissive to humans.

This is the general and accepted practice in Thailand, and the ones every elephant has undergone that is at a trekking camp or circus. If the fact the in order to be trained to be a part of tourism isn’t enough to convince you skip riding an elephant, there’s more.

A few years ago, on my first trip to Thailand to celebrate my brothers birthday , he wanted to bring a baby elephant to the party for the kids etc present to see.

Absolutely not allowed.

The babies HAD to be back with their mothers at night time.

For every horror story that is published on the web by fanatics to get people to bend to their will, there are a thousand everyday life situations where the reality is very, very different.

But few people want to see the ordinary....only the confronting for some reason.

[englishoak]

Many people are often cruel to animals including dogs when training out of ignorance but abusing an animal, especially hitting an elephant, makes training much more difficult and longer. Just like training a dog or even a child their needs to be rewards and punishments .. their certainly doesn't need to be cruelty but just like with parents or guardians, some so called trainers are ignorant and cruel and should be punished.

Elephants arnt dogs and they DO beat them and only a fool would compare the two ..... there is nothing kind about the manner used training an elephant. One of the biggest abusers of these animals are their so called friends and mahoots, whom are in it mainly for a salary and care little more for their elephant than a taxi driver does about his car.

Unbelievable some people are still ignorant of what actually goes on.

Thanks for not disappointing us JTJ

As a country Thailand's treatment of its own national animal symbol is an absolute disgrace, they care only about the money, the animal is always secondary. These days the money comes from tourism and your dollar or banana keeps the cycle going.

Edited December 13, 2014 by englishoak

[cgphuket]

A pattaya expat complaining about sex tourists?

That's a good start. Get rid of this outlandish, ancient practice, and take pride in the last elephants left - give them protection and freedom.

Riding Elephants are terrible I agree now lets close down the sex tourist and their bars

[Friendly Stranger]

I have to sadly admit that I've been on elephant excursions and seen the small gouges on the animal from the use of the handlers hook. My friend said never again and I agree. I don't believe they could actually change their ways on how they're treated for this purpose.

[jesimps]

What next, stop people from riding horses? Cruelty to animal is one thing, using animals with respect is another. We also kill and eat animals but this to can be done in a way that lessons cruelty. Groups like Peta believe it is cruel to even own a pet ... some things just go to far. We are the top of the food chain and generally we strive to be less savage to animals than they are to each other. If we get to the point of true equality with animals and fish as some people want and as many are pushing for but don't even realize this is where they are headed by constantly upping what is fair to animals then once this is accomplished we'll move to equality with plant life and demand all our food come from synthetic food and if we can't cure a disease without animal testing then we'll just have to accept that disease will not be cured.

Sorry but IMO there is nothing wrong with riding an elephant as long as the animal is properly cared for which means it is at much less risk of death, disease and harm than in the wild.

This must be about twice that I've agreed with one of your posts, people will talk. Anyway, agree 100%.

[Alwyn]

Take a look at the way elite Thais treat everyday ordinary Thais and housekeepers, chauffeurs, groundskeepers..etc. , and you can use your imagination to project the way that Thais treat their elephants.

With love and affection mostly or were you thinking it's the elite that look after the elephants. Up in the hills outside of Chiang Mai there's 80 elephants, I used to work close by and enjoyed visiting and talking to the guys working there. They'd move them into a secure pound in the evening, it was a sight to behold all the elephants going up the road to their various homes which included a garden of a house which had a sign telling you to watch out for the elephants. These people were knowledgeable and clearly had a great relationship with the animals and were running mahout courses etc. If people boycott this what will happen to the elephants? How will they get fed? How will the workers get fed?

[englishoak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyin_c2KMDU

elephant polo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6DRfNotlzA

How it is

Edited December 13, 2014 by englishoak

[HerbalEd]

I'd like to know which elephant tours/facilities they do approve of. Anyone here have any recommendations?

[Commerce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyin_c2KMDU

elephant polo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6DRfNotlzA

How it is

Not that I like the video... but I like your post - certainly an eye-opener for those who say no problem to the ways elephants are 'supposedly' treated here.

[boomerangutang]

What next, stop people from riding horses?

It's funny, I was going to mention horses, but JTJ beat me to it. However, we see it differently. I don't ride horses and I cringe slightly when I see people riding them - particularly on small Asian horses. Horses are smaller than elephants, so the humans they carry between their two sets of legs are heavier, proportionately. Elephants carry people on their necks/shoulders, essentially. I don't own any animals, and I don't care for using animals to carry people. Utility, ok, if it's not heavy (such as pack mules for a trek), if the animals are treated well.

As for wild animals in Thailand.... it's a despicable scenario. There are virtually no wild mammals in all of Thailand, other than bats and rats. A hill tribe friend took me to a very secluded little valley, with no roads, no wires, no fences, no houses - just some rice paddies and a grass bungalo. He said 20 years ago, there were wild elephants there, but then poachers came and took them to the tourist venue. I was with another hill tribe friend. We saw a pheasant-sized bird in the road. I asked him, "why is there a large bird here. I though you guys killed and ate every bird you find, larger than a sparrow?" He said, "the reason we don't kill that bird is it's a scavenger, and its flesh doesn't taste good."

[craigt3365]

I'd like to know which elephant tours/facilities they do approve of. Anyone here have any recommendations?

There's a place in Chiang Mai that's highly recommended. No riding allowed. I can't remember the name, but if the place offers riding, it's not really a proper reserve for these magnificent beasts.

[Boxclever]

I hope they ban these scams they claim as "tiger temples" next.

[moe666]

NGOs the scourage of the earth

[climbertrev1]

That's a good start. Get rid of this outlandish, ancient practice, and take pride in the last elephants left - give them protection and freedom.

Perhaps but it could be the end for the elephants. As their economic value declines they will simply be exterminated. Elephants being used for trekking is infinitely better than no elephants at all.

[H1w4yR1da]

Once you've seen the videos showing how baby elephants are domesticated, you'll change your mind about riding them. Plus, the babies are taken from the wild and their mothers killed. This practice is decimating the wild elephant population. All this is done so tourists can ride them. And potentially get hurt or killed in the process.

We've got a place nearby that does elephant rides. The magnificent beasts are chained to trees until somebody shows up to ride them. Then poked and jabbed with a metal hook to walk around. Not a good way to treat animals, IMHO.

Take a look at the way elite Thais treat everyday ordinary Thais and housekeepers, chauffeurs, groundskeepers..etc. , and you can use your imagination to project the way that Thais treat their elephants.

Thai Culture 101.

[craigt3365]

That's a good start. Get rid of this outlandish, ancient practice, and take pride in the last elephants left - give them protection and freedom.

Perhaps but it could be the end for the elephants. As their economic value declines they will simply be exterminated. Elephants being used for trekking is infinitely better than no elephants at all.

Elephants move too slow for trekking. Only really used for short tourist rides (which can actually be quite dangerous). If their economic value was reduced, they'd be left alone in the wild and/or their sanctuaries.

Here's the real problem for elephants:

http://www.foodworldnews.com/articles/10964/20141209/100-000-elephants-killed-by-china-for-ivory-african-elephants-could-disappear-from-the-wild-within-a-generation.htm

100,000 Elephants Killed By China For Ivory: ‘African Elephants Could Disappear From The Wild Within A Generation’

[quidnunc]

Once again JTJ proves his ignorance. Not only is the breaking-in procedure appalling, elephants have relatively weak spines for their size. It's one thing to have a mahout sitting on its neck but a couple of 100+ kilo tourists sitting on a wooden bench in the middle of their backs does a lot of damage.

In brute strength, elephants are the strongest mammals and the strongest land animals. African elephants can weigh up to 6,350kg and they can carry up to 9,000kg, the weight of 130 adult humans.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS582US582&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=how%20much%20weight%20can%20an%20elephant%20carry

THis must be true. After all, it's on the internet. In fact, it's nonsense. The largest African elephant weighs about 7000 kilograms. Anyone who knows anything about elephants knows that they can't carry anywhere near their own weight much less more than their weight.

[EyesWideOpen]

Even with issues of the treatment of the elephants aside, given the number of tourists that

have been killed by elephants during these tourists rides, I am amazed that any tour company

would offer the rides......