'New chapter' in US-Cuba ties

[wilcopops]

The "past history crap" listed here is exactly why it has taken so long to get to this point after all these years

Those individuals who lost their property because of the revolution abandoned it because the didn't want to live in communist Cuba.

Companies, especially the mob, lost their casino's, resorts and hotels because there was no longer a corrupt government to pay bribes to

The multi national companies lost their property (like the they did in many other South American countries when those government's nationalized certain industries) and they knew that was something that could always happen and was factored into their investments in the first place

Get over it , it is way past the time to move on

You have no idea what you are writing about. You have no idea how many people Castro killed. You have no idea what happened in Cuba in 1959.

Castro vowed in a speech to, "separate Americans in Cuba from all of their possessions, “down to the nails in their shoes."

No one minds you having an opinion but at least you could get the facts straight. Americans did not leave Cuba by choice; they were forced out; the alternative was death. I should have taken a photo of the bullet holes in my boat so I could send it to you.

Human rights awards won by Fidel Castro: 1 (the Muammar Gaddafi Human Rights Prize, presented in 1998 by the Libyan leader in recognition of Castro's "resistance to imperialism and defence of democratic values"

Castro, on abolishing general elections in 1961: "The revolution has no time for elections.

Cuba has 11 million people and 500 prisons.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-castropedia-fidels-cuba-in-facts-and-figures-432478.html

...and I guess we can all take comfort in the "knowledge" that the US has killed no-one since then?

[wilcopops]

Qarl Only fools believe such so called "best health care system" in Cuba, the same as in North Korea, which also claims to have the best health care system and the best educational system in the World. Do you believe that? And yeas, Cubans are nice people, American people and the US government don't hate Cuba and Cubans. Don't confuse Cubans with Cuban Communist government, those are totally two different things.

I am not a fool, Cuba as nothing to do or compare to North Korea, this is pure and simple propaganda. Have you been there to make such a comparison?

Cuba as a better life expectancy than the US, lower child mortality rate and a better literacy rate than the US.

There is no doubt that, communist or not, (and most people who use the word communist, use it as a term of abuse against anyone who isn't somewhere to the right of Attilla The Hun), the Cuban health system is one of the best in the world. As is their humanity which in many cases puts the so called 'First World' to shame. Even John Kerry probably wouldn't argue with that!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/03/cuba-global-medical-record-shames-us-blockade-ebola

Is that why so many try to escape? I think it should be pointed out that the people swim from Cuba to the USA not the reverse.

and the award for there most facile argument on this thread goes to..........

[wilcopops]

Ah, I don't want to interject reality into this fun fantasy but In 1960, Castro nationalized all U.S.-owned businesses, including oil refineries, factories and casinos. This prompted the United States to end diplomatic relations and impose a trade embargo that still stands today.

Castro stole billions of dollars from US owned companies that were owned not by the mob but by average Americans mom and pop stockholders.

So who is going to pay back mom and pop? He stole First National City Bank of New York, First National Bank of Boston and Chase Manhattan Bank and Texaco, Esso, and Shell oil refineries. He stole property homes and small businesses from 6000 Americans.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/18/cuba-you-owe-billion/jHAufRfQJ9Bx24TuzQyBNO/igraphic.html?p1=Article_Graphic

He owes us 7 billion US dollars. Who gonna pay? I don't care how you guys paint his picture . A thief is a thief. He stole money from me and I want my money back.

Having a perspective is reasonable. We all do. Presenting that perspective as reality is not. All governments reserve the righ to nationalise industries at will. The US did it with railroads early last Century. The Brits did it with Coal after WWII. Wikipedia has an entry on nationalisation. It lists dozens of countries and their nationalisations over the years. The circumstances for each case will be different and the merits, causes and consequences can and are argued but the mere act of nationalisation is not thievery. Investors, or at least successful investors, take into account things like political risk. US investors in companies doing business in Cuba before the revolution should expect the same treatment as any other investor. They make their decisions based on available information and an assessment of risk.

Who is going to give your money back? Nobody. It was the risk you took in making the investment. Some pay off, some don't.

After the 97 crisis and the fall of the SET, I remember there was a march by SET investors down Wireless Road (I think the SET was at Sirindhorn Bldg then) demanding their money back. Your plea reminds me of this. Lets unpick the entire function of capital markets just to serve an ideological lesson on Cuba. Or lets understand the risks of doing business with violent, right wing regimes as was the case with Cuba before the revolution.

https://twitter.com/billmaher "Obama just goes down the list reversing stupidities of the past" Bil Maher. Correct again.

Cuba stole personal property. If the USA or Switzerland stole my personal property I would sue. I will eventually get my money back. Because I will never give in.

very unfortunate choice of VIP to back up your argument........get to know your history and his relationship with Cuba.

[wilcopops]

Ah, I don't want to interject reality into this fun fantasy but In 1960, Castro nationalized all U.S.-owned businesses, including oil refineries, factories and casinos. This prompted the United States to end diplomatic relations and impose a trade embargo that still stands today.

Castro stole billions of dollars from US owned companies that were owned not by the mob but by average Americans mom and pop stockholders.

So who is going to pay back mom and pop? He stole First National City Bank of New York, First National Bank of Boston and Chase Manhattan Bank and Texaco, Esso, and Shell oil refineries. He stole property homes and small businesses from 6000 Americans.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/18/cuba-you-owe-billion/jHAufRfQJ9Bx24TuzQyBNO/igraphic.html?p1=Article_Graphic

He owes us 7 billion US dollars. Who gonna pay? I don't care how you guys paint his picture . A thief is a thief. He stole money from me and I want my money back.

you might want to ask WHY this happened - it was as ever the US's totally ignorant foreign policies that set the ball rolling.......a national paranoia concerning the word "communism" and a totally parochial outlook on the world.

[wilcopops]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

[thailiketoo]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it.

[thailiketoo]

Ah, I don't want to interject reality into this fun fantasy but In 1960, Castro nationalized all U.S.-owned businesses, including oil refineries, factories and casinos. This prompted the United States to end diplomatic relations and impose a trade embargo that still stands today.

Castro stole billions of dollars from US owned companies that were owned not by the mob but by average Americans mom and pop stockholders.

So who is going to pay back mom and pop? He stole First National City Bank of New York, First National Bank of Boston and Chase Manhattan Bank and Texaco, Esso, and Shell oil refineries. He stole property homes and small businesses from 6000 Americans.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/18/cuba-you-owe-billion/jHAufRfQJ9Bx24TuzQyBNO/igraphic.html?p1=Article_Graphic

He owes us 7 billion US dollars. Who gonna pay? I don't care how you guys paint his picture . A thief is a thief. He stole money from me and I want my money back.

you might want to ask WHY this happened - it was as ever the US's totally ignorant foreign policies that set the ball rolling.......a national paranoia concerning the word "communism" and a totally parochial outlook on the world.

Prophetic that Churchill stayed in Cuba before he traveled north and later delivered the famous ‘Iron curtain’ speech in Fulton, Missouri. I'd have to say that Churchill was the leading anti communist of the era.

Edited December 18, 2014 by thailiketoo

[thailiketoo]

very unfortunate choice of VIP to back up your argument........get to know your history and his relationship with Cuba.

I refer you to the two above posts.

[rijb]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

It's clear you have perfect hindsight.

[anon022]

after the fall of the berlin wall & russian empiry, they should have done something to stop this nonsense

but hey, make the people scared of the red invasion, good for spending super big amounts on military

in stead of FREE HEALTCARE, as in the rest of the civilized world !!!!

There is no free healthcare in the rest of the "civilized" world, not even in the UK. There, it's a government scheme, and funded with "revenue" from taxes, and as you would expect from a trusty rusty inefficient bureaucratic government system, it's pretty lousy, and the "care" in health care should be replaced by something else like "giving false hope".

However, the Cuban healthcare system, yeah, now you're talking, and it is free.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Impossible

[wilcopops]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it.

OMG QED!!! - " History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it. " - I think this comment speaks for itself and completely supports my opinion of US interpretation of history.

Edited December 19, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

It's clear you have perfect hindsight.

that's what history is all about.

[thailiketoo]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it.

OMG QED!!! - " History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it. " - I think this comment speaks for itself and completely supports my opinion of US interpretation of history.

I was in Cuba and Florida when Castro and his firing squads took over. Where where you? How did you learn about the revolution in Cuba? Tell me why is your second hand pub opinion better than my first hand knowledge?

Edited December 19, 2014 by thailiketoo

[klikster]

I think it should be pointed out that the people swim from Cuba to the USA not the reverse.

You're joking, right? The list of humans who have made the swim from Florida to Cuba is very short!

Maybe you should point out a list of Cubans who have made the swim to Florida.

[thailiketoo]

I think it should be pointed out that the people swim from Cuba to the USA not the reverse.

You're joking, right? The list of humans who have made the swim from Florida to Cuba is very short!

Maybe you should point out a list of Cubans who have made the swim to Florida.

Yes I was joking. My point is hundreds of thousands of Cubans have escaped Cuba to the USA not the reverse. Cuba is not a workers paradise it is a totalitarian dictatorship filled with deprivation and despair.

[sanuk711]

"Yes I was joking. My point is hundreds of thousands of Cubans have escaped Cuba to the USA not the reverse. Cuba is not a workers paradise it is a totalitarian dictatorship filled with deprivation and despair."----thailiketoo

.

thailiketoo, I do not think anyone is saying its a workers paradise--- but what you do seem to be insinuating is that it was a free & open society before the uprising, if you lived there (& I do not doubt your word at all) under Fulgencio Batista, then you will know that this was far from the case--- Also when we talk about the Castro led takeover, please do remind the readers how the leader he (Castro) replaced got to be there..... Maybe he was democratically elected, ? Not quite was it thailiketoo. Batista (who was part of the army) first seized power in a 1932 coup, he was immediately recognized by America -President Roosevelt---to be fine & legitimate. After several years, Batista then left to retire & live in Miami, returning in 1952 as the people had elected Carlos Prio Socorras as President, a person who because of the social reform platform he ran on didn't suit a certain foreign government, Batista overthrew the democratically elected government . Once again his new regime was quickly recognized by President Eisenhower, & under Batista new rule, U.S. interests flourished and very little was said about democracy--or lack of it.

With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters.

In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising . Castro fled the country but Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of (so called) "communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite all this, Batista & Cuba remained a friend to Eisenhower and the USA until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959. Then it--Cuba- became the pariah & evil country that it is (to America) to-day.

With your comment about people leaving Cuba for the west-- please do put it in contexts, Doctors there are trained to a high standard in one of the better health care systems in the world, but are paid $70, so if I was one of those (or any of the other top professional's they train, engineers etc) I would much rather be doing plastic surgery in Miami, then helping the elderly people of Havana. I think its long been recognized in America, that what you get out of Cuba are far from what one would refer to as model citizens.....(I am not even mentioning Scarface) Another way if you do not accept this as a valid point thailiketoo is try matching the figures of the people wanting to get out Cuba before 1961....or want to get out from their neighboring countries ..Haiti etc.

Edited December 19, 2014 by sanuk711

[impulse]

You buy stuff from people who stole it? It's called receiving stolen property. That's exactly what those "foreign owned assets" were. Stolen from the Cuban people by a corrupt regime.

I'd suggest Mom and Pop go after the CEOs of the companies who willingly and knowingly bought stolen property with their investment money.

You may try to get it back from the Batista guys who stole it from the Cuban people and sold it to the corporations- making $$ billions in the process.

Probably have better luck with the CEO's though.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about vacation homes, farms and sailboats. I didn't steal anything from any Cuban person. I built a home, farmed a farm and sailed a sailboat. I brought money from Florida and put it in a bank in Cuba and Fidel stole it just like a bank robber.

My apologies for my poor choice of words.

I did not mean to insinuate you did anything wrong. In fact, what happened to you was just wrong- now that you’ve given more personal detail.

But I have less sympathy for Big Agra who bribed their way to sweetheart deals on land Batista's folks stole from the peasants, Big Oil who bribed their way to sweetheart deals on land and refining concessions, or the Mafia, who bribed their way into trying to make Havana the sperm receptacle and gambling den of Latin America.

Then expected our government (military, actually) to go in and take out the cause of their woes- like we did in so many other Latin American countries at the time.

And what we’re talking about here is sanctions punishing people whose grandparents weren’t even born when it all happened to you and the other 6,000 Americans. Denying them full participation in the world economy. (Though the Cubans should be careful what they wish for).

[thailiketoo]

"Yes I was joking. My point is hundreds of thousands of Cubans have escaped Cuba to the USA not the reverse. Cuba is not a workers paradise it is a totalitarian dictatorship filled with deprivation and despair."----thailiketoo

.

thailiketoo, I do not think anyone is saying its a workers paradise--- but what you do seem to be insinuating is that it was a free & open society before the uprising, if you lived there (& I do not doubt your word at all) under Fulgencio Batista, then you will know that this was far from the case--- Also when we talk about the Castro led takeover, please do remind the readers how the leader he (Castro) replaced got to be there..... Maybe he was democratically elected, ? Not quite was it thailiketoo. Batista (who was part of the army) first seized power in a 1932 coup, he was immediately recognized by America -President Roosevelt---to be fine & legitimate. After several years, Batista then left to retire & live in Miami, returning in 1952 as the people had elected Carlos Prio Socorras as President, a person who because of the social reform platform he ran on didn't suit a certain foreign government, Batista overthrew the democratically elected government . Once again his new regime was quickly recognized by President Eisenhower, & under Batista new rule, U.S. interests flourished and very little was said about democracy--or lack of it.

With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters.

In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising . Castro fled the country but Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of (so called) "communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite all this, Batista & Cuba remained a friend to Eisenhower and the USA until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959. Then it--Cuba- became the pariah & evil country that it is (to America) to-day.

With your comment about people leaving Cuba for the west-- please do put it in contexts, Doctors there are trained to a high standard in one of the better health care systems in the world, but are paid $70, so if I was one of those (or any of the other top professional's they train, engineers etc) I would much rather be doing plastic surgery in Miami, then helping the elderly people of Havana. I think its long been recognized in America, that what you get out of Cuba are far from what one would refer to as model citizens.....(I am not even mentioning Scarface) Another way if you do not accept this as a valid point thailiketoo is try matching the figures of the people wanting to get out Cuba before 1961....or want to get out from their neighboring countries ..Haiti etc.

You're getting a bit carried away. The same gambling and club business interests that were in Cuba also built Las Vegas and managed Las Vegas for quite some time. So everything you are saying about Cuba and the mob can also be said about Las Vegas. Ho hum, not news. Castro said his people could leave once and in one month 86, 488 did. Al Capone (scarface) went to prison in 1931 and died in Florida after he got out of jail. That puts it into context.

[ricklev]

A semi-realistic immigration policy, kind of, and now attempting to end the absurd Cuban economic embargo. I hope Obama continues doing the common sense things he can do which everybody on the right and the left knows makes sense but nobody had the political will or courage to do. Took him long enough........

[mopar71]

I wonder if this is in part due to the strained relationship with Russia and a chance to make some in roads while the Ruble is not doing so well?

I always say don't do something for only one reason. On one hand, young Cuban-Americans overwhelmingly love this move (so do I). Another angle is that Russia had been planning to reopen a spy base on Cuba...

Russia has quietly reached an agreement with Cuba to reopen a Soviet-era spy base on America's doorstep, amid souring relations between Moscow and Washington.

The deal to reopen the signals intelligence facility in Lourdes, south of Havana, was agreed in principle during president Vladimir Putin's visit to the island as part of a Latin American tour last week, according to the newspaper Kommersant.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/russia-reopening-spy-base-cuba-us-relations-sour

[thailiketoo]

You buy stuff from people who stole it? It's called receiving stolen property. That's exactly what those "foreign owned assets" were. Stolen from the Cuban people by a corrupt regime.

I'd suggest Mom and Pop go after the CEOs of the companies who willingly and knowingly bought stolen property with their investment money.

You may try to get it back from the Batista guys who stole it from the Cuban people and sold it to the corporations- making $$ billions in the process.

Probably have better luck with the CEO's though.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about vacation homes, farms and sailboats. I didn't steal anything from any Cuban person. I built a home, farmed a farm and sailed a sailboat. I brought money from Florida and put it in a bank in Cuba and Fidel stole it just like a bank robber.

My apologies for my poor choice of words.

I did not mean to insinuate you did anything wrong. In fact, what happened to you was just wrong- now that you’ve given more personal detail.

But I have less sympathy for Big Agra who bribed their way to sweetheart deals on land Batista's folks stole from the peasants, Big Oil who bribed their way to sweetheart deals on land and refining concessions, or the Mafia, who bribed their way into trying to make Havana the sperm receptacle and gambling den of Latin America.

Then expected our government (military, actually) to go in and take out the cause of their woes- like we did in so many other Latin American countries at the time.

And what we’re talking about here is sanctions punishing people whose grandparents weren’t even born when it all happened to you and the other 6,000 Americans. Denying them full participation in the world economy. (Though the Cubans should be careful what they wish for).

Castro's (The Freedom Fighter) net worth $900,000,000 US dollars speaking of sympathy for Big Agra.

[Tep]

It's clear by some of the replies on this thread that some Americans actually BELIEVED the history they were taught at school and still cling unquestioningly to those myths and propaganda that they were fed.

History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it.

OMG QED!!! - " History books, no need. Some of us were there to see it. " - I think this comment speaks for itself and completely supports my opinion of US interpretation of history.

I was in Cuba and Florida when Castro and his firing squads took over. Where where you? How did you learn about the revolution in Cuba? Tell me why is your second hand pub opinion better than my first hand knowledge?

Your mere presence at an event does not indicate that you had any influence over that event or that your perspective of that event is the 'Truth'. Unless you were working at official levels of the Batista Regime, the US government, certain Corporate entities, the Revolutionaries or the Mafie, I would suggest that the scope of your grasp on the Revolution derived from your actual presence is minimal.

Many of us were in Bangkok during the Red Shirt take over. I do not see consensus about the causes and consequences of this social movement and at the time I was actually working at policy levels with the Thai government.

Analysis of history starts with the discovery and interpretation of primary sources. Not just one source but many. Previously, this was limited to excavated ruins, then documents became available and now there are a plethora of sources on different media for modern historical events. Eyewitnesses are a primary source. You are a primary source. But that is the limit to your claim on the interpretation of the Cuban Revolution without, like the rest of us, going to other primary sources (which is unlikely) and then moving on to secondary sources, which is basically other people's interpretations of primary sources.

All all that above does not address the issue of how your perspective may be influenced by ethnicity or socio-cultural biases or your personal developmental age etc.

Many modern commentators may look at this as a bit of an old joke. Of course it is way past time relations between Cuba and the US were normalised. I think the views of the Cuban Americans have been way over-represented. But Cuba was involved in one of the most serious and potentially devastating events of the cold war. I was an infant and knew nothing of it but could have grown up in a very different world if things had gone differently. So there is some weight that should be given to this development but really, it is way past time this mosquito sized anomaly in global affairs was fixed.

[thailiketoo]

I was in Cuba and Florida when Castro and his firing squads took over. Where where you? How did you learn about the revolution in Cuba? Tell me why is your second hand pub opinion better than my first hand knowledge?

Your mere presence at an event does not indicate that you had any influence over that event or that your perspective of that event is the 'Truth'. Unless you were working at official levels of the Batista Regime, the US government, certain Corporate entities, the Revolutionaries or the Mafie, I would suggest that the scope of your grasp on the Revolution derived from your actual presence is minimal.

Many of us were in Bangkok during the Red Shirt take over. I do not see consensus about the causes and consequences of this social movement and at the time I was actually working at policy levels with the Thai government.

Analysis of history starts with the discovery and interpretation of primary sources. Not just one source but many. Previously, this was limited to excavated ruins, then documents became available and now there are a plethora of sources on different media for modern historical events. Eyewitnesses are a primary source. You are a primary source. But that is the limit to your claim on the interpretation of the Cuban Revolution without, like the rest of us, going to other primary sources (which is unlikely) and then moving on to secondary sources, which is basically other people's interpretations of primary sources.

All all that above does not address the issue of how your perspective may be influenced by ethnicity or socio-cultural biases or your personal developmental age etc.

Many modern commentators may look at this as a bit of an old joke. Of course it is way past time relations between Cuba and the US were normalised. I think the views of the Cuban Americans have been way over-represented. But Cuba was involved in one of the most serious and potentially devastating events of the cold war. I was an infant and knew nothing of it but could have grown up in a very different world if things had gone differently. So there is some weight that should be given to this development but really, it is way past time this mosquito sized anomaly in global affairs was fixed.

Speaking of Cuba nationalizing private property you wrote, "After the 97 crisis and the fall of the SET, I remember there was a march by SET investors down Wireless Road (I think the SET was at Sirindhorn Bldg then) demanding their money back."

The two events have nothing in common and demonstrate your lack of understanding of the Cuban revolution specifically and economic events in general.

I was in Thailand when the yellow shirts shut down the airport and know how much money was lost. I was in Vietnam for the Tet offensive and realize how quickly we won the battle. I was in South Florida when the Castro firing squads were shooting people and know the families of people who were shot. One of the posters above had the audacity to say the Americans left their homes and investments in Cuba voluntarily and I remember the bullet holes in my boat.

I was flying to Laos to rescue Thai troops when the morning headlines in Bangkok read, "No Thai troops in Laos." Sometimes one just has to be there to get the real story.

You can belittle my firsthand experience. It wouldn't be the first time first hand experience was ignored. Castro is a crook and he stole $900,000,000 from the Cuban people and put it in his own bank account (Forbes and my opinion).

Free people can get tired of waiting for justice and let tyrants get away with it. It would certainly not be the first time.

I am all for normalizing relationships with Cuba. Give the people who were robbed an IOU and go right ahead. Can't get blood out of a stone. I'm all for a prosperous capitalistic Cuba so they can pay me back without starving or causing undue hardship.

[German Viking]

It is a constant source of surprise to see that despite their overwhelming technology, finance and numbers US foreign policy is time and again so plainly ignorant and wide of the mark...at least here common sense is starting to prevail....after 50 YEARS!!!!

When the "Revolution" put the Communist Dictator Fidel Castro in power in Cuba, he aligned himself with the Soviet Union. This was during the Cold War.

Castro allowed Russia to put nuclear missiles just 90 miles off the shores of the US in Cuba. This is known as "The Cuban Missile Crisis." It could have started WWIII as could have other events not involving Cuba during the Cold War.

Castro was belligerent to the US from the start, flexing his muscles as he accepted a lot of cash and military support from the USSR. He continued to get cash support from the USSR until it went belly up.

The whole thing got off to a bad start and Fidel was never trusted. Additionally, the US doesn't normally do business with military dictators who hold power by force.

The "common sense is starting to prevail....after 50 YEARS!!!!" part has to do with a new leader who seems to want to mesh with the West. I have high hopes for this as it would be good for everyone.

IMO Fidel Castro is a Bastard and Hypocrite.

He preached his folk water and he drank Champagner still.

He is living a luxery life on a small Island which belongs to Cuba, this was the main reason why Che Guevara early split up from him.

I wish the folk of Cuba a better life in the future they deserve it

[zydeco]

One thing I do know is that "Mr. History" produces some of the most constipated prose I have ever read on TVF. With or without primary sources.

[Scott]

Thailiketoo, thanks for sharing some of the first hand information about the time when you were there. It does give some depth and perspective to the situation.

When the big boys play politics, it's the ordinary people who pay the price.

[impulse]

Castro's (The Freedom Fighter) net worth $900,000,000 US dollars speaking of sympathy for Big Agra.

Yup, and the guy he displaced fled with:

Critics accused Batista and his supporters of taking as much as $700 million in fine art and cash with them as they fled into exile

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

And that was 1958 dollars- dwarfing the $900M that Castro is alleged to have stolen (If you believe Forbes- and I don't) . And I believe his regime shot more than the Castro regime, though I don't have the numbers in hand.

But that's all beside the point- which is that we're sanctioning the grandkids and great-grandkids of the guys who perpetrated these actions.

[thailiketoo]

Thailiketoo, thanks for sharing some of the first hand information about the time when you were there. It does give some depth and perspective to the situation.

When the big boys play politics, it's the ordinary people who pay the price.

In case anyone wants to know about bullet holes in boats to be honest I was shot at by both sides Batista and Castro. I was a kid at the time and thought it was a big adventure. My father did not feel the same.

Edited December 19, 2014 by thailiketoo

[thailiketoo]

Castro's (The Freedom Fighter) net worth $900,000,000 US dollars speaking of sympathy for Big Agra.

Yup, and the guy he displaced fled with:

Critics accused Batista and his supporters of taking as much as $700 million in fine art and cash with them as they fled into exile

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

And that was 1958 dollars- dwarfing the $900M that Castro is alleged to have stolen (If you believe Forbes- and I don't) . And I believe his regime shot more than the Castro regime, though I don't have the numbers in hand.

But that's all beside the point- which is that we're sanctioning the grandkids and great-grandkids of the guys who perpetrated these actions.

Trying to be even handed in this discussion the Batista money was probably from tourist gambling and not from Cuban people.

Bastista was also elected President of Cuba from 1940 to 1944. He left and went to live in the USA and returned to run again for President in 1952 (see boat shot at first time). About 10% of Cuba's population lives in the USA.

It didn't look like he was going to win another term so he had a coup and was a dictator from 52 to 59 when overthrown by Castro.

Edited December 19, 2014 by thailiketoo

[anon022]

I was in Cuba and Florida when Castro and his firing squads took over. Where where you? How did you learn about the revolution in Cuba? Tell me why is your second hand pub opinion better than my first hand knowledge?

Your mere presence at an event does not indicate that you had any influence over that event or that your perspective of that event is the 'Truth'. Unless you were working at official levels of the Batista Regime, the US government, certain Corporate entities, the Revolutionaries or the Mafie, I would suggest that the scope of your grasp on the Revolution derived from your actual presence is minimal.

Many of us were in Bangkok during the Red Shirt take over. I do not see consensus about the causes and consequences of this social movement and at the time I was actually working at policy levels with the Thai government.

Analysis of history starts with the discovery and interpretation of primary sources. Not just one source but many. Previously, this was limited to excavated ruins, then documents became available and now there are a plethora of sources on different media for modern historical events. Eyewitnesses are a primary source. You are a primary source. But that is the limit to your claim on the interpretation of the Cuban Revolution without, like the rest of us, going to other primary sources (which is unlikely) and then moving on to secondary sources, which is basically other people's interpretations of primary sources.

All all that above does not address the issue of how your perspective may be influenced by ethnicity or socio-cultural biases or your personal developmental age etc.

Many modern commentators may look at this as a bit of an old joke. Of course it is way past time relations between Cuba and the US were normalised. I think the views of the Cuban Americans have been way over-represented. But Cuba was involved in one of the most serious and potentially devastating events of the cold war. I was an infant and knew nothing of it but could have grown up in a very different world if things had gone differently. So there is some weight that should be given to this development but really, it is way past time this mosquito sized anomaly in global affairs was fixed.

Speaking of Cuba nationalizing private property you wrote, "After the 97 crisis and the fall of the SET, I remember there was a march by SET investors down Wireless Road (I think the SET was at Sirindhorn Bldg then) demanding their money back."

The two events have nothing in common and demonstrate your lack of understanding of the Cuban revolution specifically and economic events in general.

I was in Thailand when the yellow shirts shut down the airport and know how much money was lost. I was in Vietnam for the Tet offensive and realize how quickly we won the battle. I was in South Florida when the Castro firing squads were shooting people and know the families of people who were shot. One of the posters above had the audacity to say the Americans left their homes and investments in Cuba voluntarily and I remember the bullet holes in my boat.

I was flying to Laos to rescue Thai troops when the morning headlines in Bangkok read, "No Thai troops in Laos." Sometimes one just has to be there to get the real story.

You can belittle my firsthand experience. It wouldn't be the first time first hand experience was ignored. Castro is a crook and he stole $900,000,000 from the Cuban people and put it in his own bank account (Forbes and my opinion).

Free people can get tired of waiting for justice and let tyrants get away with it. It would certainly not be the first time.

I am all for normalizing relationships with Cuba. Give the people who were robbed an IOU and go right ahead. Can't get blood out of a stone. I'm all for a prosperous capitalistic Cuba so they can pay me back without starving or causing undue hardship.

So how much is 900,000,000 over what, 50 years? Not even $18M annually. And the man happened to rid the country of much of the scum of the Earth, like it or not. Furthermore, he gave the Cuban people free and very good health care, you and your fellow Americans, and the rest of the world for that matter, can only dream of. It's hailed by the UN and WHO, as The model to follow look it up, easy enough.

I guess that alone justifies the $18M he earned, not stole, per year. Let's look at what was kept from the Cubans under your good friend Batista.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Impossible