Israel dismisses Palestinian peace deal plan as 'gimmick'

[Ulysses G.]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

This time UG has busted his own myth.

According to UG himself the Jewish population of Palestine in 1890 was 6% and 94% Palestinian. So much for your "lots of land with no-one on it" nonsense.

More nonsense as per usual. What do those figures have to do with empty land? Those are not "my figures" anyway. The truth is that no one knows what the breakdown was back then as there was no accurate census. However, whatever the population breakdown really was, they were on usable land. Much of Palestine back then was barren desert, until the Jews made the desert bloom.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (Mark Twain. The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

As for your second foolish comment, there have been Jews in the area continuously for 3,000 years and there is plenty of evidence, which I have posted over and over again. No one - but you - said that they "controlled it" the whole time. They lived there.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

This time UG has busted his own myth.

According to UG himself the Jewish population of Palestine in 1890 was 6% and 94% Palestinian. So much for your "lots of land with no-one on it" nonsense.

More nonsense as per usual. What do those figures have to do with empty land? Those are not "my figures" anyway. The truth is that no one knows what the breakdown was back then as there was no accurate census. However, whatever the population breakdown really was, they were was on usable land. Much of Palestine back then was barren desert until the Jews made the desert bloom.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (Mark Twain. The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

As for your second foolish comment, there have been Jews in the area continuously for 3,000 years and there is plenty of evidence, which I have posted over and over again. No one - but you - said that they "controlled it" the whole time. They lived there.

6% Jewish popualtion in 1890 is exactly what you said in the link I gave....caught out in a lie eh? My sources said 2% ...I allowed your fabrication some leeway.

The Mark Twain myth is debunked here

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story845.html

Mark Twain visited very briefly in the middle of a hot Mediterranean summer, compared the land to fertile lands of USA, and was purely anecdotal..he hadn't a clue about and was not interested in Palestinian demographics or agriculture.

But Zionist apologists treat his anecdotal comment as though he were surveyor general.

Another of your myths debunked, UG.

Doesn't it ever worry you that your whole support for the Zionist state of Israel is built on a pack of lies.

Edited December 22, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

And the desert that was mostly Palestine before Israel and Golda Meyer - a nice Jewish grandmother from Chicago btw has now turned into a garden of democracy amongst savages that surround it.

Besides the fact that Palestinians very kindly actually taught early Jewish migrants how to cultivate the land because they hadn't a clue coming mainly from Eastern Europe, based on the British Mandate Survey of Palestine, for the United Nations in 1946-7, the Palestinian population planted 13 times more than newly immigrated Jewish European colonizers, which explains why the majority of them preferred to work in the services and manufacturing industries.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story665.html

[Ulysses G.]

More nonsense as per usual. What do those figures have to do with empty land? Those are not "my figures" anyway. The truth is that no one knows what the breakdown was back then as there was no accurate census. However, whatever the population breakdown really was, they were was on usable land. Much of Palestine back then was barren desert until the Jews made the desert bloom.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (Mark Twain. The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

As for your second foolish comment, there have been Jews in the area continuously for 3,000 years and there is plenty of evidence, which I have posted over and over again. No one - but you - said that they "controlled it" the whole time. They lived there.

6% Jewish popualtion in 1890 is exactly what you said in the link I gave....caught out in a lie eh? My sources said 2% ...I allowed your fabrication some leeway.

Yet another BLATANT LIE posted by dexterm. This is EXACTLY what I said and I did not name any exact figure. I said the same thing that I said today:

In 1890 the Jewish population of Palestine was 2%

Most experts say at least 3 times that - many say more - but there were no reliable studies back then, so it is mostly guesswork. Are you capable of even one honest post? You have been caught posting false information so many times, it is impossible to keep count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine

Most of the Arabs AND Jews were "uninvited" immigrants, but prior to the Zionist movement, much of Israel was DESERT and the labor and skills of the Jewish immigrants is what turned that desert into arable land, which brought prosperity to the region, providing work for Jews and Arabs alike. Let's not forget that Jewish economic success is what attracted most the Arabs who emigrated to the Palestine region illegally and their extended families make up most of the group that calls themselves "Palestinians" today.

As to your link. That is a nutty Palestinian website with mostly bogus information... and you seem to have memorized it all.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

2% *3 = 6% last time I was in Grade One math.

Well, in the words of the dearly departed Mandy Rice Davis "You would say that wouldn't you?"

You know when Israeli apologists are getting desperate:

besmirch the poster

besmirch the links

Edited December 22, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

Besides the fact that Palestinians very kindly actually taught early Jewish migrants how to cultivate the land because they hadn't a clue coming mainly from Eastern Europe

There were ALREADY JEWS there. You get more and more ridiculous.

[Ulysses G.]

Well, in the words of the dearly departed Mandy Rice Davis "You would say that wouldn't you?"

You linked to my post as "proof" that I said "exactly 6%" and I posted what I really said:

"Most experts say at least 3 times that [2%] - many say more - but there were no reliable studies back then, so it is mostly guesswork."

You have been busted posting complete fabrications - yet again - and everyone can see that it is an obvious lie.

As to your link, "Palestine Remembered" is a nutty Palestinian website with mostly bogus information that is easily disproved by reading credible history books and publications.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Besides the fact that Palestinians very kindly actually taught early Jewish migrants how to cultivate the land because they hadn't a clue coming mainly from Eastern Europe

There were ALREADY JEWS there. You get more and more ridiculous.

I never said there weren't Jews in Palestine in 1890...mainly orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem, not farmers, and forming a tiny minority of the population ... according to you 6% of the population. Then in your next breath you do a Rumsfeld, contradict yourself and start talking about unknowables. Whatever, ..it's a far cry from the earlier fabrication you just got caught out on that it was an empty land.

Shouting in capitals doesn't make it true..in fact it highlights your duplicity.

[dexterm]

Well, in the words of the dearly departed Mandy Rice Davis "You would say that wouldn't you?"

As to your link, "Palestine Remembered" is a nutty Palestinian website with mostly bogus information that is easily disproved by reading credible history books and publications.

..except you never seem to get around to disproving information, or quoting your so called credible history books and publications.

[OMGImInPattaya]

No surprise here as it has been the Zionist entity's plan to annex all of Palestine since its founding.

[Ulysses G.]

Well, in the words of the dearly departed Mandy Rice Davis "You would say that wouldn't you?"

As to your link, "Palestine Remembered" is a nutty Palestinian website with mostly bogus information that is easily disproved by reading credible history books and publications.

..except you never seem to get around to disproving information, or quoting your so called credible history books and publications.

I have disproved your nonsense posts repeatedly with links to credible sources, but you just keep repeating the same old fibs. In fact you did it several posts ago when you purposely misquoted me. I posted the real quote from YOUR link to my post and you denied that too. You have a lot in common with one of Jon Lovitz's most famous characters.

[Morch]

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

Israelis do not have to be inhabitants of Israel. Posting this on an expat forum is nothing short of ridiculous.

Them illegal settlers in the West Bank? Here's a secret - they are all Israeli citizens, even while living outside of the 1967 lines.

Your definition of Zionism was dealt with in many a previous post, it has nothing to do with reality. At best, it can be said to be a biased blanket statement which lumps all shades of Zionism and focuses on an extreme. Could you name a non-Arab pro-peace party in Israel which does not identify with Zionism? Zionism as a fanatical belief in God? Seriously? So, according to this there are no secular Zionists? No moderation? Differet

concepts? Just a monolithic ideology? Getting even weirder - "includes some Jews"(?). Eh? Wouldn't your own twisted definition entail that most Zionists are Jews?

As usual, things are more complicated less clear cut and do not easily lend themselves to one liner definitions.

Most Israeli Jews, is asked, would intuitively define themselves as Zionists. If pressed to elaborate on what Zionism means for them, answers would vary. The religious zealotry described in your post certainly applies to some (especially true in relation to them illegal settlers), but far from being a general characteristic.

Please have a clue yourself about doing the math...80% Israelis clearly includes the colonists in the West Bank.They are included in a census of Israel proper not the illegal colonies in the West Bank. Would that they would return to 67 Israel for the next census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

You misinterpret the word "some" Jews in my definition of Zionists. I was using it in its premier definition

"Some" = an unspecified amount; more than one...

Early Zionists and many today claim thet they are returning to and occupying Biblical Israel. Their descendants may not believe in God, but that is the basis of their claim to the land.

What is your definition of Zionist? What possible right do they have to land where other people were already living other than their biblical claim?

If, as you claim "Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel", and the illegal settlers are definitely not inhabiting "(19)67 borders Israel" - what does it make them, then, according to your own definition?

I do not misinterpret anything, other way around. You are trying to somehow insinuate that there is not that much overlap between Jews and Zionists. Not quite the same thing, true, but more often than not, there's a connection.

Early Zionists were actually going against the grain of traditional Jewish thought at the time. The basis for the movement was rather more nationalistic (which would historically fit their time), than religious. The founders of Israel were, on the whole, not a devout lot. If anything, what is happening since 1967 can be seen as Zionism being hijacked by religious right wing oriented groups.

My views on Zionism are irrelevant, as this topic is not about Zionism. You are welcome to re-visit our previous discussions and ignore once again posts detailing my position. Suffice to say that like most related issues, it is not something which can be defined in one liner propositions. You could start by thinking about some of the points brought up and see how these fit in with your view.

If you had bothered to read the link and do the math, you would have seen "[the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics] defines the population of Israel to also include Israeli settlers living in the West Bank."

That figure is 80% of the Israeli population exactly as I said in the first place.

That Zionism was ever a non religious movement is utter BS. Countless times on this forum we have been told that Zionists have a Biblical connection with the land of Palestine.

The fact the you cannot or will not even define Zionism or how Zionists can possibly other than via religion have a claim on the land speaks volumes.

I have read your post, familiar with figures and still can't see how that makes the one liner definition (which you provided) - "Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel" to be correct. The respective percentage is not, and was not, my point. Rather, it is that there are a lot of Israelis currently residing beyond the 1967 lines, and that the above "definition" does not account for them. Open to the possibility that this one liner "definition" was a poorly phrased effort.

Seems like other posts did a good job of expanding on the the Zionism part, albeit failing to pierce certain biases. The fact is that we have engaged in exactly the same discussion more than once in the past, and I do not feel a praticular need to repeat it. Especially as it is not directly connected to the current topic. It may speak volumes, though, that rather than discuss the actual issues presented (the Palestinian proposal, Israel's reaction) you derail the discussion with loosly related arguments.

As far as I am aware, the current proposal does not, on the whole, refer to Zionism. Nor does it raise issues with Israel's right to exist, asks for justification of the Zionist movement or uses language and terminology remotely approaching that commonly found in your posts. It would seem that for many, on both sides, the point is not merely to end the conflict in a reasonable manner, but there also needs to be a "victory". A decisive deceleration of who is wrong and who is right, with complimentary absolution and penance to go.

[Morch]

Netanyahu is about to be voted out due to his unpopular policies and hatemongering tactics. Things will hopefully change, and reasonable minds will prevail in Israel. At least, if there is any hope for lasting peace.

There were two previous topics where this an other upcoming Israeli elections relates issues were discussed:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/781226-israel-pm-benjamin-netanyahu-seeks-early-general-election/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/781465-fired-israeli-minister-slams-netanyahu-for-being-out-of-touch/

The short version of how things currently stand is that while Netanyahu is losing support and approval rating, there still isn't a competing candidate which sweeps the voters of their feet. The main deciding factor is which side of the political map will be able to put together a coalition. As this involves more issues than the Palestinians, it can be said that, overall, the right wing got an advantage there (more potential partners and possible coalition combinations).

This is actually bad news for the chances of peace. A "weak" Netanyahu, will still be able to conjure up a coalition, but at the same time, will be far more susceptible to pressures by right wing coalition partners.

On the other side of the fence, Fatah is set up for its own choosing of the next generation leadership. Tones coming from main candidates are not really mellow. The Palestinian general elections, which were the central purpose of the so-called Unity government, failed to materialize, and sides are not even agreed on core issues which need sorting prior to that.

So, all in all, not a very promising political climate.

[Morch]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

The first part would have done nicely. The second part, well - it might reflect early perceptions, but obviously the land was not empty. The increasing realization that the Arab population was a fixture and had to be accepted can be evident when looking at the gradual changes made by the various plans, proposals and committees up to 1947.

[Morch]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

This time UG has busted his own myth.

According to UG himself the Jewish population of Palestine in 1890 was 6% and 94% Palestinian. So much for your "lots of land with no-one on it" nonsense.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=8747389

Followers of Judaism are just one of many peoples who have lived in Palestine over the millenia.

"The region has been controlled by numerous peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Mongols, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The Jewish lease lapsed 2,000 years ago when they abandoned Palestine.

While numbers declines following historical events (the Jews did not "abandon" as such, they were exiled and their center of worship was destroyed, twice), there were always Jews around. Most of the cultures on that list passed through, held sway for a while and were replaced by others. Apart from Christians (which are both relative newcomers and a more varied group) the land does not feature as a major fixture as far as culture, history and religion goes. To counter foreseeable derailing whines - note that this is not a denial or detraction of the Palestinian's claims and rights.

[Morch]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

And the desert that was mostly Palestine before Israel and Golda Meyer - a nice Jewish grandmother from Chicago btw has now turned into a garden of democracy amongst savages that surround it.

Besides the fact that Palestinians very kindly actually taught early Jewish migrants how to cultivate the land because they hadn't a clue coming mainly from Eastern Europe, based on the British Mandate Survey of Palestine, for the United Nations in 1946-7, the Palestinian population planted 13 times more than newly immigrated Jewish European colonizers, which explains why the majority of them preferred to work in the services and manufacturing industries.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story665.html

Are you quite sure that the figure did not have anything to do with having more agricultural land to plant it?

When comparing yields per area unit cultivated, things seem....a bit different.

Here's a bit of reading related to your claims - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Aaronsohn and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh_Israel (additional links available therein).

[Lissos]

Followers of Judaism are just one of many peoples who have lived in Palestine over the millenia.

Yes, various peoples have come and gone, ruling ideologies have come, gone, sometimes ousted, sometimes returned.

Islamic dominance was just one phase of many in that area. The Jews wanted to come back. The Muslims want to come back.