Local Reaction To The Influx Of Outsiders In The Bangkok Post

[Charma]

It's a shame. Samui locals are probably totally lost and outnumbered at this stage but it may not be too late for KP. Farangs like me are part of their problem and we are very good at organising and forming various groups to project our interests. I noted from an earlier thread that the Isaan workers had also formed some sort of group and had a spokesperson.

I can see how no-one local would want to stick their head above the parapet, particularly if it was to speak out about overdevelopment issues. But if the politicians are not going to do it, who else will stop the Samui factor hitting KP hard over the next few years?

[taxexile]

Oh, and, Taxexile, I certainly hope the same thing doesn't happen to 'your' Hua Hin as well but I was reading that the same 'greedy' developers just dropped an eye or 2 to Hua Hin as well.....

it is very sad to read about things on samui and phangan , even the press is full of it now.

the loss of coconuts due to a reduction in the squirrel population , and the recent flooding should really have alerted the authorities to the fact that the changes have gone too far.

the social/ family changes i think are a countrywide if not a worldwide problem , but will all add to the feelings of bewilderment by older long time residents of those islands .

i would hope that the government crackdowns on developers , land titles , company ownership , and shareholder eligibility will put the brakes on the the property market , but considering the vast profits to be made by thai and foriegner and the ease with which laws can be ignored and favours bought , i doubt if much will change.

as lao po and sbk have said , some forward looking and intelligent government policy is needed.

but this is thailand and money is the god.

as for hua hin , well the builders are certainly busy in these parts , maybe not in the same frenzied league as your islands , but there are falang moo bahns and those aspirational villa developments that i detest so much appearing. the land title scare a few months ago kind of brought things to a halt thankfully , but i suppose things are back to normal again now. the counterbalance here is that there are more developments marketed for thais here. no thai would be seen dead buying in one of the falang ghettoes.

the tourist market here is somewhat different to the islands , but worryingly , hua hin now has its very own blow job bar , opened to much excited frothing at the keyboard on the local expat forum here. the bar scene here is pretty scruffy and low key , but now this place has opened , surely more will follow. whatever ones views are on the bar scene , such places can hardly be seen as an improvement to the town.

i do worry for the future here , locals sell out to foriegners and then their kids cant afford to buy their own place when they get older. the authorities here talk in the local press about their plans for sensible development , but as everywhere in thailand , we dont know exactly how the deals are made.

Until the police learn how to serve the public need , and government officials are appointed and fired on results and the schools do a proper job and turn out free thinking individuals rather than programmed drones , then thailand will continue on its rocky path to third world oblivion.

Poor Thailand...the Thailand we all love so much.

[girlx]

But, I am just trying to point out that the LOCALS (ie people born and bred here with family connections) resent the overwhelming presence of people who show little respect for local traditions and culture.

sorry but i think it't the locals who cause a lot of the problems. they are the ones who proliferated the drug problem, and still do. they are the ones who are "giving" their land away to foreigners. they are the ones who hire the burmese and isaan laborers for barely a liveable wage, leaving thais who come from other places at a loss to find employment. they are the ones catering to foreigners and giving up their culture. and they are the ones who have intimidated most of the island by their mafia presence for years, leaving this a nearly lawless island. no disrespect to you SBK, but i think it's the locals' own fault (not that you are one, as has been pointed out). they need to stop blaming everyone else, accept that there is progress to be made and that they aren't going to stop the influx of outsiders, get their shit together and start managing it properly.

[sbk]

I just have to point out one thing to you girlx, you live in Thong Nai Pan. Thong Nai Pan has always been a world apart from the rest of the island. Your idea of Mafia on the island is farfetched and incorrect. The only 'mafia" I know of exists in TNP.

As for the point that it is locals hiring the Isaan and Burmese, true, to some extent. But this is a very small percentage doing so for you to paint the entire island with the same brush.

So, you can blame locals all you want but you don't really have a complete view of the entire island, living where you do. And you may take this as my superiority complex again, but lets be totally honest here, you live in a small isolated area of the island and have spent very little time elsewhere. I have lived here for a very long time and have been actively involved in the local community for that entire time. I know far more local people who are outside the tourist industry than in it. This gives an entirely different perspective on the island than the one you have.

[taxexile]

its handbags at twenty paces time again on koh phangan !!

[John 1]

Whats this hand bags at twenty paces, more like power puffs.

Seems like a lot of sour grapes, I know more people than you do syndrome, and I've lived here longer than you.

[Mark Wolfe]

SBK wrote:

"I am trying to put forward the local opinion as told to me by locals. Since my husband is local and his entire family is local and I have lived here 17 years I have a fairly good insight into how the locals think and their attitudes towards outsiders."

YOU are an outsider. You always seem to forget this. As you said, if you are not a "local," then you are an interloper. Why can't you get this?

And are you implying that if there were no interlopers, the locals would not develop the island for tourism? Tourism feeds on itself, creating jobs and bringing in more people, which creates more incentives to develop and so on. Or, as you seem proud of telling us, you would like all the locals to really earn their money in the traditional way, with coconuts and fishing, keeping them just above the poverty line?

On a tangent, this issue of who is where is really a mute point. Why waste time discussing how the corral gate was left open when you ought to be thinking of what to do about the horses on the loose?

Development is here to stay. Phangan will one day have an airport. Roads will be constructed in Phangan enabling developers to really get down to business. So what is really needed, and Phangan is a good test case, is a program (local/national) to retard the progress in such a way that time is given, and laws are either formed or enforced, to ensure that expansion around the island is done is a way that satisfies all.

SBK also wrote:

"If you don't like the attitudes of the locals, well that is your problem. Don't live here."

Since you do live "here," this means you agree with the locals, who, in effect, are bigots, according to your repetitious description. They resent the "outsiders."

(Before you jump on that, look at the definition of the word:

bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.)

SBK: "But, I am just trying to point out that the LOCALS (i.e. people born and bred here with family connections) resent the overwhelming presence of people who show little respect for local traditions and culture. And to be honest, the majority of that resentment is against Isaan and Burmese migrant workers who come and take jobs that locals could be doing, and poach off of locals property."

This sounds like the musings of someone unfamiliar with migrant labor. Mexicans are taking jobs that US citizens could be doing? Is it that old cliché?

There is a resort being built near me and there are quite a number of Burmese workers. Why? They are cheaper than the locals (although there is a minimum wage, wink, nod…), and they are very unlikely to run off. It's an economic decision.

And the "poach off of locals' property" line is pure racism. All Issan and Burmese workers poach off of locals' property, eh? Where on earth do you get the information for this slur? An educated woman like yourself should know better than to make sweeping ad hominem arguments based on rumor and hearsay. But then you, like a local, "resent the overwhelming presence of people who show little respect for local traditions and culture," which must also include those clueless foreigners who pay you to stay at your place (this includes the harlots of the West who bare their breasts on the beaches).

And by the way, you are right, this isn't Taiwan; in Taiwan, foreigners are not resented for being there, and this includes the Thai workers.

[Rooo]

Tax we have had our debates in the past ,but tend to agree that the basis of all the problems is lack of planning & government blind eye attitude.By not enforcing adherence to the law & letting different departments running around like loose cannons ,not addressing the level of corruption even though it has been brought to their attention several times.A lot of threads are ongoing at the moment with that issue,we have discussed various aspects of it in the past.Let's just hope that out of all the attention we are getting at the moment,we can see some long lasting positive outcomes.

Below a couple of of interesting articles from last sundays Bangkok Post.They just seem to shed a little more light on the subject of the trees.

One question intrigues me thou.With the old generation being the caretakers of the 2 islands & with the partial sale of some of their land & from reading the articles below into the insight of some of the thinking & the economics behind it.The younger generation being raised in a different climate.with the proceeds of some of the land sales,the growth in tourism,the loss of traditional family values do we really think they will persevere with farming? A small portion will carry on with the family tradition & not let the material world rule them too much.But the majority will just opt for the fast Baht & get out or live it up.

So we have the scenario that the ones able to sell in future will do so, the only way they will maitain some of the trees or plantations is THEY CAN"T SELL.Now if these people are facing finacial hardships, do we think they will persist with a non viable crop?

PARADISE LOST

TREE LOSES ITS APPEAL

Farmer: Government must assist growers

Suchart Ruengthong, 60, has to make a very tough decision _ whether or not to keep his 40-rai coconut plantation, which yields a small income. Although he wants to keep it, he said, he has no idea how long he can do so.

''Coconut farming is what I've known all my life,'' said Mr Suchart.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/130806_News/13A...s05.phpPARADISE LOST

COCONUT ROUGH

Farmers lose traditional source of income as trees fall to development, insect pests

ANJIRA ASSAVANONDA

What comes to your mind when talking about ''Koh Samui''? If you still think of it as a 'coconut island', you could be wrong. That classic image of a tropical beach fringed by coconut palm trees is gone. The coconut trees that once lined the island beaches have almost vanished, felled to pave the way for the development of resorts and hotels.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/130806_News/13Aug2006_news06.php

[Malice in Wonderland]

A small portion will carry on with the family tradition & not let the material world rule them too much.But the majority will just opt for the fast Baht & get out or live it up.

Roo - a very pertinent statement; the Thai youth especially is being seduced by the outside world and surely doesn't give a rat's a*** about coconuts or fishing.They're all too busy chatting on their mobile phones and watching Big Brother whilst munching (and getting fat) on soda's and hot-dogs from the 7/11...They've seen what we've got and they want it - watch any Thai soap opera or pick up any thai teen mag for further proof....It's unstoppable.

[womble]

"Suchart Ruengthong, 60, has to make a very tough decision _ whether or not to keep his 40-rai coconut plantation, which yields a small income. Although he wants to keep it, he said, he has no idea how long he can do so."

This Bangkok post article is a load of tripe. We're supposed to feel sorry for this farmer?

The low price of coconuts has nothing to do with tourism, and this farmer is very lucky to have the option of being able to sell his land, if he lived on one of the islands where tourism isn't an industry his land would be worthless and he still would be faced with the problem of not enough $ from his coconuts.

Shouldn't the farmer be grateful for having the option to sell????

Or am I missing something here?

With the money he gets from the sale of his land he could eigher set himself up in business in samui if he really wants to stay here, or he could move elsewhere, buy a much larger plot and plant a cash crop that has a better market price. The land in samui is crap anyway, that why they only grow coconuts, down south they grow a few other things as the soil is a bit better down there, but for the $ he gets for his land he could buy much more fertile land elsewhere.

If he doesn't have the knowledge or the drive to use the $ wisely then thats his fault, he's still extremely lucky to have the chance to sell and use the capitol for investment that could leave his family in a much betterr position than picking coconuts.

One other thing on the topic of the 'Destruction' of Samui, Originally nearly all the land on samui was owned by samui people, they then chose many years ago to sell and lease some of this land to other Thais and some foriegners who used the land to build bungalows etc. The first bungalows were owned by Samui people, then along came investors from Surrathani, Chumpon, NakhonsiThammarat, Bangkok etc. They leased or bought the land from Samui people.

This means it was ultimately samui people who took the decision to allow outsiders in, they didn't have to sell or lease their land to people from other areas, they took the choise. As more and more people saw the money that could be made they too took the decision to use their land to make income from ways other than farming.

If the samui folk had taken the decision to not to lease, and not to sell, the island would still be much the same as it was many years ago. For me probobally the worst destruction evident on the island is the mountains that have been cut away for sand. Who owns these mountains? Could it possibly be locals? Now they're worried about houses being built on hills when whole hills have been sold and cut away by locals while the authorities just stood by and watched.

I've noticed looking around the island that the areas on the hills where individuals have bought single plots and built their own house actually look very nice on the whole, it's these big developements that look so awful.

[LaoPo]

I think that Samui is no different than any other island in the world, becoming a tourist destination in such a short period of time.

All landowners, mostly very poor, started to get greedy when their neighbour sold land for the first time and bought a car and/or built a nicer, bigger home and the wife started buying nice dresses, watches and sending the kids to schools off-island to have better education.

Than the next one followed....and-so-on.

l' Histoire se repete you know.

It is however the scale and the lack of (local) government control AS WELL AS the enormous -kind of- 'normal' corruption that all these building 'permitted', destroying a once beautiful island.

LaoPo

[womble]

yup I agree 100%, it was local wants and needs for material things that lead to samui people taking the decision to lease or sell their land. That combined with corruption of local authorities using this cash that has lead to rules being bent and broken. It is ultimatley the greed of locals themselves that has lead to this and anyone who sees otherwise is looking in the wrong place. Yes outsiders are part of the equation as demand wouldn't be there without them, but it was ultimatley the locals who took the decsion to let them in, and their collution with authorities and corrupt practises that have lead to the overdevelopement.

People from outside the island have copied their corrupt ways, some foriegners too are also involved, but it remains a fact that it is impossible for a foriegner in Thailand to make corrupt land deals without eigher,

A). Collusion with Thais

B.) Gross negligence of a Thai

[girlx]

Seems like a lot of sour grapes, I know more people than you do syndrome, and I've lived here longer than you.

exactly, and it's b.s.! my experience with koh phangan is not limited to thong nai pan, SBK. i lived in ban kai before this. i have many friends in ban tai, where i am sorry but if you think there is no mafia you must be utterly blind. there have been 2 shootings in the past month alone that i know of there. had nothing to do with thong nai pan. the biggest drug loads come from a guy in ban tai, who is a local... many of the locals in thong nai pan come from the huge family that covers most of ban tai. i have good friends in had yao, thongsala, had rin as well. all locals. i live in thong nai pan but that doesn't mean i spend all my time here. i obviously don't know the island as well as you do since you have been here for 17 years, but i am sure there are sides of it i see that you don't, and i think i am just as qualified to comment on it as you, as there is nowhere here i have not been and don't have at least one local friend in.

[taxexile]

womble

"Suchart Ruengthong, 60, has to make a very tough decision _ whether or not to keep his 40-rai coconut plantation, which yields a small income. Although he wants to keep it, he said, he has no idea how long he can do so."

This Bangkok post article is a load of tripe. We're supposed to feel sorry for this farmer?

The low price of coconuts has nothing to do with tourism, and this farmer is very lucky to have the option of being able to sell his land, if he lived on one of the islands where tourism isn't an industry his land would be worthless and he still would be faced with the problem of not enough $ from his coconuts.

Shouldn't the farmer be grateful for having the option to sell????

Or am I missing something here?

With the money he gets from the sale of his land he could eigher set himself up in business in samui if he really wants to stay here, or he could move elsewhere, buy a much larger plot and plant a cash crop that has a better market price. The land in samui is crap anyway, that why they only grow coconuts, down south they grow a few other things as the soil is a bit better down there, but for the $ he gets for his land he could buy much more fertile land elsewhere.

Or am I missing something here?

youre missing plenty.

you expect this 60 year old , who probably has lived and worked on samui all his life , with little experience of "the ways of the mainland" to sell up and move to another part of the country and just buy some more land and carry on as if nothing had changed.

[womble]

No I havn't missed it, I said, "If he doesn't have the knowledge or the drive".

That basically takes into account the fact he is unable to use his own intelligence to use the 40+ million baht from the sale of his 40 rai.

I'm sorry but he has at least 1 million US $, and that is probobally very much on the low side, most land is valued above 1 million a rai.

Age has nothing to do with it, it doesn't matter that he's 60, or that he may know nothing else other than coconut farming, if he is not able to learn or try his hand at other things then he is the one holding himself back.

Don't try and blame his shortcomings on others.

The fact remains he has a huge sum of money to play with, what he does with it is his choise. Don't expect me to feel sorry for him if he squanders it.

Also I clearly stated he doesn't have to leave for the mainland, he can stay and make a business here with his $1,000,000+.

Failing that if he really can't trust himself with the $, why not stick it in bonds and live off 5+ % income for the rest of his life.

As much as his knowledge of coconut farming in the past paid for his living, commodity prices now dictate that if he can't adapt and change his business will fail, as with many things in life it's always great to blame others, but in the end we often only have ourselves to blame if we fail.

I think there's many many people in the world who would love to have a failing business that could be turned into cold hard cash very quickly.

Edited August 20, 2006 by womble

[Charma]

No I havn't missed it, I said, "If he doesn't have the knowledge or the drive".

That basically takes into account the fact he is unable to use his own intelligence to use the 40+ million baht from the sale of his 40 rai.

I'm sorry but he has at least 1 million US $, and that is probobally very much on the low side, most land is valued above 1 million a rai.

Age has nothing to do with it, it doesn't matter that he's 60, or that he may know nothing else other than coconut farming, if he is not able to learn or try his hand at other things then he is the one holding himself back.

Don't try and blame his shortcomings on others.

The fact remains he has a huge sum of money to play with, what he does with it is his choise. Don't expect me to feel sorry for him if he squanders it.

Also I clearly stated he doesn't have to leave for the mainland, he can stay and make a business here with his $1,000,000+.

Failing that if he really can't trust himself with the $, why not stick it in bonds and live off 5+ % income for the rest of his life.

As much as his knowledge of coconut farming in the past paid for his living, commodity prices now dictate that if he can't adapt and change his business will fail, as with many things in life it's always great to blame others, but in the end we often only have ourselves to blame if we fail.

I think there's many many people in the world who would love to have a failing business that could be turned into cold hard cash very quickly.

You have got to be kidding, right? Do you not think that this is a tad arrogant? You think this 60 year coconut farmer should go off and play the money markets! Unbelieveable.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Charma

[sbk]

Mark Wolfe, just out of curiousity, where do you live? Just curious if you are just a pisstaker or another newbie taking aim at people he doesn't know or understand.

As for the idea I don't understand I am not a local, where in heavens name did you ever get that idea? Certainly nothing I ever actually wrote. Believe I wrote I am accepted here because my husband is local but I am still my husbands wife. Frankly, your putting words in my mouth to suit your needs is getting extremely tiresome. May I suggest you stop telling me what I think?

And if people here are bigots I just have to ask, who the heck isn't? You seem to be quite bigoted towards local islanders. They dont resent foreigners and I am not sure why you keep leading this back to an anti-farang thing. As for the idea that Isaan and Burmese are taking jobs that locals wouldn't-- aboslute balderdash. They work for about half of what the locals do so it is cheaper to hire them. Plus, it doesn't matter if you treat them like <deleted> because they dont' have anyone to turn to for help. Obviously, it is some locals hiring them but certainly not the entire island is responsible for the actions of some. And the poaching thing is clear, obviously you don't live anywhere near where I do, since I see them hunting around our place on a regular basis.

As for the mafia idea, girlx, do you have any idea what Mafia really means? A fully organized criminal system? On this island? Really, you must really get around and know lots of people to see something my husband has never even heard of.

Shootings occur in southern Thailand all the time, does not make them Mafia, drug dealers too. Doesnt' make it some kind of island wide organized crime family.

I know about the shootings, knew one of the dead men personally. It was not organized crime related-- in fact, rumor has it it wasn't even island related. He married a local girl only recently and most people suspect that he brought his troubles with him. Please don't try to lecture me on what goes on on this island.

Sure, people have the option not to sell. But, let me tell you about my neighbor. 20 years ago her older sister built little bungalows. They did well with the backpackers but frankly, the rooms dont last too long. Now they are falling apart sheds and since they were always cheap, they never did make much off of them. Got by, did pretty well, but certainly didn't save enough to build a new place. Their bad management, sure but you have to have compassion at some level, don't you? Now, when they need to build a new place they can't get a loan from the bank. They own the land outright, so why not? Who knows why, they certainly don't. But, the bungalows are wrecks and won't be holding people much longer. What suggestion do you have for them?

Seems to me there are far too many people with very little compassion and no empathy on this forum. The complete inability to put yourself in anothers shoes and have some sympathy for their plight says alot to me about what is important to some people. "Too bad for the old man, get out and quit moaning." BUT let me guess, you are the first ones moaning because some farang got duped in a land scheme or complain because you can't own land outright.

[womble]

and why not?

I know other local people who do just that. Don't look down on the locals and think it's beyond them. It's totally possible that he could take the decision himself or that a savy family member could could offer some advice with what to do with the cash.

Anyway it was only an example, there's 101 things to do with 1,000,000 US, surely he can think of something, he could ofcourse keep half of his land, sell half and set up a stud farm for fighting buffalo, i believe samui people know a thing or two about that.

My point is not that he could play money markets, but that he should surely be able to find something to do with so much cash. It's certainly not such a small amount that he won't be able to afford to live in samui, far from it, he will be one of it's weathiest inhabitants.

My argument is not with the farmer anyway, it's with the bangkok post article using him as an example.

As I said in an earlier post the article is a load of tripe!

[sbk]

Whats this hand bags at twenty paces, more like power puffs.

Seems like a lot of sour grapes, I know more people than you do syndrome, and I've lived here longer than you.

Sour grapes about what? What a pointless post, I have lived here longer than girlx and do know more people than she does. How could I possibly not? I just don't appreciate being lectured like some new kid who has only been here few years, like I have some kind of naive rosy view of the island.

womble, as for the old man, well, I think it is really hard for people to understand the scope of the change that has hit these islands in the past twenty years. When I came to Koh P there was no hospital, no bank, no phones and no paved roads. The pier for the island had just finished the month before I came and the island was still on 12 hour day electricity, for those parts that had it. And the electricity was fairly new.

My husband saw his first vehicle when he was 12 years old, was about the same age when he watched tv for the first time at the neighbors house because they had a generator to run it. His dad's house was the big meeting point when the weather became bad because he had a radio and they could listen to the weather forecast on it. My husband's grandfather took a sailing ship to Bangkok, it took him 6 months to get there and he had to wait for the winds to change before he could come home.

So, imagine going from a rural agrarian society to urban fast paced tourist resort within 20 years. As an already full grown adult. My father-in-law is 70 and does quite well, but most people his age have a very hard time coping with the massive changes they have seen. Not many people have the ability to adjust to such massive changes as swiftly as you suggest, womble.

[girlx]

Shootings occur in southern Thailand all the time, does not make them Mafia, drug dealers too. Doesnt' make it some kind of island wide organized crime family.

on koh phangan? you have got to be kidding me. i give up.

[Charma]

and why not?

.......a savy family member could could offer some advice with what to do with the cash.

I am sure that a lot of people would know exactly what the guy should do with his cash!

[womble]

I do understand that there are those who are unable to adapt well, but that goes for any other socio economic changes that take place elsewhere in the world.

There are winners and losers.

I wouldn't call the old man a loser, but if he has a problem with his land being so valuable maybe he should take it up with those who first sold or leased their land on the island ultimatley leading to the increased demand now.

Also if there are any issues regarding the local enviroment that arn't to his liking maybe he should consult with local authorites and question their inability to enforce rules and regulations, he might also wish to speak once again with the locals who chose cash over the local enviroment.

The reason nothing is done and it continues to get worse is because most locals are somehow involved and have benefitted with this growth, so you won't find many who are willing to stand up, speak and put a stop to it.

Which once again leads me back to saying that those responsible are the ones who first sold the land and also the authorities who allowed the problems to manifest.

Edited August 20, 2006 by womble

[sbk]

Shootings occur in southern Thailand all the time, does not make them Mafia, drug dealers too. Doesnt' make it some kind of island wide organized crime family.

on koh phangan? you have got to be kidding me. i give up.

whatever

My husband has lived his entire life here and knows more people than you could ever possibly know. If he says there is no such thing then I think I believe him more than you.

Let me make something really clear to you, yes, lots of people are related, yes everybody does know everybody else but that doesn't make it organized crime. Using connections to do business does not make it organized crime.

Just curious, hows your southern Thai? Do you speak it well enough to understand whats being said around you or is your information based on what you are told by some people?

[John 1]

That would be a good story to tell the kids 6 months on a sailing ship to get to Bangkok, did he go via Cape Horn.

[sbk]

I do understand that there are those who are unable to adapt well, but that goes for any other socio economic changes that take place elsewhere in the world.

There are winners and losers.

I wouldn't call the old man a loser, but if he has a problem with his land being so valuable maybe he should take it up with those who first sold or leased their land on the island ultimatley leading to the increased demand now.

Also if there are any issues regarding the local enviroment that arn't to his liking maybe he should consult with local authorites and question their inability to enforce rules and regulations, he might also wish to speak once again with the locals who chose cash over the local enviroment.

The reason nothing is done and it continues to get worse is because most locals are somehow involved and have benefitted with this growth, so you won't find many who are willing to stand up, speak and and put a stop to it.

Which once again leads me back to saying that those responsible are the ones who first sold the land and also the authorities who allowed the problems to magnifest.

Just curious, womble, where you got the idea that Thai people are generally a proactive lot that would buck authority? Where did you get the idea that complaining to authority in this country would actually yield results?

Maybe where you live is different, maybe island people are too complacent. I dont know but I do have to disagree with your idea that most of the islanders have benefitted. Some have, but not most.

[sbk]

That would be a good story to tell the kids 6 months on a sailing ship to get to Bangkok, did he go via Cape Horn.

do you even know what you are talking about?

Actually, it is quite interesting. This would have been about 1918 and he worked his way on a ship that sailed along the coast and stopped at every port along the way. It would stop somewhere, barter goods and then, in a few days, or when the weather was good, move along to the next little port somewhere.

He was an interesting old man, he could remember when the British bombed the Japanese off of Koh Samui, talked about hiding in some caves in the inland. He died about 12 years ago at the ripe old age of 95. Cantankerous to the end.

[womble]

Hmm, well most islanders I know have gained, infact I don't know any who havn't financially and thats the truth.

But if we look at it from the angle that most did not benefit (as may well be the case, I really don't know), then I guess we are looking at a classic syndrome in Thailand that those with power, ie. the landowners have benefited at everyone elses loss.

Also I know it's not the Thai way to complain, thats often the reason so many things go unpunished or continue to be done wrongly, but maybe that's a fault of the system. There is no point having rules if they arn't enforced, and if the people feel they are unable to stand up to the powerful minority, who's fault is that?

Well I really don't think it's the fault of foriegners.

Places like Bermuda have done very well with the help of foriegn investment, the locals have also done well, and the Authorities have enforced rules that have benefited the communtiy as a whole.

I'd also like to say that I really don't think their is any mafia as mafia is by definition on the islands.

Yes there are many people that Thais call mafia, but as the word is understood by it's definition in english language, it involves organised crime.

disorganised crime maybe

[Rooo]

Womble, Bermuda? WoW.Organised crime there makes planes disappear

[sbk]

I don't think its the fault of the foreigners either, not sure where everybody got the idea that I did. Don't think the locals blame foreigners either. Mostly, I think they blame poor corrupt government and greedy bangkok developers.

And, yes I agree, they should complain, but that is not the way the culture works as far as I have seen. I personally think they take the whole Mai pen rai thing way too far, but that is for a different thread entirely, I think

[Charma]

It seems as though you are resigned to the inevitable SBK. Is it really just a matter of time before KP is covered in concrete?