CNX Work Permit Office says, "Too hard, go to BKK!"

[Lung Fish]

... Sounds to me like OP is acting in exactly the manner of a 'digital nomad' (assuming that by 'interviewing', 'in home' you mean that you are interviewing candidates over the internet), and as such are not dealing with Thai entities nor being renumerated from or in Thailand.

In the event OP finds themselves sourcing a candidate for a Thai client, or indeed interviewing Thai candidates that feels very much in the danger zone to me (the former more than the latter, unless they are sourcing contractors and handling payments and invoicing in which case it's equally dangerous).

Short answer is, dealing exclusively online with non Thai entities and being renumerated outside of Thailand whilst being in Thailand does not appear to be considered to be in breach of immigration legislation. In terms of Labour legislation, that has never been applied to someone operating in this manner. OP is very unlikely to get any form of official confirmation either way, even if they actively pursue it - it appears to be a grey area at the present time, and the situation could change quickly. Keeping quiet and 100% avoiding dealing with any Thai entities is probably advisable.I actually don't think of myself as a digital nomad in the classical sense. I want to source Thai people for jobs in Oz. I'd need to interview them 'in the flesh' preferably in my house or theirs. I don't need an office, a partner, or a company. Just need my wife to spend my millions if I ever make them :-) I don't need to have a full time presence in CNX but would like to keep a fulltime rented place I can stay in while here and let friends use when I'm not. My renumeration will come from Oz. I will continue to pay tax to Oz. I think I'm in the zone ... the GREY zone!

[rwdrwdrwd]

I actually don't think of myself as a digital nomad in the classical sense. I want to source Thai people for jobs in Oz. I'd need to interview them 'in the flesh' preferably in my house or theirs. I don't need an office, a partner, or a company. Just need my wife to spend my millions if I ever make them :-) I don't need to have a full time presence in CNX but would like to keep a fulltime rented place I can stay in while here and let friends use when I'm not. My renumeration will come from Oz. I will continue to pay tax to Oz. I think I'm in the zone ... the GREY zone!

Yep you're right - you aren't operating in that manner at all - I made a wrong assumption.

[Soutpeel]

I actually don't think of myself as a digital nomad in the classical sense. I want to source Thai people for jobs in Oz. I'd need to interview them 'in the flesh' preferably in my house or theirs. I don't need an office, a partner, or a company. Just need my wife to spend my millions if I ever make them :-) I don't need to have a full time presence in CNX but would like to keep a fulltime rented place I can stay in while here and let friends use when I'm not. My renumeration will come from Oz. I will continue to pay tax to Oz. I think I'm in the zone ... the GREY zone!

Yep you're right - you aren't operating in that manner at all - I made a wrong assumption.

Fact is he is running an employment agency and definitely needs a WP while in Thailand, and if he doesn't have runs the risk of a disgruntled prospective employee reporting him if they don't get given a job for example, and it would be exceptionally silly to interview people in your own home for the same reason

But hey his choice

[Lung Fish]

I'm going to stop subscibing to this thread now but here's what I'm going to do. Thedemon's post above had an interesting piece about the Oz/Thai free trade agreement.

"...Australians...being able to utilise...the One Stop Service Centre without meeting the normal requirements... More info here: https://www.dfat.gov...y-outcomes.html (under the heading "Temporary Entry of Business People")

So, when I'm due to pass through BKK to Oz in a month I'll drop in to the One Stop Shop and test it out. I'm not going to do a special trip as the consensus is I'll waste my money.

If anything different happens like ... I get a work permit! ... I'll resubscribe to this thread or a new one and post the results. If you don't hear from me you'll know that Ubonjoe's very first advice is still the status quo. If I was a betting man I'd lay 6 to 4 he's right on the money.

Thank you to all the informative public and private posters. You've been a great help.

[LivinLOS]

In terms of Labour legislation, that has never been applied to someone operating in this manner. OP is very unlikely to get any form of official confirmation either way,

They have confirmed it, multiple times.. Including the one I linked earlier.. That it is not legal..

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.”

Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

“Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.”

Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration -

Thats is very very clear.. Its not grey, its not ambiguous, its not a lack of confirmation either way.

If you mean its very hard to get caught illegally working this way, then fine.. Lots of laws are routinely broken here.. But lets not pretend that its not against the law to do this.

[paz]

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration -

Quote or should I say, routine statement, from 2010.

Since then, during these 4 years, who has been arrested and took legal action against ?

Currently Phuket immigration seems to be busy with other stuff.

[JimSiam]

Quote or should I say, routine statement, from 2010.

Since then, during these 4 years, who has been arrested and took legal action against ?

Currently Phuket immigration seems to be busy with other stuff.

I know of 2 people that got denied entry for what they had posted on their facebook walls, not arrested, but just sayin, not a good place to post your activities if your here doing something other than you should be.

[Soutpeel]

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration -

Quote or should I say, routine statement, from 2010.

Since then, during these 4 years, who has been arrested and took legal action against ?

Currently Phuket immigration seems to be busy with other stuff.

So your inferring because no one has been arrested in the years since these statements where made, it must be legal now ?

Your using digicon logic

[paz]

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration -

Quote or should I say, routine statement, from 2010.

Since then, during these 4 years, who has been arrested and took legal action against ?

Currently Phuket immigration seems to be busy with other stuff.

So your inferring because no one has been arrested in the years since these statements where made, it must be legal now ?

Your using digicon logic

I'm inferring that the person quoted was talking out of is a**, no more no less.

[dbrenn]

Better still, get the aussies to sign that you have left oz, get paid offshore and don't pay any tax at all

it sounds like he is still earning money in Oz which is taxable in Oz regardless of where he lives.

Declaring himself non resident in Oz would be a bad thing to do as he would lose his personal allowance and have to pay tax from his first dollar of income onwards.

[rwdrwdrwd]

In terms of Labour legislation, that has never been applied to someone operating in this manner. OP is very unlikely to get any form of official confirmation either way,

They have confirmed it, multiple times.. Including the one I linked earlier.. That it is not legal..

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.”

Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

“Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.”

Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration -

Thats is very very clear.. Its not grey, its not ambiguous, its not a lack of confirmation either way.

If you mean its very hard to get caught illegally working this way, then fine.. Lots of laws are routinely broken here.. But lets not pretend that its not against the law to do this.

The first quote from 4 years ago is also from an Immigration official, as per the Chiang Mai one. The Chiang Mai one is later though, so if we take both of them as within the remit of Immigration, and for any relevant statement to be applicable nationwide, this 4 year old one has been superceded with a contrarian one.

In terms of the second one from 4 years ago (the only statement on this matter, ever, from a Labour department - not 'multiple' as you claim), this is from a Labour official, however the wording of the law regarding foreigners working encompasses any exertion of energy or use of knowledge paid or unpaid, and is therefore entirely open to interpretation, it can when taken literally include walking down the street, brushing your teeth, hailing a taxi or sending an email.

Any Labour Dept in any region can interpret that law as they see fit, and form a prosecution case on the basis of that interpretation, it may be that Phuket continues to interpret in this manner they stated 4 years ago however that interpretation would be only theirs - it does not cover every Labour department across the nation, and as indicated in the comment itself, it would be for a court to rule on legality, with their interpretation of the written law, not the Labour department itself. Of course the odds are on the courts siding with the Labour dept, but it's not a guaranteed outcome.

Given that the law is so badly written that it may as well state "you are working if we say so, up to us", that people have been very overtly working remotely, that there are co-working spaces across the country, and that there have been no prosecutions of remote workers ever across the entire country, in practice, it is a grey area, and will remain that way until someone is actually prosecuted and there is a legal precedent by virtue of a judgement in court.

Edited December 27, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[LivinLOS]

Both responses clearly state working online in any capacity you need a work permit..

They have even said uploading a youtube video which has advert system turned on needs a work permit.. Something I asked as bloggers kept saying what they did wasnt needing one..

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1532

Chiang mai immigration said that as far as they were concerned someone doing online activity on a tourist visa (hence here short term) wasnt something they were bothered about.. From an immigration point of view.. Thats not from a labor law point of view. Every other response, from the labor dept who control labor law, has been unequivocal in the need for a work permit. You can also note CNX didnt say you dont need a work permit, only that they as immigration were not bothered about it. As the link I just put up the labor dept see even the most basic forms of monetizing a site as work. No grey in that response for any form of online work.

[Konini]

Better still, get the aussies to sign that you have left oz, get paid offshore and don't pay any tax at all

it sounds like he is still earning money in Oz which is taxable in Oz regardless of where he lives.

Declaring himself non resident in Oz would be a bad thing to do as he would lose his personal allowance and have to pay tax from his first dollar of income onwards.

As well as losing franking credits on any dividends he receives.