At the end of the day, How do we know that any of it is true (Awakening - Nibbana)?

[rockyysdt]

I have asked many Rinpoches, monks, gurus, etc., these questions and none of them can ever give me an answer, so who is knowledgeable and who is enlightened? Why should I ever follow or listen to those that do not know or at least cannot explain anything that would make sense to an ignoramus? Oh, yes, they use wonderful language for explaining a question as if they are the higher beings that you are not, and yet I notice that their characters have not changed, they are as selfish and materialistic as any of us!

I too have pondered this very point.

Surely liberation from defilements (dasa kilesa-vatthūni) would lead to a radical change in behavior & appearance.

1. greed (lobha)
2. hate (dosa)
3. delusion (moha)
4. conceit (māna)
5. wrong views (micchāditthi)
6. doubt (vicikicchā)
7. torpor (thīnaṃ)
8. restlessness (uddhaccaṃ)
9. shamelessness (ahirikaṃ)
10. recklessness (anottappaṃ)

[trd]

Nothing anyone can tell you can liberate you. No concept or any particular way of thinking or belief can liberate you. The most that another can do for you is to create pointers which allow you to adopt a practice which leads to surrender of, and disidentification from, all that you believe to be you, the false self, and merge with and rest in the natural state. This is the end of dukkha. It is not an extraordinary state but a completely ordinary state.

[DaffyDuck]

What happened millions of years ago or five minutes ago is not in your immediate experience. Only the consciousness of the present moment is. It is the only thing you can experience. This thread is about awakening, not belief.

Well, then maybe you should open your eyes

What happened in the past can be ascertained by forensic examination of traces available in the present. What happened in the past can also be recorded and reviewed. It appears your understanding and awareness of scientific examination is severely lacking.

Objective reality is verifiable.

[trd]

What happened millions of years ago or five minutes ago is not in your immediate experience. Only the consciousness of the present moment is. It is the only thing you can experience. This thread is about awakening, not belief.

Well, then maybe you should open your eyes

What happened in the past can be ascertained by forensic examination of traces available in the present. What happened in the past can also be recorded and reviewed. It appears your understanding and awareness of scientific examination is severely lacking.

Objective reality is verifiable.

You need to read what I have written more carefully and then perhaps your eyes will open. I am talking about your experience which can only be of this present moment whether you are eating your lunch or reading a verifiable paper on some past recorded event. I remind you once again that this thread is about awakening. You can only be awake to the present regardless of whether the dinosaurs once walked the earth. BTW I have a science degree which has equipped me very well to examine to evidence. What is the evidence you exist? It is consciousness is it not?

[VincentRJ]

Objective verification and, to a similar degree, shared experiences are verification of an objective experience.

It's called 'science' - which I understand is a foreign concept to the believers in 'woo'.

There is no science without the consciousness of the perceiver of it. The external world is a manifestation of mind and senses. Can you prove there is material existence outside your mind? So if you are interested in truth, find out what the experiencer is. This has nothing to do with belief.

Yes, there's is a tendency to think that the laws of Physics, for example, are woven into the fabric of reality and that we have discovered such laws as an explorer might discover a new continent. However, it seems more correct and reasonable to me, to view such 'so-called' laws as no more than useful products of the human imagination.

To the extent that such laws are consistent and in accord with our observations, and help us to exert control over our environment, we consider them to be true. But the history of science teaches us that all these so-called laws are subject to constant change and/or refinement.

I find it quite amazing that despite the huge and accelerating progression of scientific development during the past century or two, we have now got ourselves into the predicament of either not knowing what 95% of the total matter and energy in our universe consists of, or having to accept that our theories of gravity are wrong.

That's a huge discrepancy if all the visible, detectable and calculable matter and energy in the universe is only 5% of what our theories imply should exist. Are our theories wrong, or will we eventually detect the existence of this hypothesised Dark Matter and Dark Energy? Who knows!

[RandomSand]

What happened millions of years ago or five minutes ago is not in your immediate experience. Only the consciousness of the present moment is. It is the only thing you can experience. This thread is about awakening, not belief.

Well, then maybe you should open your eyes

What happened in the past can be ascertained by forensic examination of traces available in the present. What happened in the past can also be recorded and reviewed. It appears your understanding and awareness of scientific examination is severely lacking.

Objective reality is verifiable.

You need to read what I have written more carefully and then perhaps your eyes will open. I am talking about your experience which can only be of this present moment whether you are eating your lunch or reading a verifiable paper on some past recorded event. I remind you once again that this thread is about awakening. You can only be awake to the present regardless of whether the dinosaurs once walked the earth. BTW I have a science degree which has equipped me very well to examine to evidence. What is the evidence you exist? It is consciousness is it not?

There's lack of evidence supporting the existence of consciousness.Therefore "consciousness" cannot be evidence for existence.

It seems that you have free will and can determine your own actions. You can act as part of the environment and the environment will respond... but are these two things (you and the universe) actually two or just one?

It's far more reasonable, to me, to say that "existence is" and "consciousness is not".

You are awareness, a witness to events; thus YOU ARE THE EGO... a part of nature which is observing and interacting with another part (of itself). Why make it any more complicated ?-- maybe because death is scary and you desire the afterlife?!!

Seems to me that "consciousness" is another way of talking about spirit or soul. Of course these things are very unfashionable yet most cultures throughout time have had belief in such a dualism. We can't say "yes but they are backwards and we now know better"... we can't that because consciousness is no more scientific than "soul".

Edited January 1, 2015 by RandomSand

[VincentRJ]

What happened millions of years ago or five minutes ago is not in your immediate experience. Only the consciousness of the present moment is. It is the only thing you can experience. This thread is about awakening, not belief.

Well, then maybe you should open your eyes

What happened in the past can be ascertained by forensic examination of traces available in the present. What happened in the past can also be recorded and reviewed. It appears your understanding and awareness of scientific examination is severely lacking.

Objective reality is verifiable.

You need to read what I have written more carefully and then perhaps your eyes will open. I am talking about your experience which can only be of this present moment whether you are eating your lunch or reading a verifiable paper on some past recorded event. I remind you once again that this thread is about awakening. You can only be awake to the present regardless of whether the dinosaurs once walked the earth. BTW I have a science degree which has equipped me very well to examine to evidence. What is the evidence you exist? It is consciousness is it not?

There's lack of evidence supporting the existence of consciousness.

I think it would be more correct to say there is a lack of a scientifically sound and consistent explanation for the nature and processes of consciousness, just as there is for the concept of a mind, as opposed to a brain.

There are lots of phenomena which science can't adequately explain, yet we have no doubt that such phenomena exist. For example, the placebo effect in medicine is a well-recognised phenomenon, yet science can't adequately explain the mechanism of the process, even though the effect is usually a part of any sound methodology in the testing of new drugs.

[IMA_FARANG]

At a practical level, it is like the old woman who had been married to her husband for many years.

One day she asked him, "Darling, you say you love me often, but how can I be sure you still do love me after all these years?"

His answer started her thinking.

"You can't, darling", he answered, "except that after all these years, I'm still here with you."

And that's the answer.

[trd]

What happened millions of years ago or five minutes ago is not in your immediate experience. Only the consciousness of the present moment is. It is the only thing you can experience. This thread is about awakening, not belief.

Well, then maybe you should open your eyes

What happened in the past can be ascertained by forensic examination of traces available in the present. What happened in the past can also be recorded and reviewed. It appears your understanding and awareness of scientific examination is severely lacking.

Objective reality is verifiable.

You need to read what I have written more carefully and then perhaps your eyes will open. I am talking about your experience which can only be of this present moment whether you are eating your lunch or reading a verifiable paper on some past recorded event. I remind you once again that this thread is about awakening. You can only be awake to the present regardless of whether the dinosaurs once walked the earth. BTW I have a science degree which has equipped me very well to examine to evidence. What is the evidence you exist? It is consciousness is it not?

There's lack of evidence supporting the existence of consciousness.Therefore "consciousness" cannot be evidence for existence.

It seems that you have free will and can determine your own actions. You can act as part of the environment and the environment will respond... but are these two things (you and the universe) actually two or just one?

It's far more reasonable, to me, to say that "existence is" and "consciousness is not".

You are awareness, a witness to events; thus YOU ARE THE EGO... a part of nature which is observing and interacting with another part (of itself). Why make it any more complicated ?-- maybe because death is scary and you desire the afterlife?!!

Seems to me that "consciousness" is another way of talking about spirit or soul. Of course these things are very unfashionable yet most cultures throughout time have had belief in such a dualism. We can't say "yes but they are backwards and we now know better"... we can't that because consciousness is no more scientific than "soul".

I think we have a problem with terminology. I am often using the words consciousness and awareness interchangeably. You are certainly aware. This cannot be denied otherwise who is it that is typing these words. Consciousness is citta. To be more accurate, I would say that consciousness is an attribute of ego. It is impermanent. It is certainly not spirit or soul. It is most often used in the context of being conscious of something. Awareness is undifferentiated but gives rise to individual consciousness. The word existence is good also. In Vedanta reality is described as sat (existence) chit (consciousness) ananda (bliss).

You describe awareness as a witness to events, but even that has to be let go of. This often takes the form of a practice (mindfulness) where thoughts and actions are witnessed as a way of turning the attention back to simple awareness.

[rockyysdt]

I think we have a problem with terminology. I am often using the words consciousness and awareness interchangeably. You are certainly aware. This cannot be denied otherwise who is it that is typing these words. Consciousness is citta. To be more accurate, I would say that consciousness is an attribute of ego. It is impermanent. It is certainly not spirit or soul. It is most often used in the context of being conscious of something. Awareness is undifferentiated but gives rise to individual consciousness. The word existence is good also. In Vedanta reality is described as sat (existence) chit (consciousness) ananda (bliss).

You describe awareness as a witness to events, but even that has to be let go of. This often takes the form of a practice (mindfulness) where thoughts and actions are witnessed as a way of turning the attention back to simple awareness.

Ven: Maha Boowa:

Avijjã’s (Delusion/Ignorance) extinction is unlike that of all other things that we have investigated up to this point.

Uniquely, the radiance of avijjã is extinguished in an instant, like a flash of lightening.

It is a moment of being that happens spontaneously: it just flips over and vanishes completely.

Only then, when the radiance disappears, do we know that it was really the genuine avijjã.

What remains is entirely unique. Its nature is absolutely pure.

Although it has never before been experienced, there’s nothing to doubt when it appears at that moment. Anything that might cause doubt has ceased along with it.

This is the end of all burdens.

All allusions to oneself, to the true essence of one’s being refer specifically to this genuine avijjã. They indicate that it is still intact. All investigations are done for its sake.

This self is what knows; this self is what understands. This self is radiant, light and happy. “I” and “mine”—the genuine avijjã lies here. Everything is done for its sake.

Once it finally disintegrates, so too does the personal perspective. Things are still done, but not for anyone’s sake.

It resembles a pot whose bottom has dropped away: regardless of how much water is poured in, not a drop is retained.

Thoughts and ideas continue to arise and cease as a natural function of the khandhas, but nothing adheres to the citta because the vessel that used to hold them, avijjã has been destroyed.

A thought arises at one instant and ceases the next. Since there is nothing to contain them and no one to lay claim to them, thoughts simply move on and vanish.

The nature that knows this complete emptiness of self is fully contented within. This nature is true absolute purity, totally free of all burdens.

In that moment when avijjã flipped over and fell from the citta, the sky appeared to be crashing down as the entire universe trembled and quaked.

For, in truth, it is solely avijjã that causes us to wander constantly through the universe of samsãra.

Edited January 1, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

You describe awareness as a witness to events, but even that has to be let go of. This often takes the form of a practice (mindfulness) where thoughts and actions are witnessed as a way of turning the attention back to simple awareness.

Mae Chee Kaew:

Then aware but knowing nothing in particular, suspended in emptiness, the crystal-clear radiance of mind she had treasured for so long suddenly turned and dissolved revealing a pure, all-knowing presence that filled the heart and pervaded the entire universe. The knower was everywhere, but nothing was known. Without characteristics and without source, emanating from no point in particular, knowing was simply a spontaneous happening of cosmic expanse. The radiant awareness had dissolved in an instant, leaving only purity of mind and the essential freedom of pure Dhamma — an absolutely unconditioned knowing that entirely transcended all forms of human conception.

[VincentRJ]

These descriptions sound like flights of the imagination attempting to describe what appears to be a very unusual experience, Rocky, a bit like a poet at his best.

I think perhaps one should ask oneself what is the purpose of striving to get such an experience. Do you need to find meaning in your life? Do you feel you are in a constant state of suffering (of any description) to some degree? Do you experience some sort of anxiety disorder, for example, which is a very common condition in which people have feelings of panic, fear and uneasiness for no apparent reason.

Do you have uncontrollable desires for food, sex, fashionable clothing, cars, cameras, i-phones etc. which cause you to do things or buy things you later regret?

All these would be good reasons to attempt to take control over 'yourself' so that you are not 'tricked' into behaving in ways that are not ultimately beneficial to you.

Speaking for myself, it is this aspect of Buddhism that appeals to me; the possibility of gaining complete control over 'oneself', to be free of all compulsions and to be undisturbed by insults, calamities, loss of property and so on.

I tend to think that the possibility of having some orgasmic, cosmic, ineffable experience should not be the main motivation, because that is a desire in itself.

[rockyysdt]

These descriptions sound like flights of the imagination attempting to describe what appears to be a very unusual experience, Rocky, a bit like a poet at his best.

I think perhaps one should ask oneself what is the purpose of striving to get such an experience. Do you need to find meaning in your life? Do you feel you are in a constant state of suffering (of any description) to some degree? Do you experience some sort of anxiety disorder, for example, which is a very common condition in which people have feelings of panic, fear and uneasiness for no apparent reason.

Do you have uncontrollable desires for food, sex, fashionable clothing, cars, cameras, i-phones etc. which cause you to do things or buy things you later regret?

All these would be good reasons to attempt to take control over 'yourself' so that you are not 'tricked' into behaving in ways that are not ultimately beneficial to you.

Speaking for myself, it is this aspect of Buddhism that appeals to me; the possibility of gaining complete control over 'oneself', to be free of all compulsions and to be undisturbed by insults, calamities, loss of property and so on.

I tend to think that the possibility of having some orgasmic, cosmic, ineffable experience should not be the main motivation, because that is a desire in itself.

Your post brings us back to the beginning.

At the end of the day, how do we know that any of it is true?

If it is, then isn't it our quest?

In terms of gaining complete control over yourself through Mindfulness this is only fleeting and colored.

Without samadhi, any insights gained are influenced by learned (conditioned) interpretations as your mind is still influenced by thoughts about sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations.

With Mindfulness, all you're doing is replacing an auto response with belief.

[VincentRJ]

These descriptions sound like flights of the imagination attempting to describe what appears to be a very unusual experience, Rocky, a bit like a poet at his best.

I think perhaps one should ask oneself what is the purpose of striving to get such an experience. Do you need to find meaning in your life? Do you feel you are in a constant state of suffering (of any description) to some degree? Do you experience some sort of anxiety disorder, for example, which is a very common condition in which people have feelings of panic, fear and uneasiness for no apparent reason.

Do you have uncontrollable desires for food, sex, fashionable clothing, cars, cameras, i-phones etc. which cause you to do things or buy things you later regret?

All these would be good reasons to attempt to take control over 'yourself' so that you are not 'tricked' into behaving in ways that are not ultimately beneficial to you.

Speaking for myself, it is this aspect of Buddhism that appeals to me; the possibility of gaining complete control over 'oneself', to be free of all compulsions and to be undisturbed by insults, calamities, loss of property and so on.

I tend to think that the possibility of having some orgasmic, cosmic, ineffable experience should not be the main motivation, because that is a desire in itself.

Your post brings us back to the beginning.

At the end of the day, how do we know that any of it is true?

If it is, then isn't it our quest?

In terms of gaining complete control over yourself through Mindfulness this is only fleeting and colored.

Without samadhi, any insights gained are influenced by learned (conditioned) interpretations as your mind is still influenced by thoughts about sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations.

With Mindfulness, all you're doing is replacing an auto response with belief.

What is true and what is not true is determined by its usefulness, to yourself and others. Ultimate truth is a foolish quest like the belief in a creator God. Our understanding of anything whatsoever is conditioned by our circumstances as a human being on the planet Earth. As long as we remain a human being, that fact must influence our views and opinions.

[rockyysdt]

What is true and what is not true is determined by its usefulness, to yourself and others. Ultimate truth is a foolish quest like the belief in a creator God. Our understanding of anything whatsoever is conditioned by our circumstances as a human being on the planet Earth. As long as we remain a human being, that fact must influence our views and opinions.

In terms of the quest, there are two ways.

1. Engage in Buddhist practice (Mindfulness, Meditation, & be ethical) until/if unsolicited insight opens our awareness or

2. Learn from others knowledge/experience and use this to focus/accelerate our practice.

Are you of the view that Nibbana and its attainment is foolish?

Edited January 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

I think perhaps one should ask oneself what is the purpose of striving to get such an experience. Do you need to find meaning in your life? Do you feel you are in a constant state of suffering (of any description) to some degree? Do you experience some sort of anxiety disorder, for example, which is a very common condition in which people have feelings of panic, fear and uneasiness for no apparent reason.

Do you have uncontrollable desires for food, sex, fashionable clothing, cars, cameras, i-phones etc. which cause you to do things or buy things you later regret?

All these would be good reasons to attempt to take control over 'yourself' so that you are not 'tricked' into behaving in ways that are not ultimately beneficial to you.

I tend to think that the possibility of having some orgasmic, cosmic, ineffable experience should not be the main motivation, because that is a desire in itself.

Do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged?

How do we embark on any life endeavor without desire or want?

[Brucenkhamen]

I think we can't know for certain that Nibbana is real unless/until we experience it for ourselves.

What we can do though is determine whether it's an ideal worth living for.

If we know Dukkha is real and we can see that the process of practice leads to the mind gradually letting go of Dukkha then I don't think it's unrealistic to expect there is the possibility the mind can eventually be free from being conditioned by Dukkha.

As practice gains momentum it becomes more about the journey and less about the goal, too much goal orientation can be self defeating.

The Buddha presented his path bottom up, start from where you are and build on that. Too much attention to big metaphysical questions doesn't really help, I think a better question is whether the path is worth living for and whether it is working and as we go on we get glimpses of what Nibbana may be like.

[rockyysdt]

I think we can't know for certain that Nibbana is real unless/until we experience it for ourselves.

What we can do though is determine whether it's an ideal worth living for.

If we know Dukkha is real and we can see that the process of practice leads to the mind gradually letting go of Dukkha then I don't think it's unrealistic to expect there is the possibility the mind can eventually be free from being conditioned by Dukkha.

As practice gains momentum it becomes more about the journey and less about the goal, too much goal orientation can be self defeating.

The Buddha presented his path bottom up, start from where you are and build on that. Too much attention to big metaphysical questions doesn't really help, I think a better question is whether the path is worth living for and whether it is working and as we go on we get glimpses of what Nibbana may be like.

The problem here is that you virtually have to devote your life to practice to get to a point where you might get a glimpse.

Even after years of practice, Both Maha Booha & Mei Chee Keuw were trapped under the spell of Samadhi, believing that they had found Nibbana.

Maha Boowa was under such addiction for 5 years before seeking guidance and progressing.

He went on to destroy this illusion and finally discovered something quite different.

So it still comes back to devoting your life to something which may or may not be.

[Brucenkhamen]

The problem here is that you virtually have to devote your life to practice to get to a point where you might get a glimpse.

That's not what I mean by glimpse. If at times one experiences the mind relatively less buffeted by craving, aversion, delusion even if it's fleeting it's usually enough of a glimpse to keep you going.

[VincentRJ]

In terms of the quest, there are two ways. 1. Engage in Buddhist practice (Mindfulness, Meditation, & be ethical) until/if unsolicited insight opens our awareness or

2. Learn from others knowledge/experience and use this to focus/accelerate our practice.

Are you of the view that Nibbana and its attainment is foolish?

Do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged? How do we embark on any life endeavor without desire or want?

Rocky,

This is my take on it, right or wrong.

One would hope that being mindful, ethical, considerate to others, and so on, would be a part of everyone's education. It should be a normal state of affairs in a civilised society, regardless of the predominant religion. Unfortunately there's a constant battle for resources and dominance over others taking place, which results in winners and losers, and a constant desire amongst many individuals to continue striving to acquire stuff they don't actually need, in order to 'keep up with the Jones's' or to 'keep up appearances' or to have new 'toys' to help fill their boredom.

I think the impetus to 'awaken' might result when a person has reached a certain level of maturity and begins to realise that this constant striving for ego-boosting effects, with the consequences of enormous economic waste and the unnecessary stress and anxiety of unfulfilled desires, is a type of madness that needs to be addressed.

The processes of Buddhist meditation and practices of mindfulness appear to offer a more satisfying alternative to the normal mess of life. However, I tend to think that the wondrous and miraculous descriptions of Nirvana and 'ultimate reality' are at least partly a ploy to get people to embark on the right path. People often need some sort of inducement to do what is only right and sensible, or good for themselves and others.

I recall some parable in the Buddhist texts (I can't remember the reference details) which attempted to give an example of a justified lie. The story went something like this. A prince in a palace noticed his young daughter playing around and showing off, on the top of one of the buildings, with several flights of stairs leading to the top.

Suddenly a fire broke out and a strong wind. It seemed clear to the prince that the fire would engulf the building in a very short time and that his daughter must run down the steps immediately to avoid the fire. However, the prince knew that his daughter, who was just a young child, was head-strong and disobedient. She would likely not come down at her father's request and he was not sure he'd have enough time to run up the several flights of stairs to grab her and bring her down safely. So he told the following lie.

"Darling daughter, the pony that you loved so much and wanted me to buy for you, has just arrived. Come down quickly to meet it." His daughter was so excited she rushed down the steps immediately, as fast as she could. When she arrived at the bottom she shouted, "Where's the pony, daddy? I want to see the pony."

The prince explained that the pony wasn't there, and pointed to the roof she was playing on just a few minutes ago. It was engulfed in flames.

[rockyysdt]

In terms of the quest, there are two ways. 1. Engage in Buddhist practice (Mindfulness, Meditation, & be ethical) until/if unsolicited insight opens our awareness or

2. Learn from others knowledge/experience and use this to focus/accelerate our practice.

Are you of the view that Nibbana and its attainment is foolish?

Do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged? How do we embark on any life endeavor without desire or want?

Rocky,

This is my take on it, right or wrong.

One would hope that being mindful, ethical, considerate to others, and so on, would be a part of everyone's education. It should be a normal state of affairs in a civilised society, regardless of the predominant religion. Unfortunately there's a constant battle for resources and dominance over others taking place, which results in winners and losers, and a constant desire amongst many individuals to continue striving to acquire stuff they don't actually need, in order to 'keep up with the Jones's' or to 'keep up appearances' or to have new 'toys' to help fill their boredom.

I think the impetus to 'awaken' might result when a person has reached a certain level of maturity and begins to realise that this constant striving for ego-boosting effects, with the consequences of enormous economic waste and the unnecessary stress and anxiety of unfulfilled desires, is a type of madness that needs to be addressed.

The processes of Buddhist meditation and practices of mindfulness appear to offer a more satisfying alternative to the normal mess of life. However, I tend to think that the wondrous and miraculous descriptions of Nirvana and 'ultimate reality' are at least partly a ploy to get people to embark on the right path. People often need some sort of inducement to do what is only right and sensible, or good for themselves and others.

I recall some parable in the Buddhist texts (I can't remember the reference details) which attempted to give an example of a justified lie. The story went something like this. A prince in a palace noticed his young daughter playing around and showing off, on the top of one of the buildings, with several flights of stairs leading to the top.

Suddenly a fire broke out and a strong wind. It seemed clear to the prince that the fire would engulf the building in a very short time and that his daughter must run down the steps immediately to avoid the fire. However, the prince knew that his daughter, who was just a young child, was head-strong and disobedient. She would likely not come down at her father's request and he was not sure he'd have enough time to run up the several flights of stairs to grab her and bring her down safely. So he told the following lie.

"Darling daughter, the pony that you loved so much and wanted me to buy for you, has just arrived. Come down quickly to meet it." His daughter was so excited she rushed down the steps immediately, as fast as she could. When she arrived at the bottom she shouted, "Where's the pony, daddy? I want to see the pony."

The prince explained that the pony wasn't there, and pointed to the roof she was playing on just a few minutes ago. It was engulfed in flames.

I thought you were logically and scientifically inclined Vincent.

Such a conspiracy would need to enlist many thousands and span some 2,500 years or so.

At the practitioner level, do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged?

Edited January 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

I thought you were logically and scientifically inclined Vincent.

Such a conspiracy would need to enlist many thousands and span some 2,500 years or so.

I am logically and scientifically inclined, Rocky. Conspiracies occur when people know the truth but hide it. It's not possible for someone to reach a state of Nirvana and discover that it is fake, then pretend that it isn't, just as it's not possible for a Christian to discover there is no creator God, then continue to pretend that there is.

It's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist when the possibilities, the space and the complexity is so huge, like the universe or the human brain with a hundred trillion synapses. However, you could certainly search your living room to see if there is an elephant hiding there, and not finding one, be quite certain that there isn't an elephant in your living room..

At the practitioner level, do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged?

Becoming 'awakened' or 'enlightened' is surely the goal of all intelligent people. Who wants to be unaware, ignorant and deluded?

[rockyysdt]

I am logically and scientifically inclined, Rocky.

Conspiracies occur when people know the truth but hide it. It's not possible for someone to reach a state of Nirvana and discover that it is fake, then pretend that it isn't, just as it's not possible for a Christian to discover there is no creator God, then continue to pretend that there is.

But wasn't that the picture you painted when you wrote?:

However, I tend to think that the wondrous and miraculous descriptions of Nirvana and 'ultimate reality' are at least partly a ploy to get people to embark on the right path. People often need some sort of inducement to do what is only right and sensible, or good for themselves and others.

[rockyysdt]

At the practitioner level, do you associate the impetus to Awaken with being unhinged?

Becoming 'awakened' or 'enlightened' is surely the goal of all intelligent people. Who wants to be unaware, ignorant and deluded?

Then why would you indicate that one should ask?

• Do you need to find meaning in your life?
• Do you feel you are in a constant state of suffering (of any description) to some degree?
• Do you experience some sort of anxiety disorder, for example, which is a very common condition in which people have feelings of panic, fear and uneasiness for no apparent reason.
• Do you have uncontrollable desires for food, sex, fashionable clothing, cars, cameras, i-phones etc. which cause you to do things or buy things you later regret?

[VincentRJ]

I am logically and scientifically inclined, Rocky.

Conspiracies occur when people know the truth but hide it. It's not possible for someone to reach a state of Nirvana and discover that it is fake, then pretend that it isn't, just as it's not possible for a Christian to discover there is no creator God, then continue to pretend that there is.

But wasn't that the picture you painted when you wrote?:

However, I tend to think that the wondrous and miraculous descriptions of Nirvana and 'ultimate reality' are at least partly a ploy to get people to embark on the right path. People often need some sort of inducement to do what is only right and sensible, or good for themselves and others.

Not really. Do you believe that all those who describe the state of Nirvana, or ultimate reality, in glowing terms, have actually experienced such a state? There seems to be some confusion as to whether one can continue living after achieving a state of Nirvana.

According to the Britannica encyclopaedia: "With the rise in the 1st century CE of the Mahayana tradition......... it was taught that the Buddha, whose life span is limitless, only pretended to pass into nirvana to encourage his followers to strive toward that goal. According to this tradition, the Buddha is eternal, inhabiting a place referred to as the “unlocated nirvana” (apratisthitanirvana), which is neither samsara nor nirvana."

[rockyysdt]

Not really. Do you believe that all those who describe the state of Nirvana, or ultimate reality, in glowing terms, have actually experienced such a state? There seems to be some confusion as to whether one can continue living after achieving a state of Nirvana.

According to the Britannica encyclopaedia: "With the rise in the 1st century CE of the Mahayana tradition......... it was taught that the Buddha, whose life span is limitless, only pretended to pass into nirvana to encourage his followers to strive toward that goal. According to this tradition, the Buddha is eternal, inhabiting a place referred to as the “unlocated nirvana” (apratisthitanirvana), which is neither samsara nor nirvana."

I don't know V.

That's why I began this topic.

Do you think people like Ven Maha Boowam Mei Chee Kuewm Ajahn Buddhadasa, and others are frauds?

[trd]

According to the Britannica encyclopaedia: "With the rise in the 1st century CE of the Mahayana tradition......... it was taught that the Buddha, whose life span is limitless, only pretended to pass into nirvana to encourage his followers to strive toward that goal. According to this tradition, the Buddha is eternal, inhabiting a place referred to as the “unlocated nirvana” (apratisthitanirvana), which is neither samsara nor nirvana."

So the Encyclopedia Britannica is now your guide.

Have you considered using your inner guide?

[VincentRJ]

According to the Britannica encyclopaedia: "With the rise in the 1st century CE of the Mahayana tradition......... it was taught that the Buddha, whose life span is limitless, only pretended to pass into nirvana to encourage his followers to strive toward that goal. According to this tradition, the Buddha is eternal, inhabiting a place referred to as the “unlocated nirvana” (apratisthitanirvana), which is neither samsara nor nirvana."

So the Encyclopedia Britannica is now your guide.

Have you considered using your inner guide?

Of course, Trd. I always use my inner guide, with an emphasis on common sense. The Kalama Sutta lays the foundations quite succinctly, for my spirit of enquiry.

[VincentRJ]

Not really. Do you believe that all those who describe the state of Nirvana, or ultimate reality, in glowing terms, have actually experienced such a state? There seems to be some confusion as to whether one can continue living after achieving a state of Nirvana.

According to the Britannica encyclopaedia: "With the rise in the 1st century CE of the Mahayana tradition......... it was taught that the Buddha, whose life span is limitless, only pretended to pass into nirvana to encourage his followers to strive toward that goal. According to this tradition, the Buddha is eternal, inhabiting a place referred to as the “unlocated nirvana” (apratisthitanirvana), which is neither samsara nor nirvana."

I don't know V.

That's why I began this topic.

Do you think people like Ven Maha Boowam Mei Chee Kuewm Ajahn Buddhadasa, and others are frauds?

Not at all. How would I know. I don't claim to have had any experience of an ultimate reality. I don't claim to be a arhat or arahant, and I've never personally met anyone who claims to be. However, I think it's possible that a misidentification of an experience could take place.

[camerata]

How do we know any of it (Nibbana - end of Dukkha) is true?

Some have practiced for decades without fruit.

It's odd how few Buddhists have read a biography of the Buddha. The classic account by Thich Nhat Hanh gives a real sense of the man, the problems he faced and how he overcame them.

The first thing that rings true is that the Buddha said his message went against the stream of the world. No charlatan would say something like that. Another thing is that the demeanour of the Buddha and his disciples is often mentioned as remarkable, or the reason people ordain. One man asks the Buddha if he is a god. Clearly they had all been transformed in some significant way. But the Buddha does mention how hard it is to awaken and that we are all at different levels. There were many arahants in the Buddha's day, apparently because he had a genius for teaching, but I reckon pretty soon after he died the number reaching arahantship dropped rapidly.

Although we don't know the precise nature of nibbana, on the balance of probabilities it seems to exist (and is not a 2600-year-old hoax), at least at the level of an end to dukkha achieved by a revolutionary transformation of mind. Whether it exists as "eternal bliss" is open to speculation. There is only one comment about nibbana after the death of an arahant in the Pali Canon, according to Ajahn Amaro. Food for thought!

I personally don't see it as an all-or-nothing proposition. You get the benefits of practice in this life whether you attain nibbana or not.