Why do many (especially Theravadins) emphasise the importance of Mindfulness (Awareness) practice?

[Brucenkhamen]

There seems to be a lot of agreement, at least on a verbal conceptual level between Dzogchen and her practices and philosophies.

If you haven't already you might want to check out this book http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewBook.php?id=28&ref=deb by Ajahn Amaro a senior Theravadin monk who has also been practicing Dzogchen.

[rockyysdt]

The idea of "taking thoughts into samadhi" doesn't make sense to me because samadhi is free of thought. It is one pointedness because the mind is just experiencing its own nature, its undisturbed ground state without the fluctuations of thought.

I don't disgree with you TRD, but I see this often taught.

To take an idea into a meditative state in order to gain insight.

Perhaps others can comment.

[connda]

The idea of "taking thoughts into samadhi" doesn't make sense to me because samadhi is free of thought. It is one pointedness because the mind is just experiencing its own nature, its undisturbed ground state without the fluctuations of thought.

I don't disgree with you TRD, but I see this often taught.

To take an idea into a meditative state in order to gain insight.

Perhaps others can comment.

Maybe their is confusion over the meaning of words here. I use samadhi to simply mean meditation. I'll tell my wife, in Thai, that I'm going to my room to practice samadhi. Can you take a 'thought' into meditation? Sure, it's called a mantra (actually a sound) or the thought "BUD" on the in-breath and "DHO" on the out-breath. These are your primary objects of meditation or your primary objects of samadhi. So a discussion like this is more of an exercise in semantics. The actual practice of meditation (samadhi) is not, it's direct experience. The objects of meditation, your breath, a sound, may disappear as your mind calms and reaches subtler levels, until they seem to 'disappear'. Again, I'm speaking from my own experience. Hope it helps.

Edited January 5, 2015 by connda

[trd]

The idea of "taking thoughts into samadhi" doesn't make sense to me because samadhi is free of thought. It is one pointedness because the mind is just experiencing its own nature, its undisturbed ground state without the fluctuations of thought.

I don't disgree with you TRD, but I see this often taught.

To take an idea into a meditative state in order to gain insight.

Perhaps others can comment.

Maybe their is confusion over the meaning of words here. I use samadhi to simply mean meditation. I'll tell my wife, in Thai, that I'm going to my room to practice samadhi. Can you take a 'thought' into meditation? Sure, it's called a mantra (actually a sound) or the thought "BUD" on the in-breath and "DHO" on the out-breath. These are your primary objects of meditation or your primary objects of samadhi. So a discussion like this is more of an exercise in semantics. The actual practice of meditation (samadhi) is not, it's direct experience. The objects of meditation, your breath, a sound, may disappear as your mind calms and reaches subtler levels, until they seem to 'disappear'. Again, I'm speaking from my own experience. Hope it helps.

Yes, you can take a thought such as a mantra into meditation, but as you say, when it disappears, (you transcend it) then there is the possibility of samadhi. This is not semantics.

[Shaunduhpostman]

There seems to be a lot of agreement, at least on a verbal conceptual level between Dzogchen and her practices and philosophies.

If you haven't already you might want to check out this book http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewBook.php?id=28&ref=deb by Ajahn Amaro a senior Theravadin monk who has also been practicing Dzogchen.

Very cool to know that a forest monk is practicing Dzogchen. Before I became interested in dharma I used to teach a lot of monks at Mahidol Univeristy, I had some very, sometimes shocking and bizarre situations that I later learned were strikingly similar to Vajrayana mahasiddha style attempts to help me drop my ego games. I am fully convinced that Vajrayana is practiced very secretly in Thailand or that Vajrayana style emerges spontaneously from Thervada practices sometimes, so why not Dzogchen?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Shaunduhpostman

[Shaunduhpostman]

The idea of "taking thoughts into samadhi" doesn't make sense to me because samadhi is free of thought. It is one pointedness because the mind is just experiencing its own nature, its undisturbed ground state without the fluctuations of thought.

I don't disgree with you TRD, but I see this often taught.

To take an idea into a meditative state in order to gain insight.

Perhaps others can comment.

To me "taking thoughts into samadhi" kind of works as a metaphor. Taking what I say with a grain of salt, I may well be just another nutcase, but when I am doing a sitting session, it is like that, the thoughts are going to be there, nothing that I can do about that and no point in fighting it. With some waiting and patience though, samadhi arises and then there will be a nodal point where you are aware of samadhi and thoughts before samadhi as a kind of fraction in the algebra of emptiiness cross cancels out the fraction of thought solving the "problem" and voila = emptiness.

By the way, I am terrible at mathematics, always struggled but when I solved the equation correctly, it was this instantaneous self existing truth that suddenly showed itself as the easiest thing on earth.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Shaunduhpostman

[trd]

That was a good book recommendation from Bruce. I read it some time ago, but just looking over the preface, I picked this out as it seems relevant to the current discussion.

Ajahn Chah, a Thai master who is considered the head of Ajahn Amaro’s lineage (and the teacher of Ajahn Sumedho and Jack Kornfield), referred often to the “One Who Knows” as a pointer to the inherent wisdom within awareness itself. Ajahn Buddhadasa says that “emptiness and mindfulness are one.” Ajahn MahaBoowa, a contemporary of Ajahn Chah’s who learned from the same master, Ajahn Mun, says of impermanence: “This vanishes, that vanishes, but that which knows their vanishing doesn’t vanish. . . . All that remains is simple awareness, utterly pure.”

Edited January 5, 2015 by trd

[connda]

That was a good book recommendation from Bruce. I read it some time ago, but just looking over the preface, I picked this out as it seems relevant to the current discussion.

Ajahn Chah, a Thai master who is considered the head of Ajahn Amaro’s lineage (and the teacher of Ajahn Sumedho and Jack Kornfield), referred often to the “One Who Knows” as a pointer to the inherent wisdom within awareness itself. Ajahn Buddhadasa says that “emptiness and mindfulness are one.” Ajahn MahaBoowa, a contemporary of Ajahn Chah’s who learned from the same master, Ajahn Mun, says of impermanence: “This vanishes, that vanishes, but that which knows their vanishing doesn’t vanish. . . . All that remains is simple awareness, utterly pure.”

Bingo!

[Brucenkhamen]

Very cool to know that a forest monk is practicing Dzogchen. Before I became interested in dharma I used to teach a lot of monks at Mahidol Univeristy, I had some very, sometimes shocking and bizarre situations that I later learned were strikingly similar to Vajrayana mahasiddha style attempts to help me drop my ego games. I am fully convinced that Vajrayana is practiced very secretly in Thailand or that Vajrayana style emerges spontaneously from Thervada practices sometimes, so why not Dzogchen?

I can't remember how I came across this interview between Sam Harris and Joseph Goldstein see the soundcloud on this page http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-path-and-the-goal the first half is just about how Joseph got into the practice, in the second half they compare vipassana and dzogchen and is quite interesting.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Brucenkhamen

[Shaunduhpostman]

Great, thanks for the link, Brucenkhamen, I think that kind of comparison, Vipassana-Dzogchen, if you have any experience with both, is very important if you are trying to be a Dzogchen practitioner.

Allan B. Wallace is another very highly accomplished practitioner, scholar, writer who teaches and writes on both of these as well. His initial training was as a monk in Sri Lanka, in a Theravada lineage, years later he became interested in Tibetan traditions and spent years in Nepal learning Tibetan, translating texts, and practicing. His Dzogchen retreats that he leads students on still include a healthy dose of samatha-vipasana which he probably picked up when he was a Theravadan.

Here's a link to the entirety of one of Alan B. Wallace's retreats captured on audio which, if I have found the right retreat, includes guided meditation both DZogchen and shamatha-vipassana meditation. About 30 hours of teachings:

https://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

Also, direct introduction to nature of mind, a sudden and revelatory operation performed by a Dzogchen master is needed for any Dzogchen meditation. Definitely needed if you or anyone else is to get full value out of the Allan B. Wallace meditations. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, probably the most highly respected Dzogchen exponent living today regularly gives free Dzogchen teachings and the full direct introduction to nature of mind procedure 3 times a year and sometimes he gives it in conjunction with his regular monthly teaching series. Probably contrary to what you might think, direct introduction can be conferred via webcast, so there is no excuse given you have full interest in Dzogchen. As the upcoming teachings are specifically Dzogchen related, he will likely give direct introduction at the webcasted retreat starting tomorrow.

Free public Ati Yoga (Dzogchen Meditation) Retreat and teachings via live webcast:

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/

January 16: 11:00pm-1:00am (Thailand Time)

January 17: 5:00pm-7:00pm

January 18: 5:00pm-7:00pm

January 19: 5:00pm-7:00pm

January 20: 5:00pm-7:00pm

[ffb]

Mindfulness practice and samadhi are not in opposition to each other. Mindfulness cultures the mind to continually go back to its source and subsequently helps and strengthens that process in sitting practice. Sitting practice is needed to gain the extra quietness that will facilitate transcendence of mind leading to temporary samadhi, which is more difficult to achieve with mindfulness practice during activity because there are more distractions. But whatever you do, the goal must be samadhi.

Is Mindfulness practice worthy on its own?

Can one Awaken purely by practicing it?

Are there other benefits other than Awakening?

Luang Por Jaran at his very popular temple in Singhburi teaches only Vipassana, as does Luang Por Tong of Chom Tong, Chiangmai. Neither of them start off with Samatha meditation.

My teacher Supawan Green, a student of Luang Por Tean both teach only being mindful of the movement, sensation and breath ...being aware in the moment.

Edited January 22, 2015 by ffb

[rockyysdt]

Thanks ffb.

I don't see any difference.

Even when seated, focusing on breath, movement of the breath, through the air passages and into the lungs, movement of chest expanding and contracting, and sensations of the body, isn't this also mindfulness?

Samadhi comes of its own accord.