Why do many (especially Theravadins) emphasise the importance of Mindfulness (Awareness) practice?

[rockyysdt]

Why do many (especially Theravandans) emphasise the importance of Mindfulness (or Awareness) practice in ones daily life, often over Concentration (Samadhi)?

• A number of practitioners, as well as Arahants of note (Ven Maha Boowa, Mae Chee Kaew, & Ajahn Buddhadasa included), teach that true Insight (Pali: Vipassana), which enables the discernment of "formations" (conditioned phenomena based on the five agreggates), comes about with a concentrated and calm Mind, free from thoughts about sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations.

A state firmly fixed in samãdhi.

Samadhi in itself cannot bring about liberation, but goes hand in hand with the development of Insight.

Quote (Ven Maha Boowa):

Samãdhi’s main function on the path of practice is to support and sustain the development of wisdom. It is well suited to this task because a mind that is calm and concentrated is fully satisfied, and does not seek external distractions.

Thoughts about sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations no longer impinge upon an awareness that is firmly fixed in samãdhi.

Calm and concentration are the mind’s natural sustenance. Once it becomes satiated with its favorite nourishment, it does not wander off where it strays into idle thinking. It is now fully prepared to undertake the kind of purposeful thinking, investigation and reflection that constitute the practice of wisdom. If the mind has yet to settle down—if it still hankers after sense impressions, if it still wants to chase after thoughts and emotions—its investigations will never lead to true wisdom.

They will lead only to discursive thought, guesswork and speculation—unfounded interpretations of reality based simply on what has been learned and remembered.

Instead of leading to wisdom, and the cessation of suffering, such directionless thinking becomes samudaya—the primary cause of suffering.

The Lord Buddha taught us to first develop samãdhi.

A mind that remains undistracted by peripheral thoughts and emotions is able to focus exclusively on whatever arises in its field of awareness and to investigate such phenomena in light of the truth without the interference of guesswork or speculation.

This is an important principle. The investigation proceeds smoothly, with fluency and skill. This is the nature of genuine wisdom: investigating, contemplating and understanding, but never being distracted or misled by conjecture.

• Mindfulness or Awareness practice in our modern daily lives falls well short of Samahdi and therefore is subject to the influence of thoughts, feelings, sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations.

What is the purpose of Mindfulness or Awareness practice in our ordinary daily lives?

Does it give us the ability to think before we act in our daily lives?

Is it a tool to help us to change our lives (habits/conditioning)?

Is it a way of bringing about new habits & conditioning, thus reducing the accumulation of negative khamma, and increasing positive khamma in our lives?

Should we just live our lives as we are (conditioning) or should we work towards improving ourselves and how we live our daily lives?

Edited January 2, 2015 by rockyysdt

[trd]

You are suggesting that samadhi is a practice. It is not. This misunderstanding comes about because it is often translated as "concentration". In common usage, to concentrate means we are trying to focus our minds on one particular thought or task to the exclusion of everything else and it most certainly requires effort. This is not samadhi. A better translation would be "one pointedness of mind". Samadhi comes about quite spontaneously and without any effort when the mind settles down into a very quiet state as a result of meditation practice.

When this happens you could say that the mind has become concentrated because it is now settled into one pointedness of just experiencing simple awareness without the distraction of thought. This may sound like a subtle difference in meaning, but the two interpretations are worlds apart. One defines it as a practice, (a cause) the other defines it as an effect. It is the latter to which Maha Boowa refers.

Mindfulness practice and samadhi are not in opposition to each other. Mindfulness cultures the mind to continually go back to its source and subsequently helps and strengthens that process in sitting practice. Sitting practice is needed to gain the extra quietness that will facilitate transcendence of mind leading to temporary samadhi, which is more difficult to achieve with mindfulness practice during activity because there are more distractions. But whatever you do, the goal must be samadhi.

Now we come to the word "investigation". In common usage, to investigate means to use the mind to analyze, discern and discriminate facts and information, to examine something systematically in order to come to a conclusion about the truth of a situation.

Maha Boowa says,

"Calm and concentration are the mind’s natural sustenance. Once it becomes satiated with its favorite nourishment, it does not wander off where it strays into idle thinking. It is now fully prepared to undertake the kind of purposeful thinking, investigation and reflection that constitute the practice of wisdom."

He is saying the mind is satisfied with just being still. It is satiated by innocently experiencing its own nature. But when he speaks of purposeful thinking and investigation that constitutes the practice of wisdom, what does he mean? Is this an act of doing. Is he saying, I am now still, but let's forget that and go back to speculation and conceptualisation about the meaning of words. Is he saying, I have experienced boundless awareness but now let's go back to the false self and mind and think about wisdom and the true nature of things and maybe I will come up with the right answer this time.

The question you have to ask is, who is the thinker? In reality there is no one who thinks thoughts. If I develop discrimination of the separateness of awareness and mind, then as the passive witnessing consciousness, I see thoughts appear randomly and spontaneously. There is no self which exists as an entity who is by some act of volition or free will, deciding which thoughts to think next. From the perspective of the false self, I am the doer. But from the perspective of the witnessing consciousness there is no doer. If ignorance as a manifestation, functioning and expression of mind appears in an apparent doer of action, then so does wisdom expressing itself in some value which can be communicated to another. If I say something and someone responds to those words by proclaiming them as wise words, this is not true wisdom in the sense of becoming free from dukkha.

Maha Boowa is talking of direct seeing, direct cognition of wisdom from the wellspring of silent awareness. He goes on to say,

"The investigation proceeds smoothly, with fluency and skill. This is the nature of genuine wisdom: investigating, contemplating and understanding, but never being distracted or misled by conjecture."

He does not mean this "investigation" is an act of analysis. He is not doing anything. He says there is no distraction from conjecture. This is an important clue to his true meaning. Without conjecture there is only clear seeing, a completely spontaneous outpouring of wisdom without a doer. There is nothing to do whatsoever. There is no seeking of any kind. Wisdom and insight are a total expression of permanent samadhi. The water gushes from the source of the river. You cannot stop it or change it. There is no concern about meaning anymore, but yet meaning still continues to play its part in the relative just for the maintenance of the body.

But the search for meaning is exactly what most practising Buddhists are doing. There is continual study and conjecture about the meaning of scripture as if by somehow gaining a deep understanding of the words this will lead to wisdom and insight. Without samadhi this can never be.

[VincentRJ]

If I develop discrimination of the separateness of awareness and mind, then as the passive witnessing consciousness, I see thoughts appear randomly and spontaneously.

That doesn't seem right to me, Trd. Thoughts are never random and spontaneous. There is always a cause and effect. Have you been seduced too much by the random weirdness of quantum mechanics?

One technique in meditation is to allow a sequence of thoughts to arise, follow and remember the thoughts, and then trace the thoughts backwards in order to understand how one thought led to another. There's always a connection between thoughts.

[trd]

If I develop discrimination of the separateness of awareness and mind, then as the passive witnessing consciousness, I see thoughts appear randomly and spontaneously.

That doesn't seem right to me, Trd. Thoughts are never random and spontaneous. There is always a cause and effect. Have you been seduced too much by the random weirdness of quantum mechanics?

One technique in meditation is to allow a sequence of thoughts to arise, follow and remember the thoughts, and then trace the thoughts backwards in order to understand how one thought led to another. There's always a connection between thoughts.

If there is no doer then who decides what you think? If a thought arises spontaneously to cause you to hit a snooker ball thereby producing a noticeable and measurable effect then all we can say is that a spontaneous thought caused a localized cause and effect. The problem is that we can never determine first cause. What caused you to hit the snooker ball. I decided to walk up to the table. What caused that. I decided to walk into a bar with a snooker table. What caused that. I had the idea when I awoke this morning to play snooker and so on. What caused the Big Bang!

The witnessing consciousness will just observe thoughts appearing. If you say thoughts are not random, there must be a self who decided to think the thought. But what makes that self decide to think the thought. Is there another self behind that one who decided what the self in front is going to think. My advice is this. You do not have free will, but act as though you do.

This cannot be rationalized by the mind. It is beyond understanding.

Edited January 2, 2015 by trd

[rockyysdt]

Mindfulness practice and samadhi are not in opposition to each other. Mindfulness cultures the mind to continually go back to its source and subsequently helps and strengthens that process in sitting practice. Sitting practice is needed to gain the extra quietness that will facilitate transcendence of mind leading to temporary samadhi, which is more difficult to achieve with mindfulness practice during activity because there are more distractions. But whatever you do, the goal must be samadhi.

Is Mindfulness practice worthy on its own?

Can one Awaken purely by practicing it?

Are there other benefits other than Awakening?

[rockyysdt]

"The investigation proceeds smoothly, with fluency and skill. This is the nature of genuine wisdom: investigating, contemplating and understanding, but never being distracted or misled by conjecture."

He does not mean this "investigation" is an act of analysis. He is not doing anything. He says there is no distraction from conjecture. This is an important clue to his true meaning. Without conjecture there is only clear seeing, a completely spontaneous outpouring of wisdom without a doer. There is nothing to do whatsoever. There is no seeking of any kind. Wisdom and insight are a total expression of permanent samadhi. The water gushes from the source of the river. You cannot stop it or change it. There is no concern about meaning anymore, but yet meaning still continues to play its part in the relative just for the maintenance of the body.

But the search for meaning is exactly what most practising Buddhists are doing. There is continual study and conjecture about the meaning of scripture as if by somehow gaining a deep understanding of the words this will lead to wisdom and insight. Without samadhi this can never be.

There is widespread practice of taking thoughts with one into Samadhi in order to either gain insight from these, and/or become suffused in these.

One example is the Brahmaviharas (The Four Immeasurables).

Such things as Metta, Karuna, Mudita, & Upekkha.

Practitioners take these thoughts into states of Samadhi to gain insight from them.

They then go on to become suffused in them, and instructed to radiate these out in all directions.

Is this a misplaced practice?

Should we all go into Samadhi empty of anything.

[VincentRJ]

If I develop discrimination of the separateness of awareness and mind, then as the passive witnessing consciousness, I see thoughts appear randomly and spontaneously.

That doesn't seem right to me, Trd. Thoughts are never random and spontaneous. There is always a cause and effect. Have you been seduced too much by the random weirdness of quantum mechanics?

One technique in meditation is to allow a sequence of thoughts to arise, follow and remember the thoughts, and then trace the thoughts backwards in order to understand how one thought led to another. There's always a connection between thoughts.

The witnessing consciousness will just observe thoughts appearing. If you say thoughts are not random, there must be a self who decided to think the thought. But what makes that self decide to think the thought. Is there another self behind that one who decided what the self in front is going to think. My advice is this. You do not have free will, but act as though you do.

That sounds like a terribly cumbersome process, Trd, to make a decision to have a thought.

If one sees a snake wriggling across the path in front of one, as one walks along, surely one doesn't have to first make a decision to think 'there's a snake'. Thoughts about snakes, and/or one's safety, should automatically result when the visual impression of the snake reaches the brain. The precise train of thoughts that arises, as a consequence of that visual impression, will vary depending on the individual. Some people who have a phobia about snakes might tremble with anxiety. Others might be fascinated by the snake's smooth, fluid movement as it slithers away, and think 'how beautiful'.

Depending on the circumstances, others might simply register the presence of the snake but not give it much thought because they are engaged in some other activity which requires their full attention.

If one is sitting quietly with eyes shut, trying to concentrate on one's breath, then thoughts will most probably arise. One might get the impression they are all just random thoughts, especially if one is trying to have no thoughts at all, but I suspect the thoughts are always connected through association.

When Gautama was sitting under the Bodhi tree to gain enlightenment, and recalled thousands of previous births in one night, I imagine they were not literally previous births but previous thoughts, all connected.

[Balance]

If I develop discrimination of the separateness of awareness and mind, then as the passive witnessing consciousness, I see thoughts appear randomly and spontaneously.

That doesn't seem right to me, Trd. Thoughts are never random and spontaneous. There is always a cause and effect. Have you been seduced too much by the random weirdness of quantum mechanics?

One technique in meditation is to allow a sequence of thoughts to arise, follow and remember the thoughts, and then trace the thoughts backwards in order to understand how one thought led to another. There's always a connection between thoughts.

Some years back I belonged to a guided Tantric meditation group. Using the Ohm mantra through the prayer beads, it allowed for the mind both focus on breath and experience the energy of of the sound created by the group. In this way one could reach a state which I (and others) describe as the "the space between thought." At the conclusion, each individual in the circle, if they chose to , offered to the group and those seated on either side the feelings derived from their experience. Unfortunaely, I have not been able to find a similar group in Chiang Mai. Any one know of one?

[kerrysum]

Actually it means an awareness, some Thais practice it and some do not. Remember Thailand has changed a lot over the years, it is not the same any more.... I have like the Thervada in many ways, it leads to an understanding, and better communication......

[camerata]

Off-topic posts and replies to those posts have been deleted. This is a serious discussion about mindfulness in Buddhism.

[John1thru10]

Here's my take on it - and this is from a person who studied for several years under Tibetan monks, AND himself (myself) was a TERRIBLE student! ha. I just don't want to sound preachy for that reason; it's just I observed (and Thailand branch is different, also). That being said...

We were taught that a great deal of it (outside of the importance of each moment beforehand), it's about the moments of death. The state at death having such repercussions going 'forward'. And, with the general idea that people, at death, panic more than any other time. So, the implication seemed to be (to me), that one needs to be always practicing that calmness of mind before then.

Again, I am such a poor student, I blow it constantly each day. But the rinpoche I studied with, he was with Timothy Leary when he died, and told him (I heard) 'You have tuned out enough, now time to tune in', ha

[Brucenkhamen]

Mindfulness practice does develop samadhi in unison with insight, the main difference is the awareness is of changing phenomena rather than one pointed with a single object. This samadhi doesn't tend to lend itself to absorption into jhana, but it does lend itself to the possibility of becoming continuous as one goes about ones day to day activities.

Classicly it's presented to do concentration practice first and then insight but I think it's important to know where one's mind is at, for me, and I think a lot of people the mind just isn't ready to develop one pointedness. If I had strived for jhana in my early days it would have been an exercise in frustration leading to discouragement, however mindfulness gave the opportunity to develop insight and the ability to let go leading to samadhi gradually over time. For busy people with families and careers I think it's a more realistic and flexible approach as reflective awareness, insight, letting go, and samadhi gradually build on each other over time.

As awareness grows the practice gains momentum of it's own, deepening samadhi becomes more possible.

[rockyysdt]

Classicly it's presented to do concentration practice first and then insight but I think it's important to know where one's mind is at, for me, and I think a lot of people the mind just isn't ready to develop one pointedness. If I had strived for jhana in my early days it would have been an exercise in frustration leading to discouragement, however mindfulness gave the opportunity to develop insight and the ability to let go leading to samadhi gradually over time. For busy people with families and careers I think it's a more realistic and flexible approach as reflective awareness, insight, letting go, and samadhi gradually build on each other over time.

As awareness grows the practice gains momentum of it's own, deepening samadhi becomes more possible.

Some thoughts which come to mind are:

True progress can virtually only occur if we devote our lives to practice.

Quote: Ven Maha Booha:

As I explained many times, I was always inclined to sacrifice my life for the sake of Dhamma. No one would believe how much effort I put into the practice. Since others have not done what I have, they cannot imagine the extraordinary effort I put into attaining this Supreme Dhamma. But I did exert such effort, and these are the results. It demonstrates the power of uncompromising diligence when it is used for Dhamma. The more determination, the better.

A steady deep state of samadhi needs to be achieved for any kind of insight to take place.

Whilst we have responsibilities in our lives (dependents, wives, children, infirm parents, charities), it's difficult to extract ourselves from daily living.

There is also Ego which doesn't want to relinquish the sensory pleasures of our world.

The ultimate question arises, when is it ever a good time for us to be ready to take on serious single pointed concentration?

The Buddha Awakened in his thirties.

Just like women who leave childbirth until their forties due to career pursuits, are we leaving it a bit late?

[Brucenkhamen]

Whilst we have responsibilities in our lives (dependents, wives, children, infirm parents, charities), it's difficult to extract ourselves from daily living.

One just needs to look honestly at where you're at, what responsibilities you have, where your mind is at and how awareness is best cultivated in your situation.

You can have a vital practice living a normal every day life with work and family responsibilities if you make the most of your opportunities. A lot of senior monks who are abbots of monasteries are probably busier than you or me.

Changing your situation by giving up your responsibilities isn't always the best answer.

Let the goal take care of itself, our job is to take care of the mind.

[rockyysdt]

That doesn't seem right to me, Trd. Thoughts are never random and spontaneous. There is always a cause and effect. Have you been seduced too much by the random weirdness of quantum mechanics?

One technique in meditation is to allow a sequence of thoughts to arise, follow and remember the thoughts, and then trace the thoughts backwards in order to understand how one thought led to another. There's always a connection between thoughts.

Quote: Ven Maha Boowa:

Put simply, the citta (heart mind) lets go when wisdom sees through the mental components of personality; before then, it holds on.

Once wisdom has penetrated them completely, the citta can relinquish them all, recognizing that they are merely ripplings inside the citta and have no real substance. Whether good or bad, thoughts arise and cease all the same. No matter how they appear in the mind, they are just configurations created by saññã (perception) and sankhãra (volitional formation - fabrication) and will simply vanish. There are no exceptions. No thought lasts more than an instant. Lacking duration, thoughts lack true substance and meaning; and therefore, they cannot be trusted.

So, what keeps providing us with these thoughts?

What keeps producing them?

One moment it’s churning out one thought; the next moment, another, forever deceiving oneself. They come from sights, sounds, tastes, smells and tactile sensations; they come from feeling, memory, thought and consciousness. We take our assumptions about our perceptions for granted, perpetuating the fraud until it becomes a fire burning our hearts. The citta is contaminated by just these factors, these conventions of the mind.

Edited January 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[trd]

That sounds like a terribly cumbersome process, Trd, to make a decision to have a thought.

There is no cumbersome process. Thoughts appear and disappear quite spontaneously. I thought you understood this was a discussion on the impossibility of determining first cause. I never said this is done consciously. When you are eating, do you consciously say to yourself, I must raise the spoon to my mouth. Now I must open my mouth and place the food inside. No one thinks like that.

Of course we see the results of cause and effect. And as long as you identify with yourself as a self that is the doer of action, then this will be the case.

[Brucenkhamen]

So, what keeps providing us with these thoughts?

What keeps producing them?

Not me, at least most of the useless thought that arises I didn't ask for, they arise because of past conditioning. To know this is enough, it's not generally fruitful to try and track down that conditioning to see the cause of a thought you already know is useless.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Brucenkhamen

[rockyysdt]

Whilst we have responsibilities in our lives (dependents, wives, children, infirm parents, charities), it's difficult to extract ourselves from daily living.

One just needs to look honestly at where you're at, what responsibilities you have, where your mind is at and how awareness is best cultivated in your situation.

You can have a vital practice living a normal every day life with work and family responsibilities if you make the most of your opportunities. A lot of senior monks who are abbots of monasteries are probably busier than you or me.

Changing your situation by giving up your responsibilities isn't always the best answer.

Let the goal take care of itself, our job is to take care of the mind.

Agreed Bruce.

I for one need to get on top of my own time management and also review what's important in my life.

I was also looking at it from another perspective.

Decisions I would have made in hindsight, freeing me from the responsibilities I find myself with today.

But then these are the fruits of my Khamma.

[Brucenkhamen]

I for one need to get on top of my own time management and also review what's important in my life.

Tell me about it.

I think time management is less of an issue if you can keep coming back to awareness again and again as you go through your daily activities though.

My daughter is my best teacher at times.

[rockyysdt]

Quote: Ven Maha Boowa.

So, what keeps providing us with these thoughts?

What keeps producing them?

Not me, at least most of the useless thought that arises I didn't ask for, they arise because of past conditioning. To know this is enough, it's not generally fruitful to try and track down that conditioning to see the cause of a thought you already know is useless.

Just clarifying.

These were the Ven Maha Boowa's questions, not mine.

[VincentRJ]

That sounds like a terribly cumbersome process, Trd, to make a decision to have a thought.

There is no cumbersome process. Thoughts appear and disappear quite spontaneously. I thought you understood this was a discussion on the impossibility of determining first cause. I never said this is done consciously. When you are eating, do you consciously say to yourself, I must raise the spoon to my mouth. Now I must open my mouth and place the food inside. No one thinks like that.

Of course we see the results of cause and effect. And as long as you identify with yourself as a self that is the doer of action, then this will be the case.

Trd,

Just so we're talking about the same thing, here's the dictionary definition of spontaneous: "Performed or occurring as a result of a sudden impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.Occurring without apparent external cause."

Now I would agree that thoughts can certainly appear to arise spontaneously, especially when trying to meditate. Whether or not they actually do arise without cause, is what I'm questioning.

We certainly know that some thoughts simply follow on from a previous thought, through a process of association or even a logical progression. What category of thoughts do you have in mind that arise completely spontaneously without a prompt or cause, however subtle?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'first cause'. Are you referring to the initial thought in a series of thoughts during a specific period of meditation, or the cause of the first thought in one's entire life, which would have occurred in the womb?

[trd]

That sounds like a terribly cumbersome process, Trd, to make a decision to have a thought.

There is no cumbersome process. Thoughts appear and disappear quite spontaneously. I thought you understood this was a discussion on the impossibility of determining first cause. I never said this is done consciously. When you are eating, do you consciously say to yourself, I must raise the spoon to my mouth. Now I must open my mouth and place the food inside. No one thinks like that.

Of course we see the results of cause and effect. And as long as you identify with yourself as a self that is the doer of action, then this will be the case.

Trd,

Just so we're talking about the same thing, here's the dictionary definition of spontaneous: "Performed or occurring as a result of a sudden impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.Occurring without apparent external cause."

Now I would agree that thoughts can certainly appear to arise spontaneously, especially when trying to meditate. Whether or not they actually do arise without cause, is what I'm questioning.

We certainly know that some thoughts simply follow on from a previous thought, through a process of association or even a logical progression. What category of thoughts do you have in mind that arise completely spontaneously without a prompt or cause, however subtle?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'first cause'. Are you referring to the initial thought in a series of thoughts during a specific period of meditation, or the cause of the first thought in one's entire life, which would have occurred in the womb?

Your dictionary definition is spot on. This is exactly how thoughts appear "to the witnessing consciousness".

[rockyysdt]

What category of thoughts do you have in mind that arise completely spontaneously without a prompt or cause, however subtle?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'first cause'. Are you referring to the initial thought in a series of thoughts during a specific period of meditation, or the cause of the first thought in one's entire life, which would have occurred in the womb?

Quote: They come from sights, sounds, tastes, smells and tactile sensations; they come from feeling, memory, thought and consciousness.

In normal daily lives (not in single pointed concentration) there isn't a moment without thought.

There is also no moment without sights, sounds, tastes, smells and tactile sensations; they come from feeling, memory, thought and consciousness.

Whether one is aware or not, thoughts will be triggered.

Quote:

THE WELLSPRING of thought and imagination is called sankhãra khandha. Each thought, each inkling of an idea ripples briefly through the mind and then ceases. In and of themselves, these mental ripples have no specific meaning. They merely flash briefly into awareness and then cease without a trace. Only when saññã khandha takes them up do they become thoughts and ideas with a specific meaning and content. Saññã khandha is the mental aggregate of memory, recognition and interpretation.Saññã takes fragments of thought and interprets and expands them,making assumptions about their significance, and thus turning them into issues.

Sankhãra then perpetuates these issues in the form of incessant, discursive thinking. Saññã, however, isthe principal instigator. As soon as sankhãra flashes up briefly, saññã immediately grasps it and defines its existence as this or that—agitating everything. These two are the mental faculties that cause all the trouble. Together they spin tales—of fortune and of woe—and then interpret them to be the reality of oneself. Relying on memory to identify everything that arises in awareness, saññã defines them and gives them meaning. Sankhãras arise and cease with distinct beginnings and endings, like flashes of lightning or fireflies blinking on and off. When observed closely, saññã khandha is far more subtle than sankhãra khandha. Bursting into awareness, sankhãras are the basic building blocks of thought. Saññã, on the other hand, is not experienced as flashes of thought. When the mind is perfectly still and the khandhas are very quiet, we can clearly feel the manner in which each khandha arises. Saññã will slowly spread out, permeating the citta like ink moving through blotting paper, expanding slowly until it forms a mental picture. Following saññã’s lead, the sankhãras, that are constantly arising, begin to form a picture and create a story around it that will then take on a life of its own. Thoughts about this or that begin with saññã recognizing and interpreting the ripplings of sankhãra, molding them into a recognizable image which sankhãra then continuously elaborates. Both of these mental factors are natural phenomena. They arise spontaneously, and are distinct from the awareness that knows them.

Edited January 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[connda]

Ajahn Chah Subhaddo put this simply enough.

"Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it.

Don't take up anything else. There's no need to think about gaining things. Don't take up anything at all. Simply know the in- breath and the out-breath. The in-breath and the out-breath. Bud on the in-breath; dho on the out-breath. Just stay with the breath in this way until you are aware of the in-breath and aware of the out-breath....aware of the in-breath....aware of the out-breath. Be aware in this way until the mind is peaceful, without irritation, without agitation, merely the breath going out and coming in. Let your mind remain in this state. You don't need a goal yet. It's this state that is the first stage of practice.

If the mind is at ease, if it's at peace then it will be naturally aware. As you keep doing it, the breath diminishes, becomes softer. The body becomes pliable, the mind becomes pliable. It's a natural process. Sitting is comfortable: you're not dull, you don't nod, you're not sleepy. The mind has a natural fluency about whatever it does. It is still. It is at peace. And then when you leave the samādhi, you say to yourself, 'Wow, what was that?' You recall the peace that you've just experienced. And you never forget it.

The thing which follows along with us is called sati, the power of recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness. Whatever we say or do, wherever we go, on almsround or whatever, in eating the meal, washing our almsbowl, then be aware of what it's all about. Be constantly mindful. Follow the mind.

When you're practising walking meditation (cankama), have a walking path, say from one tree to another, about 50 feet in length. Walking cankama is the same as sitting meditation. Focus your awareness: ''Now, I am going to put forth effort. With strong recollection and self-awareness I am going to pacify my mind.'' The object of concentration depends on the person. Find what suits you. Some people spread mettā to all sentient beings and then leading with their right foot, walk at a normal pace, using the mantra 'Buddho' in conjunction with the walking. Continually being aware of that object. If the mind becomes agitated then stop, calm the mind and then resume walking. Constantly self-aware. Aware at the beginning of the path, aware at every stage of the path, the beginning, the middle and the end. Make this knowing continuous.

This is a method, focussing on walking cankama. Walking cankama means walking to and fro. It's not easy. Some people see us walking up and down and think we're crazy. They don't realize that walking cankama gives rise to great wisdom. Walk to and fro. If you're tired then stand and still your mind. Focus on making the breathing comfortable. When it is reasonably comfortable then switch the attention to walking again,

The postures change by themselves. Standing, walking, sitting, lying down. They change. We can't just sit all the time, stand all the time or lie down all the time. We have to spend our time with these different postures, make all four postures beneficial. This is the action. We just keep doing it. It's not easy.

To make it easy to visualise, take this glass and set it down here for two minutes. When the two minutes are up then move it over there for two minutes. Then move it over here for two minutes. Keep doing that. Do it again and again until you start to suffer, until you doubt, until wisdom arises. ''What am I thinking about, lifting a glass backwards and forwards like a madman.'' The mind will think in its habitual way according to the phenomena. It doesn't matter what anyone says. Just keep lifting that glass. Every two minutes, okay - don't daydream, not five minutes. As soon as two minutes are up then move it over here. Focus on that. This is the matter of action.

Looking at the in-breaths and out-breaths is the same. Sit with your right foot resting on your left leg, sit straight, watch the inhalation to its full extent until it completely disappears in the abdomen. When the inhalation is complete then allow the breath out until the lungs are empty. Don't force it. It doesn't matter how long or short or soft the breath is, let it be just right for you. Sit and watch the inhalation and the exhalation, make yourself comfortable with that. Don't allow your mind to get lost. If it gets lost then stop, look to see where it's got to, why it is not following the breath. Go after it and bring it back. Get it to stay with the breath, and, without doubt, one day you will see the reward. Just keep doing it. Do it as if you won't gain anything, as if nothing will happen, as if you don't know who's doing it, but keep doing it anyway. Like rice in the barn. You take it out and sow it in the fields, as if you were throwing it away, sow it throughout the fields, without being interested in it, and yet it sprouts, rice plants grow up, you transplant it and you've got sweet green rice. That's what it's about.

This is the same. Just sit there. Sometimes you might think, ''Why am I watching the breath so intently. Even if I didn't watch it, it would still keep going in and out.''

Well, you'll always finds something to think about. That's a view. It is an expression of the mind. Forget it. Keep trying over and over again and make the mind peaceful.

Once the mind is at peace, the breath will diminish, the body will become relaxed, the mind will become subtle. They will be in a state of balance until it will seem as if there is no breath, but nothing happens to you. When you reach this point, don't panic, don't get up and run out, because you think you've stopped breathing. It just means that your mind is at peace. You don't have to do anything. Just sit there and look at whatever is present.

Sometimes you may wonder, ''Eh, am I breathing?'' This is the same mistake. It is the thinking mind. Whatever happens, allow things to take their natural course, no matter what feeling arises. Know it, look at it. But don't be deluded by it. Keep doing it, keep doing it. Do it often. After the meal, air your robe on a line, and get straight out onto the walking meditation path. Keep thinking 'Buddho, Buddho'. Think it all the time that you're walking. Concentrate on the word 'Buddho' as you walk. Wear the path down, wear it down until it's a trench and it's halfway up your calves, or up to your knees. Just keep walking.

It's not just strolling along in a perfunctory way, thinking about this and that for a length of the path, and then going up into your hut and looking at your sleeping mat, ''How inviting!'' Then laying down and snoring away like a pig. If you do that you won't get anything from the practice at all.

Keep doing it until you're fed up and then see how far that laziness goes. Keep looking until you come to the end of laziness. Whatever it is you experience you have to go all the way through it before you overcome it. It's not as if you can just repeat the word 'peace' to yourself and then as soon as you sit, you expect peace will arise like at the click of a switch, and when it doesn't then you give up, lazy. If that's the case you'll never be peaceful.

It's easy to talk about and hard to do. It's like monks who are thinking of disrobing saying, ''Rice farming doesn't seem so difficult to me. I'd be better off as a rice farmer''. They start farming without knowing about cows or buffaloes, harrows or ploughs, nothing at all. They find out that when you talk about farming it sounds easy, but when you actually try it you get to know exactly what the difficulties are.

Everyone would like to search for peace in that way. Actually, peace does lie right there, but you don't know it yet. You can follow after it, you can talk about it as much as you like, but you won't know what it is.

So, do it. Follow it until you know in pace with the breath, concentrating on the breath using the mantra 'Buddho'. Just that much. Don't let the mind wander off anywhere else. At this time have this knowing. Do this. Study just this much. Just keep doing it, doing it in this way. If you start thinking that nothing is happening, just carry on anyway. Just carry on regardless and you will get to know the breath.

Okay, so give it a try! If you sit in this way and the mind gets the hang of it, the mind will reach an optimum, 'just right' state. When the mind is peaceful the self-awareness arises naturally. Then if you want to sit right through the night, you feel nothing, because the mind is enjoying itself. When you get this far, when you're good at it, then you might find you want to give Dhamma talks to your friends until the cows come home. That's how it goes sometimes.

It's like the time when Por Sang was still a postulant. One night he'd been walking cankama and then began to sit. His mind became lucid and sharp. He wanted to expound the Dhamma. He couldn't stop. I heard the sound of someone teaching over in that bamboo grove, really belting it out. I thought, ''Is that someone giving a Dhamma talk, or is it the sound of someone complaining about something?'' It didn't stop. So I got my flashlight and went over to have a look. I was right. There in the bamboo grove, sitting cross-legged in the light of a lantern, was Por Sang, talking so fast I couldn't keep up.''

So I called out to him, ''Por Sang, have you gone crazy?''

He said, ''I don't know what it is, I just want to talk the Dhamma. I sit down and I've got to talk, I walk and I've got to talk. I've just got to expound the Dhamma all the time. I don't know where it's going to end.''

I thought to myself, ''When people practice the Dhamma there's no limit to the things that can happen.''

So keep doing it, don't stop. Don't follow your moods. Go against the grain. Practise when you feel lazy and practice when you feel diligent. Practice when you're sitting and practice when you're walking. When you lay down, focus on your breathing and tell yourself, ''I will not indulge in the pleasure of laying down.'' Teach your heart in this way. Get up as soon as you awaken, and carry on putting forth effort.

Eating, tell yourself, ''I eat this food, not with craving, but as medicine, to sustain my body for a day and a night, only in order that I may continue my practice.''

When you lay down then teach your mind. When you eat then teach your mind. Maintain that attitude constantly. If you're going to stand up, then be aware of that. If you're going to lie down, then be aware of that. Whatever you do, then be aware. When you lie down, lie on your right side and focus on the breath, using the mantra 'Buddho' until you fall asleep. Then when you wake up it's as if 'Buddho' has been there all the time, it's not been interrupted. For peace to arise, there needs to be mindfulness there all the time. Don't go looking at other people. Don't be interested in other people's affairs; just be interested in your own affairs.

When you do sitting meditation, sit straight; don't lean your head too far back or too far forwards. Keep a balanced 'just-right' posture like a Buddha image. Then your mind will be bright and clear.

Endure for as long as you can before changing your posture. If it hurts, let it hurt. Don't be in a hurry to change your position. Don't think to yourself, ''Oh! It's too much. Take a rest.'' Patiently endure until the pain has reached a peak, then endure some more.

Endure, endure until you can't keep up the mantra 'Buddho'. Then take the point where it hurts as your object. ''Oh! Pain. Pain. Real pain.'' You can make the pain your meditation object rather than Buddho. Focus on it continuously. Keep sitting. When the pain has reached it's limit, see what happens.

The Buddha said that pain arises by itself and disappears by itself. Let it die; don't give up. Sometimes you may break out in a sweat. Big beads, as large as corn kernels rolling down your chest. But when you've passed through painful feeling once, then you will know all about it. Keep doing it. Don't push yourself too much. Just keep steadily practising.

Be aware while you're eating. You chew and swallow. Where does the food go to? Know what foods agree with you and what foods disagree. Try gauging the amount of food. As you eat keep looking and when you think that after another five mouthfuls you'll be full, then stop and drink some water and you will have eaten just the right amount.

Try it. See whether or not you can do it. But that's not the way we usually do it. When we feel full we take another five mouthfuls. That's what the mind tells us. It doesn't know how to teach itself.

The Buddha told us to keep watching as we eat. Stop five mouthfuls before you're full and drink some water and it will be just right. If you sit or walk afterwards, then you don't feel heavy. Your meditation will improve. But we don't want to do it. We're full up and we take another five mouthfuls. That's the way that craving and defilement is, it goes a different way from the teachings of the Buddha. Someone who lacks a genuine wish to train their minds will be unable to do it. Keep watching your mind.

Be vigilant with sleep. Your success will depend on being aware of the skilful means. Sometimes the time you go to sleep may vary some nights you have an early night and other times a late night. But try practising like this: whatever time you go to sleep, just sleep at one stretch. As soon as you wake up, then get up immediately. Don't go back to sleep. Whether you sleep a lot or a little, just sleep at one stretch. Make a resolution that as soon as you wake up, even if you haven't had enough sleep, you will get up, wash your face, and then start to walk cankama or sit meditation. Know how to train yourself in this way. It's not something you can know through listening to someone else. You will know through training yourself, through practice, through doing it. And so I tell you to practice.

This practice of the heart is difficult. When you are doing sitting meditation, then let your mind have only one object. Let it stay with the in-breath and the out-breath and your mind will gradually become calm. If your mind is in turmoil, then it will have many objects. For instance, as soon as you sit, do you think of your home? Some people think of eating Chinese noodles. When you're first ordained you feel hungry, don't you? You want to eat and drink. You think about all kinds of food. Your mind is going crazy. If that's what's going to happen, then let it. But as soon as you overcome it, then it will disappear.

Do it! Have you ever walked cankama? What was it like as you walked? Did your mind wander? If it did, then stop and let it come back. If it wanders off a lot, then don't breathe. Hold your breath until your lungs are about to burst. It will come back by itself. No matter how bad it is, if it's racing around all over the place, then hold your breath. As your lungs are about to burst, your mind will return. You must energize the mind. Training the mind isn't like training animals. The mind is truly hard to train. Don't be easily discouraged. If you hold your breath, you will be unable to think of anything and the mind will run back to you of its own accord.

It's like the water in this bottle. When we tip it out slowly then the water drips out...drip...drip...drip. But when we tip the bottle up farther the water runs out in a continuous stream, not in separate drops as before. Our mindfulness is similar. If we accelerate our efforts, practice in an even, continuous way, the mindfulness will be uninterrupted like a stream of water. No matter whether we are standing, walking, sitting or lying down, that knowledge is uninterrupted, flowing like a stream of water.

Our practice of the heart is like this. After a moment, it's thinking of this and thinking of that. It is agitated and mindfulness is not continuous. But whatever it thinks about, never mind, just keep putting forth effort. It will be like the drops of water that become more frequent until they join up and become a stream. Then our knowledge will be encompassing. Standing, sitting, walking or laying down, whatever you are doing, this knowing will look after you.

Start right now. Give it a try. But don't hurry. If you just sit there watching to see what will happen, then you'll be wasting your time. So be careful. If you try too hard then you won't be successful, but if you don't try at all then you won't be successful either."

Contents: © Wat Nong Pah Pong, 2007 | Last update: March 2008

Edited January 3, 2015 by connda

[connda]

Mindfulness practice and samadhi are not in opposition to each other. Mindfulness cultures the mind to continually go back to its source and subsequently helps and strengthens that process in sitting practice. Sitting practice is needed to gain the extra quietness that will facilitate transcendence of mind leading to temporary samadhi, which is more difficult to achieve with mindfulness practice during activity because there are more distractions. But whatever you do, the goal must be samadhi.

Is Mindfulness practice worthy on its own?

Can one Awaken purely by practicing it?

Are there other benefits other than Awakening?

Slia, Samahdi, Panna.

It's a package deal.

[rockyysdt]

Off-topic posts and replies to those posts have been deleted. This is a serious discussion about mindfulness in Buddhism.

Also if there is anything unclear or doesn't make sense shoot off a question.

Most of us are learning anyway.

Edited January 3, 2015 by camerata
Deleted comments on moderation

[trd]

"The investigation proceeds smoothly, with fluency and skill. This is the nature of genuine wisdom: investigating, contemplating and understanding, but never being distracted or misled by conjecture."

He does not mean this "investigation" is an act of analysis. He is not doing anything. He says there is no distraction from conjecture. This is an important clue to his true meaning. Without conjecture there is only clear seeing, a completely spontaneous outpouring of wisdom without a doer. There is nothing to do whatsoever. There is no seeking of any kind. Wisdom and insight are a total expression of permanent samadhi. The water gushes from the source of the river. You cannot stop it or change it. There is no concern about meaning anymore, but yet meaning still continues to play its part in the relative just for the maintenance of the body.

But the search for meaning is exactly what most practising Buddhists are doing. There is continual study and conjecture about the meaning of scripture as if by somehow gaining a deep understanding of the words this will lead to wisdom and insight. Without samadhi this can never be.

There is widespread practice of taking thoughts with one into Samadhi in order to either gain insight from these, and/or become suffused in these.

One example is the Brahmaviharas (The Four Immeasurables).

Such things as Metta, Karuna, Mudita, & Upekkha.

Practitioners take these thoughts into states of Samadhi to gain insight from them.

They then go on to become suffused in them, and instructed to radiate these out in all directions.

Is this a misplaced practice?

Should we all go into Samadhi empty of anything.

Let me try and dispel the myth that attaining samadhi is difficult. What most people mean I think, is that it is difficult to "sustain". You should not be concerned about this. You will have experienced many of what I call "fleeting" samadhis without paying them any attention. I know you practice meditation on breath. Sometimes there will be awareness of breath together with other thoughts. Sometimes there will be awareness of breath but no other thoughts. Sometimes there will be a thought but no awareness of breath. And sometimes there will be no awareness of breath and no other thoughts. When I say "sometimes" I mean very short time periods, perhaps a fraction of a second to several seconds.

It is this time when there is no awareness of breath and no other thoughts that can be considered as a fleeting samadhi. So samadhi is not difficult. You need to know it is not necessary to practice for years before having tangible results. It is that kind of attitude which causes doubts about whether you are wasting your time.

I cannot comment on the practice you describe. I can only speak of my experience. The idea of "taking thoughts into samadhi" doesn't make sense to me because samadhi is free of thought. It is one pointedness because the mind is just experiencing its own nature, its undisturbed ground state without the fluctuations of thought.

Emptiness is not nothingness. It is both empty and full of all potentialities.

Edited January 3, 2015 by trd

[camerata]

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[Shaunduhpostman]

"Why do many (especially Theravandans) emphasise the importance of Mindfulness (or Awareness) practice in ones daily life, often over Concentration (Samadhi)?"

As a non-Thervandan dharma practitoner, for what it is worth, I'll take a stab at this, (sorry for the violent figure of speech).

My 2-3 years daily 1 hour practice experience with samadhi and the resulting vipassana as opposed to mindfulness and mindfulness practices such as those of Mahayana-Vajrayana- Dzogchen and the states of presence/ one's basic nature/mahamudra/dzogchen is that samadhi as an end in itself has limitations and that that is the reason you want to move on to mindfulness. This limitation of samadhi is also mentioned by numerous respected texts and teachers as well if i recall.Tho It is absolutely essential to mindfulness to start with samadhi as far as I know. Basically with samadhi, you have to be still and sit otherwise it is very difficult not to come out of it and be back to grasping at self/thought and phenomena. With mindfulness, you are working towards being able to sustain that state of non-grasping awareness in all activities.

Dzogchen based techniques are different to Theravadan based mind fullness mainly because it requires someone who has realized that state to point out to you your real nature. Your teacher literally has to show you where to "look" and then thereafter at home or wherever you are, to get into the state, you look again, something like just looking at your face in the mirror, not too much more involved, no 20-30 minutes of sitting before you get into it. Being in your real nature is initially difficult, very subtle even if you do meet a realized Dzogchen practitioner who can point out your real nature, but my sense of it compared with the samadhi-vipassana is that it is a much more resilient enduring state that you can enter much more quickly and easily than samadhi once you get the hang of it.

So, to make a long answer shorter, I have no experience with Theravada traditions but dialog with my Thai wife a lot who has a regular practice going on decades. There seems to be a lot of agreement, at least on a verbal conceptual level between Dzogchen and her practices and philosophies. And that mainly would be that you want to integrate that which you start to get onto with samadhi with your day to day life. Otherwise you are just going to be consigned to your meditation capsule until the time when your session is over and then its back to the boneyard, I guess you might call it. Setting up such a dichotomy -boneyard and samdhi meditation pillow nirvana- is not ultimately going to be very helpful to solving our problem and will lead to grasping at meditation and before you know it you are back to some kind of state of suffering.

All important to Dzogchen is the notion of this state of real nature being an essential tool to liberate all the entanglements that we are all to aware of in day to day life. By being in our real nature whilst thoughts, feelings, situations, attachments, etc arise those entanglements are said to be forever freed from our mind stream never to impose on us again. So then that is key to why we would want to be in the zone when carrying on day to day so that we can be meet those negative conditions and be liberated from them at last. Just sitting in samadhi, as much as you and I love it, you are not going to meet the things you need to be freed from via mindfulness and being in our real nature and it is said that our samadhi practice runs the risk of just becoming another samsaric maximum security prison.

I'm no expert on any of this but I do practice and read and listen to teachers and students on all of this and do my best, its not easy, so just my 2 cents.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Shaunduhpostman

[connda]

I see a couple of things happening here that I often see when individuals want to discuss the characteristics of the meditation experience regardless of what nouns or adjectives or verbs you wish to use to describe it. Words and the concepts behind words are limiting and open to interpretation. The best you can do when explaining the path and experience is to perhaps find an analogy that can explain the phenomena to the point where words then simply fail to take you any further. So inidividuals, especially newbies get wrapped up in phenomena such as states of jhana, supranormal experiences though any of the sense paths, ecstatic states, etc. So you're back to either desiring (a specific state) or being adverse to (a specific state). So once you attain a glimpse of a higher state you desire to go back, but the paradox is you can't get there while in a state of desire; conversely once you attain a glimpse of a higher state you're adverse too, you don't want to go back, but the paradox is you can't cease suffering by pushing it away. I'm speaking of 20 years of trial and error. Been there, done that.

So I try my best to follow my teacher's suggestions as I understand them: Keep it simple. Concentrate on the in and out breath, be aware of phenomena as it manifests but let it go; don't give it too much significance. Concentration leads to insight; you don't need to do anything special other than practice.

How to practice? Go back to my previous post #24: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788626-why-do-many-especially-theravadins-emphasise-the-importance-of-mindfulness-awareness-practice/?p=8889033

Edited January 4, 2015 by connda