Confrontation at Work

[fey]

actually in the west this is the proper way to do things. you either goto your co-workers supervisor and the supervisor speaks to your co-worker or has a meeting with you all where you can then speak directly to your co-worker critically at an employee, group or private meeting according to the nature of the problem.

confronting a co-worker directly and telling them how to do their jobs can be done if you have a solid relationship, but in most cases it's not a good idea.

i'm not sure why they keep reporting to the direct supervisor's boss though. usually you bring problems to the next higher level and don't try to 'climb the ladder' so to speak. by doing so you are undercutting the immediate supervisors authority implying they are part of the problem or are not handling the issue properly. could also be an attempt to get on the higher bosses radar for promotion or other reasons.

especially in thailand going over the supervisors head would be a 'loss of face' and damaging to your career. could be why they are not correcting the problem.

Edited January 6, 2015 by fey

[ATF]

Beetlejuice, on 06 Jan 2015 - 19:57, said:

ATF, on 06 Jan 2015 - 10:44, said:

It called being two faced not peculiar to Thais.

I assume May is female? She probably wants a good <deleted> or at least told that's she's the most beautiful girl in the office.

Total crapola.

Thais are no more 2 faced than anyone else. Just another Thai bashing post. Give people like you half a chance and you can`t resist getting one in.

BJ that's exactly what I said please re-read the post.

[mrtoad]

Take May out for a 99 Baht breakfast with extra sausage

[wow64]

OP tell you friend to go jump off a balcony and figure his own crap out.

[konying]

I been working with thai in thailand for over 10 years and blaming someone else for ones screw up is pretty normal , especially when that someone is not present.

Thought process that boss was to speak to other person does not even cross their mind .

Chances are May screwed up and keeps on screwing, but puts a blame on to " foreigner" thinking it will never get down to him yet saves her ass.

Confront May and do it with witnesses to make sure she does not point fingers at other people or does not make up another story.

I had staff point fingers at someone else, while that someone else was just meters away . Last thing they thought I would call that person over.

[elVagabundo]

Holy cow... was hoping for one or two response but 30+ . Thanks everyone for your input and sorry for taking a while to respond myself!

It called being two faced not peculiar to Thais.

A good reminder. It's easy to forget simple truths like this when one is a foreigner in a new place.

In your culture this would probably seem cowardly, but this is not your culture. Thais, never wishing to offend, either to save your face, or because they are two faced schemers, almost always express their grievances through intermediaries. Sometimes this helps the situation but often it does not. I would encourage your friend to take the information that his supervisors say "May" said and confront him/her with it in as benign a setting as can be managed. Do not be confrontational but seek understanding. Find common ground. Good luck to you and/or your friend.

MaybeMay has never complained , maybe the boss is jealous that May might have taken a shine to you and he is making up a story to keep you away from May.

LOL. The thought had never occurred to me. I suppose this could be though, since my friend has never heard the truth straight from May.

At the end of the day your friend is the only farang in a Thai office, he will have to make certain changes if he wants to fit in.

Craighj

The last point is well put.

[elVagabundo]

Cont'd...

I've recently been in this position. It's tough if your boss is in say HK, singapore or nyc and expects results and you aren't allowed to openly confront people even though you have be brought in to sort out a mess. My advice is to get them into a room and talk about the issues quietly. Unfortunately yelling sets off all this behind the scenes gossiping that you described. In my biz if they can't handle being yelled at then they shouldn't be in this job...however it seems it doesn't apply to thai.

After talking it over with my friend , it turns out this situation is quite similar. Their real boss is currently traveling around SE Asia.

You cant fix that which you dont know is broken.

Ask "May" what the problem is and why she is telling others and not you. How can you learn or progress, or fix an issue that you are not made aware of.

That's silly western logic. It's useless here, most of the time.

May sees him as the problem and/or stumbling block. He won't learn anything by confronting her directly. She'll deny everything.

He should talk to May's friends, or co-workers, to find out what she really wants. And also watch what May does, not what she says.

He'll be surprised when he finds out the truth. My guess would be jealousy, an accidental slight, or a loss of face.

Hrmm, to confront or not to confront..

....

Jeez, imagine putting up with this crapola, tell your friend to grow a pair and tell them to stick their poxy job up their jacksy.

How desperate are some people to stay here for a pittance and put up with such petulant behaviour?

Year/multi-year contracts my friend.

[elVagabundo]

Cont'd :/ (wouldn't allow me to post with all the quotes together).

This thread doesn't make any sense. No supervisor will tell an employee about a complaint unless he knows the nature of the complaint. Was the guy sexually harassing the co-worker? Is he late all the time? Does he prevent her from doing her work? Does he have body odor? It could be a number of reasons. But if the supervisor wants the situation rectified, he HAS to tell the guy the nature of the problem.

Where are you OP? Or is it just another troll thread....again.

not a troll... just slightly incompetent .

actually in the west this is the proper way to do things. you either goto your co-workers supervisor and the supervisor speaks to your co-worker or has a meeting with you all where you can then speak directly to your co-worker critically at an employee, group or private meeting according to the nature of the problem.

confronting a co-worker directly and telling them how to do their jobs can be done if you have a solid relationship, but in most cases it's not a good idea.

i'm not sure why they keep reporting to the direct supervisor's boss though. usually you bring problems to the next higher level and don't try to 'climb the ladder' so to speak. by doing so you are undercutting the immediate supervisors authority implying they are part of the problem or are not handling the issue properly. could also be an attempt to get on the higher bosses radar for promotion or other reasons.

especially in thailand going over the supervisors head would be a 'loss of face' and damaging to your career. could be why they are not correcting the problem.

This last point is key (see below).

Alrighty... This is my third attempt at a response (kept getting auto-logged out and the auto save didn't work ). I'll try to keep this concise.

I originally posted trying to get some insight regarding Thai relationship norms in the work place and definitely received that. I purposefully had left out identifiable details, but after all y'all's help I guess I owe you at least a few.

I tracked my friend down after work and found out additional info (and that I had bungled their story)

1) May IS their direct supervisor.
2) The person who has been talking with my friend regarding the issue is the co-worker.

The real thorn in the relationship, as stated in Fey's post, seems to be that they went over May's head.

My friend apparently has a great relationship with the boss and, due to the general incompetence of May, has been going directly to the boss with questions regarding their work. The co-worker that has been talking with my friend in regard to the conflict told them that they shouldn't be talking to the boss (despite their good relationship) and strongly suggested that they should instead ask May the question, who will then ask person B, who will then ask the boss, who will then tell person B the answer, who tells May, who then answers my friend.

I'm still not quite sure as to what to tell my friend. Confront or not confront? Just deal with it?
I guess one really just has to make the best of a situation though, especially when one is the odd man out. Can either go around grumbling and hating for the rest of the contract, or push through it and see if ya can't have a decent time and make some nice memories while you're at it.

In terms of concrete advice that might allow my friend to begin to smooth things over and treat others like human beings, I think Mr. Toad as the right idea .

Alrighty that's all for tonight.. I think in the future I'll just take a page from wow64 lol.

OP tell you friend to go jump off a balcony and figure his own crap out.

Thanks again everyone!

[bangkokjulia]

Tell your friend to take May out for a 99 baht breakfast-they solve everything!

[hhgz]

I'm going with the obvious, "your friend should apologize to May for what he said or did". If he doesn't realize that's the solution, it's no wonder he's over his head.

[Tonto21]

OP..... This reminds me of how a lot.....not all Thais deal with issues they have with others.

Told to me by my wife when trying to explain how Thais confront others.

Guy comes home from hard day at work, he goes into his backyard and steps in dog poo, (not the first time and he doesn't have a dog) he knows who the dog is, he knows who the owner of the dog is as well, it's his next door neighbor's.

Well, he's pissed, the neighbor's dog is always shitting in his yard.

So, he's going to go and have it out with his neighbor, he cleans himself up, goes around and starts talking, he and his neighbor move to the balcony where they have a few beers and chat for hours, after 2 hours they say goodby, with lots of smiling and talk about getting together at the weekend for a BBQ........................ The word dog has been avoided all night. let alone the mention of the deed by said dog. The guy goes home fuming on the inside that the neighbor did not pick up on why he had come around to see him, even if the neighbor had known why he was there it would have been bad form to say anything as it might cause embarrassment..... Go figure!

Is it any wonder why there are so many murders in Thailand! These situations go on for years, then 'SNAP' a few too many lao khaws and it comes out...... through the medium of a machete, Ouch! This is also why some Thais are such bad drivers they don't have to give a toss about others as they are 'faceless' in there vehicle............

You I'm afraid fall between the cracks when it comes to Thais and ''face saving' you are not a Thai, there for Thais do not need to follow etiquette when it come to you...... you will get It for the slightest pofar you make against against Thai sensibilities and culture, some Thai will milk this situation.

I would be very careful how you deal with this, if you are not bothered about keeping your job there, have it out with her....... Trust me it won't end well for you, you will think you have sorted it out, only to find out later you are a uncouth western thug....Apparently!

What ever you do....... Good luck.

Just a footnote mate. my wife is a level headed modern Thai woman, (for want of better words) she has thai cultural traits she can not explain or avoid. One sticks in my head and always makes me smile when I think about it. I had to use my horn on the pickup some time ago to warn a pedestrian, (trying to kill himself) he was about to run out in front of my pickup, I 'peeped' the horn, he saw me stopped........Job done......Right? Wrong.....I got grief for being rude and beeping my horn at someone....Apparently it would have been far more polite to just run him over.......Again, go figure. Welcome to Thailand.

[Berkshire]

I tracked my friend down after work and found out additional info (and that I had bungled their story)

1) May IS their direct supervisor.

2) The person who has been talking with my friend regarding the issue is the co-worker.

The real thorn in the relationship, as stated in Fey's post, seems to be that they went over May's head.

My friend apparently has a great relationship with the boss and, due to the general incompetence of May, has been going directly to the boss with questions regarding their work. The co-worker that has been talking with my friend in regard to the conflict told them that they shouldn't be talking to the boss (despite their good relationship) and strongly suggested that they should instead ask May the question, who will then ask person B, who will then ask the boss, who will then tell person B the answer, who tells May, who then answers my friend.

I'm still not quite sure as to what to tell my friend. Confront or not confront? Just deal with it?

I guess one really just has to make the best of a situation though, especially when one is the odd man out. Can either go around grumbling and hating for the rest of the contract, or push through it and see if ya can't have a decent time and make some nice memories while you're at it.

In terms of concrete advice that might allow my friend to begin to smooth things over and treat others like human beings, I think Mr. Toad as the right idea .

Alrighty that's all for tonight.. I think in the future I'll just take a page from wow64 lol.

Thanks again everyone!

Well this really changes things. I can see how this situation can be a problem in most any culture. Even in the USA. Put yourself in this May person's predicament. Say I was the Department Head, working directly for the VP, and had an employee. And this employee was buddies with the VP. That's bad enough in itself, but if said employee were to keep going over my head to the VP, I'd be plenty upset. Am I understanding this situation? This "general incompetence of May" is rather subjective, so not sure what that means exactly. If she really is incompetent, then it's the big boss' fault for putting her in a position for which she's not qualified.

[rgs2001uk]

I tracked my friend down after work and found out additional info (and that I had bungled their story)

1) May IS their direct supervisor.

2) The person who has been talking with my friend regarding the issue is the co-worker.

The real thorn in the relationship, as stated in Fey's post, seems to be that they went over May's head.

My friend apparently has a great relationship with the boss and, due to the general incompetence of May, has been going directly to the boss with questions regarding their work. The co-worker that has been talking with my friend in regard to the conflict told them that they shouldn't be talking to the boss (despite their good relationship) and strongly suggested that they should instead ask May the question, who will then ask person B, who will then ask the boss, who will then tell person B the answer, who tells May, who then answers my friend.

I'm still not quite sure as to what to tell my friend. Confront or not confront? Just deal with it?

I guess one really just has to make the best of a situation though, especially when one is the odd man out. Can either go around grumbling and hating for the rest of the contract, or push through it and see if ya can't have a decent time and make some nice memories while you're at it.

In terms of concrete advice that might allow my friend to begin to smooth things over and treat others like human beings, I think Mr. Toad as the right idea .

Alrighty that's all for tonight.. I think in the future I'll just take a page from wow64 lol.

Thanks again everyone!

Well this really changes things. I can see how this situation can be a problem in most any culture. Even in the USA. Put yourself in this May person's predicament. Say I was the Department Head, working directly for the VP, and had an employee. And this employee was buddies with the VP. That's bad enough in itself, but if said employee were to keep going over my head to the VP, I'd be plenty upset. Am I understanding this situation? This "general incompetence of May" is rather subjective, so not sure what that means exactly. If she really is incompetent, then it's the big boss' fault for putting her in a position for which she's not qualified.

BS, you have been here as long as I have and know full well competence is not a prerequisite to holding down a job or position.

Its a part of the world where the patronage system, nepotism and cronyism all play a part.

The big boss may well have had no choice or say in appointing Little Miss Incompetence, he may have been put in a position where he felt obligated to employ her, he may be aware of her incompetence but is powerless to do anything about it.

Little Miss Incompetence may well have more power than the boss due to family connections.

[Loptr]

I've recently been in this position. It's tough if your boss is in say HK, singapore or nyc and expects results and you aren't allowed to openly confront people even though you have be brought in to sort out a mess. My advice is to get them into a room and talk about the issues quietly. Unfortunately yelling sets off all this behind the scenes gossiping that you described. In my biz if they can't handle being yelled at then they shouldn't be in this job...however it seems it doesn't apply to thai.

OB

Been there, done that... It's a lose, lose situation when you have been given the responsibility to turn things around, but not given the authority to do what is necessary...

[Berkshire]

I tracked my friend down after work and found out additional info (and that I had bungled their story)

1) May IS their direct supervisor.

2) The person who has been talking with my friend regarding the issue is the co-worker.

The real thorn in the relationship, as stated in Fey's post, seems to be that they went over May's head.

My friend apparently has a great relationship with the boss and, due to the general incompetence of May, has been going directly to the boss with questions regarding their work. The co-worker that has been talking with my friend in regard to the conflict told them that they shouldn't be talking to the boss (despite their good relationship) and strongly suggested that they should instead ask May the question, who will then ask person B, who will then ask the boss, who will then tell person B the answer, who tells May, who then answers my friend.

I'm still not quite sure as to what to tell my friend. Confront or not confront? Just deal with it?

I guess one really just has to make the best of a situation though, especially when one is the odd man out. Can either go around grumbling and hating for the rest of the contract, or push through it and see if ya can't have a decent time and make some nice memories while you're at it.

In terms of concrete advice that might allow my friend to begin to smooth things over and treat others like human beings, I think Mr. Toad as the right idea .

Alrighty that's all for tonight.. I think in the future I'll just take a page from wow64 lol.

Thanks again everyone!

Well this really changes things. I can see how this situation can be a problem in most any culture. Even in the USA. Put yourself in this May person's predicament. Say I was the Department Head, working directly for the VP, and had an employee. And this employee was buddies with the VP. That's bad enough in itself, but if said employee were to keep going over my head to the VP, I'd be plenty upset. Am I understanding this situation? This "general incompetence of May" is rather subjective, so not sure what that means exactly. If she really is incompetent, then it's the big boss' fault for putting her in a position for which she's not qualified.

BS, you have been here as long as I have and know full well competence is not a prerequisite to holding down a job or position.

Its a part of the world where the patronage system, nepotism and cronyism all play a part.

The big boss may well have had no choice or say in appointing Little Miss Incompetence, he may have been put in a position where he felt obligated to employ her, he may be aware of her incompetence but is powerless to do anything about it.

Little Miss Incompetence may well have more power than the boss due to family connections.

You know darn well that your guess is as good as mine. You have no idea what's going on in this situation. So refrain from pretending that you do.

[rgs2001uk]

I tracked my friend down after work and found out additional info (and that I had bungled their story)

1) May IS their direct supervisor.

2) The person who has been talking with my friend regarding the issue is the co-worker.

The real thorn in the relationship, as stated in Fey's post, seems to be that they went over May's head.

My friend apparently has a great relationship with the boss and, due to the general incompetence of May, has been going directly to the boss with questions regarding their work. The co-worker that has been talking with my friend in regard to the conflict told them that they shouldn't be talking to the boss (despite their good relationship) and strongly suggested that they should instead ask May the question, who will then ask person B, who will then ask the boss, who will then tell person B the answer, who tells May, who then answers my friend.

I'm still not quite sure as to what to tell my friend. Confront or not confront? Just deal with it?

I guess one really just has to make the best of a situation though, especially when one is the odd man out. Can either go around grumbling and hating for the rest of the contract, or push through it and see if ya can't have a decent time and make some nice memories while you're at it.

In terms of concrete advice that might allow my friend to begin to smooth things over and treat others like human beings, I think Mr. Toad as the right idea .

Alrighty that's all for tonight.. I think in the future I'll just take a page from wow64 lol.

Thanks again everyone!

Well this really changes things. I can see how this situation can be a problem in most any culture. Even in the USA. Put yourself in this May person's predicament. Say I was the Department Head, working directly for the VP, and had an employee. And this employee was buddies with the VP. That's bad enough in itself, but if said employee were to keep going over my head to the VP, I'd be plenty upset. Am I understanding this situation? This "general incompetence of May" is rather subjective, so not sure what that means exactly. If she really is incompetent, then it's the big boss' fault for putting her in a position for which she's not qualified.

BS, you have been here as long as I have and know full well competence is not a prerequisite to holding down a job or position.

Its a part of the world where the patronage system, nepotism and cronyism all play a part.

The big boss may well have had no choice or say in appointing Little Miss Incompetence, he may have been put in a position where he felt obligated to employ her, he may be aware of her incompetence but is powerless to do anything about it.

Little Miss Incompetence may well have more power than the boss due to family connections.

You know darn well that your guess is as good as mine. You have no idea what's going on in this situation. So refrain from pretending that you do.

Please feel free to point out anything in my post you feel may be wrong.

Until the OP gets back to us and gives a detailed account of whats going on, NONE of us know whats going on, and from the sound of it, the OP aint exactly experienced in this part of the world.

He should be aware he aint in Kansas now, different countries different cultures.

[Tomtomtom69]

OP..... This reminds me of how a lot.....not all Thais deal with issues they have with others.

Told to me by my wife when trying to explain how Thais confront others.

Guy comes home from hard day at work, he goes into his backyard and steps in dog poo, (not the first time and he doesn't have a dog) he knows who the dog is, he knows who the owner of the dog is as well, it's his next door neighbor's.

Well, he's pissed, the neighbor's dog is always shitting in his yard.

So, he's going to go and have it out with his neighbor, he cleans himself up, goes around and starts talking, he and his neighbor move to the balcony where they have a few beers and chat for hours, after 2 hours they say goodby, with lots of smiling and talk about getting together at the weekend for a BBQ........................ The word dog has been avoided all night. let alone the mention of the deed by said dog. The guy goes home fuming on the inside that the neighbor did not pick up on why he had come around to see him, even if the neighbor had known why he was there it would have been bad form to say anything as it might cause embarrassment..... Go figure!

Is it any wonder why there are so many murders in Thailand! These situations go on for years, then 'SNAP' a few too many lao khaws and it comes out...... through the medium of a machete, Ouch! This is also why some Thais are such bad drivers they don't have to give a toss about others as they are 'faceless' in there vehicle............

You I'm afraid fall between the cracks when it comes to Thais and ''face saving' you are not a Thai, there for Thais do not need to follow etiquette when it come to you...... you will get It for the slightest pofar you make against against Thai sensibilities and culture, some Thai will milk this situation.

I would be very careful how you deal with this, if you are not bothered about keeping your job there, have it out with her....... Trust me it won't end well for you, you will think you have sorted it out, only to find out later you are a uncouth western thug....Apparently!

What ever you do....... Good luck.

Just a footnote mate. my wife is a level headed modern Thai woman, (for want of better words) she has thai cultural traits she can not explain or avoid. One sticks in my head and always makes me smile when I think about it. I had to use my horn on the pickup some time ago to warn a pedestrian, (trying to kill himself) he was about to run out in front of my pickup, I 'peeped' the horn, he saw me stopped........Job done......Right? Wrong.....I got grief for being rude and beeping my horn at someone....Apparently it would have been far more polite to just run him over.......Again, go figure. Welcome to Thailand.

Great post and lots of accurate information about working with and/or dealing with Thais and how they do things here.

But I don't find anything wrong with honking my horn loudly at some suicidal baffoon who decides to jump in front of my car. I also find most Thais in a similar situation wouldn't hesitate to do the same. Honking is otherwise fairly rare though.

I wonder how Thais would cope driving in China (although currently they aren't allowed to drive to China except on an expensive pre-arranged tour with guide) given how widespread horn honking is over there, people like your wife would have a heart attack!

[bkkjames]

Maybe your friend should stop staring at her ass and get back to work!

[Berkshire]

Well this really changes things. I can see how this situation can be a problem in most any culture. Even in the USA. Put yourself in this May person's predicament. Say I was the Department Head, working directly for the VP, and had an employee. And this employee was buddies with the VP. That's bad enough in itself, but if said employee were to keep going over my head to the VP, I'd be plenty upset. Am I understanding this situation? This "general incompetence of May" is rather subjective, so not sure what that means exactly. If she really is incompetent, then it's the big boss' fault for putting her in a position for which she's not qualified.

BS, you have been here as long as I have and know full well competence is not a prerequisite to holding down a job or position.

Its a part of the world where the patronage system, nepotism and cronyism all play a part.

The big boss may well have had no choice or say in appointing Little Miss Incompetence, he may have been put in a position where he felt obligated to employ her, he may be aware of her incompetence but is powerless to do anything about it.

Little Miss Incompetence may well have more power than the boss due to family connections.

You know darn well that your guess is as good as mine. You have no idea what's going on in this situation. So refrain from pretending that you do.

Please feel free to point out anything in my post you feel may be wrong.

Until the OP gets back to us and gives a detailed account of whats going on, NONE of us know whats going on, and from the sound of it, the OP aint exactly experienced in this part of the world.

He should be aware he aint in Kansas now, different countries different cultures.

I've worked with some disgruntled farangs in Thailand. Their take on their work situation is typically not consistent with reality.

[mrtoad]

Both Berkshire and RGS make valid points. I've found that there are problems with staff wherever they come from, nothing ever really changes with big staff teams, there will always be some conflicts. Some foreign staff behaviours are certainly not always appropriate, and wouldn't be back home either, but some think they have a special dispensation for being a prat. The same goes for local workers to.

[garrya]

This is not a farang - Thai case. My Thai wife and her friend in Bangkok were in exactly the same situation. I asked them why this happens and they say that this is the way how Thais deal with each other. Once they fall out the backstabbing starts.