Thailand asks New Zealand to clarify status of Thai exiles

[gomangosteen]

^ you/we/I don't know what information they were presented with

In the past i spent 2 yrs (voluntary) mentoring 2 people from Sri Lanka and Bangladesh who had come to Wellington, NZ through the refugee quota programme. Through this I got me meet many other refugees. Never encountered any behaviour like this man is reported (and there has been little but hearsay) apart from the foolishness of waving someone else's passport (on his own Facebook page)

Don't let one 'apparent' poor decision by UNHCR cloud judgment on the other 7-800 refugees every year who go on to become New Zealanders.

[tbthailand]

Confirmed, gomangosteen. To be the holder of a NZ passport, he would have to be a NZ citizen, and I don't see where he has claimed that. So, why are he and his g/f posing with NZ passports if they are not the legitimate holders of them? Is this for propaganda purposes? To rub salt into Thai wounds? If so, then he has shown disrespect to his hosts by including them in his propaganda and by carrying out political activities on NZ territory. He has, in such a situation, compromised his legitimacy as a refugee. If Immigration NZ decide to nullify his status and order him to leave the country, he cannot expect much sympathy.

I can't speak to the details of this situation and NZ, but in general, a passport and citizenship are not (exactly) the same thing. A simple example would be a child of foreign parents born in an EU country - the child would have a passport from that country but would not be a citizen until - potentially - some point in the future.

In the case of refugees, since refugees still have a right to free movement and since that requires a passport, it does not seem unreasonable that a country might issue a passport for that purpose without (necessarily) granting citizenship.

[nidieunimaitre]

Briggsy, on 07 Jan 2015 - 16:44, said:

If the Thais were really serious, then they would start extradition proceedings which would fail.

These announcements are for the domestic audience. It sits very well with coup-backing members of the public, Democrat supporters and more importantly it threatens anyone who is politically opposed to the junta to shut up and keep a low profile or you will be stuck outside the country or in jail.

The generals making these comments know these exiles are not coming back under this regime.

As you said before, "it's in their make up".

[Leung Falang]

Still no word from Wellington. That will be an acid test for a country to give refuge to a long-term political activist. This guy is not - as has been pointed out already -- just a victim. He has created his own situation with full awareness of what he was doing. For any western country to allow such a person to seek refuge from the consequences of his actions makes a mockery of the whole asylum system. But I suppose they can always quote the precedent of the USA allowing known IRA activists in. The lack of reciprocal agreements didn't stop USA just going in and getting whoever they wanted, without charges, legal representation or trial. Maybe Thailand could take a leaf out of that book

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Article 14.

• (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
• (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

West African court in Mauritania sentenced a man to death for insulting Islam: The man, Mohamed Cheikh Ould Mkhaitir, 28, was arrested a year ago for writing an article that was interpreted by some as being critical of the Prophet Muhammad and saying that Mauritania allows a discriminatory caste system, an extremely delicate subject in a country with deep social and racial divisions.

Should New Zealand or any civilized country refuse asylum to this man? I think not, but the law in his country deemed his actions a "crime".

I cannot imagine anything worse than thought police/opinion police, anywhere. Politicians get away with this in some places by claiming "inciting violence".

[Gsxrnz]

Everyone is speculating.

Non quota Refugees (having gained approved refugee status from the department of Immigration) do not get a NZ passport immediately, nor do they get or are granted citizenship immediately. At best it might take 12 months minimum. They are granted a temporary residents status until this is upgraded to a permanent residency status or citizenship after meeting the necessary (lengthy) criteria.

Refugees accepted under the quota system are treated a little differently. They receive permanent residency status upon entry. However, this is still not citizenship. http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/general/generalinformation/media/refugeefactsheet.htm

Refugees can apply for either of two documents from the department of Internal Affairs. A Certificate of Identity, or a Refugee Travel Document. Neither of which look like a NZ passport, because they are not passports. The former may be issued to non-refugee residents. The latter is issued to refugees.

The Cert of Identity can be used locally or internationally to prove identity and can be used to travel internationally.

The Refugee Travel Document allows a refugee to travel internationally to any country that will allow him/her to enter. If they leave NZ they must first apply for a Returning Resident's Visa or a Re-entry Permit as decided by the Department of Immigration.

http://www.passports.govt.nz/Certificate-of-Identity-or-Refugee-Travel-Document---form

I strongly doubt they are holding Kiwi passports.

[jpinx]

I totally agree with your comments about "thought police" or similar. That would be similar to places like The Gambia - I've lived there and know how that goes.

I am up for correction by anyone who was present at any of the incidents this guy perpetrated, but I believe his actions were far more than political dissent. As I understand it he was openly organising a violent response. This would make it a tricky one for the UNHCR or anyone else to determine the guys status. What crimes was he actually charged with? "Creating an affray" is a crime in many countires.

Thanks for giving the detail on the refugee route. Either way -- it is indeed very doubtful that he has a NZ passport after only a month or so.

I am still of the opinion that if he was inciting violence and whipping up a mob to try to start an armed mini-revolution, then his status as a refugee would be highly arguable -- especially since he has apparently continued these activities from NZ. Surely the UNHCR has some way of determining when a "politician" crosses the boundary between "active opposition" and "creating a violent revolution"?

[thailiketoo]

I am up for correction by anyone who was present at any of the incidents this guy perpetrated, but I believe his actions were far more than political dissent. As I understand it he was openly organising a violent response. This would make it a tricky one for the UNHCR or anyone else to determine the guys status. What crimes was he actually charged with? "Creating an affray" is a crime in many countires.

You can't be corrected and the person correcting stay within the posting guidelines. So I'll just say you are wrong and leave it at that. The information is on the net if you want to find it.

[jpinx]

I am up for correction by anyone who was present at any of the incidents this guy perpetrated, but I believe his actions were far more than political dissent. As I understand it he was openly organising a violent response. This would make it a tricky one for the UNHCR or anyone else to determine the guys status. What crimes was he actually charged with? "Creating an affray" is a crime in many countires.

You can't be corrected and the person correcting stay within the posting guidelines. So I'll just say you are wrong and leave it at that. The information is on the net if you want to find it.

Fair enough, but I am highly skeptical about biased reporting

To be honest -- this thread is about this specific case -- my ramblings are more to do with the philosophy of "When does political opposition turn into criminal behaviour". That is the dilemna facing the UNHCR and I believe they are not doing very well -- too many western/christian standards being applied......

[lewy67]

Interesting editorial today in the New Zealand Herald about this topic.

[thailiketoo]

Interesting editorial today in the New Zealand Herald about this topic.

A very good editorial; three cheers for NZ.

[jpinx]

Interesting editorial today in the New Zealand Herald about this topic.

A very good editorial; three cheers for NZ.

The editorial was rubbish -- as many comments pointed out.. Many of the comments are right on the money. Goodness knows what it cost to get his refugee status. Isn't he wanted for crimes other than lese-majeste?

[thailiketoo]

Interesting editorial today in the New Zealand Herald about this topic.

A very good editorial; three cheers for NZ.

The editorial was rubbish -- as many comments pointed out.. Many of the comments are right on the money. Goodness knows what it cost to get his refugee status. Isn't he wanted for crimes other than lese-majeste?

Only in the same way you are wanted for making up porkies, eh mate? It strikes me that if you wanted to actually have a discussion instead of simple slander you might mention what you thought was rubbish in the article.

Edited January 12, 2015 by thailiketoo

[jpinx]

Interesting editorial today in the New Zealand Herald about this topic.

A very good editorial; three cheers for NZ.

The editorial was rubbish -- as many comments pointed out.. Many of the comments are right on the money. Goodness knows what it cost to get his refugee status. Isn't he wanted for crimes other than lese-majeste?

Only in the same way you are wanted for making up porkies, eh mate? It strikes me that if you wanted to actually have a discussion instead of simple slander you might mention what you thought was rubbish in the article.

Here's the editorial I am referring to....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11384953

.........judged purely and simply on the validity of his refugee status. The bare bones suggest his case is a compelling one....

They suggest that NZ has to make this decision with nothing more than "bare bones"?

NZ can see that the maximum penalty applicable is 15 years -- no threat to his life -- just that he has to play according to the laws of the country he lives in.

The editorial fails to outline what the actions were which caused an arrest warrant to be issued. Presumably they haven't bothered to actually do any investigating or interviewing of their own. Sheep could make a better report

From the comments ....

...................It's unbelievable how from commenting the case about this 1 person you then not only commented on the Thailand's political division but also took side on which side is right & wrong. Even most Thai people don't try to claim to be experts in this and make that judgement as it's not that black & white..........

[greenchair]

We no import the sheep, you know. Send Thai people back or we stop to eat the gaot.

Few thai eat sheep. I would say thailands importation would be a spit in the ocean.

They export sheep to feed the masses. Not people to feed the egos. ?

[thailiketoo]

A very good editorial; three cheers for NZ.

The editorial was rubbish -- as many comments pointed out.. Many of the comments are right on the money. Goodness knows what it cost to get his refugee status. Isn't he wanted for crimes other than lese-majeste?

Only in the same way you are wanted for making up porkies, eh mate? It strikes me that if you wanted to actually have a discussion instead of simple slander you might mention what you thought was rubbish in the article.

Here's the editorial I am referring to....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11384953

.........judged purely and simply on the validity of his refugee status. The bare bones suggest his case is a compelling one....

They suggest that NZ has to make this decision with nothing more than "bare bones"?

Bare bones in this usage means; even looking at the smallest portion the case has merit. The actual quote, "The bare bones suggest his case is a compelling one." The article goes on to say, "He left Thailand when a military junta overthrew that administration, and was resettled under New Zealand's quota refugee system." And, "Mr Ekaphop is, in fact, a victim of the ongoing friction of a sharply divided nation. This will not end until democracy takes root."

[jpinx]

..........

Your interpretation of the expression "bare bones" is suspect at the least. It usually refers to the skeleton, the supposed structure without any details or "smallest portions" as you call them. Until someone in NZ gets off their parochial backside and actually does some proper investigating of this guys activities there is no credibility to any of these writings -- despite the UNHCR. They've made plenty of dubious decisions in the past.

Edited January 12, 2015 by jpinx

[thailiketoo]

Sometimes people are blinded by the intensity of their own beliefs

It's a good thing New Zealand is not blinded and pays attention to their laws and have granted Mr Ekapop refugee status. Glad we finally agree on something.

Edited January 12, 2015 by thailiketoo

[Bucko]

They got their citizenship and passports very quickly. Took 2 years to get my wife out to Australia and she has to wait 4 yrs for citizenship and a passport and she has Aussie children.

before I comment--I would like to see a close up of the passports main page---anyone can hold up the front cover of one belonging to N.Z friends

Edited January 12, 2015 by Bucko

[chotthee]

They got their citizenship and passports very quickly. Took 2 years to get my wife out to Australia and she has to wait 4 yrs for citizenship and a passport and she has Aussie children.

before I comment--I would like to see a close up of the passports main page---anyone can hold up the front cover of one belonging to N.Z friends

I think it is fake too.

[metisdead]

Off topic obfuscation/deflection posts and bickering posts and replies have been removed.

[Fatty123]

Lese Majeste has been illegal in Thailand since forever and is a well-known law to all Thais and a lot of foreigners. You might not like the law, but you must abide by it. Many laws are not popular and are in place for reasons not always agreeable to everyone, but that's just the way things are. New Zealand are setting a very bad example by not respecting a countrys right to create and apply its own laws.

North Korea also has laws in place. Thing is, some nations are not living in the dark ages.

[jpinx]

Lese Majeste has been illegal in Thailand since forever and is a well-known law to all Thais and a lot of foreigners. You might not like the law, but you must abide by it. Many laws are not popular and are in place for reasons not always agreeable to everyone, but that's just the way things are. New Zealand are setting a very bad example by not respecting a countrys right to create and apply its own laws.

North Korea also has laws in place. Thing is, some nations are not living in the dark ages.

As far as I can tell from the postings in here, the only objection to the Lese Majeste laws in Thailand is that it is a restriction on "freedom of speech". Can any one name a country which does not have some laws in place which restrict what people say about some topic that is deemed "sensitive" in that country such as state security, religion, whatever......

P.S. -- Please don't quote the US's long abused constitutional rights

[lvr181]

On 1/6/2015 at 6:44 PM, jpinx said:

I have no need to know what he did or said, but laws are applied/interpreted by the courts, usually based on precedent - not the current government nor the police/army. The guy would have been wise to have looked at what happened to the previous person who did whatever this trick was.

New Zealand might be demonstrating their own brand of international ineptitude. Whilst they might not agree with Thailand's laws concerning lese majeste they probably don't agree with a bunch of laws in other countries but there's no fuss being made.

It's distinctly possible that the situation is not as is currently being reported. Let's wait and see what the Wellington folks reply to Bangkok with............

And the reply is