Well managed Condo

[Mousehound]

With the lengthy list of CM Condo management tussles over the last few years, can those that are reasonably happy with the way things are give me a heads up. I am now seriously looking at buying in. I have to say I wanted to rent but the way my government handles assets testing for pension purposes I would be better off buying.

Drop me a PM if you don't want to invoke the cries of the mob!

Ta muchly

[bangmai]

What's your budget and size requirement?

[Mousehound]

What's your budget and size requirement?

50sq m min

4,000000 Bht

[WorkingTourist]

50sq m min

4,000000 Bht

What about location/area, age of building (new/old/renovated), view (mountain/city/river/small windows), etc.

There are a lot of buildings and new projects, so I would recommend you figure out what area you want to be in, then check out the buildings there, and don’t exclude buildings just because it’s over your planned budget: You can get something really nice if you’re willing to spend a bit more than your current <= 80,000 THB per sqm.

Once you have found a building you like then you can look into whether or not there are issues with it. It should be possible to get minutes from the last annual general meeting, the buildings budget, etc. — and if you can’t get this, then probably take that as a sign of it not being the best place to buy.

Edit: As for budget, if you’re not interested in being near the Old City / Night Bazaar / Nimmanhaemin then ignore my comment above about budget.

Edited January 8, 2015 by WorkingTourist

[AnotherOneAmerican]

s/h in CM, you can easily get 80m2 for 1M.

The way condos are going at the moment, probably best not to spend too much.

Edited January 8, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Happyman108]

A 5 seater car can cost only 100,000 baht in Chiangmai..............question is whether a new car or a old 10 or 20 years car. This same question apply to a so call condo of 80 sqm for 1M is a brand new condo in prime location or a 20 years old building without facility (which I prefer to call it apartment insead of condo) hiding in one of the small soi ??

[bangmai]

s/h in CM, you can easily get 80m2 for 1M.

The way condos are going at the moment, probably best not to spend too much.

Could you show us one? Prices are relatively flat, compared to the previous large increases, however...a Thai condo will now cost those with Euros, Loonies, or AUD 10% more than 6 months ago....and that number is still increasing. Russians are faring quite a bit worse as their potential Pattaya dream home will cost them double what it would have six months ago.

Edited January 8, 2015 by bangmai

[Mousehound]

Thanks for the info people. I have a pretty good idea of what is about for the monies, and the pros and cons of old buildings v new. I am also familiar with some of the better known condos - in that I know where they are, but have only been in a few of them. The OP requests info on those buildings that are managed satisfactorily and I am keen to avoid buildings embroiled in "management condo wars". I now have two replies (thanks for those) to my original question and will start to look at what is available there.

[bangmai]

checked my numbers....Euros will now pay 13.5% more (since 6 months ago), Brits and Oz 12.5%, and Canadians 9% more. Remember, if something goes down in value 20%; you need a 25% increase to be even.

Oh, and I see that AnotherAmerican was referring to Single homes as in "s/h." I agree...but that is an entirely different animal, and as a rule of thumb condos cost at least double psm. I suggest the OP figure out where his favorite place to hang out/party is and find a place simply in the vicinity...you really don't want to be on top of the action, and I think that is how it is for some of the Nimman locations...it's great to be close though, but not necessary to be next door.

Edited January 8, 2015 by bangmai

[AnotherOneAmerican]

checked my numbers....Euros will now pay 13.5% more (since 6 months ago), Brits and Oz 12.5%, and Canadians 9% more. Remember, if something goes down in value 20%; you need a 25% increase to be even.

Oh, and I see that AnotherAmerican was referring to Single homes as in "s/h." I agree...but that is an entirely different animal, and as a rule of thumb condos cost at least double psm. I suggest the OP figure out where his favorite place to hang out/party is and find a place simply in the vicinity...you really don't want to be on top of the action, and I think that is how it is for some of the Nimman locations...it's great to be close though, but not necessary to be next door.

s/h secondhand

The condo (large off-white) just off the superhighway between Tesco superstore and the river ping.

Two room units around 900k (2x35M2 = 70m2)

Corner units around 1.1M (2x40M2 = 80m2)

[No1]

So you are asking for a well-managed condo? IMHO, this is difficult to find. In the first years, while the builder is still in, the management is usually somehow imposed by the builders. Once the builder is out, has sold most of the units and lost interest, the new management will find it difficult to get sufficient funding for maintenance. I would also like to know if anyone knows of a really well-managed condo building.

[mascarabertha]

twin peaks on chang klan

[WorkingTourist]

So you are asking for a well-managed condo? IMHO, this is difficult to find. In the first years, while the builder is still in, the management is usually somehow imposed by the builders. Once the builder is out, has sold most of the units and lost interest, the new management will find it difficult to get sufficient funding for maintenance. I would also like to know if anyone knows of a really well-managed condo building.

I’ve heard two different people say Peaks Garden is very well managed but I have not stayed there.

I am currently renting at The Shine which is well managed, but it’s a new development with unsold penthouse units, so maybe it’s the influence of the developer?

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Day-to-day management would be cleaning, taking care of the trash, and minor upkeep like changing light bulbs, lubricate hinges, etc.

Since management works for the owners, should they be incapable of performing their duties, would the board not act? And should the board fail to act, would it not be a subject for the annual general meeting?

I wouldn’t be surprised to find apathy among many owners, which could lead to a management team left to their own devices with no quality control, but it shouldn’t require many owners to care, to remedy such situation. Am I wrong?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Condo management are there to make money for themselves, nothing else matters.

Thailand is a corrupt country with no rule of law.

They can steal as much as they like.

Often there will be someone with a majority vote for the entire condo.

(proxy votes, multiple condos, etc.)

They choose the management, not you.

Edited January 11, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[neilrob]

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Condo management are there to make money for themselves, nothing else matters.

Thailand is a corrupt country with no rule of law.

They can steal as much as they like.

Often there will be someone with a majority vote for the entire condo.

(proxy votes, multiple condos, etc.)

They choose the management, not you.

What a ridiculous generalization!

[WorkingTourist]

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Condo management are there to make money for themselves, nothing else matters.

Thailand is a corrupt country with no rule of law.

They can steal as much as they like.

Often there will be someone with a majority vote for the entire condo.

(proxy votes, multiple condos, etc.)

They choose the management, not you.

The majority of the owners pick management, not an individual, yes.

So you are saying that often the majority of owners are hiring people that want to rip them off and let the building rot? That sounds weird.

Despite corruption, I would expect at least some common sense from the co-owners.

I think a more likely problem is with buildings where general maintenance fees are not paid for a lot of the units, possibly because they are empty (owned by a creditor via foreclosures, and the creditor may have little interest in “running the building” as they are not renting out their units).

This is why I advised earlier to get the financial report for the building you plan to buy in, it should make it clear if there are such problems.

Are there problems with management in buildings that hasn’t gone through 30 years of neglect with half the units empty? If so, can you give specific examples of the problems? I would like to be wiser on this (as said above, I’m a potential condo owner). Just saying that “Thailand is corrupt” and that management is only interested in making money is not helpful and you need to elaborate.

[mesquite]

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Condo management are there to make money for themselves, nothing else matters.

Thailand is a corrupt country with no rule of law.

They can steal as much as they like.

Often there will be someone with a majority vote for the entire condo.

(proxy votes, multiple condos, etc.)

They choose the management, not you.

The majority of the owners pick management, not an individual, yes.

So you are saying that often the majority of owners are hiring people that want to rip them off and let the building rot? That sounds weird.

Despite corruption, I would expect at least some common sense from the co-owners.

I think a more likely problem is with buildings where general maintenance fees are not paid for a lot of the units, possibly because they are empty (owned by a creditor via foreclosures, and the creditor may have little interest in “running the building” as they are not renting out their units).

This is why I advised earlier to get the financial report for the building you plan to buy in, it should make it clear if there are such problems.

Are there problems with management in buildings that hasn’t gone through 30 years of neglect with half the units empty? If so, can you give specific examples of the problems? I would like to be wiser on this (as said above, I’m a potential condo owner). Just saying that “Thailand is corrupt” and that management is only interested in making money is not helpful and you need to elaborate.

Your suggestion of get a financial report for the building is spot on for a condo in the US. I wouldn't trust a report I received for a condo here in CM, not to mention it would (should?) be written in Thai which would require a translation.

[WorkingTourist]

Your suggestion of get a financial report for the building is spot on for a condo in the US. I wouldn't trust a report I received for a condo here in CM, not to mention it would (should?) be written in Thai which would require a translation.

Getting it translated shouldn’t be a problem.

Why wouldn’t you trust it? Why would they misrepresent their numbers? Even in Thailand, there are standards for financial reporting and fraud is punishable and easily discovered from an audit.

What I get from this thread is that majority of buildings in CM are run by criminals, if this is actually true, there must be some actual examples, I have yet to come by any. The closest thing I have seen is the issues in Riverside where a board member allegedly sold his condo to the condominium to make it into a fitness room, or some such. And then there are the 30 year old neglected buildings, but the mismanagement of these come from lack of funds (due to foreclosures), and some of them seems to be on the right course.

[beau thai]

So you are asking for a well-managed condo? IMHO, this is difficult to find. In the first years, while the builder is still in, the management is usually somehow imposed by the builders. Once the builder is out, has sold most of the units and lost interest, the new management will find it difficult to get sufficient funding for maintenance. I would also like to know if anyone knows of a really well-managed condo building.

I’ve heard two different people say Peaks Garden is very well managed but I have not stayed there.

I am currently renting at The Shine which is well managed, but it’s a new development with unsold penthouse units, so maybe it’s the influence of the developer?

As a potential condo owner in CM I am curious as to what the problem is with management (that you seem to imply all buildings suffer from)?

Day-to-day management would be cleaning, taking care of the trash, and minor upkeep like changing light bulbs, lubricate hinges, etc.

Since management works for the owners, should they be incapable of performing their duties, would the board not act? And should the board fail to act, would it not be a subject for the annual general meeting?

I wouldn’t be surprised to find apathy among many owners, which could lead to a management team left to their own devices with no quality control, but it shouldn’t require many owners to care, to remedy such situation. Am I wrong?

Day to day management, as I am sure you realise, is a bit more tha cleaning, trash and light bulbs! There are probably lifts to maintain/replace; maybe swimming pool problems, along with water and electricity- to say nothing of collecting (overdue) rents, and foreclosing (or trying to) persistent non -payers.

Apathy is a major problem and some condos have more than 500 owner so it takes a lot of effort to get the needed votes to effect change/investment. It is often impossible to even contact the owners of empty/rented units.

Your views in your following posts about standards of financial reporting are, shall I say, charitable. In farangland checking financial reports brings to mind lies, damn lied and statistics. The sub prime mortgage debacle in the US owed much to so called Rating Agencies, 'rating' mortage portfolios without looking at them. Financial reports can and do mislead- even auditors. ( recessions regularly find what auditors have missed!!)

If you want to go that route try to get the last 3 years accountsm AND the AGM/EGM minutes. Then maybe hang around a few lobbies and talk to some owners.

Strange as it may seem some condos do not have management committees, Agm's or accounts. Is that ilegal- probably. Welcome to thailand.

I am not saying dont invest, rather, invest carefully and do your research. Dont take everything you read or hear at face value.

But there are still some great buys around- I would say use a good agent- they do exist, but many thai visa members will scoff at that. But for a newbie they can help a lot,and are free to the buyer, so long as you dont overpay!

[AnotherOneAmerican]

....... and foreclosing (or trying to) persistent non -payers.

Can't foreclose for maint non-payment, can only stop the transfer to a new owner.

One of the really big agents in CM is crooked as they come.

A bit of a google search may find them, but not from any posts within Thailand as that would break the local defamation laws and be removed.

No post speaking bad about any individual or company in Thailand is allowed, so how can you find an honest one?

Edited January 11, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[WorkingTourist]

Day-to-day management would be cleaning, taking care of the trash, and minor upkeep like changing light bulbs, lubricate hinges, etc.

Day to day management, as I am sure you realise, is a bit more tha cleaning, trash and light bulbs! There are probably lifts to maintain/replace; maybe swimming pool problems,

I didn’t feel the need to mention lifts because there are strict regulations about these, and normally you subscribe to a service/care package for your lifts, not something you let your management team handle.

along with water and electricity- to say nothing of collecting (overdue) rents, and foreclosing (or trying to) persistent non -payers.

Only maintenance fee needs to be collected by management. The buildings I have looked at all require a sinking fund of one year. This should allow the management team to turn off water/electricity for owners who do not pay, and start using their sinking fund to cover the missing payments.

Granted, if the condo is vacant, the owner won’t care about missing water/electricity, but as someone else pointed out, he would not be able to transfer ownership until back payments have been done.

So yes, this could be a problem, but probably mostly in buildings with a lot of foreclosed units.

Apathy is a major problem and some condos have more than 500 owner so it takes a lot of effort to get the needed votes to effect change/investment. It is often impossible to even contact the owners of empty/rented units.

Your views in your following posts about standards of financial reporting are, shall I say, charitable. In farangland checking financial reports brings to mind lies, damn lied and statistics. The sub prime mortgage debacle in the US owed much to so called Rating Agencies, 'rating' mortage portfolios without looking at them. Financial reports can and do mislead- even auditors. ( recessions regularly find what auditors have missed!!)

A financial report for a building should be fairly straightforward reading. Does the income match square meters? Is money set aside to future renovation? Are management salaries within reason? etc.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

It would be against the law to turn off water and electricity.

(unless occupant failed to pay the water and electricity bills)

It's also against the law to block access to their residence.

Edited January 11, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[WorkingTourist]

No post speaking bad about any individual or company in Thailand is allowed, so how can you find an honest one?

Any person making a statement in good faith by way of fair comment on any person or thing subjected to public criticism shall not be guilty of defamation. Moreover, if defendants can prove that a statement is true, they wont be subjected to punishment for said statement.

So let us inject some data into this thread rather than make generalizations about untrustworthy financial reports, conspiring co-owners, and management teams out to rip off the owners!

I still dont have a single example of this stuff actually happening, yet I know there are bad apples in my own country, so surely it happens in CM as well, but at what scale? Same as in farangland?

Edited January 11, 2015 by WorkingTourist

[AnotherOneAmerican]

No post speaking bad about any individual or company in Thailand is allowed, so how can you find an honest one?

Any person making a statement in good faith by way of [/size]fair comment on any person or thing subjected to public criticism shall not be guilty of defamation. Moreover, if defendants can prove that a statement is true, they wont be subjected to punishment for said statement[/size]

So let us inject some data into this thread rather than make generalizations about untrustworthy financial reports, conspiring co-owners, and management teams out to rip off the owners!

I still dont have a single example of this stuff actually happening, yet I know there are bad apples in my own country, so surely it happens in CM as well, but at what scale? Same as in farangland?

I have no idea where you got that quote from, if it's Thai law, link to the Thai language documents.

Then PM the link to the owner of Thai Visa so he can change the posting rules.

[WorkingTourist]

It would be against the law to turn off water and electricity.

(unless occupant failed to pay the water and electricity bills)

It's also against the law to block access to their residence.

You just have to be creative: problem with supply, need fixing, but no money to fix it, because owner has not paid for maintenance

Seriously though, what options exist for non-paying owners? Payment seems to be stipulated in section 18 of the condominium act, so I assume there is some authority where one can report the issue, and perhaps they have the ability to block access to the unit?

[jbaldwin]

In my view the most important element in getting a well run condo is the Committee. Some of the posts about how a management might act are entirely true if the management is not subject to effective control and supervision by the Committee.

I live in a 144 unit condo in Pattaya. The condo is 12 years old, it was first managed by the developer then by 2 "professional" management companies none of whom did an acceptable job. The condo is now self managed with the Building Manager reporting directly to the Committee. It had been a long process of improvement. We have been able to increase cash balances from virtually nothing when the developer left to nearly 12 million baht today - which is almost 3 years common fee income and this was done without increase fees. We give a 10% early payment discount to any owner paying 2015 fees by 30 December 2014. Of the 144 units, all fees for 2013 and all previous years have been received, 1 units owes 2014 fees and 6 units are still to pay 2015 fees

[neilrob]

I can speak from personal experience about Nakornping Condo off Huay Gaew. We have audited financial accounts, in both Thai and English available to owners. These are backed by bank records showing real money in the bank. Minutes of Committee meetings are emailed to owners every month. The members of the committee are certainly not in it for the money---they are unpaid. There are meetings of the owners at least once a year for owners to vote and provide input. The level of significantly overdue maintenance fees is low, because we clamp down hard on it, including cutting the water supply to any condo which is seriously overdue (as we are allowed to do by law).

[NancyL]

I think both Jbaldwin and Neilrob raise an important point that seems to be overlooked by the previous posters who seem to regard the purchase of a condo as nothing more than an investment -- much like deciding which bank has the best rate on a term deposit.

Ultimately someone is going to live in the condo unit -- either the owner or a tenant and most people want to live in a building that is well-run and well-located.

In Chiang Mai, many of the older buildings are extremely well-located and have gotten over the angst of early years that plague new developments -- all the stories reported here of developers' unfulfilled promises, etc. In an older building, a new buyer can look at the recent history of the committee and management and know what they're buying. It's not just empty promises.

I'd encourage the OP to look at run-down, fixer-upper units in one of the well-situated older, buildings, especially if the purpose is to generate rental income. With a little investment in renovation, he could have a nice income generator. He should ask how long units sit without tenants.

There are more and more expat couples coming into Chiang Mai for retirement who are looking for something more than a 40 sq meter studio. There is a real lack of true one-bedroom units or reasonably priced two-bedroom rentals located close to the central city. I'm no expert (I think neilrob is in a better position to know), but it's my impression these unit don't sit without tenants for very long and they're rented to older couples to take care of the units, too.

[beau thai]

To working tourist: Your confidence in the 'strict regulations' governing lift maintenance may be informed by the poor girl who died today when the lift cable snapped.

I have been stuck in a lift in a well known building here for 45 minutes. Impossible for staff to manually open the doors as the contracted maintenance engineer had accidentally take the emergency key with him on his last routine visit and was 45 minutes across town. I recall it got pretty hot in there. Oh, and the lift intercom didnt work. And when he arrived he didnt use the 'special key' but an ordinary screwdriver!

Good luck with your quest but dont make too many assumptions about being protected by the law.

[WorkingTourist]

To working tourist: Your confidence in the 'strict regulations' governing lift maintenance may be informed by the poor girl who died today when the lift cable snapped.

That’s tragic, but my point was simply that lift maintenance is normally outsourced to a third party in response to your suggestion that it was the job of the management team.

Do you have a link to more details about the accident?

I have been stuck in a lift in a well known building here for 45 minutes. Impossible for staff to manually open the doors as the contracted maintenance engineer had accidentally take the emergency key with him on his last routine visit and was 45 minutes across town. I recall it got pretty hot in there. Oh, and the lift intercom didnt work. And when he arrived he didnt use the 'special key' but an ordinary screwdriver!

Good luck with your quest but dont make too many assumptions about being protected by the law.

Getting stuck in an elevator also happens back home, though there the elevator should dial up the central each morning, and if it doesn’t get a signal, it will refuse to go, so that part should rarely happen back home. Don’t know if the elevators do that here, though coincidentally KONE, the company responsible for servicing the elevators in The Shine (where I am currently staying) is also the company we use back home.

Can you PM me the name of the company responsible for maintaining the elevator you got stuck in? There should be a certificate in the elevator which also has an expiration date.