12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[Mosha]

Speculation they may have turned back to Paris.

[Kitsune]

Radical Islam has already won, everyone is running scared, from newspapers to governments. At some point unless we actually stand up for what we believe in, Europe WILL become an islamic state in 30 years time, and that will just be the beginning.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a very moderate Muslim in Penang 25yrs ago. He said quite bluntly " you Europeans are far to soft on Islam, in approximately 30 yrs time you will allow Muslims fanatics to take over your countries" OK his time frame is a bit out, but he was right.

99% of French Muslims condemn the attack

it's only the 1% which causes trouble

Edited January 8, 2015 by Kitsune

[neverdie]

Speculation they may have turned back to Paris.

I hope they are taken out on the way back, real hard.

[Mosha]

You still don't get it?

Charb had been the target of terrorist attack previously.

He knew he was at risk

But he believed in freedom of speech and carried on the provocation.

That's why he was killed

It was a conscious CHOICE

What do you mean I don't get it?

I know exactly what Charb said. It was his choice. I support him. I am as outraged by the meaningless murder as anyone else should be

As I said I don't see the point in getting involved in your stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims"

its full of fail!

We should not have to tip toe around their thin skin.

I totally agree Mosha, but revenge isn't going to happen on the cover-page of some rag!

Don't you see that this just drags us in their bullsheet?

I lived in a town that provided 3 of the London bombers. All of them went to same mosque, we now know mosques in the town were collecting money for IS. I'm pig sick to the back teeth at what they have done to my old home town. Multi culture suggest a mix of cultures, not swapping one for another. My home in Thailand is more multicultural than my home town in the UK

[metisdead]

Some inappropriate images have been removed, don't re-post again.

[nontabury]

Yea, be careful there, H1. You don't want people to think you're not a "serious discussant," do you?

You have something to say on the deaths of these artists? Or do you too just use this incident to push your ideology? Wanna make a serious point or just play in the school yard?

I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday?

No way can you compare us immegrants here ,the same as you cannot compare Thai immegrants in say Britain ,there really are so few of us and we especially jump through hoops to stay ,like anything its ok in moderation ,but if all of a sudden millions of Christians from the west arrived in Thailand demanding that you adopt our laws ,there would be an outcry of hatred towards us i am sure just like there is in the west against Muslims ,we have been so tolerent but i fear that tide is rapidly turning.

If you doubt Farangs are a remarkable minority in Thailand feel free to come to Pattaya and count heads.

Thanks for sharing this information with us, Personnely I din't know that Pattaya equals Thailand.

[MrTee]

So it appears some free speech in the form of satire is OK, but not all of it - thanks Mods.

[ggold]

And actually the quote about being 'anti-immigrant' is also complete BS!

Personally, I'm only anti-immigrant when their culture, as with medieval-like Islam, is plainly incompatible with western culture. This point of view is being proven correct by numerous recent events perpetrated by muslims.

This means I'm against the Islamification of Europe.

In your eyes, that makes me racist and a bigot.

https://www.change.org/p/u-s-house-of-representatives-ban-the-religious-status-of-islam-in-america-and-close-the-jihad-training-camps-for-good?tk=gXutf5d-hx0JBaKWNGuKypZER7FVvfPeAnfHYklPC0U&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=petition_message_notice

Ok, being an internet forum, I can only take you at face value and on the basis of what you post. You say that you are not anti-immigrant but are anti-Islam. Very well, I will stop calling you anti-immigrant. However the bluntness of the way you express your position creates some doubt in me on this. I have seen you apply your position to non-whites in the US in other threads.

I too object to the ideology of islam and its inconsistency with western liberalism and humanism. I also object to other religions and am atheist. I try, however, to avoid stereotyping any person who may hold a belief or have some ethnicity or some gender identification with which I am uncomfortable or disagree.

I have signed many petitions on change.org. I do not agree with the petition you quote. I would sign a petition that called for the removal of tax exempt status of all religious and affiliated bodies including the scientologists and similar cults in the US.

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

I would totally agree with you but, What is the situation where those you are being tolerant to, refuse to be tolerant to you, and you're institutions, Laws and practices?

We set example and open dialogue so with time,they will learn.

Charb met the people who wanted to kill them before.

He told them : "Instead of trying to kill me because I make fun of you in my newspaper, why don't you create YOUR own paper and male fun of US?"

RIP Charb

And if they don't want to learn?

Do you really think that people who want to either convert or kill those who do not believe in their doctrine will ever be converted to liberal views of freedom. To even think that these people can be turned away from violence when their bible tells them that violence is the way, is naive or putting your head in the sand.probably both.

I kindly suggest you convert to their beliefs it may be the only way you will be safe?

[neverdie]

I lived in a town that provided 3 of the London bombers. All of them went to same mosque, we now know mosques in the town were collecting money for IS. I'm pig sick to the back teeth at what they have done to my old home town. Multi culture suggest a mix of cultures, not swapping one for another. My home in Thailand is more multicultural than my home town in the UK

The folk in your home town need to rise up, approach their representatives and shake the living day lights out of them. The time to act was yesterday and the days before that.

Edited January 8, 2015 by neverdie

[Thai at Heart]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

I'm glad you are not taking to arms. I won't be either ..

I just do not see the point of playing a stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims."

You dont get it do you.

Anyone or anything is open to free ridicule under specific rules in a free civilised society. Muslims are no more deserving of being immune to ridicule than anyone.

[Kitsune]

Liberation newspaper has gathered 500.000 Euros and will host the remaining of charlie hebdo team so that Charlie will be printed out next week at ONE MILLION

CHARLIE IS NOT DEAD !

Edited January 8, 2015 by Kitsune

[Mosha]

I lived in a town that provided 3 of the London bombers. All of them went to same mosque, we now know mosques in the town were collecting money for IS. I'm pig sick to the back teeth at what they have done to my old home town. Multi culture suggest a mix of cultures, not swapping one for another. My home in Thailand is more multicultural than my home town in the UK

The folk in your home town need to rise up, approach their representatives and shake the living day lights out of them. The time to act was yesterday and the days before that.

Guess who provides most of the councillors? Guess who runs the planning committee. New house extension no. Convert a building to a mosque, no problem. Planning applications are available on line. I'm not making it up.

[Kitsune]

Refusing to post what Charlie's team died for is approving the terrorist attack

[ggold]

Ok, being an internet forum, I can only take you at face value and on the basis of what you post. You say that you are not anti-immigrant but are anti-Islam. Very well, I will stop calling you anti-immigrant. However the bluntness of the way you express your position creates some doubt in me on this. I have seen you apply your position to non-whites in the US in other threads.

I too object to the ideology of islam and its inconsistency with western liberalism and humanism. I also object to other religions and am atheist. I try, however, to avoid stereotyping any person who may hold a belief or have some ethnicity or some gender identification with which I am uncomfortable or disagree.

I have signed many petitions on change.org. I do not agree with the petition you quote. I would sign a petition that called for the removal of tax exempt status of all religious and affiliated bodies including the scientologists and similar cults in the US.

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

I would totally agree with you but, What is the situation where those you are being tolerant to, refuse to be tolerant to you, and you're institutions, Laws and practices?

There are plenty of options. Most of them take hard work. You can engage with them so they understand your point of view. If their intolerance results in criminal activity, you arrest, charge, try and convict them on a non discriminatory basis. You engage their children who have to fit in with others at school and become bi-national. this is what happens to all immigrant communities. The integration and acceptance of West Indian immigration to the UK post WWII required active government intervention and programs. Same as the integration of immigrants to Australia post WWII and post Vietnam war and now post Iraq.

I would start by treating that person with respect and respecting their heritage and experience. You can then have the expectation of respect in return or work on engagement until it is achieved. I have worked as a public official. I have had to engage people who turn my stomach or hated everything I stood for. If you set achievable and clear objectives, it is possible. But you need the support of good institutions. I cannot be more specific because some of the examples are truly stomach turning and easily taken out of context.

It is all very liberal and will undoubtedly turn the stomachs of the belligerent sort. But it has been shown to work. Carrots and Sticks. Worked in the past and will with the Muslims.

The Charlie Habro cartoons are provocative. Some people argue that they caused this action. Many mainstream news agencies refuse to print them. I agree that they are provocative but believe that the artists have every right to express their opinion. For people to live according to our beliefs in a western liberal democracy, they have to accept that even though they may not like the content of the cartoon or of the speech. If they cannot, then they should not live in such places. I see a distinction between expressions of free speech and political thought through satirical cartoons and things like religious clothing or food practices.

The only problem is that these people do not want to integrate with western liberal societies. They want you to integrate into their 7th century way of society and beliefs.

I really don't think your carrot and stick will work, they will give back the stick ten fold, and eat your carrots at the same time!

[Opl]

Inside a train ( U.K)

[metisdead]

Off-topic, threatening, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Please stay on the topic of the thread. That means addressing the issues presented in the post, not in making comments to or about other posters. Doing so is off-topic and your post will be removed and you could face a suspension.

You have every right to express your opinion about the topic. You may disagree, but it must be done in a civil manner.

[Kitsune]

Ok, being an internet forum, I can only take you at face value and on the basis of what you post. You say that you are not anti-immigrant but are anti-Islam. Very well, I will stop calling you anti-immigrant. However the bluntness of the way you express your position creates some doubt in me on this. I have seen you apply your position to non-whites in the US in other threads.

I too object to the ideology of islam and its inconsistency with western liberalism and humanism. I also object to other religions and am atheist. I try, however, to avoid stereotyping any person who may hold a belief or have some ethnicity or some gender identification with which I am uncomfortable or disagree.

I have signed many petitions on change.org. I do not agree with the petition you quote. I would sign a petition that called for the removal of tax exempt status of all religious and affiliated bodies including the scientologists and similar cults in the US.

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

I would totally agree with you but, What is the situation where those you are being tolerant to, refuse to be tolerant to you, and you're institutions, Laws and practices?

There are plenty of options. Most of them take hard work. You can engage with them so they understand your point of view. If their intolerance results in criminal activity, you arrest, charge, try and convict them on a non discriminatory basis. You engage their children who have to fit in with others at school and become bi-national. this is what happens to all immigrant communities. The integration and acceptance of West Indian immigration to the UK post WWII required active government intervention and programs. Same as the integration of immigrants to Australia post WWII and post Vietnam war and now post Iraq.

I would start by treating that person with respect and respecting their heritage and experience. You can then have the expectation of respect in return or work on engagement until it is achieved. I have worked as a public official. I have had to engage people who turn my stomach or hated everything I stood for. If you set achievable and clear objectives, it is possible. But you need the support of good institutions. I cannot be more specific because some of the examples are truly stomach turning and easily taken out of context.

It is all very liberal and will undoubtedly turn the stomachs of the belligerent sort. But it has been shown to work. Carrots and Sticks. Worked in the past and will with the Muslims.

The Charlie Habro cartoons are provocative. Some people argue that they caused this action. Many mainstream news agencies refuse to print them. I agree that they are provocative but believe that the artists have every right to express their opinion. For people to live according to our beliefs in a western liberal democracy, they have to accept that even though they may not like the content of the cartoon or of the speech. If they cannot, then they should not live in such places. I see a distinction between expressions of free speech and political thought through satirical cartoons and things like religious clothing or food practices.

The only problem is that these people do not want to integrate with western liberal societies. They want you to integrate into their 7th century way of society and beliefs.

I really don't think your carrot and stick will work, they will give back the stick ten fold, and eat your carrots at the same time!

What's the alternative?

start a civil war against the 6 millions muslims in France?

[manarak]

There is no God...

Yes there is !

[Jingthing]

Radical Islam has already won, everyone is running scared, from newspapers to governments. At some point unless we actually stand up for what we believe in, Europe WILL become an islamic state in 30 years time, and that will just be the beginning.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a very moderate Muslim in Penang 25yrs ago. He said quite bluntly " you Europeans are far to soft on Islam, in approximately 30 yrs time you will allow Muslims fanatics to take over your countries" OK his time frame is a bit out, but he was right.

99% of French Muslims condemn the attack

it's only the 1% which causes trouble

99 percent. Sorry. That's obviously blatantly false.

[ggold]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

I'm glad you are not taking to arms. I won't be either ..

I just do not see the point of playing a stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims."

Is it winding up the Muslims or the Islamic fundamentalists?

I could suggest that the majority of Muslims want a peaceful life just like you or me! I might also suggest that while they are not overjoyed by the cartoons they don't feel the need to kill the cartoonist. I think those Muslims who celebrate this fascist crime are those that are the fanatics who have no real interest in a western way of life. IMO

[dragonfly94]

What's the alternative?

start a civil war against the 6 millions muslims in France?

No need for a war against Muslims, just one on Islam. No more Mosques, deportation of hate preachers, close all madras 'Schools', they are only brainwashing children anyway. No Sharia courts, label all halal food so we do not have to buy it. Strict enforcing of the no burka laws, forced marriage and genital mutilation of children. Stop as many more Muslims as possible coming to Europe.

[green job]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

I'm glad you are not taking to arms. I won't be either ..

I just do not see the point of playing a stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims."

You dont get it do you.

Anyone or anything is open to free ridicule under specific rules in a free civilised society. Muslims are no more deserving of being immune to ridicule than anyone.

A man with a religion has no brain,,,,,,A man with a brain has no religion Period Grow up world grow up

[Opl]

Artist J.R's tribute to Charlie Hebdo

[MrTee]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

I'm glad you are not taking to arms. I won't be either ..

I just do not see the point of playing a stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims."

Is it winding up the Muslims or the Islamic fundamentalists?

I could suggest that the majority of Muslims want a peaceful life just like you or me! I might also suggest that while they are not overjoyed by the cartoons they don't feel the need to kill the cartoonist. I think those Muslims who celebrate this fascist crime are those that are the fanatics who have no real interest in a western way of life. IMO

So do you think it'll help bring about a peaceful resolution we can all live with?

Personally I think - we'd just be playing in the hands of these evil'doers..

It wont solve anything other a moments gratification for the synaptically challenged amongst us

[Thai at Heart]

What's the alternative?

start a civil war against the 6 millions muslims in France?

Start actively investigating all activitsts, trying them for treason against the state and imprisoning or deporting them back to their countries of origin.

Much like the mess that they got into with the stupid Imam in London and his right to a family life in the UK. He was inciting hatred, and as such is an enemy of the British state and forgives his right to stay active in British society. It took how long and how many appeals to get rid of him?

Then make is a 10 year prison sentence for not reporting to authorities that one knows about extremists in the community. By remaining silent, you are complicit. Now please don't tell me that no one knew about what these 3 guys were up to. Not one person from a mosque? Lock them up and keep locking them up until the muslim part of society understands that living in a liberal country comes with certain obligations to freedom of thought and speech. if they do not wish to comply then they are free to depart anytime at the tax payers expense. if I know my neighbour is having a meeting with a bunch of known criminals next door and they intend to rob a bank and I do nothing, well, I am complicit. The same thing goes for knowing that your brother, father, mother or sister is about to carry out a terrorist attack.

I would also from a British perspective retain the right to remove the right of citizenship given to all immigrants if they subsequently prove themselves to be a danger to society, beyond this, if you come to the UK and abuse our hospitality by pedalling hate and also choose to bring an immigrant wife with you and produce children, sorry, but your family can depart with you and be refused access to public funds. I would put a very simple statement on anyones' ILR request, "have you ever been part of, associated with, or suported any organisation which can be deemed to be a terrorist or extremist organisation under the description of the British government."

Simple lie and automatic deportation.

[Jingthing]

Islam needs to change from the INSIDE. Like Christianity did. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? Have you got a spare 500 years to wait? Anyway, humoring them and acting like there isn't a problem is PART of the problem.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Jingthing

[manarak]

Radical Islam has already won, everyone is running scared, from newspapers to governments. At some point unless we actually stand up for what we believe in, Europe WILL become an islamic state in 30 years time, and that will just be the beginning.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a very moderate Muslim in Penang 25yrs ago. He said quite bluntly " you Europeans are far to soft on Islam, in approximately 30 yrs time you will allow Muslims fanatics to take over your countries" OK his time frame is a bit out, but he was right.

99% of French Muslims condemn the attack

it's only the 1% which causes trouble

99 percent. Sorry. That's obviously blatantly false.

I'm with JT on this, I'd estimate only about 25% fully condemn the attack AND affirm Charlie Hebdo's right to cariture, 50% will say that it's wrong to murder but understandable because of the offense, 20% approve the attck but would not resort to violence themselves and 5% approve.

[Mosha]

One can bet the Je Suis Charles T-shirts are already in production

[micmichd]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

You just confirmed that you are the clueless one here.

Because we all understand why Muslims are offended.

But in Western democracies, being offended does not justify violence.

That's why they have more fights in Western "democracies" than anywhere else.

[MrTee]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu