Decent elephant camp?

[Johpa]

Unfortunately most places are all about exploiting animals for profits. Shame on us.

Actually most of the major camps up north are trying to protect the elephants as without the camps most of the elephants would have nowhere to forage safely. And you need profits to make it all work. Some have the shows and others profess to be "conservation" oriented, but all have the same basic goals of providing care for the elephants and also to make some money for the primary investor.

The Mae Sa camp is but one that has a successful breeding program. I was just there this morning taking a friend to visit. The only "dumbo" in the nursery at the moment is one year and 5 months and is the 5th baby born to the same mother at the camp. The elephant that I use to own has had three baby elephants born at the Mae Sa camp. Poorly cared for elephants and stressed out elephants do not breed well, as can be seen in the failures of the zoo breeding programs in the west.

The only "real deal" is to go to the few national parks, such as Khao Yai, and take your chances of seeing a wild elephant. Now imagine what happens in Khao Yai if you add a few hundred more pachyderms. The result is a call for culling the stock and the species would not survive.

[Johpa]

I think patara is the only one that does not abuse the shit out of the elephants, and visiting there is a life-changing experience according to trip advisor.

You should find other sources for your information other than using the trip advisor oracle.

[junglechef]

Unfortunately most places are all about exploiting animals for profits. Shame on us.

Actually most of the major camps up north are trying to protect the elephants as without the camps most of the elephants would have nowhere to forage safely. And you need profits to make it all work. Some have the shows and others profess to be "conservation" oriented, but all have the same basic goals of providing care for the elephants and also to make some money for the primary investor.

The Mae Sa camp is but one that has a successful breeding program. I was just there this morning taking a friend to visit. The only "dumbo" in the nursery at the moment is one year and 5 months and is the 5th baby born to the same mother at the camp. The elephant that I use to own has had three baby elephants born at the Mae Sa camp. Poorly cared for elephants and stressed out elephants do not breed well, as can be seen in the failures of the zoo breeding programs in the west.

The only "real deal" is to go to the few national parks, such as Khao Yai, and take your chances of seeing a wild elephant. Now imagine what happens in Khao Yai if you add a few hundred more pachyderms. The result is a call for culling the stock and the species would not survive.

I have had a 100% success rate going to three different National Parks where elephants are know to be, some more then once.

I would like to acknowledge that I do understand that this thread is on where to see captive elephants and I have been mainly been posting about seeing them in the wild.

Though this is not what the OP's asked about I believe that if people knew how easily they can be viewed truly free in their natural habitat they might opt for trying.

[FolkGuitar]

Unfortunately most places are all about exploiting animals for profits. Shame on us.

Actually most of the major camps up north are trying to protect the elephants as without the camps most of the elephants would have nowhere to forage safely. And you need profits to make it all work. Some have the shows and others profess to be "conservation" oriented, but all have the same basic goals of providing care for the elephants and also to make some money for the primary investor.

The Mae Sa camp is but one that has a successful breeding program. I was just there this morning taking a friend to visit. The only "dumbo" in the nursery at the moment is one year and 5 months and is the 5th baby born to the same mother at the camp. The elephant that I use to own has had three baby elephants born at the Mae Sa camp. Poorly cared for elephants and stressed out elephants do not breed well, as can be seen in the failures of the zoo breeding programs in the west.

The only "real deal" is to go to the few national parks, such as Khao Yai, and take your chances of seeing a wild elephant. Now imagine what happens in Khao Yai if you add a few hundred more pachyderms. The result is a call for culling the stock and the species would not survive.

I have had a 100% success rate going to three different National Parks where elephants are know to be, some more then once.

I would like to acknowledge that I do understand that this thread is on where to see captive elephants and I have been mainly been posting about seeing them in the wild.

Though this is not what the OP's asked about I believe that if people knew how easily they can be viewed truly free in their natural habitat they might opt for trying.

It's a wonderful experience to see animals in their natural habitat. It's just a shame that Thailand doesn't have enough natural habitat for all its elephants, and there lies the problem. Someone has to feed the elephants. There really are only two choices; feed them or let them die.

The national parks are simply not large enough to sustain all of Thailand's elephant population due to man's encroachment on the natural habitat in his quest to build towns, cities, resorts, roads, etc., etc. so it is up to man to feed the herd or kill it off. Unfortunately, elephants eat a lot. That costs money. One very viable way to raise enough money to feed the herds is with tourist dollars. Having an elephant 'perform' for people is in no way any more exploitative than a human actor performing, a musician performing, or anyone who works for their living.

Anyone who has spent any time at all in the Mae Sa Elephant camp, watching the young animals, you've seen them 'playing.' Young elephants love to play and you can easily see this when they are playing football. There is no question that they are enjoying themselves. Sure, the older ones who've been around for the past 10-15 years are getting bored with the games, just like us old humans no longer have such an interest in playing games these days... or such an interest in working any more, and are waiting to retire. But in the meantime, they've still got to earn a living so they can eat. The better run elephant camp shows are a good way for them to do that, and the more tourist dollars that can be brought in, the better their standard of living can become.

[junglechef]

Never saw an elephant choose to perform, I find it kind of a silly analogy.

Do you have any affiliation with the Mae Sa Elephant Camp? (ok if you do just think it's only forthcoming to disclose)

Do you have any numbers to back your claim that Thailand doesn't have enough natural habitat for all it's elephants?

[FolkGuitar]

Never saw an elephant choose to perform, I find it kind of a silly analogy.

Do you have any affiliation with the Mae Sa Elephant Camp? (ok if you do just think it's only forthcoming to disclose)

Do you have any numbers to back your claim that Thailand doesn't have enough natural habitat for all it's elephants?

Nope, no affiliation with the Mae Sa Elephant Camp what so ever. In fact, I've been banned from the place. I was a professional photographer and they didn't want me shooting pictures of their elephants and selling them to local magazines. They had their own photographers, so I was told that if I came back, I could not bring my camera.

As for elephants 'performing,' perhaps they don't think of it as such. Perhaps they think of it as playing... There is no question that young elephants love to play. Anyone who's spent much time around them will probably agree. As I said, not so much the older elephants, but up to 3-4 years old, elephants have the same personalities as pre-teen humans. Have you seen the show at the Mae Sa Elephant camp? Watched them playing? If not, why not give it a try before forming a hard and fast opinion. You might be surprised. If you find that afterwards you don't agree with me, I'll re-reimburse you the cost of admission.

Regarding numbers... do the math. A 'wild' female Asian elephant requires about 400 square kilometers of free range, a male can require up to 10 times that size. (The African elephant requires a LOT more habitat size.) That's just one elephant. Multiply that by the hundreds and hundreds of elephants currently living in various elephant camps all over north and south Thailand... That's a lot of elephants. Elephants are by nature migratory. They need to keep moving as they devour huge amounts of vegetation in a single day and need to continuously find new sources of 'proper' food. This means a varied diet, not just grass, in order for the elephant to remain healthy. Should it not get its nutritional requirements and get sick... well... elephants are herd animals. This means the entire herd can get sick, Without veterinary care, the entire herd can be wiped out just because one animal wasn't able to meet its nutritional needs.

This sort of thing happened all the time in the US with various animal populations, which is why now every region has its own hunting seasons and figures the number of animals that need to be culled from the herds so as to insure the remaining animals sufficient food supply, insuring a healthier population better able to withstand disease. (THIS is the reason for the various hunting seasons, and the number of animals a hunter is permitted to take. They need to cull the herd size to fit the food supply.) Right now, because of proper herd management, several US states have a higher, healthier animal population than they did 50 years ago. Deer were almost extinct in New England at one point, as cities, roads, and deforestation for logging and farming kept cutting into deer habitat. The winter-kill figures in the mid-50's was incredibly high, as deer weren't healthy enough to withstand the rigors of their region. The birth rate was less than one fawn for each doe. Today, because of proper herd management, the birth rate is up to 2.5 fawns per doe. That's a healthy herd.

While it would be wonderful if we could just free all the elephants currently in the camps, that is just not feasible. We've taken away too much of their natural habitat. The national parks can support limited numbers, but just not all of the available animals. There would be an initial increase in herd size as animals were more free to breed, but that would only exacerbate the problem. And the problem is; the elephants need to eat every day.

Edited January 15, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[junglechef]

I have been there once, felt uncomfortable watching them play football and painting, this is not how elephants naturally "play", this is how they preform after being trained to do so for the purpose of making money. I won't bring guests there and keep my children away from such dog and pony shows too!

Funny that you "perhaps" know what they are thinking. Do you really know so much about elephants more then what they look like they are feeling to being able to tell what they are thinking?

Are you saying each male elephant needs 4000 sq km (not shared)??

Also it sounds like you interpreted my suggestion as people can go see elephants in the wild here as I said they should free the the captive ones for them to see there.

As I said I'm just a tourist when it comes to animals but have you made the effort to go see them in the wild and use your professional photography skills to get some amazing pictures of truly free animals?

Just look at this guy I saw at Kuri Buri, now he looks truly happy!!

[SoiBiker]

Ok. We get it. You've seen elephants in the wild.

But the OP asked about elephant camps. Seeing as tourists are likely to continue to want to go to these places, wouldn't it be better to direct them towards the ones who treat the animals kindly and ethically?

[FolkGuitar]

I have been there once, felt uncomfortable watching them play football and painting, this is not how elephants naturally "play", this is how they preform after being trained to do so for the purpose of making money. I won't bring guests there and keep my children away from such dog and pony shows too!

That's your choice to make. I prefer to contribute to their well-being by providing need cash for food and veterinary care.

Funny that you "perhaps" know what they are thinking. Do you really know so much about elephants more then what they look like they are feeling to being able to tell what they are thinking?

Yes... I do. No special gift. Spend enough time up close and personal with them, and it becomes pretty obvious.

Actually, it surprises me to see you ask this, then post "Just look at this guy I saw at Kuri Buri, now he looks truly happy!! " Seems as if you know too! Of course, he could just be opening his mouth to feed... We all anthropomorphize when we see an animal behave in a certain way, and imagine our own emotions in them.

Also it sounds like you interpreted my suggestion as people can go see elephants in the wild here as I said they should free the the captive ones for them to see there.

No. If I had meant that, I would have said that. What I am saying is that if people are encouraged to stop visiting the elephant camps and shows, then it's the elephants in those shows that suffer, not just the owners. We may not wish to put money in the pockets of these people, but it's these people who are feeding and caring for the elephants. Someone has to feed the elephants.

As I said I'm just a tourist when it comes to animals but have you made the effort to go see them in the wild and use your professional photography skills to get some amazing pictures of truly free animals?

I've seen them. But I can get amazing photographs of elephants locally. As long as the elephants are being properly cared for, they look just as content as the wild ones. Personally, as I said before, I'd rather give my money to people who are feeding and caring for them.

Just mother and daughter... no chains on them... no scars on them... not pacing back and forth or stamping from foot to foot with tension...

just momma and her little one-week old baby, being close. It takes a year of Sundays to get a photo like this in wild. Two years actually, as that's the elephant's gestation period.

Edited January 16, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[junglechef]

Ok. We get it. You've seen elephants in the wild.

But the OP asked about elephant camps. Seeing as tourists are likely to continue to want to go to these places, wouldn't it be better to direct them towards the ones who treat the animals kindly and ethically?

I have acknowledged and explain that.

I have asked if there is any way to know this and didn't get a response. Perhaps I am being helpful to some and keeping the one's selling tickets at bay.

Do you know if there is any independent organization that rates the ethical treatment of these places? Not just visitor's impressions or website of the places as has been offered so far.

Please add any helpful comments if you have any

[SoiBiker]

Ok. We get it. You've seen elephants in the wild.

But the OP asked about elephant camps. Seeing as tourists are likely to continue to want to go to these places, wouldn't it be better to direct them towards the ones who treat the animals kindly and ethically?

I have acknowledged and explain that.

I have asked if there is any way to know this and didn't get a response. Perhaps I am being helpful to some and keeping the one's selling tickets at bay.

Do you know if there is any independent organization that rates the ethical treatment of these places? Not just visitor's impressions or website of the places as has been offered so far.

Please add any helpful comments if you have any

Several people, including myself, have responded with information on camps they've visited themselves and can recommend based on their emphasis on caring for the animals rather than exploiting them.

[junglechef]

FolkGuitar it was a joke as it looks like he is smiling but I would venture to guess that they might be happier not being caged.

So your saying you've seen wild elephants, did you take any pictures?

What about your claim that they need 4000 km per male??

[junglechef]

Ok. We get it. You've seen elephants in the wild.

But the OP asked about elephant camps. Seeing as tourists are likely to continue to want to go to these places, wouldn't it be better to direct them towards the ones who treat the animals kindly and ethically?

I have acknowledged and explain that.

I have asked if there is any way to know this and didn't get a response. Perhaps I am being helpful to some and keeping the one's selling tickets at bay.

Do you know if there is any independent organization that rates the ethical treatment of these places? Not just visitor's impressions or website of the places as has been offered so far.

Please add any helpful comments if you have any

Several people, including myself, have responded with information on camps they've visited themselves and can recommend based on their emphasis on caring for the animals rather than exploiting them.

That is exactly what I said, they are repeating what the sales staff told them and as we all know everyone here is totally forthcoming when it comes to business.

[Johpa]

Yes, it is not natural for elephants to play ball or make silly gesticulations. But neither is it natural for vast swaths of forest land to be denuded and replaced by feed corn at the behest of the CP Group. Does one wish to try to live in this kingdom while boycotting all parts of that corporate octopus?

Elephants in Africa are losing the battle against poaching despite being protected in nature reserves. The outcome in Thailand would be the same, inevitable slow extinction due to losss of genetic diversity within the species as males are poached for ivory quicker than their replacement rate given this ancient mammal's 22 month gestation period.

Disclaimer: I do have indirect connections with the Mae Sa Camp.

[SoiBiker]

Ok. We get it. You've seen elephants in the wild.

But the OP asked about elephant camps. Seeing as tourists are likely to continue to want to go to these places, wouldn't it be better to direct them towards the ones who treat the animals kindly and ethically?

I have acknowledged and explain that.

I have asked if there is any way to know this and didn't get a response. Perhaps I am being helpful to some and keeping the one's selling tickets at bay.

Do you know if there is any independent organization that rates the ethical treatment of these places? Not just visitor's impressions or website of the places as has been offered so far.

Please add any helpful comments if you have any

Several people, including myself, have responded with information on camps they've visited themselves and can recommend based on their emphasis on caring for the animals rather than exploiting them.

That is exactly what I said, they are repeating what the sales staff told them and as we all know everyone here is totally forthcoming when it comes to business.

I'm not repeating what any 'sales staff' told me. I'm recommending a camp I've visited personally more than once, and have seen for myself the way the animals are treated and the camp is run.

[FolkGuitar]

FolkGuitar it was a joke as it looks like he is smiling but I would venture to guess that they might be happier not being caged.

So your saying you've seen wild elephants, did you take any pictures?

What about your claim that they need 4000 km per male??

Generally speaking, Thai elephants in the better run camps are taken home by their mahouts at the end of the day. They aren't caged.

I did take some photographs of the elephants in the wild, but they were too ordinary to bother to keep. Even with a long-range lens they were just 'snapshots' rather than good photographs. The typical Nat Geo photog will take 300-400 images before keeping one, and of the ones kept, perhaps one out of 50 might be magazine worthy.

What about the claim? By the way, it's not 'my' claim. It's the statement by biologist's who study elephants claim. Personally, I figured they lived in condos along the canal road... If you take the time, you can find the same material I did. Sorry that I didn't save the specific pages, but I'm not in a paid debate here. You have the same resources I have.

[Johpa]

Generally speaking, Thai elephants in the better run camps are taken home by their mahouts at the end of the day. They aren't caged.

In fact, these days most of the elephants are now owned by the camp owners. The economics of the elephant business no longer make it very viable for the small-scale independent elephant owner, and even the small owners usually hire the mahout. That is the reason my wife and I sold our elephant to Khun Et at Mae Sa as the other available emoyment options were at the smaller secondary camps where care was also secondary. Our elephant was ecstatic to be back at the Mae Sa camp. At night the elephants are usually left out at night to forage in the forest, but at the major camps they must truck in food for the animals, one of the major expenses.

[roo860]

How and why did you end up buying an elephant?

[FolkGuitar]

How and why did you end up buying an elephant?

His landlord said 'no dogs!'

[Johpa]

How and why did you end up buying an elephant?

Get wedded to a daughter of a traditional Karen elephant man and you end up owning an elephant.

[junglechef]

So your dowry was the elephant in the room

[roo860]

How and why did you end up buying an elephant?

Get wedded to a daughter of a traditional Karen elephant man and you end up owning an elephant.

Sounds good to me, I married the local rat catchers daughter!!!!!