Problems with Sons British passport

digitalchromakey · February 5, 2015

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They have scan copies of everything full scan copies of both our passports,and birth certs

Yes it was the helpline number , agree , useless. When I got the call from HMPO LIverpool last week it was not the person who is dealing with my sons application and I had to go through the whole story again , which is getting tedious to say the least.

Ive got 2 weeks before appointment with HMPO, so I will call and find out why I'm getting such special treatment

To answer you question they sent me a letter in attachment to Email. I have responded to it twice via the same Email with no response. It is together with the Domicile questionaire

Ok, thanks very much for the clarification, much appreciated.

If it's HMPO Liverpool who are requesting information then you have to go along with them, but do remind them that it's HMPO policy not to take passports from applicants in Thailand.

Let's hope it doesn't drag on and on; we have a regular contributor to the main Changes to British Passport Services thread, whose friend had to wait 18 weeks for a UK child passport due to a number of small cock ups, but primarily because HMPO Liverpool were being moody about evidence of name and address for his child.

Good luck and keep us posted.

ExPratt · February 18, 2015

Went to Trendy today to put in Original Passports, Birth cert, Divorce and custody paper plus a short Marriage cert and Monogamous Domicile questionnaire.All translated and verified by the Ministry of Foreign affairs

Told them I cannot get ex wife's birth cert , been estranged for 11 years and divorced for 4. I don't think their is a country in the World where I could get someone else s birth cert without their permission, plus I didn't need it for my kids Thai passports as I have full custody

Was there about an hour and 3 or 4 of them took an interest and they were all surprised I'd been asked for originals of nearly all documents and passports

I wrote Liverpool a snotty letter and told them if they insisted of wifes birth cert to send me a letter stating that and I'd take it to the UK immigration solicitors I'd had a consultation with before who told me full legal custody negated the need for wifes Birth cert

I'll give then 2 weeks and call them

digitalchromakey · February 18, 2015

Went to Trendy today to put in Original Passports, Birth cert, Divorce and custody paper plus a short Marriage cert and Monogamous Domicile questionnaire.All translated and verified by the Ministry of Foreign affairs

Told them I cannot get ex wife's birth cert , been estranged for 11 years and divorced for 4. I don't think their is a country in the World where I could get someone else s birth cert without their permission, plus I didn't need it for my kids Thai passports as I have full custody

Was there about an hour and 3 or 4 of them took an interest and they were all surprised I'd been asked for originals of nearly all documents and passports

I wrote Liverpool a snotty letter and told them if they insisted of wifes birth cert to send me a letter stating that and I'd take it to the UK immigration solicitors I'd had a consultation with before who told me full legal custody negated the need for wifes Birth cert

I'll give then 2 weeks and call them

Thanks for the update, big question is, did they keep your current UK Passport?

ExPratt · February 18, 2015

Went to Trendy today to put in Original Passports, Birth cert, Divorce and custody paper plus a short Marriage cert and Monogamous Domicile questionnaire.All translated and verified by the Ministry of Foreign affairs

Told them I cannot get ex wife's birth cert , been estranged for 11 years and divorced for 4. I don't think their is a country in the World where I could get someone else s birth cert without their permission, plus I didn't need it for my kids Thai passports as I have full custody

Was there about an hour and 3 or 4 of them took an interest and they were all surprised I'd been asked for originals of nearly all documents and passports

I wrote Liverpool a snotty letter and told them if they insisted of wifes birth cert to send me a letter stating that and I'd take it to the UK immigration solicitors I'd had a consultation with before who told me full legal custody negated the need for wifes Birth cert

I'll give then 2 weeks and call them

Thanks for the update, big question is, did they keep your current UK Passport?

Yes , the girl at Trendy wanted to do a scan copy but I pointed out the letter said please send "All your and your Sons passports", and I send them scan copies last time,As mentioned if they mess me about now , I'll get onto the Solicitor , they also told me there is a human rights case to answer as well

digitalchromakey · February 20, 2015

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Went to Trendy today to put in Original Passports, Birth cert, Divorce and custody paper plus a short Marriage cert and Monogamous Domicile questionnaire.All translated and verified by the Ministry of Foreign affairs

Told them I cannot get ex wife's birth cert , been estranged for 11 years and divorced for 4. I don't think their is a country in the World where I could get someone else s birth cert without their permission, plus I didn't need it for my kids Thai passports as I have full custody

Was there about an hour and 3 or 4 of them took an interest and they were all surprised I'd been asked for originals of nearly all documents and passports

I wrote Liverpool a snotty letter and told them if they insisted of wifes birth cert to send me a letter stating that and I'd take it to the UK immigration solicitors I'd had a consultation with before who told me full legal custody negated the need for wifes Birth cert

I'll give then 2 weeks and call them

Thanks for the update, big question is, did they keep your current UK Passport?

Yes , the girl at Trendy wanted to do a scan copy but I pointed out the letter said please send "All your and your Sons passports", and I send them scan copies last time,As mentioned if they mess me about now , I'll get onto the Solicitor , they also told me there is a human rights case to answer as well

I am absolutely astonished - the major plank of HMPO's ridiculous double journey to BKK application procedure for passport renewal in Thailand is that we have to hold our passports at all times.

I quote HMPO's stated policy, which they now seem more than happy to ignore :

We note that you are unhappy at having to attend the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok to submit your application in person and then return to collect the new passport.

We are sure you are aware that there is a legal requirement for all UK citizens in Thailand to retain their passport on their person at all times. In order to consider an application to renew a UK passport Her Majesty’s Passport Office (HM Passport Office) require sight of the original passport and any other supporting documents that may be required.

In light of the challenges presented by local Thai law to achieve this applicants for a UK Passport in Thailand are required to travel in person to the office of a HM Passport Office representative, in the case of Thailand our representative is the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok, for them to view the original document(s) and verify photocopies as being true replicas as the originals. This allows the customer to continue to meet the legal requirement of keeping their passport with them at all times whilst their application is being processed.

In order to guarantee public protection and so that the passport once replaced cannot be reused for illegal purposes should it be intercepted by a third party it is important that the replaced passport is physically cancelled. To ensure this takes place, the new passport is returned to the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok where the customer must present their “old” passport for it to be physically cancelled at which time they will then be presented with their new passport.

What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites, one rule for them and one rule for us mere, lowly, third class citizens.

All the money/time/inconvenience we have to spend spend in travelling backwards and forwards to BKK from wherever we happen to live is irrelevant, it appears.

ExPratt · February 20, 2015

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We note that you are unhappy at having to attend the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok to submit your application in person and then return to collect the new passport.

We are sure you are aware that there is a legal requirement for all UK citizens in Thailand to retain their passport on their person at all times. In order to consider an application to renew a UK passport Her Majesty’s Passport Office (HM Passport Office) require sight of the original passport and any other supporting documents that may be required.

In light of the challenges presented by local Thai law to achieve this applicants for a UK Passport in Thailand are required to travel in person to the office of a HM Passport Office representative, in the case of Thailand our representative is the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok, for them to view the original document(s) and verify photocopies as being true replicas as the originals. This allows the customer to continue to meet the legal requirement of keeping their passport with them at all times whilst their application is being processed.

In order to guarantee public protection and so that the passport once replaced cannot be reused for illegal purposes should it be intercepted by a third party it is important that the replaced passport is physically cancelled. To ensure this takes place, the new passport is returned to the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok where the customer must present their “old” passport for it to be physically cancelled at which time they will then be presented with their new passport.

What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites, one rule for them and one rule for us mere, lowly, third class citizens.

All the money/time/inconvenience we have to spend spend in travelling backwards and forwards to BKK from wherever we happen to live is irrelevant, it appears.

Thanks , read that 20 minutes ago and just spent that time writing on the HMPO complaint facility. It was not convenient for me to go up to Trendy from Ayutthaya last week ,i may need my passport to go back to Malaysia and work in a few weeks. As I said the women in the office were quite shocked that they wanted my passport

OJAS · February 20, 2015

I quote HMPO's stated policy, which they now seem more than happy to ignore :

We note that you are unhappy at having to attend the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok to submit your application in person and then return to collect the new passport.

We are sure you are aware that there is a legal requirement for all UK citizens in Thailand to retain their passport on their person at all times. In order to consider an application to renew a UK passport Her Majesty’s Passport Office (HM Passport Office) require sight of the original passport and any other supporting documents that may be required.

In light of the challenges presented by local Thai law to achieve this applicants for a UK Passport in Thailand are required to travel in person to the office of a HM Passport Office representative, in the case of Thailand our representative is the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok, for them to view the original document(s) and verify photocopies as being true replicas as the originals. This allows the customer to continue to meet the legal requirement of keeping their passport with them at all times whilst their application is being processed.

In order to guarantee public protection and so that the passport once replaced cannot be reused for illegal purposes should it be intercepted by a third party it is important that the replaced passport is physically cancelled. To ensure this takes place, the new passport is returned to the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok where the customer must present their “old” passport for it to be physically cancelled at which time they will then be presented with their new passport.

What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites, one rule for them and one rule for us mere, lowly, third class citizens.

All the money/time/inconvenience we have to spend spend in travelling backwards and forwards to BKK from wherever we happen to live is irrelevant, it appears.

Do you have a link to this stated policy digitalchromakey? Or was it contained in an email HMPO sent you?

What beggars belief is that the "challenges posed by local Thai law" didn't seem to rule out postal applications before 26 March 2014. So precisely what changed on that date? Zilch, I suspect, but HMPO are presumably unwilling to openly admit to any fundamental error on HM Government's part in the passport renewal procedures which applied here when FCO had the responsibility. Proof, if we needed it, that "saving face" is not a uniquely Thai characteristic!

I only hope that ExPratt and his sons (unless these are dual nationals) don't find themselves banged up in the Bangkok Hilton for failure to produce their passports to officers of the BIB upon request, while these are gathering dust in some orange box in HMPO's Liverpool office! IMHO he has been - and is continuing to be - treated absolutely outrageously by HMPO.

ExPratt · February 21, 2015

Response to yesterday complaint

Thank you for your enquiry.

Her Majesty's Passport Office do not accept photocopies of all documents. At any stage of the application the Examiner can request to see original documents.

OJAS · February 21, 2015

Response to yesterday complaint

Thank you for your enquiry.

Her Majesty's Passport Office do not accept photocopies of all documents. At any stage of the application the Examiner can request to see original documents.

Absolutely incredible! Looks like you had the misfortune to receive some stock reply from HMPO Liverpool's resident YTS clerk who's rather wet around the ears!!

I strongly suggest that you escalate your complaint through the procedure set out at https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-passport-office/about/complaints-procedure. Point out the legal requirement in Thailand for passports to be carried at all times as set out in the Embassy's travel advice at https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs (which is why renewal applicants here are permitted to retain their existing passports during the renewal process and only provide signed copies with their applications). You might wish to enquire as to how the Examiner expects you to comply with this legal requirement if he or she wants to see your original passport.

In practice, I suspect that there would be little difficulty in providing your son's original passport if push came to shove - assuming, of course, that (1) he holds dual British/Thai citizenship, and (2) you don't have any imminent plans for him to accompany you on a trip to the UK. But you should really resist tooth and nail having to send your own original passport - pointing out in so doing the statement included in the Embassy's travel advice that foreigners have been arrested here because they were unable to produce their passport on request.

digitalchromakey · February 21, 2015

I quote HMPO's stated policy, which they now seem more than happy to ignore :

We note that you are unhappy at having to attend the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok to submit your application in person and then return to collect the new passport.

We are sure you are aware that there is a legal requirement for all UK citizens in Thailand to retain their passport on their person at all times. In order to consider an application to renew a UK passport Her Majesty’s Passport Office (HM Passport Office) require sight of the original passport and any other supporting documents that may be required.

In light of the challenges presented by local Thai law to achieve this applicants for a UK Passport in Thailand are required to travel in person to the office of a HM Passport Office representative, in the case of Thailand our representative is the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok, for them to view the original document(s) and verify photocopies as being true replicas as the originals. This allows the customer to continue to meet the legal requirement of keeping their passport with them at all times whilst their application is being processed.

In order to guarantee public protection and so that the passport once replaced cannot be reused for illegal purposes should it be intercepted by a third party it is important that the replaced passport is physically cancelled. To ensure this takes place, the new passport is returned to the UK Visa Application Centre in Bangkok where the customer must present their “old” passport for it to be physically cancelled at which time they will then be presented with their new passport.

What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites, one rule for them and one rule for us mere, lowly, third class citizens.

All the money/time/inconvenience we have to spend in travelling backwards and forwards to BKK from wherever we happen to live is irrelevant, it appears.

Do you have a link to this stated policy digitalchromakey? Or was it contained in an email HMPO sent you?

What beggars belief is that the "challenges posed by local Thai law" didn't seem to rule out postal applications before 26 March 2014. So precisely what changed on that date? Zilch, I suspect, but HMPO are presumably unwilling to openly admit to any fundamental error on HM Government's part in the passport renewal procedures which applied here when FCO had the responsibility. Proof, if we needed it, that "saving face" is not a uniquely Thai characteristic!

I only hope that ExPratt and his sons (unless these are dual nationals) don't find themselves banged up in the Bangkok Hilton for failure to produce their passports to officers of the BIB upon request, while these are gathering dust in some orange box in HMPO's Liverpool office! IMHO he has been - and is continuing to be - treated absolutely outrageously by HMPO.

No, as you deduced, the text was sent as part of a response to an email complaint, but it does provide a 'credible rationale' for the rigmarole we UK Citizens who are resident in Thailand have to go through to renew our UK passports.

I received this reply last April and since then HMPO has relented somewhat in that it now allows a third party to make the application on one's behalf.

Also trendy (unofficially) allow third parties to collect new issued passports as well.

Now it seems that the requirement to 'retain passports on one's person at all times' is discardable if HMPO so desire, let's hope that they can be persuaded to dispose of the whole two trip application/collection process and allow on-line applications with passports courier returned to our home addresses in the future.

scotty92 · February 21, 2015

Hello,it's my understanding that if you aren't married when the child is born you will have to go thorough the DNA process!!!???

And if your child has his thai passport apply for a certificate for the right to abode this will get issued into his thai passport and he will be able to travel to the uk just as if it was a uk passport.

This is my understanding hope it helps..

brewsterbudgen · February 21, 2015

Hello,it's my understanding that if you aren't married when the child is born you will have to go thorough the DNA process!!!???

And if your child has his thai passport apply for a certificate for the right to abode this will get issued into his thai passport and he will be able to travel to the uk just as if it was a uk passport.

This is my understanding hope it helps..

I think your understanding is wrong. If you are named on the birth certificate as the father, even though you are not married, you can apply for a UK passport for the child. There is no need for DNA proof.

Maybe someone can confirm?

ExPratt · February 21, 2015

Hello,it's my understanding that if you aren't married when the child is born you will have to go thorough the DNA process!!!???

And if your child has his thai passport apply for a certificate for the right to abode this will get issued into his thai passport and he will be able to travel to the uk just as if it was a uk passport.

This is my understanding hope it helps..

I think your understanding is wrong. If you are named on the birth certificate as the father, even though you are not married, you can apply for a UK passport for the child. There is no need for DNA proof.

Maybe someone can confirm?

As long as you married the Mother of the child any time after the birth they are entitled to a British passport by descent , if one of the parents was British by birth, Descent only passes for 1 generation. If my son had a child overseas the child would not be eligible for a British passport/

The problem i have is the are not listening to me, I have sole custody of my children, when I got their Thai passports I required no information at all from the Mother no birth cert nothing. So as a British man I can get his kids Thai passports alone because I have Sole custidy. For some reason these F kin Mongs in Liverpool keep requesting my Estranged , Divorced wife's , Birth certificate , which I don't have and cannot get

scotty92 · February 21, 2015

I know you want the passport for the boy..

But can't you get the certificate for the right to abode put in his thai passport and then once in the uk sort it from there.

Just a thought

ExPratt · February 21, 2015

I know you want the passport for the boy..
But can't you get the certificate for the right to abode put in his thai passport and then once in the uk sort it from there.

Just a thought

Yes my Daughter has that in hers , she held a Brit passport when she was very young as she was born in uK. but you must be entitled to a Brit Passport to get the indefinite entry to Abode , so I'd still have to go through the same nonsense with his one. I knew this was going to be a Pain in the arse when I started it , I had a paid consultation with British Immigration lawyers before I started the application and they told me The sole custody ruling meant I did not require any of my wife's documents, I just wish HMPO would understand that

scotty92 · February 21, 2015

It was my understanding that as long as you his father is british you should be able to apply for the aforementioned certificate and they will attach it to his thai passport and this will give him pretty much the same rights as a uk PP..

I might well be wrong but I have looked at the uk government website and arrived at this conclusion

I'm hoping to follow this route myself.

ExPratt · February 21, 2015

It was my understanding that as long as you his father is british you should be able to apply for the aforementioned certificate and they will attach it to his thai passport and this will give him pretty much the same rights as a uk PP..

I might well be wrong but I have looked at the uk government website and arrived at this conclusion

I'm hoping to follow this route myself.

Yes it the same as PP , but you also have to supply the same documentation for a PP, For my daughter easy, Born in Uk , Married at the time, for my son not so easy , Born in Thailand not married at the time. My daughter ended up with her Right to abode by accident really. We applied for Holiday Visa for her my son and my missus for the UK, the Visa people came back and said my Daugherty did not need a Visa but because she didn't have British Passport so she could have right to abode , wasn't cheap mind , cost more than a passport

scotty92 · February 21, 2015

That's good to know

Thanks

scotty92 · February 21, 2015

Although it will cost a little more it will do away with the hassle your having now

Regards

ExPratt · February 21, 2015

Although it will cost a little more it will do away with the hassle your having now

Regards

Although it will cost a little more it will do away with the hassle your having now

Regards

Probably so mate but I'm balls deep in it now, so if it goes pear shaped I'll look into. Thanks for the advice

Ive actual spent a fortune on this passport application

brewsterbudgen · February 22, 2015

Why is it necessary to be married? I'm sure I've read that marriage is unnecessary.

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

Why is it necessary to be married? I'm sure I've read that marriage is unnecessary.

If the kid was born Pre 2006 , yes it is,if they were born overseas. There is amendments coming in this year to the 2014 immigration act that may change that

brewsterbudgen · February 22, 2015

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Why is it necessary to be married? I'm sure I've read that marriage is unnecessary.

If the kid was born Pre 2006 , yes it is,if they were born overseas. There is amendments coming in this year to the 2014 immigration act that may change that

Ah. My kid is due to be born next month, so not pre 2006.

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

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Why is it necessary to be married? I'm sure I've read that marriage is unnecessary.

If the kid was born Pre 2006 , yes it is,if they were born overseas. There is amendments coming in this year to the 2014 immigration act that may change that

Ah. My kid is due to be born next month, so not pre 2006.

There are a few .Gov sites , I cant find any with that info but I did before.

Newspaper article

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jan/21/uk-citizenship-parent-unmarried

ukccen was born abroad to a British father who was not married to her (non-British I presume) mother. She is not permitted to apply for a British passport because adult children of unmarried British fathers born before 1 July 2006 are excluded from the provisions.

http://www.govyou.co.uk/allow-illegitimate-children-citizenship-through-their-british-fathers/

I think you are ok , but check it. Were you born in the UK ?

brewsterbudgen · February 22, 2015

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<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Why is it necessary to be married? I'm sure I've read that marriage is unnecessary.

If the kid was born Pre 2006 , yes it is,if they were born overseas. There is amendments coming in this year to the 2014 immigration act that may change that

Ah. My kid is due to be born next month, so not pre 2006.

There are a few .Gov sites , I cant find any with that info but I did before.

Newspaper article

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jan/21/uk-citizenship-parent-unmarried

ukccen was born abroad to a British father who was not married to her (non-British I presume) mother. She is not permitted to apply for a British passport because adult children of unmarried British fathers born before 1 July 2006 are excluded from the provisions.

http://www.govyou.co.uk/allow-illegitimate-children-citizenship-through-their-british-fathers/

I think you are ok , but check it. Were you born in the UK ?

No! But that's already the subject of another thread!!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/798995-uk-citizenship-clearify-the-term-british-by-desent/

scotty92 · February 22, 2015

Hello,

Sorry I think my post caused the confusion. Just to clear it all up I've copy and pasted straight from the government site.....

First of all there are 3 questions

Check if you're a British citizen

Start again

1.when were you born?

On or after 1 January 1983

Change this answer

2. Were you born in the UK or a qualifying territory?

No

Change this answer

3. Were one or both of your parents a British citizen 'not by descent'?

Yes

Change this answer

Answer= You might be a British citizen

In most cases you’ll be a British citizen ‘by descent’. This means you can gain citizenship from one of your parents, but your own children won’t automatically become British citizens.

If you were born before 1 July 2006 and your parents weren’t married when you were born (and haven’t married since), you can’t get British citizenship through your father.

You’ll be a British citizen ‘not by descent’ if, when you were born, one of your parents was a British citizen in Crown service, designated service or service of a European Community (EC) institution.

This means you can pass on your British citizenship to your children.

Your parent must have been recruited to their service in the UK or EC (if serving with an EC institution).

Children born on or after 21 May 2002 also qualify if their parent was recruited in a qualifying territory.

The qualifying territories are all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (in Cyprus).

Hope this helps

Richard W · February 22, 2015

I also have to fill in a "Domicile questionnaire" with all kinds of weird and wonderful questions "Where do I want to be buried " being one

For those who don't know, including one of the earlier questioners who thought that subsequent marriage always legitimated, the matter of legitimacy (and degree) is decided by the law of the father's domicile at the time of the birth / marriage. For example, were ExPratt domiciled in Thailand when his son was born, his son would have been born British. On the other hand, if he were domiciled in China at the times of birth and marriage, his son would not be British.

paz · February 22, 2015

For those who don't know, including one of the earlier questioners who thought that subsequent marriage always legitimated, the matter of legitimacy (and degree) is decided by the law of the father's domicile at the time of the birth / marriage. For example, were ExPratt domiciled in Thailand when his son was born, his son would have been born British. On the other hand, if he were domiciled in China at the times of birth and marriage, his son would not be British.

You're saying that British nationality law takes into consideration other countries law to determine a natural right ? if so, one learns something new about Britain and the examples they set.

Richard W · February 22, 2015

You're saying that British nationality law takes into consideration other countries law to determine a natural right ?

Yep, British Nationality Act 1981 Section 47(2):

A person shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to have been legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents if by the law of the place in which his father was domiciled at the time of the marriage the marriage operated immediately or subsequently to legitimate him, and not otherwise.

The UKVI interpretation of 'not otherwise' is quite restrictive. If the land of domicile (e.g. New Zealand) has legitimacy laws following the late 20th Century English system at the time of birth, and then abolishes the concept of illegitimacy, subsequent parental marriage will no longer confer British citizenship! The principle is that one can only become legitimate once, and the method matters.

glassdude007 · February 22, 2015

Surely the off-spring of an un-wed British citizen uk father and Thai mother born in Thailand can get both passports???

Would a DNA test showing that you are the father help you at all?

For me at USA embassy in BKK was told un-wed parents need this test done to finish the birth registration process.

We (son and I) have an appointment in March for this DNA paternity test at embassy in BKK,

If result is positive dad and son dna match then the birth registration and passport will be completed.

Hopefully I will also be able to use this test result to legitimize his birth in Thailand as well.

Then can get Non Imm O visa to visit family as required.

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