Problems with Sons British passport

digitalchromakey · February 22, 2015

For those who don't know, including one of the earlier questioners who thought that subsequent marriage always legitimated, the matter of legitimacy (and degree) is decided by the law of the father's domicile at the time of the birth / marriage. For example, were ExPratt domiciled in Thailand when his son was born, his son would have been born British. On the other hand, if he were domiciled in China at the times of birth and marriage, his son would not be British.

You're saying that British nationality law takes into consideration other countries law to determine a natural right ? if so, one learns something new about Britain and the examples they set.

Yes, when that right is due to the child's place of birth, here is a link to a British Government document that explains the issue and the process for determination of legitimacy for births before 1st July 2006:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118568/legitimation-and-domicile.pdf.

This explains some of the questions that the OP is being asked about domicile, etc. and why subsequent marriage must be proven.

paz · February 22, 2015

Hopefully I will also be able to use this test result to legitimize his birth in Thailand as well.

Then can get Non Imm O visa to visit family as required.

No DNA test is needed for consensual legitimization in Thailand. Family court only decides based on mother and father declarations. If the child is old enough to declare his/her will, no court case is needed. If it is, that takes 2 or 3 months.

Richard W · February 22, 2015

Surely the off-spring of an un-wed British citizen uk father and Thai mother born in Thailand can get both passports???

If you'd read the whole thread, you'd realise that though this is roughly so for births nowadays, the change was not retroactive and only applies to births from a certain date (c. 2006).

glassdude007 · February 22, 2015

This is all very interesting.

Does Thai law accept DNA proof of who the father is?

Yes. It is one way of prooving parenthood.

From Mario here on the forum...legal GURU...

And I have read other places that DNA test paternity test is one option to show the court or the amphor in Thailand for legit birth...

now a days...

seeks the british laws updated since this boy was born..

digitalchromakey · February 22, 2015

This is all very interesting.

Does Thai law accept DNA proof of who the father is?

Yes. It is one way of prooving parenthood.

From Mario here on the forum...legal GURU...

And I have read other places that DNA test paternity test is one option to show the court or the amphor in Thailand for legit birth...

now a days...

seeks the british laws updated since this boy was born..

Subtle difference, the thread that you linked to is about a Thai born child's unmarried father being legitimised (i.e. recognised) under Thai Law.

OP's issue is obtaining recognition of his child's right to be a British Citizen under UK Law so that a UK passport can be issued for his son who was born in Thailand before 1st July 2006..

Edited February 22, 2015 by digitalchromakey

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

Yes my Son qualify's for a British passport. Liverpool are just being obtuse

I absolutely ripped them yesterday about handing in my Passport. Told them they were putting one of their citizens at risk of arrest and detention in a country run by a military Junta, got a bit dramatic but I was raging when I wrote it , I;m taking it to the home office , they sent me the official complaint form, I'm going to cane them especially as I have a letter from them asking for Docs I told them I cannot get

I was also reading on a site that with Sole custody they will not request the other partners documents, so they are either breaking their own rules or not read the Further information letter I sent with application

I have a feeling they are going to knock it back , I had no proof of address for Thailand as Its all in the missus name s i have been working away for years, I gave them proof of address for where I lived in Malaysia also I think they are going to make a problem about my wife's Birth cert

Have a question about Bank Statements, I was going to get one as proof of address and the Bangkok bank made one up , when I looked at it , it did not have an address on it , Is this normal,the bird in there said they do not put address's on them ?

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

I also have to fill in a "Domicile questionnaire" with all kinds of weird and wonderful questions "Where do I want to be buried " being one
For those who don't know, including one of the earlier questioners who thought that subsequent marriage always legitimated, the matter of legitimacy (and degree) is decided by the law of the father's domicile at the time of the birth / marriage. For example, were ExPratt domiciled in Thailand when his son was born, his son would have been born British. On the other hand, if he were domiciled in China at the times of birth and marriage, his son would not be British.

What about if was Domiciled in UK when he was Born in Thailand

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

For those who don't know, including one of the earlier questioners who thought that subsequent marriage always legitimated, the matter of legitimacy (and degree) is decided by the law of the father's domicile at the time of the birth / marriage. For example, were ExPratt domiciled in Thailand when his son was born, his son would have been born British. On the other hand, if he were domiciled in China at the times of birth and marriage, his son would not be British.

You're saying that British nationality law takes into consideration other countries law to determine a natural right ? if so, one learns something new about Britain and the examples they set.

Yes, when that right is due to the child's place of birth, here is a link to a British Government document that explains the issue and the process for determination of legitimacy for births before 1st July 2006:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118568/legitimation-and-domicile.pdf.

This explains some of the questions that the OP is being asked about domicile, etc. and why subsequent marriage must be proven.

Sorted , I was having a bit of a panic after reading Richard Ws Post

However, the child can only have a claim if the law in the place/country where the father is domiciled at the time of the marriage serves to legitimise the child. For example, if the father is domiciled in the UK at the time of the marriage, this would serve to legitimise the child. If on the other hand, the father’s domicile is another country, we need to consider the law of that country

Richard W · February 22, 2015

What about if was Domiciled in UK when he was Born in Thailand

So long as you were domiciled in the the UK when he was born and when you were married, it's 'just' a matter of proving the existence of the marriage. When your daughter was born, on what basis was your wife present in the UK? Was your son in the UK, and if so on what basis?

One combination that is a bit worrying is the possibility that you were domiciled in the UK when he was born but domiciled in Thailand when you married. As I read it, your marriage would then not have had the effect of changing his legitimacy status in Thai law as Thai law has no such distinction, and so he would not be treated as legitimate under the BNA 1981.

The (passport office?) instructions recently linked to contain the paragraph:

The domicile of the father may be presumed to be the country of his birth unless satisfactory evidence to the contrary is produced. In particular, if the father holds a passport issued by the authorities of the country in which he was born it can be safely assumed that the father has retained a domicile of origin, regardless of how long he has lived in the UK, and the relevant laws will be those of that country.

If this is followed, you will be deemed to have been domiciled in the UK.

ExPratt · February 22, 2015

What about if was Domiciled in UK when he was Born in Thailand

So long as you were domiciled in the the UK when he was born and when you were married, it's 'just' a matter of proving the existence of the marriage. When your daughter was born, on what basis was your wife present in the UK? Was your son in the UK, and if so on what basis?

One combination that is a bit worrying is the possibility that you were domiciled in the UK when he was born but domiciled in Thailand when you married. As I read it, your marriage would then not have had the effect of changing his legitimacy status in Thai law as Thai law has no such distinction, and so he would not be treated as legitimate under the BNA 1981.

The (passport office?) instructions recently linked to contain the paragraph:

The domicile of the father may be presumed to be the country of his birth unless satisfactory evidence to the contrary is produced. In particular, if the father holds a passport issued by the authorities of the country in which he was born it can be safely assumed that the father has retained a domicile of origin, regardless of how long he has lived in the UK, and the relevant laws will be those of that country.

If this is followed, you will be deemed to have been domiciled in the UK.

Yes my son was born in Thailand and I was married in Thailand 4 months later. I was based in UK at those times

Its a bit of an odd rule isnt it , the country where you were domiciled, that law of legitimacy takes precedence

Richard W · February 22, 2015

Its a bit of an odd rule isnt it , the country where you were domiciled, that law of legitimacy takes precedence

I think the idea is that legitimacy should be independent of country. For that to happen, domicile has to be taken into account. The restrictive part is probably an attempt to prevent British nationality being in the gift of foreign governments - you will be aware from English History (the Beauforts, ancestors of Henry VII) and War and Peace (Pierre Bezuhov) of legitimisation being the gift of monarchs.

digitalchromakey · February 23, 2015

Yes my Son qualify's for a British passport. Liverpool are just being obtuse

I absolutely ripped them yesterday about handing in my Passport. Told them they were putting one of their citizens at risk of arrest and detention in a country run by a military Junta, got a bit dramatic but I was raging when I wrote it , I;m taking it to the home office , they sent me the official complaint form, I'm going to cane them especially as I have a letter from them asking for Docs I told them I cannot get

I was also reading on a site that with Sole custody they will not request the other partners documents, so they are either breaking their own rules or not read the Further information letter I sent with application

I have a feeling they are going to knock it back , I had no proof of address for Thailand as Its all in the missus name s i have been working away for years, I gave them proof of address for where I lived in Malaysia also I think they are going to make a problem about my wife's Birth cert

Have a question about Bank Statements, I was going to get one as proof of address and the Bangkok bank made one up , when I looked at it , it did not have an address on it , Is this normal,the bird in there said they do not put address's on them ?

Even the UK Civil Service has been known on occasions to make it up as they go....

You are without any doubt going to have a problem with HMPO if you can't show your name at a particular address in Thailand within the past year.

If you go into a bank and request a statement then yes, it won't have your address, however if they post you a statement to you (as with a current account) then it normally does.

Do you have a hospital registration? If so get them to write to you at your home address.

You can register your address at your local Thai Immigration Department and get an evidence of address from them then get an approved translation.

If you are normally employed outside of Thailand, just get a letter from your employer confirming your name and address in Thailand (no reason even that your employer has to be a Thai Based Company).

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

Yes my Son qualify's for a British passport. Liverpool are just being obtuse

I absolutely ripped them yesterday about handing in my Passport. Told them they were putting one of their citizens at risk of arrest and detention in a country run by a military Junta, got a bit dramatic but I was raging when I wrote it , I;m taking it to the home office , they sent me the official complaint form, I'm going to cane them especially as I have a letter from them asking for Docs I told them I cannot get

I was also reading on a site that with Sole custody they will not request the other partners documents, so they are either breaking their own rules or not read the Further information letter I sent with application

I have a feeling they are going to knock it back , I had no proof of address for Thailand as Its all in the missus name s i have been working away for years, I gave them proof of address for where I lived in Malaysia also I think they are going to make a problem about my wife's Birth cert

Have a question about Bank Statements, I was going to get one as proof of address and the Bangkok bank made one up , when I looked at it , it did not have an address on it , Is this normal,the bird in there said they do not put address's on them ?

Even the UK Civil Service has been known on occasions to make it up as they go....

You are without any doubt going to have a problem with HMPO if you can't show your name at a particular address in Thailand within the past year.

If you go into a bank and request a statement then yes, it won't have your address, however if they post you a statement to you (as with a current account) then it normally does.

Do you have a hospital registration? If so get them to write to you at your home address.

You can register your address at your local Thai Immigration Department and get an evidence of address from them then get an approved translation.

If you are normally employed outside of Thailand, just get a letter from your employer confirming your name and address in Thailand (no reason even that your employer has to be a Thai Based Company).

You dont think they will accept the Malaysian one , every think is in my 2nd wife's name , I am overseas 80% of the time

Edited February 23, 2015 by ExPratt

digitalchromakey · February 23, 2015

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Yes my Son qualify's for a British passport. Liverpool are just being obtuse

I absolutely ripped them yesterday about handing in my Passport. Told them they were putting one of their citizens at risk of arrest and detention in a country run by a military Junta, got a bit dramatic but I was raging when I wrote it , I;m taking it to the home office , they sent me the official complaint form, I'm going to cane them especially as I have a letter from them asking for Docs I told them I cannot get

I was also reading on a site that with Sole custody they will not request the other partners documents, so they are either breaking their own rules or not read the Further information letter I sent with application

I have a feeling they are going to knock it back , I had no proof of address for Thailand as Its all in the missus name s i have been working away for years, I gave them proof of address for where I lived in Malaysia also I think they are going to make a problem about my wife's Birth cert

Have a question about Bank Statements, I was going to get one as proof of address and the Bangkok bank made one up , when I looked at it , it did not have an address on it , Is this normal,the bird in there said they do not put address's on them ?

Even the UK Civil Service has been known on occasions to make it up as they go....

You are without any doubt going to have a problem with HMPO if you can't show your name at a particular address in Thailand within the past year.

If you go into a bank and request a statement then yes, it won't have your address, however if they post you a statement to you (as with a current account) then it normally does.

Do you have a hospital registration? If so get them to write to you at your home address.

You can register your address at your local Thai Immigration Department and get an evidence of address from them then get an approved translation.

If you are normally employed outside of Thailand, just get a letter from your employer confirming your name and address in Thailand (no reason even that your employer has to be a Thai Based Company).

You dont think they will accept the Malaysian one , every think is in my 2nd wife's name , I am overseas 80% of the time

As I understand it, only if you were to apply in Malaysia (which btw would probably have been much easier as you can apply on line and get your son's new passport couriered to your Malaysian Address).

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

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Yes my Son qualify's for a British passport. Liverpool are just being obtuse

I absolutely ripped them yesterday about handing in my Passport. Told them they were putting one of their citizens at risk of arrest and detention in a country run by a military Junta, got a bit dramatic but I was raging when I wrote it , I;m taking it to the home office , they sent me the official complaint form, I'm going to cane them especially as I have a letter from them asking for Docs I told them I cannot get

I was also reading on a site that with Sole custody they will not request the other partners documents, so they are either breaking their own rules or not read the Further information letter I sent with application

I have a feeling they are going to knock it back , I had no proof of address for Thailand as Its all in the missus name s i have been working away for years, I gave them proof of address for where I lived in Malaysia also I think they are going to make a problem about my wife's Birth cert

Have a question about Bank Statements, I was going to get one as proof of address and the Bangkok bank made one up , when I looked at it , it did not have an address on it , Is this normal,the bird in there said they do not put address's on them ?

Even the UK Civil Service has been known on occasions to make it up as they go....

You are without any doubt going to have a problem with HMPO if you can't show your name at a particular address in Thailand within the past year.

If you go into a bank and request a statement then yes, it won't have your address, however if they post you a statement to you (as with a current account) then it normally does.

Do you have a hospital registration? If so get them to write to you at your home address.

You can register your address at your local Thai Immigration Department and get an evidence of address from them then get an approved translation.

If you are normally employed outside of Thailand, just get a letter from your employer confirming your name and address in Thailand (no reason even that your employer has to be a Thai Based Company).

You dont think they will accept the Malaysian one , every think is in my 2nd wife's name , I am overseas 80% of the time

As I understand it, only if you were to apply in Malaysia (which btw would probably have been much easier as you can apply on line and get your son's new passport couriered to your Malaysian Address).

They will see from my passport that the majority of the last 6 years I have been in Malaysia , when did this proof of address nonsense come in. I do not see what purpose it serves for the father to prove where he lives

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

So I can just go to immigration and register at my address

digitalchromakey · February 23, 2015

So I can just go to immigration and register at my address

What kind if entry visa/extension do you currently use/have?

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

So I can just go to immigration and register at my address

What kind if entry visa/extension do you currently use/have?

Spousal 1yr Multi , problem being it is in my passport and my passport is in Liverpool

digitalchromakey · February 23, 2015

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So I can just go to immigration and register at my address

What kind if entry visa/extension do you currently use/have?

Spousal 1yr Multi , problem being it is in my passport and my passport is in Liverpool

Ah well, that's well and truly ruled that one out then.......

Your wife could have tried doing a TM30 Report to immigration that you are living at her (=your) home which (you) she owns.

With your passport you could then have got a name at address confirmation from Immigration, however.....

If you don't have any employer (or friend with a company who could 'affirm' you as an employee and cite your residential address - HMPO/trendy have zero interest in Company Papers, Tax Records or Work Permits), then it's time to get registered at your local private hospital; I am sure they could be persuaded to then address a letter to you.

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

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So I can just go to immigration and register at my address

What kind if entry visa/extension do you currently use/have?

Spousal 1yr Multi , problem being it is in my passport and my passport is in Liverpool

Ah well, that's well and truly ruled that one out then.......

Your wife could have tried doing a TM30 Report to immigration that you are living at her (=your) home which (you) she owns.

With your passport you could then have got a name at address confirmation from Immigration, however.....

If you don't have any employer (or friend with a company who could 'affirm' you as an employee and cite your residential address - HMPO/trendy have zero interest in Company Papers, Tax Records or Work Permits), then it's time to get registered at your local private hospital; I am sure they could be persuaded to then address a letter to you.

Not a bad idea , Ive actually run out of tablets I'm supposed to take for my back, might take the scan and letter along and see if I can get a prescription and register

ExPratt · February 23, 2015

Got mate /ex boss the send me a letter with address, confirmation of completion of contract. Called Liverpool and the let me Email it. Got Hospital appointment for Wednesday so I'll get them to give me a letter with address for "Insurance"

digitalchromakey · February 24, 2015

Got mate /ex boss the send me a letter with address, confirmation of completion of contract. Called Liverpool and the let me Email it. Got Hospital appointment for Wednesday so I'll get them to give me a letter with address for "Insurance"

If the confirmation of name/address is on company letter head then HMPO will be happy bunnies and you can tick that particular box.

ExPratt · February 24, 2015

Got mate /ex boss the send me a letter with address, confirmation of completion of contract. Called Liverpool and the let me Email it. Got Hospital appointment for Wednesday so I'll get them to give me a letter with address for "Insurance"

If the confirmation of name/address is on company letter head then HMPO will be happy bunnies and you can tick that particular box.

Yep thank for the heads up yesterday , thought I might get away with Malaysia address. All I have to do now is hope they understand what Sole Custody is and realize I cannot get my wifes birth cert and also as sole custodian I don't need it.

ExPratt · February 26, 2015

Unbelievably I have been sent another letter asking for my Ex wifes Birth certificate . My sons Original Birth Certificate is laminated so we sent that a certified copy and translation , they said they do not accept laminated birth certs we need to send one that isn't laminated, I don't know where they think I can get another original cert from

I checked with a brief this week about Sole custody and supplying wifes Birth cert , he said I do not need it if I have sole custody

I have sent a compliant naming the HMPO member of staff I am dealing with and drafted a letter to be sent to main Home office complaints dept

I have also told them to send all my documents and passport back

digitalchromakey · February 27, 2015

Unbelievably I have been sent another letter asking for my Ex wifes Birth certificate . My sons Original Birth Certificate is laminated so we sent that a certified copy and translation , they said they do not accept laminated birth certs we need to send one that isn't laminated, I don't know where they think I can get another original cert from

I checked with a brief this week about Sole custody and supplying wifes Birth cert , he said I do not need it if I have sole custody

I have sent a compliant naming the HMPO member of staff I am dealing with and drafted a letter to be sent to main Home office complaints dept

I have also told them to send all my documents and passport back

Wow, it sounds like your son's passport landed on the desk of HMPO's c..t of all c..ts, who also seems to be completely unaware as to HMPO policy/guidelines.

Do you still have a UK address by chance?

If so, I would also write a strongly worded complaint to whosoever is the MP/MEP for the are you used to live in.

If you don't have any UK address then you can write a complaint to the consular section of the British Embassy in BKK and also make sure you name the Muppet who is making your life super difficult.

You could also write to the Home Secretary (Teresa May MP) and also to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee (Keith Vaz MP).

Who ever you may chose to write to further, please also add that this little HMPO Adolf has insisted that your send your passport to the UK in contravention of HMPO's own policy/guidelines on British passport holders based in Thailand thus placing your self at risk of arrest by the Thai Military Government.

Repeat your demand again that they return your original papers.

I can palpably imagine what frustration you must be currently experiencing in having to deal with these jobsworths who are over 6,000 miles away sitting in their nice comfortable offices and creating chaos.

digitalchromakey · February 27, 2015

Unbelievably I have been sent another letter asking for my Ex wifes Birth certificate . My sons Original Birth Certificate is laminated so we sent that a certified copy and translation , they said they do not accept laminated birth certs we need to send one that isn't laminated, I don't know where they think I can get another original cert from

I checked with a brief this week about Sole custody and supplying wifes Birth cert , he said I do not need it if I have sole custody

I have sent a compliant naming the HMPO member of staff I am dealing with and drafted a letter to be sent to main Home office complaints dept

I have also told them to send all my documents and passport back

I am also perplexed as to what HMPO hope to achieve in seeing your ex-wife's birth certificate, as your son's birth certificate will already show her nationality. place of birth, age and ID Card number, all more than adequate evidence that your son's mother is Thai....

As you have already posted, they have copies of your subsequent marriage and divorce certificates, plus translations to English.

If you were domiciled in the UK at the time then there is no further argument against your son being eligible for a passport that I am aware of.

ExPratt · February 27, 2015

I am also perplexed as to what HMPO hope to achieve in seeing your ex-wife's birth certificate, as your son's birth certificate will already show her nationality. place of birth, age and ID Card number, all more than adequate evidence that your son's mother is Thai....

Unbelievably I have been sent another letter asking for my Ex wifes Birth certificate . My sons Original Birth Certificate is laminated so we sent that a certified copy and translation , they said they do not accept laminated birth certs we need to send one that isn't laminated, I don't know where they think I can get another original cert from

I checked with a brief this week about Sole custody and supplying wifes Birth cert , he said I do not need it if I have sole custody

I have sent a compliant naming the HMPO member of staff I am dealing with and drafted a letter to be sent to main Home office complaints dept

I have also told them to send all my documents and passport back

As you have already posted, they have copies of your subsequent marriage and divorce certificates, plus translations to English.

If you were domiciled in the UK at the time then there is no further argument against your son being eligible for a passport that I am aware of.

Actually the letter that was sent said they also wanted information about my ex-wife being married or divorced before and those documents. Ive written to their customer services in Newport and sent a couple through the site, I emailed the UK immigration lawyers that I had a consultation before he told me to challenge it

Edited February 27, 2015 by ExPratt

OJAS · February 28, 2015

"If so, I would also write a strongly worded complaint to whosoever is the MP/MEP for the are you used to live in."

"You could also write to the Home Secretary (Teresa May MP) and also to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee (Keith Vaz MP)."

If you are minded to follow these particular suggestions of digitalchromakey's, you need to do so ASAP since Parliament is due to be dissolved on 30th March in advance of the General Election on 7th May, and there will then exist a state of limbo until the final Election outcome is known.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/general/general-election-timetable-2015/

in the meantime you'll doubtless be relieved to learn that your passport is probably being put to extremely good use in HMPO's Liverpool office at the present time - namely as a mat for the idiot who has demanded to see it to stand his or her tea-mug on.

Edited February 28, 2015 by OJAS

ExPratt · February 28, 2015

"If so, I would also write a strongly worded complaint to whosoever is the MP/MEP for the are you used to live in."

"You could also write to the Home Secretary (Teresa May MP) and also to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee (Keith Vaz MP)."

If you are minded to follow these particular suggestions of digitalchromakey's, you need to do so ASAP since Parliament is due to be dissolved on 30th March in advance of the General Election on 7th May, and there will then exist a state of limbo until the final Election outcome is known.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/general/general-election-timetable-2015/

in the meantime you'll doubtless be relieved to learn that your passport is probably being put to extremely good use in HMPO's Liverpool office at the present time - namely as a mat for the idiot who has demanded to see it to stand his or her tea-mug on.

Thank you

I have spoken to Two Immigration solicitors in the Uk , They said my wifes cert is not Mandatory if I have Sole custody

So I have written again to Liverpool and told them to make a decision either way. They have ignored the 2 letters explaining about my Ex Wifes Birth cert and just send me letters asking for it. I told them to reject it and put the reason in a letter , Then I'll go forward with the Solicitor , I doubt they will be stupid enough to put it in writing.

Also the Laminated Birth Cert , Fiasco, I originally sent a copy with translation and verified. They asked for the Original , so I send it along with copy and Translation all ref numbers match on the Original and stamped by Ministry of Foreign affairs as a genuine copy, They then said they do not except laminated certificates , so I informed them that surprisingly you only get 1 Original cert and did they want me to take the plastic off of it

Puyai · February 28, 2015

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"they were quite clear that the Divorce and Child custody order were enough to legitimate my son as British by descent and so eligible for a British passport"

Sorry, i don't understand how a divorce and child custody can make your son British by descent.

If your EX-wife is British, surely her birth certificate would be needed. That normally is what's needed to make a passport for a child (by descent) as well as the child's birth certificate with mother's name on it.

My ex wife is Thai. He was born before I married her and only became eligible for a passport when I married her. If I had remained un-married he would not be classed as British by descent and could not apply for passport. The divorce and child custody papers prove I was married to his mother and therefore he is entitled to a passport , going by the home office rules

My son was born out of wedlock in Thailand and he got a British passport no problem.

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