Thailand, air-con and café culture

[nisakiman]

I oftren find myself wondering why in a country like Thailand, with its warm climate, there has never evolved a café culture like in the Southern Med countries of Europe. I'm currently in Bangkok, and for the most part the only places to sit down and have a cup of coffee or a beer or a snack are in air-conditioned malls. I personally hate air-con, and avoid it whenever I can, but here in Thailand it's ubiquitous. And always turned down much too low. Even my wife, who loves air-con, complains about the temperature in the BTS, MRT and the malls and restaurants / coffee shops.

Earlier today, we were in Siam, looking for somewhwere to sit down and have a drink and a snack, preferably without air-con. An almost impossible task. On our wanderings, we walked through a large, pedestrianised square, a couple of blocks in from the Novotel (I think - I wasn't paying much attention), and it was just an empty, concrete wasteland with some shops round the edge. If that square had been in central Athens, most the shops would have been turned into café bars, there would be tables, chairs and umbrellas everywhere and it would be heaving, really buzzing with activity. Instead, there were knots of smokers standing around on the corners because they had nowhere to go. Given that male smoking prevalence in Thailand is close to 40%, I can't believe that someone hasn't realised what a massive market there is for outdoor cafés.

Are the Thais really missing a trick here, or is there some other reason I haven't thought of?

I know it gets very hot in the summer, but so it does in Greece, too. Summer temperatures are regularly in the high thirties centigrade. The bars just put fans around the area. The Greeks would much rather sit outside than in. Indeed, even in winter, when temps are below 10C, you'll still see them sitting outside drinking their coffee.

So why hasn't Thailand got thousands of outside venues? I don't mean like street food stalls, I'm talking about comfortable, upmarket café bars.

[ThePlant]

Well right now the weather is akin to that of Southern Med Europe, however in 4 or so more weeks you won't be able to walk ten yards without rivers of swazz flooding down your crack...Nor can be the hotter weather be nice for sitting roadside for either. Add to that the rancid air pollution in many urban areas and the picture starts to complete itself....

I agree with you whole heartedly though. I think the open air is wasted here at times, especially riversides which seem to be overlooked as nice places for bars, restaurants in many places.

[Pomthai]

The primary difference is humidity. Simple as that.

[thailiketoo]

They are called beer bars and there are thousands of them.

[nisakiman]

They are called beer bars and there are thousands of them.

Around Siam? I didn't spot any. And are they comfortable, upmarket places? Where you can get a decent coffee and a nice snack? All the beer bars I've been to in Thailand have been distinctly downmarket, and not very comfortable.

Well right now the weather is akin to that of Southern Med Europe...

I can assure you that it gets a hell of a lot hotter than this during the summer in Athens. 40C+ is not uncommon, and 35 - 38 is the norm. Perhaps not quite as humid as here, but not far off sometimes. And Athens sits in a bit of a bowl and is as polluted as here - the traffic is terrible. But the Greeks still have thousands of nice outdoor café areas where you can sit comfortably with an Ouzo and meze (or coffee and toasted sandwich, if you prefer) and watch the world go by. And in the more upmarket areas like Kolonaki they charge a fortune (€5 for an espresso coffee, anyone?), and yet they are still heaving, year round.

I don't think the weather is very much more extreme here than it is in the southern med, and in Greece they have these fans which blow a fine mist of water in front of the fan, which doesn't make you wet, but makes the airstream from the fan much cooler. They work really well.

I'm quite sure that if someone was to open a nice café bar in this square I was in today, with comfortable seating, lots of plants dotted around, plenty of large umbrellas for shade and a good range of drinks and snacks, they would make an absolute killing.

Edited January 19, 2015 by nisakiman

[AnotherOneAmerican]

In CM they have 4 or 5 in every street.

[YeahSiam]

Sitting in the sun doesn't really appeal

to the locals for well-documented reasons.

Edited January 19, 2015 by YeahSiam

[His Masters Voice]

From the Original Post, 'I can't believe that someone hasn't realised what a massive market there is for outdoor cafés.'

There only is a 'massive market' if the original assumption holds true.

Apparently, it doesn't.

Sitting outside in an non-airconditioned space is not aspirational for your average Thai, young or old.

Nor is there an alfresco style café culture.

What works in the West, doesn't always have appeal in the East.

Why, in the West, is a large diamond of great value, while in Thailand, a large gold chain is an object of desireability?

Both may have equal value, but differing desirability, depending on what country you are in.

IMHO, that's my Business viewpoint on the question.

OH ... I've also frozen inside a BTS carriage when egressing from an outlying Station, brrrrrrrrr!

[kannot]

perhaps thais aint so dumb as to throw money at overpriced drinks?

[ThePlant]

I can assure you that it gets a hell of a lot hotter than this during the summer in Athens. 40C+ is not uncommon, and 35 - 38 is the norm. Perhaps not quite as humid as here, but not far off sometimes.

You sort of answered your own question there. Humidity is the key. Even in high temps in the med, hit the shade and you're already cooler, not forgetting the nice wind systems which benefit the Med such as the Meltemi which we used to get a lot in Kos and Kriti.

[thailiketoo]

They are called beer bars and there are thousands of them.

Around Siam? I didn't spot any. And are they comfortable, upmarket places? Where you can get a decent coffee and a nice snack? All the beer bars I've been to in Thailand have been distinctly downmarket, and not very comfortable.

Well right now the weather is akin to that of Southern Med Europe...

I can assure you that it gets a hell of a lot hotter than this during the summer in Athens. 40C+ is not uncommon, and 35 - 38 is the norm. Perhaps not quite as humid as here, but not far off sometimes. And Athens sits in a bit of a bowl and is as polluted as here - the traffic is terrible. But the Greeks still have thousands of nice outdoor café areas where you can sit comfortably with an Ouzo and meze (or coffee and toasted sandwich, if you prefer) and watch the world go by. And in the more upmarket areas like Kolonaki they charge a fortune (€5 for an espresso coffee, anyone?), and yet they are still heaving, year round.

I don't think the weather is very much more extreme here than it is in the southern med, and in Greece they have these fans which blow a fine mist of water in front of the fan, which doesn't make you wet, but makes the airstream from the fan much cooler. They work really well.

I'm quite sure that if someone was to open a nice café bar in this square I was in today, with comfortable seating, lots of plants dotted around, plenty of large umbrellas for shade and a good range of drinks and snacks, they would make an absolute killing.

Pattaya has 300 and Bangkok 1000. I think the last time it was Siam was 1946. So maybe not so many then.

[nisakiman]

Sitting outside in an non-airconditioned space is not aspirational for your average Thai, young or old.

Nor is there an alfresco style café culture.

What works in the West, doesn't always have appeal in the East.

It's odd that you should say that, because about 6 - 7 years ago we were living in Ari (during the summer months), and there was a café / bar / restaurant where I would often meet my wife after she finished work. It had a smallish enclosed (and air-conditioned) central core, with some seating and the bar and kitchen, and was surrounded on two (maybe three, I don't recollect) sides with a wide verandah which had tables and seating and oscillating fans bolted to the pillars. It wasn't cheap, but it was always busy, and the majority of the people sitting outside were what I would have called 'aspirational' Thais - thirty-something professional types, both male and female.

Sadly, it has disappeared now. A couple of days ago we went to have a bite at Lau Lau, the fish restaurant just round the corner from Ari (one of the best in Bangkok to my mind, although in a distinctly unglamorous location!), and went looking for our old haunt to have a pre-prandial drink. There is now a multi-storey condo on the corner, and the bar is lost forever.

However, I still maintain that if a café bar of the type I suggested were to open in that soulless square I mentioned in the OP in Siam, it would attract more business than it could cope with. Humidity notwithstanding and 'aspirational' types notwithstanding. Does anybody think that the 40% odd of male smokers actually like going out to the street to smoke a cigarette when they are out for a drink? Or would they rather sit in a nice (if not air-con freezing) location and be able to light up without leaving the table?

I know what I'd prefer (although I am biased, hating air-con as I do ).

[sipi]

The market and culture aren't here. There aren't many open air stalls on Mykonos selling sticky rice and chickens feet.

[DP25]

The worst thing about Thailand is the constant, never ending unbearable heat. The southern half of the country is unlivable without aircon, while the northern half is ONLY unlivable for half of the year.

The only reason I ever want to be someplace without aircon during the day is for the price. At night, near a beach or a river or someplace high that gets a breeze, it can be nice outside. But under no circumstance would I pay upmarket prices to sweat my balls in 35 degree heat and 90% humidity in the middle of the day when I could be sitting in a nice air conditioned cafe, bar, or restaraunt. 90% of people agree with me, which is why they only sit outside during the day to eat their 30 baht noodle soup.

[fey]

they dont care about standing on the dirty corner spitting and smoking. thats whats normal.

a comfortable situation for most thais esp in bkk is being inside an air con car or indoor restaurant. being inside with air con is a status situation, just like sipping a drink on the beach or having a coffee outside would be in another country.

if the air con is really low/cold its like saying "im the man, i dont care how much its costing if im comfortable etc". to be seen sprinting down the road with air con on high and closed windows free is just like a rich jerk in america driving a convertible on a sunny day.

its not something thats easy to unlearn. if you like sipping margaritas on the patio or getting sun at the beach your probably not going to flip to liking air con mcdonalds. at least thats how i feel about it.

Edited January 19, 2015 by fey

[Kitsune]

I agree with you

15 years ago everyone was doing without air con and we were very happy.

Then came mass tourism and no one could do without it.

[northernboy]

In CM they have 4 or 5 in every street.

He said up market. Think you may have lived here in CNX too long to remember what up market really is. Sorry maybe just a American thing to think the street's edge is up market.

[claffey]

Your complaining that Thailand is not the same as Greece! Why don't you just move to Greece so!!

[dotpoom]

Myself and "she who must be obeyed" like to drive around Thailand at regular intervals, ....the part i look forward to most on our "jaunts" is pulling into the coffee shops at service stations {garages, as they used to be known before we got all Hi-So) having a cappuccino and watching the world go by.

[ToddinChonburi]

Many coffe shops have patios to sit on but drinking hot coffee on a 95 degree day outside is got to be nuts. I loving sweating my ass off over a bowl of Tum yum .

[SoiBiker]

perhaps thais aint so dumb as to throw money at overpriced drinks?

Guess you haven't been down Thong Lor recently.

[bheard]

Out of BKK you find just about everywhere open air restaurants, but no coffee or doughnuts in 'em. Many coffee shops too, but usually air conditioned, and not the same as you find in western countries.

The place is just different, that's all. Suck it up.

[seancbk]

Bangkok has many many places with gardens you can sit in, some really spectacularly nice places.

Just a couple you might want to try

Hemingways - just inside Sukhumvit 14

Coffee Alley in the Garden - just down Sukhumvit Soi 16

Cottage 66 - Sukhumvit soi 66 (bit far out but a beautiful place

Suggest you Google each of the above for details, which are easy to find.

You might want to Google this which will give you a great article on the subject "nomadicnotes.com bangkok cafes" (I don't think I can post the actual URL)

Edited January 20, 2015 by seancbk

[KhnomKhnom]

Ten yrs in Fla taught me to seek the coldest air con mall, but I find none in Thailand... the walkway areas are too hot for me and most of the shops, with doors, are still oppressively hot to me. I dislike air con, but I dislike sweating like a pig more. The SkyTrain is a frosty blessing to me, aaahhhhh, good.

The direct answer to ur question is that Thai do not like to congregate with a bunch of people they do not know in a public place and IN THE SUN. They prefer getting with FAMILY anywhere IN THE SHADE. Thai think air con is up scale, kinda HiSo, and thus want to be in it as much as possible, even if shivering.

Being definitely not Greek, Thai are being slow to like even Starbucks,which is soldiering on, apparently in it for the long term building of the culture which would really support their biz.

My wife's convenience store/car wash/covered parking now has added a coffee shop... indoors with a fan and open air, no door.... uncovered outside seating also available. Come on over.

[Robert24]

actually there are tons of restaurants where you can sit outside and eat, be it along rivers in cities etc, be it in Bangkok or around the country. Thailand has a lot more than other countries in Asia. In Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Japan etc you won't find people sit outside in a restaurant, everyone likes to enjoy air con whereas in Thailand many restaurants have outdoor areas.

[avander]

My wife is a qualified Barista who had her training in Sydney. She now runs a European style cafe in Khao Talo near Pattaya and makes great hot or iced Coffees, Teas and various other drinks and fresh food items. As we are not in the main tourist areas it's a mixed patronage and while the Thai don't like the sun they certainly don't seem to mind the heat as long as it isn't scorching and too humid.

Some people prefer the hustle and bustle of the main street we are on and enjoy their coffee and/or food undercover outside. Others, prefer the cooler (A/C) and quieter inside so it's up to them.

Come and visit if you like.

[smokie36]

I know a great place but I'm afraid I'm not aharing it....on a side street nice and peaceful with great coffee.

Mmmmm!

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Sala Cafe, Mae Rim, Chiang Mai, food, coffee, cakes.

About 60-70bht per item.

Edited January 20, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[wow64]

There are only 2 months of the year you would want to be outside drinking coffee.. I just returned from a Coffee shop and nothing more relaxing then a nice coffee with the sound of Motorbikes with no exhaust and tuk tuks.

[smotherb]

I live in Hatyai. There are literally scores of nice little cafe-bars and coffee shops which offer drinks and snacks as well as outdoor and a/c indoor seating; and many are up-scale. My complaint is the coffe shops do not open until noon or after and I like my coffee in the morning.