17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[FritsSikkink]

Thousands of us totally disagree. The letter of the law nonsense means little to most of us

Hope you get caught soon too.

I was only expressing support for those that provide an outstanding service, and do not follow the letter of the law. Sorry, but I have never been a "letter of the law" sort of guy.

Just a fancy way of saying you support criminals and don't respect the law.

[John1thru10]

Yep, I freely admit that I get hacked off when I see knuckle draggers hopping off the plane, treating Thai laws as a joke, verbally abusing the locals who don't understand their every shouted demand, stumbling around drunk at all hours in their best Sunday wife beaters and cut-off shorts (in the CBD of the capital city, no less), sticking their thingies into every hole they can find, and then wonder why so many Thais have little or no respect for foreigners.

Frankly, I don't blame them.

Like it or not, your behavior does affect those of us who choose to live here. It affects the way we'll be treated by the Thais who are disgusted by the behavior of the knuckle draggers, and justifiably hacked off that they have to accept that kind of behavior because "they need the tourist dollars".

That is an incredibly judgmental description for you to be hurling onto strangers! I'm sorry, but what you wrote at this guy is just...wow. If you want to make fun of something somebody says, I clearly get that. At least hope they have a good day, somewhere in your mind.

This long description of 'knuckle dragging blah blah blah' - that's a dangerous way to think. Take it from an old man who's gone there before in life. You end up just fighting with an image you've concocted in your mind, and not actually interacting with what you think you are.

I hope you have a good evening, too. But your statement sounds WAY too angry, friend. Sounds like time to take a step back and remember that there are lots and lots of different kinds of people out there. You don't know who you're writing that description 'about' in reality. You could have a much better time if you were more open to who they really are, than this image you've created.

Edited January 23, 2015 by John1thru10

[AlQaholic]

Just a question in this context; if the foreigners had been working for a company outside Thailand, earning their income outside Thailand but being in Thailand, does that require work permit??

[richard10365]

Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them.

Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police.

All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working.

[Graham8888]

Dear me, with all the human and drug trafficking going on, child exploitation, slave conditions for fishermen, deaths in the south, murders on various 'idyllic' islands, harassment of tourists by bent cops, they bust a handful of foreigners teaching English to outsiders on the internet! Just no hope really is there.

Dave Austin: I totally agree with you.

The Police need to use more discretion when it comes to such non issues and non important matters such as some foreigners working here in Thailand while they do not have all the proper documents....

They did not bust them because they were breaking the law per say..as they do not care about that aspect...rather they busted them so they could learn just how much money is being generated and figure out if it is worth while letting the business continue and make a percent off the business.....and or how much money they can extort out of the foriegners.

If that is not the case..... then occasionally the police will enforce the laws to male themselves look good.

Besides, the enforcement of the work permits is the responsibility of the Labor Department...not the police while the immigration police department, specifically, and not just any old police headquarters in the area that gets wind of some minor infractions of the law and a victimless crime that does not warrant any worthwhile attentions on the part of the Authorities.

As I said before......the onus is on the Thai owners or who ever the owner of the company is to arrange all the proper and necessary and required documentation for the foreign worker....FIRST

If the Owner or management of the said company does not do their part FIRST...then the foreigner can not do their part and obtain what is required ...by the letter of the law ...that they enforce on the foreigners only ...but never enforce the laws on the Thai owners or Thai management of the company.

They never fine or hold the Thai companies or the Thai owners or the Thai management responsible or accountable for breaking the related laws while having foreigners work with them or for them while the foreigners do not have the proper Visa or proper extension of stay because they did not do their part ..FIRST.

I would like to see the owners of the company take some responsibility for their complicity.

Cheers

Here here - if you employ illegal labour in the uk without carrying the necessary checks you will be prosecuted and have to pay up to £5,000 per employee. If the law was carried out here , just about every construction site, fruit/ veg company , etc. would be closed down tomorrow - not moaning about the rules just the prejudice.

[finy]

Never read the whole tread, but a few months ago a dozen 'digital pikeys' got busted at a co-working space and hauled to immigration.

There was a mix up and immigration thought they were working for co-working space, but after they explained to them how they make their money they were let go.

I think they even recieved a goodie bag for bringing US dollars into Thailand to spend inside the ecomony, but so far this has been unconfirmed.

[Graham8888]

Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them.

Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police.

All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working.

Still doesn't change the fact that it is job for immigration police and labour dept. what were the RTP there for - unpaid tea money ?!

[AlQaholic]

@richard10365 thanks for very clear and understandable explanation, always wondered about that. So technically even a programmer on holiday doing a bit of coding may be working illegally then. Some grey areas comes to mind (artists, scientists)...

Edited January 23, 2015 by AlQaholic

[siampolee]

richard10365 post #.

Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them.

Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police.

All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working.

Blimey and people think or though Yingluck was breaking the law hence her impeachment and pending prosecution.

Better get the gallows ready for those poor souls in Chang Mai.

[JoeLing]

Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them.

Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police.

All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working.

.

Finally, someone with something to say.

Spot on, best posting so far.

[beb]

Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them.

Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police.

All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working.

for all I know, this may be right. but there's an entire industry openly operating around the world in violation of the rules you're citing.

[ev1lchris]

Any word on their punishment?

[jhwest]

Prhaps they should look at the High School in Danmakhamtia and sure there must be a teacher who has not got a work permit and also some Thai teachers not got a degree either.

[JoeLing]

Any word on their punishment?

Make'em learn French

[Sviss Geez]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

"They were not committing a crime,"

"I know, you can't work without a WP,"

Make up your mind.

"...they were harming nobody."

Perhaps they were harming those who paid to be taught English properly. I'm sure that if they were properly qualified to do that job they'd have had work permits.

[bobthomas]

Dear me, with all the human and drug trafficking going on, child exploitation, slave conditions for fishermen, deaths in the south, murders on various 'idyllic' islands, harassment of tourists by bent cops, they bust a handful of foreigners teaching English to outsiders on the internet! Just no hope really is there.

You forgot to mention the rampant abuse, sale, and corruption associated with the Methamphetamine pandemic.

well....and probably a few dozen other things as well

b

[Sviss Geez]

Anyone know what type of work permit they could apply for in order to work 'online'?

The sort of WP that allows them to work from the office that employed them, the online bit is incidental.

[AlQaholic]

Any word on their punishment?

Make'em learn French

Their diabolic punishment will be to teach English to Thai student for a year

[chiang mai]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Rubbish and nonesnece, it was a crime, read your visa restrictions, end of!

[richard10365]

@richard10365 thanks for very clear and understandable explanation, always wondered about that. So technically even a programmer on holiday doing a bit of coding may be working illegally then. Some grey areas comes to mind (artists, scientists)...

There is another report where immigration met with local Chamber of Commerce to clarify some immigration issues.

According to the report the question was asked, "What if I want to work in Thailand?" in which immigration replied,"If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally. If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

SOURCE

[TheFishman1]

Wow another Big Raid in Chaing Mai real bug Fish lol

[gemguy]

Dear me, with all the human and drug trafficking going on, child exploitation, slave conditions for fishermen, deaths in the south, murders on various 'idyllic' islands, harassment of tourists by bent cops, they bust a handful of foreigners teaching English to outsiders on the internet! Just no hope really is there.

Dave Austin: I totally agree with you.

The Police need to use more discretion when it comes to such non issues and non important matters such as some foreigners working here in Thailand while they do not have all the proper documents....

They did not bust them because they were breaking the law per say..as they do not care about that aspect...rather they busted them so they could learn just how much money is being generated and figure out if it is worth while letting the business continue and make a percent off the business.....and or how much money they can extort out of the foriegners.

If that is not the case..... then occasionally the police will enforce the laws to male themselves look good.

Besides, the enforcement of the work permits is the responsibility of the Labor Department...not the police while the immigration police department, specifically, and not just any old police headquarters in the area that gets wind of some minor infractions of the law and a victimless crime that does not warrant any worthwhile attentions on the part of the Authorities.

As I said before......the onus is on the Thai owners or who ever the owner of the company is to arrange all the proper and necessary and required documentation for the foreign worker....FIRST

If the Owner or management of the said company does not do their part FIRST...then the foreigner can not do their part and obtain what is required ...by the letter of the law ...that they enforce on the foreigners only ...but never enforce the laws on the Thai owners or Thai management of the company.

They never fine or hold the Thai companies or the Thai owners or the Thai management responsible or accountable for breaking the related laws while having foreigners work with them or for them while the foreigners do not have the proper Visa or proper extension of stay because they did not do their part ..FIRST.

I would like to see the owners of the company take some responsibility for their complicity.

Cheers

Here here - if you employ illegal labour in the uk without carrying the necessary checks you will be prosecuted and have to pay up to £5,000 per employee. If the law was carried out here , just about every construction site, fruit/ veg company , etc. would be closed down tomorrow - not moaning about the rules just the prejudice.

They have to make it easier and more streamlined so Thai companies do not also become embroiled in the relevant laws.

The answer to the problem is not raiding companies and going about a witch hunt and then holding only the foreigners responsible for minor infractions of the laws...as compared to far more serious illegal undertakings.

They do not make it easy while the Thai employers also recognize this and they also complain about the archaic labor laws and immigrations requirements to the point where they deliberately avoid doing their part first with the famous Thai mentality that says: "Never Mind"....and that includes, "Do Not Worry" and that in includes ..."We will deal with the problem when it occurs...until then ..be happy"

Without a doubt ...if the Thais had their end of things organized and properly arranged I can assure you nearly all foreigners, probably 95% of the foreigners, would then do their part to comply with the rules and regulations...even if it cost them say 20 to 30,000 baht ..if that be the case.

But they can not do their part unless the Thais or owners of the company do their part first.

There is no way around it ....so the end result is the Thai company does not do their part first so the foreigners can not do their part second while they decide to work anyhow and take a chance while the Thai employers ignore the ramifications and encourage the foreigner to work anyhow...... while working illegally.

Then they conveniently blame the foreigner.

Cheers

[Mudcrab]

Welcome to NK Folks

Why do you say this?

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Australia without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Canada without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in the USA without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in many other countries without a permit.

You will be very disappointed. Then deported.

[wolf5370]

if you can not abide by the thai rules and law, and can not afford to live here, go back to your own country, this is there country

If you are here, then you are not abiding by their rules either - see definition of work with respect to immigration law - so are you leaving us so soon?

[micmichd]

Since they are monitoring everythng on the eagle look out for lese-majeste offences (Buddha forbid!) - their dragnet might catch other fish as well.

Their 'dragnet' is a database, and surveillance includes Data Mining access procedures to that database. Don't know at the moment if Thai privacy laws cover Data Mining, does anyone know?

Edited January 23, 2015 by micmichd

[ravip]

Does all other countries allow to work online similarly (without harming anybody) without a work permit?

Where?

[JingerBen]

@richard10365 thanks for very clear and understandable explanation, always wondered about that. So technically even a programmer on holiday doing a bit of coding may be working illegally then. Some grey areas comes to mind (artists, scientists)...

There is another report where immigration met with local Chamber of Commerce to clarify some immigration issues.

According to the report the question was asked, "What if I want to work in Thailand?" in which immigration replied,"If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally. If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

SOURCE

I think an immigration official gave a talk recently to a meeting of the Chiang Mai Expats Club.

This issue may have been raised, but whether or not it was fully clarified I don't know.

[Mudcrab]

This English teacher type posts are always good.

All the "professional" English teachers snobbishly knocking the TEFLer's, and everyone complaining about the poor english language skills of the Thais after decades of English instruction by professionals.

Wouldn't surprise me to see the headlines read:-

"17 foreign English teachers arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally. Ten thousand legal English teachers in country wide investigation charged with fraud".

[Sviss Geez]

......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................

Online isn't the issue, these are people working for a company in a large office with numerous other employees. They are not working from home online

[malt25]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

"should speech no fluent english only broken english"... You'd be an expert on that.

Can't you just have one more drink.... fall off your stool... & fade off into oblivion ????

Just hoping.....Cheers..... Mal.