Prayut and military may have misjudged US reaction

[soicee]

What a laugh. The USA's foreign policies are & have always been hypocritical. Being a democracy was never a basis for doing business just a good excuse when they wanted to bomb or invade a sovereign state that happened to be non-democratic (as defined by the USA). If democracy was so central to their core values they would be not be toadying to the gulf states, in particular Saudi Arabia which like most of the gulf state, is totally controlled by the ruling clan (family). Saudi Arabia & other gulf states finance all the fundamentalist madrassas (religious schools) in the ME & Asia as well financing jihadist movements like ISIS & Al-Qaeda. Most of the 911 hijackers (16 of 19) were Saudis.

[Nickymaster]

I'd say the US has quite a lot to be concerned with before Thailand. IMO they are making the right noises. Would be a catastrophe for Thailand if they throw their hat into the ring with China

Please elaborate on last sentence.

[nsimmons]

I was on the fence about the Coup until they started cleaning up the taxi mafia.

(arrested the mayor of Karon etc)

Then when EIGHT top cops get arrested, one "top drug enforcement cop" being caught with 800,000 Yaba

pills (in back seat of car) to me, it was obvious that the Army had no choice but to step in, as the cops/politicians

were so corrupt. One top cop had BILLIONS of Baht stashed at his house!

Apparently Singapore had to do the same about 50 years ago.

I would like to hear from those that are against the Coup, about how else they could have dealt with the rampant corruption.

Cheers,

NS

[kriswillems]

Even though the USA is 100% right they would better shut-up.
They are not helping anyone this way.
If they really want to force Thailand into a democracy they should use their economical power to do so, in stead of just using void words.

[Diplomatico]

Seems pretty obvious from the thread below that the ruling military junta misjudged the US reaction....apparently they weren't expecting the message that was delivered.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795550-us-charge-daffaires-summoned-in-protest-of-its-top-diplomats-statement/

[2fishin2]

No, Danny Russel did not meet with Prayuth, because Danny Russel is not a diplomat. He is a staffer promoted into a diplomatic position, and he needs to be immediately recalled. By his own admission, when he was appointed to the post in July 2013, he had only worked as a White House staffer, and had never left the four walls of his office. He's a disgrace to both the U.S. and to the diplomatic community. As a U.S. citizen, I am embarrassed by his behavior.

You might be a US citizen but, you dont know policy and politics. Dont think for one moment that the US would send a "rep" to another country to represent the US view without his boss giving him instuctions about what to say and who to visit.

This visit was a clear message to Thailand about who and what they support. A visit to an democratically elected ex PM and a university sends a clear msg.

The US is not happy with this country right now and for good reason....

[Bob12345]

IMHO the coup occurred when it did due to the arms caches being found and their perceived intended use. If that was allowed to occur, it would have been much more difficult for the army to step in pursuant to your comments. As you will recall, Gen. Prayuth tried numerous times to get all sides to talk, but when it became obvious that discussions wouldn't work and the threat of a civil war was elevated, he rightly took action.

Hence, I agree with your ultimate reason, but don't rule out the importance of "innocent protesters being killed" as it relates to its timing.

1. The arms caches were found after the coup, so you cannot state they triggered the coup.

2. the general tried numerous times to get all sides to talk, that is true, as long as "numerous times" means a couple of days. Did he really think the political problems of this country could be solved in days, after months and months of protests and both sides digging in? He also promised to stop the violence in the south within a year, why did he not promise to stop that in a day or 2, or a week if it is so easy?

3. hope the general has more patience with anything else in life before determining if discussions would work. Some agreements are made after years of negotiations, he gives up after a couple of days.

4. "innocent protesters being killed" and "timing", interesting 2 words in one sentence. How many people were killed the hours before the coup took place? And how many had already been killed? I can understand that when 20 people die in a shootout the army steps in to take control, but in fact there was not more violence right before the coup than weeks before the coup.

[EyesWideOpen]

Funny stuff. I have said it before, and I will say it again. Thailand has time and

time again proven itself to be a bit of a backstabbing ally for America, so at this

point I feel America has little interest in Thailand, and in the future it will play

no part in America's " strategy" in South East Asia. This reality is just beginning

to dawn on Thailand's " leadership". Thailand has slowly shifted to China's

corner which is not endearing itself to America either. My guess is we will see

a policy shift of America towards Vietnam, who hate the Chinese. First tip off

will be when America builds a naval base in Vietnam......

As Vietnam is a Communist state, wouldn't the US have to conquer them first?

And bring them American-style Democracy.

That didn't go too well last time they tried.

Your grasp of world affairs seems a bit weak. Let me help you out with an

old saying," the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/06/19/door-may-open-to-us-at-former-vietnam-war-hub.html

"“There have been remarkable strides already made in last few years, and it’s been very rapid since 2010 in terms of U.S.-Vietnam military relationships,” said Christian Le Mière, senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. “Continued assertiveness by China in the South China Sea will only further convince the Vietnamese that they should be expanding their international alliances, and that includes the United States.”

[Bob12345]

I was on the fence about the Coup until they started cleaning up the taxi mafia.

(arrested the mayor of Karon etc)

Then when EIGHT top cops get arrested, one "top drug enforcement cop" being caught with 800,000 Yaba

pills (in back seat of car) to me, it was obvious that the Army had no choice but to step in, as the cops/politicians

were so corrupt. One top cop had BILLIONS of Baht stashed at his house!

Apparently Singapore had to do the same about 50 years ago.

I would like to hear from those that are against the Coup, about how else they could have dealt with the rampant corruption.

Cheers,

NS

How to deal with rampant corruption:

I would suggest they should follow the example of Singapore. For some reason you already seem to be under the impression Thailand is currently following that example, but I would say Thailand is going the exact opposite direction. Singapore introduced rule of law and accountability to tackle corruption. They did their best to make court independent and gave corruption enforcement officers more power. They also started to fight corruption at the top: so do not chase the little man on the street but start with setting an example at the top.

For Thailand:

- courts are not independent as they are a tool for the military (old elite) to get what they want. I do not see any change in this in the past year or any proposal or discussion to fix this

- press freedom and freedom of speech would help with accountability. In the past months the press freedom and freedom of speech have deteriorated significantly with a PM who scolds journalists, send opponents away for "re-education", and walks out angry when people ask him about his wealth

- more power to people investigating corruption: for some reason all anti-corruption officers are being directed by the government to go after opponents. This has happened before in Thailand with different government and it is happening again. I do not see improvements and there are no discussions on how to fix this

- starting at the top to wipe out corruption: your dear PM sets the example clearly: he has unexplained wealth but uses his power to not answer questions. He should be the first one to come clean and give total openness about where his wealth comes from. Once he has done that he can demand the same from everybody else below him. The top-brass in Thailand seems extremely wealthy compared to their monthly pay-checks, that might be a nice place to start but for some reason i think it wont be at the top of his list.

You give some examples about news stories that convince you corruption is finally being tackled. Maybe you should read some newspapers from the time the previous government was in place (or any previous government) and you will find similar articles. The point is that small improvements are made here and there, but not enough to tackle the overall problem. You can arrest one corrupt cop here, but another corrupt cop appears in another region.

[CaptHaddock]

Come on. For all those posting about the US supporting democracy think about who they have supported in the past & continue to do so. Obama has just been to the "hub" of middle east democarcy, Saudi Arabia, most recently known for sentencing a man to 10 years in prison & 1,000 lashes for criticisng some clerics. Supporting Saudi is all about oil & using them as a buffer in a country that is the very antithesis of democracy. If the Vietnam war was happening now the US would not have said boo about the coup.

That's right. The US supports democracy around the world to the extent that doing so does not interfere with its national interests, which is frequently. In those cases the US reserves the right to support the likes of Pinochet, Pol Pot, Diem/Thieu/Ky, Franco, Saddam, etc.

Nevertheless, in this case the US is on the right side vis-a-vis Prayut and the rest of the thugs. Symbolic gestures do matter, but in the end the US will neither cut off military support for nor establish a trade embargo against the anti-democracy clique in Thailand.

[kriswillems]

The real reason for the coup was not the violence, if you're believe that you're fooling yourself.

In the whole protests less people died than the number of people that die in the Thai traffic in just one day.

The establishment in Thailand didn't like the way Thailand was moving - that was the reason for the coup.

If the establishment was right or wrong, that's another question.

[than]

Very amazing react from US :

Egypt : 2012 Mr Mohamed Morsi (Muslin brotherhood) democratically elected Egyptian president , 2013 topple by a coup of Gen AL Sissi, US turn blind and Al Sissi become best friend of Obama

Thailand, Yingluck elected prime minister, after become caretaker prime minister (not elected) topple by court in corruption affair, her regime kill children and protester.... The coup come when no elected government was in place... US was angry.... Why? perhaps US would prefer that YL and her red mob try to topple all institution in Thailand to pave the way to a regime who comply with US wish

[X pat]

No, Danny Russel did not meet with Prayuth, because Danny Russel is not a diplomat. He is a staffer promoted into a diplomatic position, and he needs to be immediately recalled. By his own admission, when he was appointed to the post in July 2013, he had only worked as a White House staffer, and had never left the four walls of his office. He's a disgrace to both the U.S. and to the diplomatic community. As a U.S. citizen, I am embarrassed by his behavior.

Another Oboma BO-BO.

[FangFerang]

No, Danny Russel did not meet with Prayuth, because Danny Russel is not a diplomat. He is a staffer promoted into a diplomatic position, and he needs to be immediately recalled. By his own admission, when he was appointed to the post in July 2013, he had only worked as a White House staffer, and had never left the four walls of his office. He's a disgrace to both the U.S. and to the diplomatic community. As a U.S. citizen, I am embarrassed by his behavior.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect on every point, except your being embarrassed. Russell was part of over half dozen diplomatic missions that went overseas from the US, he only lacked a title, not a history of participation. Secondly, the US does have a selective memory of military governments based on strategic location (Egypt versus the Shah of Iran versus General Prayuth), which is more embarrassing than anyone Obama appointed anywhere.

Getting smarmy with China made a bad situation worse here. Thailand's neighbors are less than thrilled their citizens are slave fishermen here. Thailand's neighbors are less than thrilled that Thais consider all non-Thais inferior (though the Koreans have a good laugh about it, as well as the Filipinos when discussing English proficiency and scholastic achievement).

What a mess!

[CaptHaddock]

I was on the fence about the Coup until they started cleaning up the taxi mafia.

(arrested the mayor of Karon etc)

Then when EIGHT top cops get arrested, one "top drug enforcement cop" being caught with 800,000 Yaba

pills (in back seat of car) to me, it was obvious that the Army had no choice but to step in, as the cops/politicians

were so corrupt. One top cop had BILLIONS of Baht stashed at his house!

Apparently Singapore had to do the same about 50 years ago.

I would like to hear from those that are against the Coup, about how else they could have dealt with the rampant corruption.

Cheers,

NS

Very, very naive to imagine this coup had anything to do with corruption. Indeed, the military has long been the most corrupt organization in Thailand. According to international bodies that track corruption, the rate of corruption went up in Thailand after the 2006 coup, the last time the military took direct control, and the same thing is happening now. Just like Xi Jin Ping's purge-in-the-name-of-stopping-corruption: corruption won't stop at all, but it will end up in other hands.

How do you imagine such a high proportion of the 1600 generals of the Thai military, including Prayut, got to be millionaires? On their $40,000/year salary?

[seajae]

the US is becoming redundant thanks to some of its current policies and garbage leadership. Linking themselves with the corrupt shins and ptp is no surprise as they have rocks in their head. They are very quickly disenchanting Thailand from their influence and they are totally to blame, if China steps in to fill the void they will realize how pathetic they have been but what can you expect when the US hierachy all have their heads firmly up their ar**s

[fvw53]

Let us think of the next presidential elections in Nigeria :

- suppose the candidate of the "conservatives" is the son of a previous president

- suppose the election of this candidate depends on the result of a few hundred votes in one single state ...where his brother is Governor

- suppose in this single state the Minister of the Interior was a campaign manager in the candidate's party

- suppose the candidate looses the popular vote but wins the vote of the "middle men"

- suppose it all has to be decided by the Supreme Court where nearly all the candidates were appointed by the father of the candidate

What would we say : ha Africa !

But this is what happened when G.W Bush was elected in 2000 ...now the US want to teach Thailand about democracy?

They have something important in common : in both systems one cannot win elections without support of "big money"

[Kooweerup]

"He did not come to see me because they know where I come from," Prayut told reporters.

This guy is so totally full of himself. Look up Vanity in the dictionary.

noun, plural vanities.

1. PRAYUT's excessive pride in one's appearance, qualities, abilities, achievements, etc.; character or quality of being vain; conceit:

Failure to be elected was a great blow to his vanity.

You claim that Prayuth is vain; would you like to compare his level of vanity with his predecessor?

Perhaps you are mistaking pride for vanity. At least he appears to have qualities, abilities, achievements, etc

Pride is a feeling or emotion that could be both positive as well as negative. It relates to ones belief in own abilities and attractiveness. Pride is our love of our excellence or abilities, but along with this love for our own self comes the negative feelings about others.

Vanity is a feeling that has negative connotations. If you are seen as boasting about your abilities all the time or about your attractiveness in front of others, you are being self-idolatry. Vanity is considered excessive pride in one’s abilities or attractiveness.

The opposite of humility is vanity. You know you are experiencing vanity shown by someone else when he behaves in such a manner that others are not important and it is only him who is important.

Prayut is not proud he is vain, always making speeches on behalf of others, how they are supporting him and their love and devotion for him. Those that do not show full love and devotion including foreign ambassadors are summonsed or rounded up to explain or under go attitude adjustments until they do adore him and his ways. That does not show humility or pride, it displays vanity.

[Docno]

Come on. For all those posting about the US supporting democracy think about who they have supported in the past & continue to do so. Obama has just been to the "hub" of middle east democarcy, Saudi Arabia, most recently known for sentencing a man to 10 years in prison & 1,000 lashes for criticisng some clerics. Supporting Saudi is all about oil & using them as a buffer in a country that is the very antithesis of democracy. If the Vietnam war was happening now the US would not have said boo about the coup.

Everything you say is true, but I suspect that the Americans would quickly switch support in Saudi if a viable, non-Islamist, democratic 'third force' were to emerge. Look what happened with Gaddafi. He'd come in from the cold and everything seemed cozy with the US and other western governments. But as soon as a viable insurgency emerged with some factions declaring that they wanted to bring democracy to Libya, Gaddafi quickly became the bad guy again. [That whole thing hasn't worked out so well, has it].

The bottom line is that the US will jump into bed with dictators (or worse) when it serves their interests, but they're also going to show their displeasure when an ally or trading partner steps backward from democracy. Yes, it's hypocritical in a sense, but that's politics (or realpolitik).

[NeverSure]

I look at the alternative -- the two major 'political' factions engaging in 'democracy' using extreme violence with M79 Grenade launchers, sniper rifles, bloody attacks, bombs --- and somehow the Junta is worse in the eyes of some -- because they took away democracy from the people?... Are you guys joking ? or smoking? What Democracy was taken? There was no Democracy in Thailand in the last year prior to the Junta - it was mob violence. If any one of you here on this thread think that mob violence - intimidation by use of indiscriminate bombs, use of sniper rifles, firing long distance grenades using an M79 launcher is Democracy - then you are brain dead. Children were killed in the name of the Democracy you defend.

It is the police force and military's job to protect people and instituitions. They failed as always. We also know who was backing whom.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

Was Ben talking about Thailand or Homeland Security?

What about Homeland Security? Are you buying into the persistent myths that are promulgated by many?

Be careful. This is a trick question for those who are rumor mongers.

[NeverSure]

Funny stuff. I have said it before, and I will say it again. Thailand has time and

time again proven itself to be a bit of a backstabbing ally for America, so at this

point I feel America has little interest in Thailand, and in the future it will play

no part in America's " strategy" in South East Asia. This reality is just beginning

to dawn on Thailand's " leadership". Thailand has slowly shifted to China's

corner which is not endearing itself to America either. My guess is we will see

a policy shift of America towards Vietnam, who hate the Chinese. First tip off

will be when America builds a naval base in Vietnam......

As Vietnam is a Communist state, wouldn't the US have to conquer them first?

And bring them American-style Democracy.

That didn't go too well last time they tried.

The US has made a commitment to move back into Subic Bay and Clark Air force base giving a huge boost to the Phil's economy, and getting a strategic location. It also has Diego Garcia and it has 11 Nimitz-class carrier groups for coverage. LINK

I don't see the US going to a communist country.

[chainarong]

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Come on. For all those posting about the US supporting democracy think about who they have supported in the past & continue to do so. Obama has just been to the "hub" of middle east democarcy, Saudi Arabia, most recently known for sentencing a man to 10 years in prison & 1,000 lashes for criticisng some clerics. Supporting Saudi is all about oil & using them as a buffer in a country that is the very antithesis of democracy. If the Vietnam war was happening now the US would not have said boo about the coup.

two wrongs don't make a right and this is wrong

Sometimes to keep the peace( try to) you attract strange bed fellows with Saudi it was the better of a bad situation than being locked out of the middle east at that time, as the US and Allies did not have many friends in that area and this continues today , Thailand is a different kettle of fish and U S friendship goes back eons ,I think you will find that one of the US major parties their emblem is a Elephant , that can be related directly back to the King of Siam at the time, however Thailand has a dark past when it comes down to loyalty 1940 - 1945 in particular, during the Vietnam war Thailand's help was invaluable however this all suited the Junta at the time as corruption was rife, the Generals loved it , in the end Thailand has always danced to a losing formula , the ball is in Thailand's court, which way they play the game is up to them. I am not from the US.

Edited January 28, 2015 by chainarong

[Thai at Heart]

I don't think there is anything to sense, it has been stated over and over again by Jen Psaki here: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/statements.html

The curious thing is that from what I can tell nothing has really changed at all between the change in the governments. Only the flow of money from the very top has been diverted.

I would really like to know why foreigners support either of the political factions, because doing so is the equivelent of liking a football club. It is meaningless, besides for sport and loyalty. I'm polite to both sides, and whenever Thai people try to drag me into a political debate, I just politely ask them "Has anything really changed in your life?" and the answer is always is "no." So, if the U.S. knew diplomacy, they would do likewise.

Unless something has actually changed for them. If so, what has changed between U.S. Thai relations that can be observed or measured in terms of trade?

Its largely impossible to support either side because they are both bent. What u can lampoon though is the hypocrisy and essential uselessness of the system that allows them to exist.

[Tony125]

What makes General P.M. Prayut Chan - O -cha think that by staging a coup the US and its allies would turn a blind eye , when the bottom line is Democracy , a properly Elected government by the People , that fundamentally is the basis that the US ,UN and Western Allies use as their platform in determination whether a country is run by a dictator or an elected leader , Thailand as far as a strategic area of influence has now been replaced by Australia with US forces now stationed permanently in the top end along with their aircraft, with Australia's over the horizon radar , there is now no need to have Thailand dithering around , simply put, Thailand is not as important as it thought it was.

Thailand is not a strategic area now as the US signed a 10 year lease agreement with the Phillippines after 8 months of negotiations ( how long ago was the coup--8 months) to return and use Subic Bay and the airfield near there. That will be a big boost to Phillippine economy with troops , ships, airplanes and personel stationed there.

[rickirs]

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What makes General P.M. Prayut Chan - O -cha think that by staging a coup the US and its allies would turn a blind eye , when the bottom line is Democracy , a properly Elected government by the People , that fundamentally is the basis that the US ,UN and Western Allies use as their platform in determination whether a country is run by a dictator or an elected leader , Thailand as far as a strategic area of influence has now been replaced by Australia with US forces now stationed permanently in the top end along with their aircraft, with Australia's over the horizon radar , there is now no need to have Thailand dithering around , simply put, Thailand is not as important as it thought it was.

Let's not forget that USA has comprehensive partnership with Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore. Malaysia is hosting US Navy aircraft and Singapore has a permanent logistic base for the 7th fleet. USA is certainly not that concern with Thailand pivoting towards China and will be only Thailand folly to cosy up to a communist state. USA is still a big economic and financial superpower. If they switch off their economic and financial ties, Thailand will be in a big black hole. We can see why a unelected leader is turning more to socialist states like China, Vietnam and Mynmar as they have much in common. Thailand will unlikely to get financial fundings and loans from the democractic west for its infrastructure projects. China will be too willing to provide the loan and influence.

Great observations. And when you consider also USA's long-term security relationship with South Korea; recent 10-year lease for its former naval facilities in Cebu, Philippines; negotiations with Vietnam for its former marine facilities at Da Nang; and Japan's request to upgrade its naval and air forces to quasi offense status - encirclement of China does not require Thailand's support.

Gen. Prayuth should not be so taken with his personal importance to the US or he'll put Thailand again on the wrong side of the Bridge over the River Kwai.

[Suffinator]

So the Americans will sit down with YL but NOT with Prayut! Says it all really doesn't it

Yes and the reason? Like it or not she was democratically elected and overthrown by an illegal coup.

We continuously admonish the Thais but it is there choice who they want in power ... yes even if that is a corrupt narcissist; they need to learn by their mistakes and indeed discover if it is such a mistake.

[MikeOboe57]

To be able to properly assess Russel´s remarks one has to scrutinize the USA´s ability to teach other countries about democracy. And what we can see here it looks rather bleak.

Even after WW2 and establishment of the UN the USA rigorously enforced the Monroe doctrine and meddled in the internal affairs of souvereign countries in Central and South America.

Here are just two examples:

When the US United Fruit Company felt inconvenienced by an impending land reform in Guatemala, President Harry Truman in 1951 authorized covert CIA action against the elected government. This culminated in 1954 in a rather pathetic coup d´etat establishing a buffoon named Castillo Armas as new President. He reversed all social decrees of the previous government including the land reform triggering a 36 year long civil war from 1960 to 1986 with 200.000 citizens killed on both sides, the majority by US trained counter insurgency military units.

Long before the USA´s 9/11, Chile had their own 9/11. In 1973, after 3 years of covert destabilizing CIA operations, the democratically elected government of President Salvador Allende was overthrown in a bloody CIA supported military coup turning the country into a military dictatorship for the next 15 years under General Augusto Pinochet. 3000 citizens lost their lives during that period and thousands more suffered imprisonment and torture.

But what about recent attempts of the USA to export its idea of democracy to other countries?

Let´s have a look at Afghanistan, the "young democracy". All that changed was that the local "chieftains", drug barons and warlords now call themselves Members of Parliament or Ministers not at least thanks to massive and widespread electoral fraud. Rule of Law is virtually nonexistent and anyone trying to speak out against the blunt and open abuse of power is quickly shown his rank in the food chain. Corruption is over the top and government officials use diplomatic luggage to routinely take large amounts of cash siphoned off aid money to the Gulf emirates and transfer them to offshore accounts. Once the foreign troops will have left, the Taliban will come back in force and most likely again establish their "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" thanks to generous support by the Pakistani armed forces, a US "ally in the war on terror".

Maybe the second attempt of the US to export democracy was more promising? Sadly no, Iraq never recovered from the US led invasion, and the "democratically elected" government understood its mandate foremost as a letter of marque to enrich themselves and harass the Sunni minority, alleged followers of the former President Saddam Hussein. And what began as insurgency against the occupying forces, thanks to Paul Bremer, turned into a vicious ethnic conflict, killing more than 150.000 civilians. The country was ripe for plucking by IS which rose to power in the wake of US attempts to fuel a minor uprising against the Syrian Government by training "moderate islamists" in dirty warfare. The country is now almost as far away from democracy as it was under Saddam Hussein, but a lot unsafer, the number of civilians killed per annum have doubled every year since 2012: 4622 - 9742 - 17049 (2014).

That leaves Libya. Another minor islamist uprising in Beghazi was more than welcome to take care of the problem "Gaddhafi" under pretext of supporting the "Arab Spring". In the first - and last - attempt to incorporate the "responsibility to protect" doctrine into UN policy, the US and several NATO countries got two sloppily written UNSC resolutions calling for a no-fly-zone and an arms embargo. UN SecGen Ban Ki-Moon went into hiding when the "coalition" expanded these resolutions into a large scale weapons delivery operation and an unrestricted bombing campaign against the Libyan Army. After Gaddhafi was injured in an airstrike, then captured and brutally massacred by the "rebels" an elated Hillary Clinton commented: "we came, we saw, he died, hehehehe...".

Today the "democratically elected" Libyan government is sitting in Tobruk, trying not to attract the attention of the powerful militias in Tripolis and Benghazi which de facto rule the country. The international airports are closed and IS has claimed the first "liberated" town in Libya.

In the Ukraine the USA and NATO/EU had no moral inhibitions to condone the violent coup against an elected government, instead they saw it as another opportunity to corner Russia with the possibility of expanding NATO territory right onto Putin´s doorstep. Their wet dream of thus making the position of the Russian Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol untenable was sadly foiled by a referendum returning the Crimea back to Russia.

Russel´s statement is not only stupid, it is highly inappropriate. It would be bad enough if it was just the solo flight of some diplomatically challenged dummy, as an official opinion of the US State Department presented in such a form it is a disaster and only serves to promote Thai-Chinese cooperation.

With a long track record of supporting dictators from Pinochet to Pol Pot and being either instrumental in or supportive of overthrowing democratically elected governments from Allende to Yanukovich, the USA is in no position to lecture anybody on democracy.

[EyesWideOpen]

To be able to properly assess Russel´s remarks one has to scrutinize the USA´s ability to teach other countries about democracy. And what we can see here it looks rather bleak.

Even after WW2 and establishment of the UN the USA rigorously enforced the Monroe doctrine and meddled in the internal affairs of souvereign countries in Central and South America.

Here are just two examples:

When the US United Fruit Company felt inconvenienced by an impending land reform in Guatemala, President Harry Truman in 1951 authorized covert CIA action against the elected government. This culminated in 1954 in a rather pathetic coup d´etat establishing a buffoon named Castillo Armas as new President. He reversed all social decrees of the previous government including the land reform triggering a 36 year long civil war from 1960 to 1986 with 200.000 citizens killed on both sides, the majority by US trained counter insurgency military units.

Long before the USA´s 9/11, Chile had their own 9/11. In 1973, after 3 years of covert destabilizing CIA operations, the democratically elected government of President Salvador Allende was overthrown in a bloody CIA supported military coup turning the country into a military dictatorship for the next 15 years under General Augusto Pinochet. 3000 citizens lost their lives during that period and thousands more suffered imprisonment and torture.

But what about recent attempts of the USA to export its idea of democracy to other countries?

Let´s have a look at Afghanistan, the "young democracy". All that changed was that the local "chieftains", drug barons and warlords now call themselves Members of Parliament or Ministers not at least thanks to massive and widespread electoral fraud. Rule of Law is virtually nonexistent and anyone trying to speak out against the blunt and open abuse of power is quickly shown his rank in the food chain. Corruption is over the top and government officials use diplomatic luggage to routinely take large amounts of cash siphoned off aid money to the Gulf emirates and transfer them to offshore accounts. Once the foreign troops will have left, the Taliban will come back in force and most likely again establish their "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" thanks to generous support by the Pakistani armed forces, a US "ally in the war on terror".

Maybe the second attempt of the US to export democracy was more promising? Sadly no, Iraq never recovered from the US led invasion, and the "democratically elected" government understood its mandate foremost as a letter of marque to enrich themselves and harass the Sunni minority, alleged followers of the former President Saddam Hussein. And what began as insurgency against the occupying forces, thanks to Paul Bremer, turned into a vicious ethnic conflict, killing more than 150.000 civilians. The country was ripe for plucking by IS which rose to power in the wake of US attempts to fuel a minor uprising against the Syrian Government by training "moderate islamists" in dirty warfare. The country is now almost as far away from democracy as it was under Saddam Hussein, but a lot unsafer, the number of civilians killed per annum have doubled every year since 2012: 4622 - 9742 - 17049 (2014).

That leaves Libya. Another minor islamist uprising in Beghazi was more than welcome to take care of the problem "Gaddhafi" under pretext of supporting the "Arab Spring". In the first - and last - attempt to incorporate the "responsibility to protect" doctrine into UN policy, the US and several NATO countries got two sloppily written UNSC resolutions calling for a no-fly-zone and an arms embargo. UN SecGen Ban Ki-Moon went into hiding when the "coalition" expanded these resolutions into a large scale weapons delivery operation and an unrestricted bombing campaign against the Libyan Army. After Gaddhafi was injured in an airstrike, then captured and brutally massacred by the "rebels" an elated Hillary Clinton commented: "we came, we saw, he died, hehehehe...".

Today the "democratically elected" Libyan government is sitting in Tobruk, trying not to attract the attention of the powerful militias in Tripolis and Benghazi which de facto rule the country. The international airports are closed and IS has claimed the first "liberated" town in Libya.

In the Ukraine the USA and NATO/EU had no moral inhibitions to condone the violent coup against an elected government, instead they saw it as another opportunity to corner Russia with the possibility of expanding NATO territory right onto Putin´s doorstep. Their wet dream of thus making the position of the Russian Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol untenable was sadly foiled by a referendum returning the Crimea back to Russia.

Russel´s statement is not only stupid, it is highly inappropriate. It would be bad enough if it was just the solo flight of some diplomatically challenged dummy, as an official opinion of the US State Department presented in such a form it is a disaster and only serves to promote Thai-Chinese cooperation.

With a long track record of supporting dictators from Pinochet to Pol Pot and being either instrumental in or supportive of overthrowing democratically elected governments from Allende to Yanukovich, the USA is in no position to lecture anybody on democracy.

"... the USA is in no position to lecture anybody on democracy."

Nor is China, Thailand's new best friend....

In essence Thailand has become redundant in the context of whatever America's

strategy is in this area. Russel's statement was just putting it out in the open .

Edited January 28, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[halloween]

1. The arms caches were found after the coup, so you cannot state they triggered the coup.

2. the general tried numerous times to get all sides to talk, that is true, as long as "numerous times" means a couple of days. Did he really think the political problems of this country could be solved in days, after months and months of protests and both sides digging in? He also promised to stop the violence in the south within a year, why did he not promise to stop that in a day or 2, or a week if it is so easy?

3. hope the general has more patience with anything else in life before determining if discussions would work. Some agreements are made after years of negotiations, he gives up after a couple of days.

4. "innocent protesters being killed" and "timing", interesting 2 words in one sentence. How many people were killed the hours before the coup took place? And how many had already been killed? I can understand that when 20 people die in a shootout the army steps in to take control, but in fact there was not more violence right before the coup than weeks before the coup.

So one incident is more reason for a coup than weeks on near continuous violence? interesting logic.

Do you have any reason to believe the violence would stop, or even decrease, during the years of negotiation you advocate? Who is running the country in the interim?

Edited January 28, 2015 by halloween

[bobmac10]

Now we have the Generalissimo saying he needs to tap our phones, intercept our emails and conduct covert surveillance without recourse to the courts.

This place will be like Burma in 2 years.