Ukraine troops fight to avoid being surrounded by rebels

[mopar71]

The Russian ..... and the best disinformation/propaganda unit the world has ever seen.

It calls the truth. The US and other Western control almost 99% of world mass-media. We can win if we will show only THE TRUTH

You must be kidding... The sheer volume of pure lies and fabricated stories shown in Russian television about Ukraine is just amazing. There are countless examples where it has been proven that the Russian television has been supplementing some stories with war videos from different parts of the world attributing these to happenings in Ukraine, or the people that are being interviewed with the same actors playing the part of Ukrainian soldiers, then rebels and then again some innocent civilians in different stories etc. etc.

I don't suppose you could post a link to these claims of Russian TV using actors that strangely swap sides?... That would be interesting to see.

I can show you that the US have instigated the Ukraine crisis from the start, and intend to have a war with Russia.

Here you go...come back next month after you have finished reading and watching all the reports detailing Russian lies about Ukraine...

http://www.stopfake.org/en/news/

Edited February 4, 2015 by mopar71

[mopar71]

Sorry NS, but Ukraine lost it's sovereignty when the US paid for and sponsored the coup last year, installing neo-nazis in Kiev to create war with Russia...

One of the most frustrating things for me on this issue are the people who find it hard to believe that Ukrainians want better lives for themselves and their families. These ignorant people seem to think that Ukrainians were happy with the corrupt president and corrupt gov't bureaucracy that had been stifling the economy. Ukraine is a nation who was on par with neighbor Poland 20-25 years ago. Now they can see that Poland has pulled far ahead of them and they want the same for themselves. Of course, Putin never wanted "Little Russia" to progress because that would make Russians think the same about Ukraine as Ukrainians think about Poland then they too would want changes. "No, people don't want better lives unless the USA pushes them into it." Get over it all ready.

Second, these lies about neo-Nazis in Kiev need to stop. There are no Nazis or even right-wingers in power in Kiev, never were. You want to see Nazis, look toward Russia. The Kremlin will arrest one pensioner with a sign protesting war in Ukraine, but it will allow thousands of right wing fascists to march through Moscow. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/russian-march-draws-thousands-haters-2014114161437560714.html

1. After Yanukovich fled Ukraine last February and a provisional gov't took over (the Rada, or Parliament, remained the same) one of the first things they did was call for elections in 3 months time (May 25th). They had three months of campaigning, with many different parties, and the major candidates all Russian-speaking Ukrainians coming from the East and Southeast of Ukraine. Some had to learn Ukrainian as adults.

When Russia took over Crimea did they call for elections? No, they installed their own puppet leaders. Did anyone watch Putin's speech prior to officially annexing Crimea? Once of his appointed leaders didn't have a suit and tie, only a black shirt. He is the leader of the motorcycle gang Night Wolves and a big supporter of Putin. Nope, Nazis don't need elections or qualified candidates.

Then there was the joke of a referendum but that's an entirely different topic all together.

2) Shortly after the Presidential elections in May, Ukraine announced Parliamentary elections for Oct 2014. Again, many parties ran campaigns. The far right parties won abut 3% of the seats. Much less than what far right parties won across Europe that year. Russia doesn't really have elections so we can't compare.

The DPR also announced elections to be held shortly after the Ukrainian parliamentary elections. No one knows who the candidates were or what their platforms were. No one knows who even won. It was all a show. Nazis love putting on shows.

[Publicus]

Blah Blah Blah, Putin knows nothing this is why US is tipping toeing so is the rest of the EU.

Really your patriotism is beyond irrational, just boring each and every time.

Do some light reading outside of US patriotic pages, China is in dispute with a number of neighboring states and US bombs countries not even on the same continent

In case you missed few headlines, US invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria by proxy, EU being held hostage through financial channels, Vietnam, not to mention countries where US dictates terms of its existence.

But do not let facts get in the way of patriotic waffle, carry on.

The czars were a disaster.

The USSR was a disaster.

Putin is a disaster.

All of Russian history is an unmitigated disaster.

Putin is going to have his way until he can't have his way any longer. Putin's problem is that he never played chess against anyone he couldn't put in jail. That is because Putin cannot lose.

Russians themselves need to say exactly and precisely what that means in this.

Putin absolutely needs the land corridor on which Mariupol is situated to connect Russia and Crimea overland. Without Russia taking control of that land corridor, everything Putin has done would fall short of completion.

Nato has made it clear to Putin he can't have it.

Usa usa usa

I am posting about Russia.

You know, the czars and their 1000 years of totalitarian rule, Lenin and Stalin and their totalitarian tyranny, Gorbachev the bumbling Russian Marxist, Putin who is the heir of all of the Russian totalitarianism, imperialism and failures that preceded him.

Show me the posts where I thump my chest while wrapped in the flag singing patriotic songs. They do not exist, not here, not elsewhere. The Patriots won the Super Bowl and I'm from New England in the US so I'll drink to that . I in fact did.

I am posting about Russia and its 1000 year culture of dictatorship and the fact that in the post-Soviet era Ukraine and Ukrainians want to align with Europe and North America, the EU and Nato, meaning the West, not Russia, not the Brics, not the East, not the global South.

I am posting about Russia, the loser state.

And its present loser egomaniac and overly proud tyrant, Vladimir Putin and his gang of corrupt and under achieving Russians.

The people I am posting to at these threads are posting against the United States at their own initiative, exclusively, in volume and with malice.

[zig]

When Russia took over Crimea did they call for elections? No, they installed their own puppet leaders. Did anyone watch Putin's speech prior to officially annexing Crimea? Once of his appointed leaders didn't have a suit and tie, only a black shirt. He is the leader of the motorcycle gang Night Wolves and a big supporter of Putin. Nope, Nazis don't need elections or qualified candidates.

Then there was the joke of a referendum but that's an entirely different topic all together.

There was also an interview with Girkin/Strelkov recently where he admitted that his troops had to force the government officials into town hall under gunpoint to vote in favor of referendum and other initiatives. According to him, they had no support from Crimean people, Ukrainian army nor police.

I just wonder how long they will let him talk. He has managed to refute Russian news stories already a number of times.

Edited February 4, 2015 by zig

[PepperMe]

It calls the truth. The US and other Western control almost 99% of world mass-media. We can win if we will show only THE TRUTH

You must be kidding... The sheer volume of pure lies and fabricated stories shown in Russian television about Ukraine is just amazing. There are countless examples where it has been proven that the Russian television has been supplementing some stories with war videos from different parts of the world attributing these to happenings in Ukraine, or the people that are being interviewed with the same actors playing the part of Ukrainian soldiers, then rebels and then again some innocent civilians in different stories etc. etc.

I don't suppose you could post a link to these claims of Russian TV using actors that strangely swap sides?... That would be interesting to see.

I can show you that the US have instigated the Ukraine crisis from the start, and intend to have a war with Russia.

Here you go...come back next month after you have finished reading and watching all the reports detailing Russian lies about Ukraine...

http://www.stopfake.org/en/news/

Lies eh?

When the reports are backed up with actual US State Dept recordings of them deciding who makes up the Ukrainian cabinet?..... You do not class that as the US in total control of the Ukraine coup and neo nazi government THEY INSTALLED.

You are living in denial..... The USA is responsible for the Ukraine problem from start to finish, and that is so they can attack Russia with sanctions.... Well it is not going to work, and may end up with the US having to go to war, and they deserve it, because there will be a global coalition against them, and they will be defeated.

Then they will collapse..... Goodbye USA and good riddence.

[Publicus]

People like you are a danger to the American people.

I will enjoy watching you eat those words when the US can not raise a coalition and Russia will have China, India, Most of the Middle East, N Korea and South America.

Then the US will back away........ they would be annihilated.

US dominance is at an end mate.

<<snip>>

Man you are seriously deluded, and just about everything in this post is wrong and is testament to typical American arrogance.

Which just makes it sweeter when the rest of the world watches you fail.

The US is living on borrowed time and many have said 2015 will be the start of the fall of the country, both economically and militarily, but much more important...... socially. You will see for yourself exactly what those 300 million guns will be used for.

India is an American ally?..... hahaha, I have heard it all now... do you not even bother doing a google check before you commit yourself on here?.....lol

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=will+India+ally+with+US+or+Russia

The posts are about the United States directly and categorically.

Ukraine is but a distant thought to these posts and so is Russia.

The focus is on the United States and against the United States.

Yet another who is obsessive compulsive.

[PepperMe]

People like you are a danger to the American people.

I will enjoy watching you eat those words when the US can not raise a coalition and Russia will have China, India, Most of the Middle East, N Korea and South America.

Then the US will back away........ they would be annihilated.

US dominance is at an end mate.

<<snip>>

Man you are seriously deluded, and just about everything in this post is wrong and is testament to typical American arrogance.

Which just makes it sweeter when the rest of the world watches you fail.

The US is living on borrowed time and many have said 2015 will be the start of the fall of the country, both economically and militarily, but much more important...... socially. You will see for yourself exactly what those 300 million guns will be used for.

India is an American ally?..... hahaha, I have heard it all now... do you not even bother doing a google check before you commit yourself on here?.....lol

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=will+India+ally+with+US+or+Russia

The posts are about the United States directly and categorically.

Ukraine is but a distant thought to these posts and so is Russia.

The focus is on the United States and against the United States.

Yet another who is obsessive compulsive.

HISS

Head in sand syndrome.

[Publicus]

Ukraine exported major conventional arms worth $1.344 billion in 2012 becoming the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, according to the data published by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-worlds-4th-largest-arms-exporter-in-2012-according-to-sipri-321878.html?flavour=full

Surely 4th largest arms dealer in the world would be able to manage with its own arms without US help, unless there was an ulterior motive for the largest arms dealer, the US

The Russian poster ignores a great deal of how Russia controls arms sales via Ukraine using ports in Ukraine controlled by the Kremlin and the many corrupt Russian oligarchs. The Ukraine has ports constructed by the former Soviet Union when the Ukraine was a republic of the Russian Soviet Union and which Putin had continue to use until pro-Western governments were elected in Ukraine.

The Russian Soviet Union had made Ukraine its major manufacturer of arms for sale and shipment abroad to Russian Soviet allies, to include the missiles that were shipped to Russian Soviet ally Cuba and which resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962.

Until last year, Putin had been using Russian controlled ports in Ukraine to ship arms to Syria, Libya, Venezuela and other pro-Moscow regimes or rebels. It is famously called the Odessa Network and it is being busted up by the pro-Western governments recently elected in Ukraine.....

Odessa Network company leaders have personal and financial relationships with cabinet level officials in the Russian and Ukrainian governments, including a personal advisor to Putin and senior Russian military industrial figures. The Odessa Network centers on a group of Odessa-based private companies that regularly move large arms shipments.

The vast majority of weapons shipments leave from the Ukrainian port of Oktyabrsk, which was specially built by the USSR to move weapons (for example, this was the point of origin for Cuba-bound missiles in 1962). Despite being located in Ukraine, Oktyabrsk is functionally controlled by Russia—the port manager is a former Russian navy captain, and the port owner is a Kremlin-linked oligarch. Russian state weapons export agencies and Odessa Network firms maintain offices and personnel in Oktyabrsk.

Putin, his military industrial complex, Russian spy and subterfuge agencies and the like do not like that their foreign policy and lucrative income have been disturbed and disrupted by the new pro-West leaders who have emerged in Ukraine. Here are the further findings of the Global Initiative organization in their September 2013 analysis The Odessa Network.....

We believe the weapons sales documented in this paper serve three non-mutually exclusive purposes. First, arms exports have significant commercial value to the [Russian] state, and the weapons industry keeps entire regions employed. Russia alone exported $17.6 billion USD of weapons in 2012; the Black Sea Shipyard in Nikolaev supports an estimated 95,000 pensioners.

Second, the proceeds of these sales are used to buy loyalty and stability within the Russian and Ukrainian political patronage systems, which hinge on delivering rewards to a small coalition of regime stakeholders. In particular, allowing Russian military and intelligence sectors to take a cut of profits keeps them loyal and funded.

Third, arms transfers are an important foreign policy tool. Russia, consistent with its opposition to perceived American hegemony and interventionism, appears to be arming strategic antagonists of the United States, including Libya, Venezuela, and Syria. Ukraine is more commercially oriented, but still uses arms transfers as a policy tool; for example, the anti-Russian Yushchenko government selling heavily discounted anti-aircraft systems to Georgia under the similarly anti-Russian Saakashvili government.

In sum, these factors mean arms transfers are deeply important to the Russian and Ukrainian governments.

http://www.globalinitiative.net/download/arms-trafficking/arms%282%29/C4ads%20-%20The%20Odessa%20Network%20Mapping%20facilitators%20of%20Russian%20and%20Ukranian%20Arms%20Transfers%20-%20Sept%202013.pdf

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/business/russia-arms-trade-explained/?iid=EL

[konying]

Blah Blah Blah, Putin knows nothing this is why US is tipping toeing so is the rest of the EU.

Really your patriotism is beyond irrational, just boring each and every time.

Do some light reading outside of US patriotic pages, China is in dispute with a number of neighboring states and US bombs countries not even on the same continent

In case you missed few headlines, US invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria by proxy, EU being held hostage through financial channels, Vietnam, not to mention countries where US dictates terms of its existence.

But do not let facts get in the way of patriotic waffle, carry on.

The czars were a disaster.

The USSR was a disaster.

Putin is a disaster.

All of Russian history is an unmitigated disaster.

Putin is going to have his way until he can't have his way any longer. Putin's problem is that he never played chess against anyone he couldn't put in jail. That is because Putin cannot lose.

Russians themselves need to say exactly and precisely what that means in this.

Putin absolutely needs the land corridor on which Mariupol is situated to connect Russia and Crimea overland. Without Russia taking control of that land corridor, everything Putin has done would fall short of completion.

Nato has made it clear to Putin he can't have it.

Usa usa usa

I am posting about Russia.

You know, the czars and their 1000 years of totalitarian rule, Lenin and Stalin and their totalitarian tyranny, Gorbachev the bumbling Russian Marxist, Putin who is the heir of all of the Russian totalitarianism, imperialism and failures that preceded him.

Show me the posts where I thump my chest while wrapped in the flag singing patriotic songs. They do not exist, not here, not elsewhere. The Patriots won the Super Bowl and I'm from New England in the US so I'll drink to that . I in fact did.

I am posting about Russia and its 1000 year culture of dictatorship and the fact that in the post-Soviet era Ukraine and Ukrainians want to align with Europe and North America, the EU and Nato, meaning the West, not Russia, not the Brics, not the East, not the global South.

I am posting about Russia, the loser state.

And its present loser egomaniac and overly proud tyrant, Vladimir Putin and his gang of corrupt and under achieving Russians.

The people I am posting to at these threads are posting against the United States at their own initiative, exclusively, in volume and with malice.

Indeed, while praising the great US of A

Not that its surprising

[Loptr]

Sorry NS, but Ukraine lost it's sovereignty when the US paid for and sponsored the coup last year, installing neo-nazis in Kiev to create war with Russia...

One of the most frustrating things for me on this issue are the people who find it hard to believe that Ukrainians want better lives for themselves and their families. These ignorant people seem to think that Ukrainians were happy with the corrupt president and corrupt gov't bureaucracy that had been stifling the economy. Ukraine is a nation who was on par with neighbor Poland 20-25 years ago. Now they can see that Poland has pulled far ahead of them and they want the same for themselves. Of course, Putin never wanted "Little Russia" to progress because that would make Russians think the same about Ukraine as Ukrainians think about Poland then they too would want changes. "No, people don't want better lives unless the USA pushes them into it." Get over it all ready.

Second, these lies about neo-Nazis in Kiev need to stop. There are no Nazis or even right-wingers in power in Kiev, never were. You want to see Nazis, look toward Russia. The Kremlin will arrest one pensioner with a sign protesting war in Ukraine, but it will allow thousands of right wing fascists to march through Moscow. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/russian-march-draws-thousands-haters-2014114161437560714.html

1. After Yanukovich fled Ukraine last February and a provisional gov't took over (the Rada, or Parliament, remained the same) one of the first things they did was call for elections in 3 months time (May 25th). They had three months of campaigning, with many different parties, and the major candidates all Russian-speaking Ukrainians coming from the East and Southeast of Ukraine. Some had to learn Ukrainian as adults.

When Russia took over Crimea did they call for elections? No, they installed their own puppet leaders. Did anyone watch Putin's speech prior to officially annexing Crimea? Once of his appointed leaders didn't have a suit and tie, only a black shirt. He is the leader of the motorcycle gang Night Wolves and a big supporter of Putin. Nope, Nazis don't need elections or qualified candidates.

Then there was the joke of a referendum but that's an entirely different topic all together.

2) Shortly after the Presidential elections in May, Ukraine announced Parliamentary elections for Oct 2014. Again, many parties ran campaigns. The far right parties won abut 3% of the seats. Much less than what far right parties won across Europe that year. Russia doesn't really have elections so we can't compare.

The DPR also announced elections to be held shortly after the Ukrainian parliamentary elections. No one knows who the candidates were or what their platforms were. No one knows who even won. It was all a show. Nazis love putting on shows.

So you are denying that Ukraine is nothing more that a vassal state of the US, doing their bidding to ferment war with Russia? If you believe that then you have drunk the koolaid and need to some more research... Did you even bother to follow the links that I provided?

As far as the US sponsored coup, perhaps you missed the fact that Victoria Nuland of the US State Department was recorded having a conversation with the US Ambassador to Ukraine planning the coup and deciding who they would install in power afterwards... You know, the famous "F##k The EU" tape? If so, here's a refresher for you....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video

[konying]

Ukraine exported major conventional arms worth $1.344 billion in 2012 becoming the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, according to the data published by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-worlds-4th-largest-arms-exporter-in-2012-according-to-sipri-321878.html?flavour=full

Surely 4th largest arms dealer in the world would be able to manage with its own arms without US help, unless there was an ulterior motive for the largest arms dealer, the US

The Russian poster ignores a great deal of how Russia controls arms sales via Ukraine using ports in Ukraine controlled by the Kremlin and the many corrupt Russian oligarchs. The Ukraine has ports constructed by the former Soviet Union when the Ukraine was a republic of the Russian Soviet Union and which Putin had continue to use until pro-Western governments were elected in Ukraine.

The Russian Soviet Union had made Ukraine its major manufacturer of arms for sale and shipment abroad to Russian Soviet allies, to include the missiles that were shipped to Russian Soviet ally Cuba and which resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962.

Until last year, Putin had been using Russian controlled ports in Ukraine to ship arms to Syria, Libya, Venezuela and other pro-Moscow regimes or rebels. It is famously called the Odessa Network and it is being busted up by the pro-Western governments recently elected in Ukraine.....

Odessa Network company leaders have personal and financial relationships with cabinet level officials in the Russian and Ukrainian governments, including a personal advisor to Putin and senior Russian military industrial figures. The Odessa Network centers on a group of Odessa-based private companies that regularly move large arms shipments.

The vast majority of weapons shipments leave from the Ukrainian port of Oktyabrsk, which was specially built by the USSR to move weapons (for example, this was the point of origin for Cuba-bound missiles in 1962). Despite being located in Ukraine, Oktyabrsk is functionally controlled by Russia—the port manager is a former Russian navy captain, and the port owner is a Kremlin-linked oligarch. Russian state weapons export agencies and Odessa Network firms maintain offices and personnel in Oktyabrsk.

Putin, his military industrial complex, Russian spy and subterfuge agencies and the like do not like that their foreign policy and lucrative income have been disturbed and disrupted by the new pro-West leaders who have emerged in Ukraine. Here are the further findings of the Global Initiative organization in their September 2013 analysis The Odessa Network.....

We believe the weapons sales documented in this paper serve three non-mutually exclusive purposes. First, arms exports have significant commercial value to the [Russian] state, and the weapons industry keeps entire regions employed. Russia alone exported $17.6 billion USD of weapons in 2012; the Black Sea Shipyard in Nikolaev supports an estimated 95,000 pensioners.

Second, the proceeds of these sales are used to buy loyalty and stability within the Russian and Ukrainian political patronage systems, which hinge on delivering rewards to a small coalition of regime stakeholders. In particular, allowing Russian military and intelligence sectors to take a cut of profits keeps them loyal and funded.

Third, arms transfers are an important foreign policy tool. Russia, consistent with its opposition to perceived American hegemony and interventionism, appears to be arming strategic antagonists of the United States, including Libya, Venezuela, and Syria. Ukraine is more commercially oriented, but still uses arms transfers as a policy tool; for example, the anti-Russian Yushchenko government selling heavily discounted anti-aircraft systems to Georgia under the similarly anti-Russian Saakashvili government.

In sum, these factors mean arms transfers are deeply important to the Russian and Ukrainian governments.

http://www.globalinitiative.net/download/arms-trafficking/arms%282%29/C4ads%20-%20The%20Odessa%20Network%20Mapping%20facilitators%20of%20Russian%20and%20Ukranian%20Arms%20Transfers%20-%20Sept%202013.pdf

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/business/russia-arms-trade-explained/?iid=EL

Russian poster? and again in with the drivel and made up facts

Contact Sweden and express your "facts" to them, instead of making up "facts", i did not create it nor did i do the research.

[Publicus]

Putin absolutely needs the land corridor on which Mariupol is situated to connect Russia and Crimea overland. Without Russia taking control of that land corridor, everything Putin has done would fall short of completion.

Nato has made it clear to Putin he can't have it.

Having control over the land bridge to Crimea would come in handy but this can be achieved without the separatists annexing further territory. It will be part of the deal when the parties come to the table again. If not Ukraine will not get any oil and gas -simple as that. In the meantime work has already started on a bridge from the Russian side at Kerch.

A Russian contract for building a bridge to Crimea has gone to a company majority-owned by a friend of Vladimir Putin who is under Western sanctions.

The $3bn (£2bn) contract was awarded to the SGM Group, owned by Arkady Rotenberg, a childhood friend and judo partner of the Russian president.

The bridge will join Russia directly to the peninsula it annexed from Ukraine in March after a disputed referendum.

Putin and his military-industrial complex oligarchs know an overwater bridge can easily be blown.

They know using boats is also unreliable.

Putin needs the land corridor on which the city of Mariupol is situated and which is a part of Ukraine in order to have reliable access to Crimea.

He's not going to get it by negotiating unless he negotiates to get his regular armed forces out of the Donbas, to stop arming the rebels, and to return the Crimea to its Ukraine sovereignty, which, as you well know, means never.

Putin knows if he moves militarily against Mariupol and seizes the land corridor, Nato will shut Russia out of the SWIFT electronic banking system, which is based in Belgium and does $6 billion of global transactions daily. The shutout of Russia from SWIFT will set back Russian international financial transactions 30 years. It won't break Russia, but it will tangle its central bank and entire system of international of payments into constipated knots.

Iran finally crawled to the negotiating table over its nuclear program after the EU and US shut it out of the SWIFT systems, to include the Iranian central bank.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

People like you are a danger to the American people.

I will enjoy watching you eat those words when the US can not raise a coalition and Russia will have China, India, Most of the Middle East, N Korea and South America.

Then the US will back away........ they would be annihilated.

US dominance is at an end mate.

<<snip>>

Man you are seriously deluded, and just about everything in this post is wrong and is testament to typical American arrogance.

Which just makes it sweeter when the rest of the world watches you fail.

The US is living on borrowed time and many have said 2015 will be the start of the fall of the country, both economically and militarily, but much more important...... socially. You will see for yourself exactly what those 300 million guns will be used for.

India is an American ally?..... hahaha, I have heard it all now... do you not even bother doing a google check before you commit yourself on here?.....lol

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=will+India+ally+with+US+or+Russia

The posts are about the United States directly and categorically.

Ukraine is but a distant thought to these posts and so is Russia.

The focus is on the United States and against the United States.

Yet another who is obsessive compulsive.

HISS

Head in sand syndrome.

The Russia posters here can't show any usa chest thumping posts to this thread or to any thread because there are not any....none whatsoever.

I am posting about Russia, Ukraine, EU, Nato, US, China et al.

You clowns are posting against the United States.

I say almost nothing about the United States, specifically, categorically, per se.

You can't show chest thumping posts because they do not exist, not here, not anywhere.

[Loptr]

For those bleating that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Russian troops are aiding East Ukraine rebels, perhaps you would like to read what a Ukraine General has to say about the matter...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-government-no-russian-troops-are-fighting-against-us-sanctions-against-russia-based-on-falshoods/5428523

Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EU’s sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.’s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against “the regular units of the Russian army” — i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The same cannot be said about US troops on the ground in Ukraine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoMM-ncaomA

Edited February 4, 2015 by Loptr

[rijit]

Seems the latest piece of fed info is that the russian propaganda machine wants to promote is an american involvement, wouldnt that just suit putin or according to the latest from the litveneko murder enq' where they have said he prefered young boys so perhaps calling him peodofile putin would more appropriate

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited February 4, 2015 by rijit

[F430murci]

Russians and their heavy artilliaey are e ER present in the Ukraine.

----------

The general said the pro-Russia separatists were heavily armed and supported by Russian T-72 and T-80 tanks, along with sophisticated Russian artillery systems. He also said that hundreds of Russian soldiers were fighting alongside the separatists.

We fully understand that today we are mostly fighting against Russian regular troops and their quite professional artillery and tank crews, Rozmaznin said. We know that they are maneuvering to entrap our forces, but we are prepared for it and they are already feeling our powerful response and retreating, sustaining heavy casualties.

A T-72 tank crew was captured Saturday and was being interrogated, Poltorak said.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82688679/

Some pictures would be nice as well. Please send us a link to the interrogation report when it becomes available....

Oh and about the tanks: do your homework first.

The factories that made the powerful diesel engines for the T-80UD is also Ukrainian so they can upgrade their T-80Us and other vehicles with gas turbine engines with a more fuel efficient and only slightly less powerful diesel engine.

Most of the upgrades the Ukrainians have applied to their T-72s was to make them more compatible with T-80 parts while the Russians have naturally done the opposite with their T-80s (they have integrated T-72 parts to improve standardisation with their existing fleet).

Pictures.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-351-us-plays-down-talk-of-supplying-arms-to-ukraine/

[Scott]

A few off-topic posts and replies have been removed. The topic is about Ukraine's troops. Continued off-topic posts will result in a warning and possible suspension.

[F430murci]

Said artilliaey, not tanks . . . Sure, Ukraine has 80 and 84s, but where did the rebels get theirs. Local street markets? Mercedes dealership? Grocery store?

Clearly you missed it, 2012 Ukraine was 4 th largest arm dealer in the world , no shortage of weapons and dealers

So these Ukrainian arms dealers had and sold to the rebels T72s, T72B3s, BTR82s, GRADs, 2A65s with radar guidance, MRO-As, 9K135s and etc. Inky Russia had some of this stuff showing up now. Ukraine was just selling a bunch of low sophistication, easy to produce and repair stuff.

Whatever made you think rebels were not the dealers to start with?

To be 4th largest would require to sell little more than low sophistication

PS. You have no idea what rebels have or use other than what US propaganda tells you, who make " facts" up as we go

You did not address the weapons I discussed which are new and were only in Russian's possession prior to this conflict.

Most of Ukraine's weapon sales were through Ukrspecexport. Which is a government owned exporter.

Below is from an article addressing Ukraine's arms sales.

--------

After gaining independence, Ukraine discovered that its military production capability exceeded its own needs, and decided to sell the surplus. One of the largest contracts Ukraine secured was in the 1990s - the sale of 320 tanks to Pakistan, in which the country gained 650 million USD (US dollars). By offering inexpensive and reliable hardware, instead of state-of-the-art technology, Ukraine has become a key arms exporter to many countries in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anna-babinets/ukraines-mysterious-exit-from-arms-trade

[F430murci]

For those bleating that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Russian troops are aiding East Ukraine rebels, perhaps you would like to read what a Ukraine General has to say about the matter...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-government-no-russian-troops-are-fighting-against-us-sanctions-against-russia-based-on-falshoods/5428523

Ukrainian Government: No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

The Chief of Staff of Ukraines Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Governments side), who are members of illegal armed groups, meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just individual citizens (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EUs sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against the regular units of the Russian army i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The same cannot be said about US troops on the ground in Ukraine...

Behind with time on your Zeroehedge, who ran this video first on the day of Marupiol shelling, considering US and NATO announced 1,300 joint coalition forces sent in September 2014 for training exercises.

US does not have a huge troup presence there yet, but announced troops will be sent in spring. It is Russian denials that are being discussed, but I know you enjoy focusing on US and have a difficult time seeing past your contempt for all things US making it difficult to see the big picture.

--------

About 1,300 troops from 15 countries - including the US and other Nato members - have begun a military exercise near Lviv in western Ukraine.

The US says the drill had been planned before the current crisis in eastern Ukraine, where government forces have been battling pro-Russian rebels.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29204505

[asiamaster]

July 8th 2014 Pro-Russian separatists in Lugansk have in their possession a 9K35 Strela-10 launch vehicle, likely captured from Ukrainian stores. In the below videos we can see the vehicle moving through Lugansk along with several BMP infantry fighting vehicles (IFV).

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[konying]

You did not address the weapons I discussed which are new and were only in Russian's possession prior to this conflict.

Most of Ukraine's weapon sales were through Ukrspecexport. Which is a government owned exporter.

Below is from an article addressing Ukraine's arms sales.

--------

After gaining independence, Ukraine discovered that its military production capability exceeded its own needs, and decided to sell the surplus. One of the largest contracts Ukraine secured was in the 1990s - the sale of 320 tanks to Pakistan, in which the country gained 650 million USD (US dollars). By offering inexpensive and reliable hardware, instead of state-of-the-art technology, Ukraine has become a key arms exporter to many countries in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anna-babinets/ukraines-mysterious-exit-from-arms-trade

Once again you do not know what weapons rebels posses, you ONLY know what US propaganda machine tells you they posses.

There are no US reporters on the ground, because if there were, they would be reporting shelling of schools and hospitals by Ukrainian military and use of banned shells.

Just like the claims by US propaganda machine that the plane was shot down by Russians, only no evidence and reports show otherwise.

Just like US propaganda machine keeps claiming Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, only no evidence ever produced and now Ukrainian general confirmed that there is no Russian Army.

The other day, Kiev disband Aidan armed militia responsible for burning people alive in Odessa and atrocities all around the country. Kiev did that because UN reports started to question lack of action bringing those to justice, so instead of arresting and charging the militia, they simply disband as if they never existed.

Even IF Russia is supplying or selling weapons to the rebels, it is no different to US supporting and supplying weapons to Ukraine or rebels in Syria or any other place

However if US intentions are as genuine as US is trying to make it out to be, perhaps stopping meddling in Ukrainian affairs and supplying whatever US does would deescalate the situation.

But its pretty clear even to a blind man what the real intentions are.

By he way, Ukraine owes Russia over 5 billion dollars, not to mention all the stolen gas, may be US would like to pick up the tab?

Edited February 4, 2015 by konying

[F430murci]

July 8th 2014 Pro-Russian separatists in Lugansk have in their possession a 9K35 Strela-10 launch vehicle, likely captured from Ukrainian stores. In the below videos we can see the vehicle moving through Lugansk along with several BMP infantry fighting vehicles (IFV).

Very old article with a passing speculative statement regarding from where the Strela-10s in rebel posession originated.

The Strela-10s seen and pictured rolling through the streets of Donetsk on Feb 3 had Russian military markings.

Don't suppose you can run down to the local Ukraine Strela-10 store and purchase Strela-10s with Russian markings or I suppose Ukraine military put Russian markings on the Strela-10s that the rebels were going to steal and let them steal those Strela-10s just to set Russia up.

[F430murci]

You did not address the weapons I discussed which are new and were only in Russian's possession prior to this conflict.

Most of Ukraine's weapon sales were through Ukrspecexport. Which is a government owned exporter.

Below is from an article addressing Ukraine's arms sales.

--------

After gaining independence, Ukraine discovered that its military production capability exceeded its own needs, and decided to sell the surplus. One of the largest contracts Ukraine secured was in the 1990s - the sale of 320 tanks to Pakistan, in which the country gained 650 million USD (US dollars). By offering inexpensive and reliable hardware, instead of state-of-the-art technology, Ukraine has become a key arms exporter to many countries in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anna-babinets/ukraines-mysterious-exit-from-arms-trade

Once again you do not know what weapons rebels posses, you ONLY know what US propaganda machine tells you they posses.

There are no US reporters on the ground, because if there were, they would be reporting shelling of schools and hospitals by Ukrainian military and use of banned shells.

Just like the claims by US propaganda machine that the plane was shot down by Russians, only no evidence and reports show otherwise.

Just like US propaganda machine keeps claiming Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, only no evidence ever produced and now Ukrainian general confirmed that there is no Russian Army.

The other day, Kiev disband Aidan armed militia responsible for burning people alive in Odessa and atrocities all around the country. Kiev did that because UN reports started to question lack of action bringing those to justice, so instead of arresting and charging the militia, they simply disband as if they never existed.

Even IF Russia is supplying or selling weapons to the rebels, it is no different to US supporting and supplying weapons to Ukraine or rebels in Syria or any other place

However if US intentions are as genuine as US is trying to make it out to be, perhaps stopping meddling in Ukrainian affairs and supplying whatever US does would deescalate the situation.

But its pretty clear even to a blind man what the real intentions are.

By he way, Ukraine owes Russia over 5 billion dollars, not to mention all the stolen gas, may be US would like to pick up the tab?

WTH are you talking about? Still don't address any points or questions.

The reports about weapons in possession of rebels are based on pictures and witness reports coming out of the Ukraine. I suppose the American propaganda machine is actually driving and using these weapons with Russian military markings and letting Ukrainians photograph them using these Russian weapons all to blame poor innocent Russia who is doing absolutely nothing except sitting on the sidelines trying to broker a peace deal.

The issue here is whether Russia is invading or at war with Ukraine. US giving weapons to Ukraine to defend itself is a bit different than if US was giving weapons and supplying to troops to the Ukraine to invade Russia.

[konying]

You did not address the weapons I discussed which are new and were only in Russian's possession prior to this conflict.

Most of Ukraine's weapon sales were through Ukrspecexport. Which is a government owned exporter.

Below is from an article addressing Ukraine's arms sales.

--------

After gaining independence, Ukraine discovered that its military production capability exceeded its own needs, and decided to sell the surplus. One of the largest contracts Ukraine secured was in the 1990s - the sale of 320 tanks to Pakistan, in which the country gained 650 million USD (US dollars). By offering inexpensive and reliable hardware, instead of state-of-the-art technology, Ukraine has become a key arms exporter to many countries in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anna-babinets/ukraines-mysterious-exit-from-arms-trade

Once again you do not know what weapons rebels posses, you ONLY know what US propaganda machine tells you they posses.

There are no US reporters on the ground, because if there were, they would be reporting shelling of schools and hospitals by Ukrainian military and use of banned shells.

Just like the claims by US propaganda machine that the plane was shot down by Russians, only no evidence and reports show otherwise.

Just like US propaganda machine keeps claiming Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, only no evidence ever produced and now Ukrainian general confirmed that there is no Russian Army.

The other day, Kiev disband Aidan armed militia responsible for burning people alive in Odessa and atrocities all around the country. Kiev did that because UN reports started to question lack of action bringing those to justice, so instead of arresting and charging the militia, they simply disband as if they never existed.

Even IF Russia is supplying or selling weapons to the rebels, it is no different to US supporting and supplying weapons to Ukraine or rebels in Syria or any other place

However if US intentions are as genuine as US is trying to make it out to be, perhaps stopping meddling in Ukrainian affairs and supplying whatever US does would deescalate the situation.

But its pretty clear even to a blind man what the real intentions are.

By he way, Ukraine owes Russia over 5 billion dollars, not to mention all the stolen gas, may be US would like to pick up the tab?

WTH are you talking about? Still don't address any points or questions.

The reports about weapons in possession of rebels are based on pictures and witness reports coming out of the Ukraine. I suppose the American propaganda machine is actually driving and using these weapons with Russian military markings and letting Ukrainians photograph them using these Russian weapons all to blame poor innocent Russia who is doing absolutely nothing except sitting on the sidelines trying to broker a peace deal.

The issue here is whether Russia is invading or at war with Ukraine. US giving weapons to Ukraine to defend itself is a bit different than if US was giving weapons and supplying to troops to the Ukraine to invade Russia.

So it was Russia who decided to stage a coup and supported unlawful take over?

It was Russia who decided to outlaw language spoken for decades?

And it was Russia who refused to pay itself?

Witnesses like whom? Ukrainian Army?

Pictures made by whom? Ukrainian Army?

The very same army responsible for over 5000 deaths, over 1 million refugees ?

Yes, indeed very credible sources

If Russia was invading or at war with Ukraine, Russian flag would have been waving on top of Kiev from April of last year

If Russia was invading, rebels would not be defending ONLY eastern part, but advancing all the way to Kiev, and finally if Russia was invading they would not be be accommodating over 1 million refuges and sending humanitarian aid on regular basis, but sending in troops instead.

Does not take a genius to figure this one out

Does Russia support anti Russian government in Ukraine? Of course not, just like West, mainly US meddles in other countries where government is anti American, again, not exactly rocket science there.

[Chicog]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

[konying]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

[Chicog]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

Yes, lets just gather together somewhere in Thailand where we outnumber the locals, have a vote and nick it off them.

No more 90 day reporting.

[asiamaster]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

Yes, lets just gather together somewhere in Thailand where we outnumber the locals, have a vote and nick it off them.

No more 90 day reporting.

I would suggest Koh Tao

[asiamaster]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

From a country that was having problems financially, socially and politically, it has basically transited to a failed state torn apart by a civil war, sectarian violence, oligarchs, private armies, Nazis, a coup government, complete lack of constitutional order, and on top economic problems that get much worse.