Standard-gauge railway proceeding faster than planned, Thai Minister says

[ExPratt]

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By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

Pretty much . yes, Unless they build on a new alignment form the old , but then you require new land acquisitions , costly and time consuming, The construction is straight forward however the problem is trying to keep a train service on 1000mm gauge while building a new 1435 gauge next to it or in some cases on top of it. When you are rebuilding like for like you can build the first track 1000mm more or less next to the old, then swap running traffic onto it , rip out the old 1000mm and then build the second new track where the old one is. Obviously you cannot do that with this unless SRT can provide 1435 gauge Rolling stock halfway through the project. There will also be huge civil works to do and that will involve placing temporary track to divert traffic. Believe me double tracking on and next to a running railway is not easy to get consistent production when you are installing a new track with the same gauge, Different gauge will bring its own problems

Due to the different gauge and design speed of the new Railway the curves will differ from the old therefore you will get occurrences of the old alignment crossing and coming back over the old alignment. You can only do these areas in train intervals or Blocks (Possessions)when the new gauge is the same as the old you can run the Trains on the new works , if its a different gauge it becomes far more problematic having to install Dual gauge sleepers

This will not be a simple project to complete and run a train service at the same time . It all depends on the new alignment until that is decided no one can estimate how long the project will be. Being as I just finished working on a 350 double tracking project that took 5 years and was installing the same 1000 gauge as the existing . This project , twice the size and different gauge will take a long time. If the Chinese steam roller it and cut every corner there is, which is what they do, you will still be looking at 7 or 8 years from breaking ground to when the get a full Track, overhead traction and signaled railway in service

[BSJ]

Dual gauge track brings with it many problems...but it is doable. In Australia there has been several dual gauge track sections over the last 100+ years.

Signaling has to be clearly defined. Australia rail of old used staff exchange sections or train orders as the signalling was primitive at that time. Electric signals would work today.

Crossing loops cost a lot more. Essentially a double set of points at each end and at spur tracks that are dual.

Extra maintenance is needed on the single rail and the points.

I am not sure how much dual gauge is left in Oz!

Different dual gauges in each pix.

[ExPratt]

Agreed mate is doable , Nice Turnout , when was the last time that was tamped ;0)

Obviously a big concern will be maintaining a SRT service during construction. A lot depends what access SRT give to the running line , In Malaysia they would only give 4 hours max(Freight not passenger traffic) so most of our work was done on the adjacent new track and crossing of the alignment was done in 4 hour blocks. Now if SRT give them nice big blocks they could install the dual gauge. Don' forget though this should include a totally new formation, Grade 1 , Tarram , Sand , so not easy to do that and replace the track in a line block. Lets see what happens , the new alignment will govern their method as well as Track access

[Langsuan Man]

Actually who would miss the service on SRT if they just stopped the trains and built the new tracks.

Seriously, the two people I see on the morning train from Pattaya (Bangkok) to Rayong could easily take the bus and the one person that takes the return from Rayong in the afternoon could do likewise

[ExPratt]

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Actually who would miss the service on SRT if they just stopped the trains and built the new tracks.

Seriously, the two people I see on the morning train from Pattaya (Bangkok) to Rayong could easily take the bus and the one person that takes the return from Rayong in the afternoon could do likewise

What about Freight , much ?

[Langsuan Man]

Sorry, but I can see the tracks from where I live and I can count on one hand the number of freight trains I have seen on this route in a typical month

Train service in this country is so unreliable, even bulk shippers won't use it

On the other hand go up to Highway 36 and there is an endless stream of trucks plying the Bangkok to Rayong to Bangkok route

[trainman34014]

Let the Japanese build it. They already build the bridge over the river Kwai.

You need a History lesson. The bridge was built by using Allied Prisoners of War as slave labour. I and many others who lost members of our family who are now buried in graves at Kanchanaburi do not appreciate your 'joke'.

[ExPratt]

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Sorry, but I can see the tracks from where I live and I can count on one hand the number of freight trains I have seen on this route in a typical month

Train service in this country is so unreliable, even bulk shippers won't use it

On the other hand go up to Highway 36 and there is an endless stream of trucks plying the Bangkok to Rayong to Bangkok route

Well then it will depend how much the Track/Train controllers are given for backhanders to let you on track to work. It should be in the Contract for a Minimum possession Time. As mentioned in Malaysia it was 4 hours and it was always 4 hours or under at their Whim, you could only get extra time if You (funded by the company) gave the controller a backhander. These guys working for KTMB and SRT get &lt;deleted&gt; money and work for 30 years for a meager pension,it does not matter to them if you get your work done or not

If they are sensible they will go for 8 hours clear time on track in the Contract probably wont get it though, 4 trains a day could be every 6 hours, so SRT may knock the hours on Track down, double tracking with an existing Railway is a difficult job that requires massive planning and schedule

[billd766]

By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

That would be the ideal situation but that can't really be done until the new one is built. They will also have to build new stations including raising the platfom level as the new tracks are that much wider plus replace or build new bridges for the trains to go over and under also for road traffic too. Not to mention replacing all the signalling and cabling along the tracks.

They are virtually building a new railway from scratch and if they do it would be the time to clear all the problems hanging over from the 100 odd years of the SRT.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

That would be the ideal situation but that can't really be done until the new one is built. They will also have to build new stations including raising the platfom level as the new tracks are that much wider plus replace or build new bridges for the trains to go over and under also for road traffic too. Not to mention replacing all the signalling and cabling along the tracks.

They are virtually building a new railway from scratch and if they do it would be the time to clear all the problems hanging over from the 100 odd years of the SRT.

They'll build it pretty much on the old track alignment in places , the more they use of the old alignment the cheaper it will be, Anyway I'd say we are still a way from them announcing the new railways alignment. Being in the Track game I'm quite interested as to how they are going to build a different Gauge to the existing and keep traffic running

[kieran2698]

AS I keep saying, there is no point building a railway to Nong Khai if there is nothing to join to in Laos. This is stupid, pie in the sky planning. At least wait until Laos have agreed a deal with China too.

The Laos part of the project was aproved in 2012 but their lender will not release the money until the Thai side receives their funding. So you see, it is not Thailand who needs to wait for Laos but, actually it is Thailand who are holding the whole project back.

[ourmanflint]

AS I keep saying, there is no point building a railway to Nong Khai if there is nothing to join to in Laos. This is stupid, pie in the sky planning. At least wait until Laos have agreed a deal with China too.

The Laos part of the project was aproved in 2012 but their lender will not release the money until the Thai side receives their funding. So you see, it is not Thailand who needs to wait for Laos but, actually it is Thailand who are holding the whole project back.

Any links to support that? My understanding is that the cost will bankrupt Laos.

Edited February 7, 2015 by ourmanflint

[kieran2698]

AS I keep saying, there is no point building a railway to Nong Khai if there is nothing to join to in Laos. This is stupid, pie in the sky planning. At least wait until Laos have agreed a deal with China too.

The Laos part of the project was aproved in 2012 but their lender will not release the money until the Thai side receives their funding. So you see, it is not Thailand who needs to wait for Laos but, actually it is Thailand who are holding the whole project back.

Any links to support that? My understanding is that the cost will bankrupt Laos.

Sorry, I was actually a bit out of date. The 2012 aggreement had it's funds held until China pulled out altogether. They have now come to a new agreement.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/laos/railway-project-10062014181543.html

Edited February 7, 2015 by kieran2698

[German Viking]

By Standard Guage - did they mean

Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

It simply means Made in China - or in other words fast-cheap-deadly

If the chinese built these tracks in the same quality like they did during the last decade in southern africa, then god bless Thailand.

[German Viking]

By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

Makes no sence to me, stop the old unprofitable tracks let them rotten away the iron will disappear alone.

Or just use the old tracks partly for tourist with handcars and don't forget to charge the foreign tourist tenfold and you turn a unsuccessful business in a moneyprinting machine, but only when you can attract a lot of quality tourists who pay this price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7R6WI-AYbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg8x-w9R5GU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-VJ8mpToi8

[German Viking]

Let the Japanese build it. They already build the bridge over the river Kwai.

You need a History lesson. The bridge was built by using Allied Prisoners of War as slave labour. I and many others who lost members of our family who are now buried in graves at Kanchanaburi do not appreciate your 'joke'.

The bridge which was built by allied PW's is long gone burned down, the actually bridge is a simple ironbridge far not as beautiful as this old woodenbrigde unfortunately. I could not find an original photo, but looked maybe similar as in the movie.

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geek.com.do%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2Fthe-bridge-on-the-river-kwai.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geek.com.do%2Fcamino-oscar-30-the-bridge-on-the-river-kwai%2F&h=813&w=1919&tbnid=3B84u8pZYDJPzM%3A&zoom=1&docid=VTIKE8b-92BvvM&ei=O43WVKXpAtLjasq-ghg&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1883&page=1&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=0CDIQrQMwBg

Bridge today.

http://www.thaiflyingclub.com/images/linkAirportPics/picAirportRiverKwaiBridge.JPG

RIP to all the victims of this railway.

[German Viking]

AS I keep saying, there is no point building a railway to Nong Khai if there is nothing to join to in Laos. This is stupid, pie in the sky planning. At least wait until Laos have agreed a deal with China too.

The Laos part of the project was aproved in 2012 but their lender will not release the money until the Thai side receives their funding. So you see, it is not Thailand who needs to wait for Laos but, actually it is Thailand who are holding the whole project back.

Any links to support that? My understanding is that the cost will bankrupt Laos.

This is while Thailand is still thinking and not release the money, to risky maybe not enough benefits for Thailand.

[German Viking]

If I would be the ruler of Laos, then I would not take this Loan from China.

IMO just another trick to take over a country, just make it first bankrupt to take it cheap over.

[ExPratt]

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By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

Makes no sence to me, stop the old unprofitable tracks let them rotten away the iron will disappear alone.

Or just use the old tracks partly for tourist with handcars and don't forget to charge the foreign tourist tenfold and you turn a unsuccessful business in a moneyprinting machine, but only when you can attract a lot of quality tourists who pay this price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7R6WI-AYbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg8x-w9R5GU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-VJ8mpToi8

They will have to build the majority of the new Railway inside the Right of way (RoW)of the existing Track, To built outside of the RoW would mean massive land acquisitions and a huge amount of money. Thats why I am so interested to see the new route alignment , but I would say they are a long way from producing it

[Crossy]

The bridge which was built by allied PW's is long gone burned down, the actually bridge is a simple ironbridge far not as beautiful as this old woodenbrigde unfortunately. I could not find an original photo, but looked maybe similar as in the movie.

Nothing like the movie bridge, the original wooden bridge was a rather boring trestle affair.

Photos here http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/ww2/kwai.htm

Back on topic now

Like ExPratt and also being in the industry I'll be very interested in the alignment and techniques used.

[Thai at Heart]

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By Standard Guage - did they mean Standard gauge: 4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in / 1,435 mm?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

But isn't Thailand currently running on 1,000 mm? That means they will have to remove all existing lines and replace them with 1,435 mm. Huge job and huge cost.

Makes no sence to me, stop the old unprofitable tracks let them rotten away the iron will disappear alone.

Or just use the old tracks partly for tourist with handcars and don't forget to charge the foreign tourist tenfold and you turn a unsuccessful business in a moneyprinting machine, but only when you can attract a lot of quality tourists who pay this price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg8x-w9R5GU

They will have to build the majority of the new Railway inside the Right of way (RoW)of the existing Track, To built outside of the RoW would mean massive land acquisitions and a huge amount of money. Thats why I am so interested to see the new route alignment , but I would say they are a long way from producing it

Well, I may be mistaken, but the lines to Nong khai are a single line so at some point they need to buy some land to have a second line. Beyond that, the line goes straight into the centre of most of the cities on a single line with houses in touching distance.

They can't be planning to follow this old route completelt can they?

[ExPratt]

A Railway has a Right of way which is land either side of the Track, Normally max of about 7 to 10 metres overall , they tend to build on that to save Money from buying land. They will probably be following the majority of the old route, the ground (Formation) will be excavated and replaced with a new formation

Pictures of new Track Formation

Edited February 8, 2015 by ExPratt

[whatawonderfulday]

Excellent news for the junta and unelected cronies. Faster than expected may well mean it did not take as long to set up a new offshore bank for the skimming of 35% of the project cost to be deposited for them.

Of course things will slow down if and when a real democratic government ever gets elected and instigates true transparent contract bidding and award processes and ensure proper project governance, but the current incumbents will be well and truly wealthy by then and as is historically the case "will no longer give a t*ss* about the general populace, not that they do much now I suspect.

[kieran2698]

AS I keep saying, there is no point building a railway to Nong Khai if there is nothing to join to in Laos. This is stupid, pie in the sky planning. At least wait until Laos have agreed a deal with China too.

The Laos part of the project was aproved in 2012 but their lender will not release the money until the Thai side receives their funding. So you see, it is not Thailand who needs to wait for Laos but, actually it is Thailand who are holding the whole project back.

Any links to support that? My understanding is that the cost will bankrupt Laos.

This is while Thailand is still thinking and not release the money, to risky maybe not enough benefits for Thailand.

Thailands delay is more due to the political instability of the past couple of years than them being unaware of the advantages.

[Ricardo]

Excellent news for the junta and unelected cronies. Faster than expected may well mean it did not take as long to set up a new offshore bank for the skimming of 35% of the project cost to be deposited for them.

Of course things will slow down if and when a real democratic government ever gets elected and instigates true transparent contract bidding and award processes and ensure proper project governance, but the current incumbents will be well and truly wealthy by then and as is historically the case "will no longer give a t*ss* about the general populace, not that they do much now I suspect.

I'm interested to see that you believe the skimming on this project will be 35%, an increase from the old PTP-standard of 30%, do you have a source for that or is it merely an unsupported opinion or forecast ?

And why would it be necessary to create a new offshore bank, wouldn't it be faster to use the old Amply-Rich ones, in the B.V.I., like previous administrations ?

Not that I'd expect this project to be corruption-free, this is after all Thailand, and one can only hope that the Chinese project-management would restrain the usual Gadarene-rush for the trough, since they're putting-in the bulk of the money, and require a functioning medium-speed freight-railway at the end of it all.