Brahman

[C-sip-degree]

Hello folks

I thought I'll ask the question on Brahman cattle for the pro's, after reading through your Q@A I'm interested.

I would like to hear from maizefarmer, chownah, keep it simply guys "Bos Taurus" "Bos Indicus"

hump or not!!

My cows seem to get a black headed pimple 10 maybe 20 spots now and then on them.

My first understanding is it comes from a insect bite (wasp maybe) they can get as big as a piece of chewed chewing gum look-a-like, with the help of (local vet and injections for them) they dry up and or fall out leaving a root hole in the animals back which heals in time.

Any Ideas how to avoid in the future.

cheers

Matt

PS Not sure if Bambina joke is funny, fencing posts wires getting crossed there I think.

[Maizefarmer]

Forty Degrees

Could be one of 3 things (all insect related) - but more background required.

- is it a seasonal or a year round occurance?

- are the cattle feeding in long or short grass?

Tim

[C-sip-degree]

Forty Degrees

Could be one of 3 things (all insect related) - but more background required.

- is it a seasonal or a year round occurance?

- are the cattle feeding in long or short grass?

Tim

Maizefarmer

Seasonal hard to say, I think yes worst months say (april, may, june)

Feeding short grass due to hand-cut style of feeding.

They tend not to be roamers for feeding, again due the cut and carry feeding way.

They have two areas cow sheds etc in the Village, then farm land 5min walk etc away.

Night drop nets (blue style netting) is used after 5pm. Shower and or wipe down everyday.

Area: Roi-et then Salaphum, 25k out of here.

Cheers Matt

[Korat Correct]

Brahman cattle are the major local breed of cattle kept, presumably because they have the most disease resistant traits.

I cannot for the life of me think why though. There conformation is unsuitable for real beef production and their milking prolificacy is poor compared to the "black and whites".

Most male calves are killed off at six months for what stands for the small Thai beef market. Understandably as the Buddists prefer not eat the stuff. For the Caucasian market it has no flavour and is tough, mainly due to the processing system.

The high value females are prized as are prime breeding bulls and that seems to be the main reason for keeping them. The other being their lawnmowing ability and manure provision.

The peasant farmers I know keep them as status symbols and because they grow into money. Grazing is often hired out and stock taken in.

Buffalo were the powerhouse for the plough but have been replaced by the combustion engine.There market has mostly collapsed.

Keep Brahman cattle because they look nice and you like to have nice looking cattle on your holding but their economics look suspect,compared to developing a beef or dairy specialist or even dual purpose animal. The improvement should come from imported dairy or continental cattle semen.

[Maizefarmer]

I have always been a strong believer that there is no ideal cow of Thailand (beef or milk wise).

There are a few (literally a handful) of Holsteins kept by some of the big commercial companies which produce around over 8000kg’s on a 44 week cycle – in Thailand.

Take that cow out of its climate controlled barn and its yield will drop to less than 2000kg p/44 weeks.

At the other extreme I have purchased 1year olds and 2 year old on 1st or 2nd cycle that had good body scores and were well proportioned for milk yield, but which I would never choose because of what they were mad up from – and have gone on to produce much more than some of my carefully bred Holstein/Friesian.

The point is – the productivity of milk cows in Thailand is VERY much down to the management model adopted by the farmer on a case by case basis, as opposed to the “type” of cow it is.

Can I get my stock to produce more milk?

I could double the yield of about 20% of the cows, and get yield up by more than 50% on about half the cows and the rest up by about 30% - across the cycle.

But the management model that I would have to adopt to achieve that, would mean I tighter margins & less profit at the end of the day

What is a fairly commonly accepted rule here in Thailand is that using straws of imported semen from “high yield” stock in Europe/Australia can be a complete waste. The genetics are very much suited for the conditions under which they are kept, and not Thailand, and the adoption of European livestock management models, has time and time again shown to fail in Thailand – simply because farm gate prices of produce (i.e. milk & beef) are so much lower than they are in Europe - where in any case milk farmers would go out of business overnight - using those same carefully thought out management models were it not for the ###### quota and subsidy system that keeps theirs heads above water….

So distorted is that system that it is actually cheaper for the Thai government to import processed dry/skimmed milk & dairy products, than it is for the Government to maintain farm gate prices for guys like myself and RandomChances (and all other Thai dairy farmers for that matter…).

RDC – next time the milk farmers go down to Government house to turn their urns out on the front lawn, shall we join them with a few urns of our own??

Edited August 23, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Korat Correct]

Interesting response from Maizefarmer but nothing to do with the original question.

Feeding Brahmans might be of interest.

Presumably you grow maize?

Do you feed it to your cattle and if so how and when?

Ruzi grass is grown for more intensive systems, and rice straw, supplemented by concentrates at £90 per ton, for the less intensive.

Brahman stock,unless prize animals, usually get the rubbish grass and live off a very poor diet.

There has been much talk of cruelty to animals in the press. Some Brahman cattle in the Issan countryside look half starved while waiting for the rains to improve their grazing.

I think they call the poor land and stock Heng Leng, which means barren.

[Maizefarmer]

Korat Correct

Currently I have 512 rai of maize. In the wet season it serves a dual prupose

a)cut daily with a forage harvester and feed fresh as a mix with fresh cut Ruzi (of which at the moment I have 246 rai.

B)About ½ way through the wet season I start cutting both to ensile for late wet season and dry season – the “model” been a gradual change over from a predominantly fresh forage diet towards an ensiled diet starting about now and been completed by the end of the 1st week October.

The Ruzi is crop is worked through about every 45 days at which point the field is fertalised – increasing so until yield versus the amount of fertiliser required to maintain growth rate, tips it over “economic point” – which is around 45cm/45 days

That is balanced against rainfall and irrigation costs, which on average means the crop is replanted approx every 30 – 36 months. After 2 Ruzi growings on average the field is left fallow for a season.

The ruzi is maintained in the dry season at a much low growth rate, but the maize is not. I have done it before, but on balance the cost of having to dump huge amounts of water outweighs what is returned in milk yields. I’ve tried it, only to establish wether or not it would be possible to stay in the black is I had to.

Livestock are fed twice per day and have access to roughage throughout.

Concentrates – mixed primarily from fishmeal or other high bypass type protein base. Percentages vary from as low as 14% to as high as 21% from cow to cow – i.e. pregnant/not pregnant, dry and what point it is in the lactation cycle.

Yup, commercial concentrates are not cheap. Mixing yourself from base products is an option, but it’s the old story of scale of economies i.e. not worth mixing yourself unless the bulk you mix is large enough to justify the cost is hiring a truck to get down to a fish factory (or fishing port) on the coast to purchase 20 or 30 tons of fish by product. You could produce 21% concentrate (including cost of other additives and binder) down by about 40% - 50% less than what a comparable high by pass would cost to buy from CP, SAHA or one of the other big Thai feed mill companies.

I think we have a misunderstanding………… I was not trying to answer your question but add to what you had said – which by and large I agreed with. Regards your observations on Brahman – yes, the average Brahman you see in Thailand lives off a poor diet and is often in a “heng leng” state. My comment was, that this was not always because of the limitation of the cow per say, but the consequence of how it is “managed” by the farmer, who in Thailand, is up against the wall right from the start on 2 points: namely poverty, which limits the facilities/land and grazing he can offer that animal, and secondly, education and lack of animal husbandry skills.

Address the above problems (easier said than done!) and have in place a good mangement policy (for that breed), and I belive it has the potential to be economically viable. That was the point I wastrying to make - which to a large extent it is my opinion applies to ALL cattle in Thailand - choose it for the conditions you have and can control, and managment it correctly for those conditions. A low potentional breed managed carefully will give you less hassle and better margins, than a high potential breed choosen for its "potential" but not supported with the right conditions

.

Tim

Edited August 23, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[JungleBiker]

Interesting response from Maizefarmer but nothing to do with the original question.

Your responses were also interesting but nothing to do with black pimples!

I guess Matt and the rest of us are still waiting for someone to explain the black pimples...? Tim asked for more information, Matt replied, and so now were all are waiting in suspense to find out from Tim which of the 3 possible insects caused the problem and how to prevent it...

[Maizefarmer]

I have to be careful here …….. if I say its insect ABC, some couch farmer will use the info on the net…. and come back with a document contradicting what I said.

Anyhow – not skin anthrax, which is still common in Thailand amongst cattle, and which often repeats it’s self in the same animal/herd which feed repeatedly on the same ground season after season. Its seldom seen in cattle which are fed “cut & carry”, usually amongst cattle that feed on land as the spores are in the soil ect ect…..

Theres quite a bit around, and easily treated with antibiotics. The spots you describe could easily be thought of as anthrax, were it not for the fact that you say they are all on the back – which is not the case with skin anthrax.

What you have is certainly a Hypoderma bovine infection, but which vector and which parasite its leaving behind is the question.

I asked about long grass/versus short grass because some of the vectors in Thailand hang onto grass stalks (i.e. long or longish grass), attach themselves to the legs, and then migrate under the hide upwards to the back – which helps explain the concentration in certain areas – in your case the back. That vector is not found in short grass and is not a problem with “cut & carry” methods – it quickly drops off.

So that would appear to eliminate a whole series of potential vectors.

But Hypoderma bovine infection can come from a whole host of vectors in South East Asia, and in your case as the cattle are feedlot fed, I think we are looking at a fly as opposed to a wasp, only because the wasp vectors which are in Thailand tend to not like the dusty areas around feedlots. Thats a generalisation, and of cause there will be exceptions. So which fly, I haven’t worked out.

I was going to ask you which antibiotic your vet used – but a useless question in Thailand because a lot of vets will give whatever they have in their bag, and secondly in Thailand the active ingredient of anti biotics is limited – i.e. a hundred different tradenames all using one of half a dozen or so active ingredients – and yes, you can use antibiotics to combat a lot of parasitical problems.

So no – the question is not answered yet, and I am going to have to ask around – the missus just shakes her had and says “mai loo, send a photo”.

Will come back with something more specific in a day or so…

Are the lesions all up near the neck i.e. out of tail reach? That often explains a lot i.e. a flying insect that needs to settle down undisturbed out of tail reach.

Tim

Edited August 24, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[C-sip-degree]

Interesting response from Maizefarmer but nothing to do with the original question.

Your responses were also interesting but nothing to do with black pimples!

I guess Matt and the rest of us are still waiting for someone to explain the black pimples...? Tim asked for more information, Matt replied, and so now were all are waiting in suspense to find out from Tim which of the 3 possible insects caused the problem and how to prevent it...

Cheers Junglebiker your right-on.

I was having my morning nip so it didn't bother me at all.

"Keep Brahman cattle because they look nice and you like to have nice looking cattle on your holding but their economics look suspect" dam right here economics (what a joke)

Growing guinea grass all year round ain't cheap and or buying, add this with bags of 777 plus Rum feed add's up for sure each month.

I'm not to worried with the economics for now as my boat needs only a few corks each month to keep it afloat.

Buying good predigree cattle for breeding purposes is tuff as the cost of the animals is well up there again yes (economics "yes" but understand this I was drunk at this time)

Paying a number with five zeros backing it is quite common. Have a look around if you don't believe me.

Milk'r cows no comment.

Wear as Beef cattle to me are in totally different ball park from my understanding, hel_l I would love to see my cattle eat hay for once and or forage on farm land rather than standing out there looking dum in the sun.

I'm going to have ago farming with beef cattle down the line.

But don't forget the average farmer dosen't own 100 to 500 Ria, where talking here 5-10-25 max which is quite normal it's not a business it's a way of life.

The norm is to do the rice once every year or have a "Round Eye pay for it even better" having a cow or buf is a bonus, then years down the track they may sell something too the market and make a buck.

Don't think your going to start from scratch and make money. (dream on people)

Look at it on a small scale folks.

20 Ria costs.....

Your House unless you want to live with the animals (normal TS here)

Farm sheds cost.......

Power/ Water/Worker/ then add in you cattle stock after all is said and done, how many years have too pass before you will see 1$ back in your hand.

You talk about economics, please advise on how I can make money here if you have the answers I would love to know.

Or ask yourself this then, "how many T farmers have UBC running through there TV sets".

That's the One that should of been posted yes!.

Now back to these 3 possible insects?

Cheers

Matt

[C-sip-degree]

I have to be careful here …….. if I say its insect ABC, some couch farmer will use the info on the net…. and come back with a document contradicting what I said.

Anyhow – not skin anthrax, which is still common in Thailand amongst cattle, and which often repeats it’s self in the same animal/herd which feed repeatedly on the same ground season after season. Its seldom seen in cattle which are fed “cut & carry”, usually amongst cattle that feed on land as the spores are in the soil ect ect…..

Theres quite a bit around, and easily treated with antibiotics. The spots you describe could easily be thought of as anthrax, were it not for the fact that you say they are all on the back – which is not the case with skin anthrax.

What you have is certainly a Hypoderma bovine infection, but which vector and which parasite its leaving behind is the question.

I asked about long grass/versus short grass because some of the vectors in Thailand hang onto grass stalks (i.e. long or longish grass), attach themselves to the legs, and then migrate under the hide upwards to the back – which helps explain the concentration in certain areas – in your case the back. That vector is not found in short grass and is not a problem with “cut & carry” methods – it quickly drops off.

So that would appear to eliminate a whole series of potential vectors.

But Hypoderma bovine infection can come from a whole host of vectors in South East Asia, and in your case as the cattle are feedlot fed, I think we are looking at a fly as opposed to a wasp, only because the wasp vectors which are in Thailand tend to not like the dusty areas around feedlots. Thats a generalisation, and of cause there will be exceptions. So which fly, I haven’t worked out.

I was going to ask you which antibiotic your vet used – but a useless question in Thailand because a lot of vets will give whatever they have in their bag, and secondly in Thailand the active ingredient of anti biotics is limited – i.e. a hundred different tradenames all using one of half a dozen or so active ingredients – and yes, you can use antibiotics to combat a lot of parasitical problems.

So no – the question is not answered yet, and I am going to have to ask around – the missus just shakes her had and says “mai loo, send a photo”.

Will come back with something more specific in a day or so…

Are the lesions all up near the neck i.e. out of tail reach? That often explains a lot i.e. a flying insect that needs to settle down undisturbed out of tail reach.

Tim

Tim,

I think you might be on the right track (fly)

Lesions are around the lower back, on hump, outside of one ear, one or two around the stomach out of tail reach yes and no.

I'm also thinking bitten while resting, when you talked about fly's there is one out there that moves like a spider, jumps and flys?.

Some Vets seems too know what's up and the correct injection given, most lesions have healed and the cows are in good health.

I have the name/number of injection but know idea at the moment as I'm offshore.

Photo not available as yet .

The Farmhand keeps better control of the netting before night now which has helped I feel.

Cheers

Matt

[Korat Correct]

Maizefarmer

I hope you are not running to stand still.

I recognise that farming here is as precarious as it was in the UK where I sold 40000kg of meat a year from grass.

To avoid boring the masses I will post to you a letter on "Food for Thought or More support for Thailands Farmers" so far unpublished in the Nation.

What I wanted to ask you was what do you do with your calves? Do you sell on any males/ females at 6 weeks? You keep th replacements you need but do you finish any black and whites?

Holsteins are difficult to profit from but Friesian types, I might have a market for?

[Maizefarmer]

Korat Correct

Running to a standstill – you mean pushing the milkers to their yield limits?

(did I understand that correctly?)

No – but must be honest with all and say yes, I am guilty of doing so in the past in my quest for more milk/more money – and I learn’t a very hard lesson. Burnout on livestock within 8-10 years – cruel anywhere, more so in Thailand because the conditions here to start with not very milker friendly – high heat constantly, and high humidity. Thailand is not the ideal environment for dairy cows – which makes management of the cow a far more significant issue than it is in Europe.

I think I am running the dairy herd at around 70% of its real potential – partly because my management model is very well sorted for that yield (i.e. cost of input versus what I am earning in milk yield), and partly, because to increase yields I would have to start messing around with a well established 44 week and 305 day cycle – both of which depending on the actual cow, I have found they are well settled into and comfortable with….

Regards Finshing and keeping.

I have both beef and dairy.

AI is practised.

Dairy males end up as veal at 45 – 52 days at export approved abbatoirs – that really is all I can do with them on this farm.

I have 3 calving seasons one year followed by 2 the next year, then back to 3. That’s the way the herd is structured – which along with crop/forage production is a cycle which has taken about 9 years to get both working in sync.

Although I don’t like to calve dairy cows, knowing they are going to go for beef, the reality is as you well know, you have to calve to sustain milking – so depending what the abbatoir has earmarked, female dairy could go as veal, and if not stay on the farm to become milkers.

All beef stock goes to export approved abbatoirs.

No, I don’t buy in calves at all for either dairy or beef. There is a sound economic basis to that kind of farming in quota controlled Europe, but in Thailand where Thaksin & Co funds fee trade of dried dairy products and little to no help to farmers, to run a farm successfully as a commercial venture, there is a limit on the amount of statergies you can successfully adopt on one farm - mixing “finishing” with calves to be kept for beef , and calves for milk, becomes complicated.

Old milkers – not much good for the export abbatoirs - are slaughtered on the farm as well, out comes the shotgun, and then the long Spainish cured ham knife………. and the local butcher takes it off to market. I have an issue with a cow that has served this farm well throughout her life – there is no way she will leave this farm to be tied to a stake and clubbed to death as so often happens in rural Thailand – even in some of the local abbatoirs. That’s a personal sentimental thing.

In summary: I breed my replacements (AI), both beef and dairy, and anything that does not fall into the beef or dairy plan, is out the door as soon as possible.

40 000kg from grass – just for interest, how many hectares/acres were required to support that and what was the methodology – strip grazing or cut ‘n carry?

My figures vary from 33 000 – 52 000kg a year – all feedlot from mechanized “cut ‘n carry” from very roughly 300 acres – although a large portion of that goes to the dairy side of things as well (I’d have to work it out to be sure but I would reckon beef/dairy wise the grown forage is split 57/43 percentage wise, or around 130 to 140 acres to support the beef production).

I always have my eyes & ears open for a breed that has the potential to offer more, but I think it fair to say that the pure breds are not the best choice for Thailand. Freisian/Holstein mixes can do well (i.e. it is relatively easy to put in place managment models in this enviroment to support that mix of livestock). Pure Friesian ........mmmmm, not so sure about that - I'd be cautious personally.

Pure Holstein, also not sure - but it would be far easier and a better bet to manage in Thailand than a pure Freisian.

Tim

[blue eyes]

Is she not cute or what? Oh and by the way my brother-in-law is waiting for the placenta to come out to eat for the evening meal To each his own.

[lannarebirth]

Has any beef farmer in Thailand tried Brangus cattle yet? A friend of mine was the first to introduce that strain to Baja California 20 years ago and they have thrived.

http://cattle-today.com/Brangus.htm

Edited August 24, 2006 by lannarebirth

[JungleBiker]

To avoid boring the masses I will post to you a letter on "Food for Thought or More support for Thailands Farmers" so far unpublished in the Nation.

Hi Korat Correct, Pleeeeaaaase can you post your letter here on the forum so that we can all read it? We will not be bored! Afterall we are not the masses but just a few people interested in farming in Thailand. Thanks.

Tim, "running to stand still" = working your butt off, but not making any money.

[Maizefarmer]

Yes I 2nd JB - post here for us all to see...

JB, 2004-05 turn over was Baht22 861 733.26 – that includes both dairy, beef, and the ag engineering side of the business - by training I am an ag engineer and a side line to the farm is building water pump systems, higher rise ag sprayers, providing service & parts for small Iseki and Kubota tractors, and I construct small wind turbines.

Income is approx 1/3 engineering and 2/3 farm

Minus labour costs,, minus tax, minus farm equipment maintenance, minus fuel (my biggest expense by far), minus vet fees (yup – I pay the other half for her “professional services” – like we all do one way or the other!), minus house mortgage (but not land – we finished paying off in late 2003), the company netted

Baht4.381 311.88 (2004-5) and 2005-06 is looking like 9% up on that.

- which is effectively what I paid myself 2004 - 05, out of which comes the kids education, Baht 200k + p/annum – and shortly to go up to around Baht 1.8mill p/annum (the oldest I am very happy to say is off to Uni in the USA – which is not cheap), family holiday overseas once or twice a year, food, and personal income tax. Although I am a permanent resident I still pay a lot of tax no way round that one.

Is it all work and no money – perhaps by European standards (because I do put in huge hours - even by dairy farming standards which is a 24/7 lifestyle, but it’s okay by Thai standards. But then again, the overwhelming majority of European farmers would go out of business overnight were it not for the subsidies the EU gives them. Here we get next to nothing from the government.

Would I make more if I worked as an ag engineer in Europe? At this stage in my “career” yes, I proberbly would be, but like hel_l would I be having as much fun as I have here. I wouldn’t give this life(style) up for anything – and I think I echo the feeling of every farang farmer – commercial or hobby farmer.

[chownah]

Well.....I'm mostly an organic farmer and in 2004-5 I didn't make any income from my vegetables and my wife who is in charge of the rice never added up the expenses so she doesn't know how much she made....although I have taught her that keeping records is a good idea so she could at least in theory go figure out how much she made...but it was a bad year for rice...there was some disease that knocked about 60% off of the kow chow yields all over our area....the kow neow did ok though.

In 2005-6 I started developing some vegies to sell (having learned in the previous 3 years how to get them to grow here) and I let the wife sell them and keep the money....she probably grossed 500 baht for the entire season on the vegetables (lettuce, pak gaht, peppers, corn, makeua, and more lettuce) and she didn't even offer to pay ANY of my expenses....but she did buy some of the seeds. (she knew I wasn't expecting her to pay me anything). But I have gotten to eat some of the freshest and most flavorful organic produce that is available world wide!!!!...including a host of different kinds of veggies that were not grown for sale....peanuts, cucumbers, beans, fruits, etc.

I've got a 9 horse power diesel walk behind tractor and I bet it gets more earth turned per litre of diesel than any of the tractors used by any of the other farmers who post here. I'll further bet you that my percent increase in production between this year and next will be the largest of any poster here...there is a good likelihood I will increase by 1000% (yes, with 3 zeros) or more.

Chownah

[JungleBiker]

Has any beef farmer in Thailand tried Brangus cattle yet? A friend of mine was the first to introduce that strain to Baja California 20 years ago and they have thrived.

http://cattle-today.com/Brangus.htm

Down in Ubon the university is using semen of tropically adapted Black Angus from Australia to AI native cattle. They want to produce a good beef animal that is adapted to the local environment. The first batch of F1 hybrids look nice.

Here in Khon Kaen the DLD has semen of Angus so if somebody wanted to produce their own version of Brangus they could use this semen to AI some local Brahman. Charolais semen is also available. Likewise the Tak breed (a mix of Charolais 62.5% and Brahman 37.5%).

[JungleBiker]

Has any beef farmer in Thailand tried Brangus cattle yet? A friend of mine was the first to introduce that strain to Baja California 20 years ago and they have thrived.

http://cattle-today.com/Brangus.htm

Down in Ubon the university is using semen of tropically adapted Black Angus from Australia to AI native cattle. They want to produce a good beef animal that is adapted to the local environment. The first batch of F1 hybrids look nice.

Here in Khon Kaen the DLD has semen of Angus so if somebody wanted to produce their own version of Brangus they could use this semen to AI some local Brahman. Charolais semen is also available. Likewise the Tak breed (a mix of Charolais 62.5% and Brahman 37.5%).

Edited August 25, 2006 by JungleBiker

[Nawtilus]

Yes, brangus and braford. There was another tropical breed that did well in Nth Qld and then some other tropical areas. Cannot remember its name right now, big, red and horns pointing down. Will try to remember it or find it. Old timers disease settling in.

[Nawtilus]

just found it...Santa gertrudis and droughtmasters.

All these crosses did well in the tropics, these were based on large cattle properties with generally poor vegetation.

When these cattle were put on smaller more intensive farms on the east coast or irrigation properties, they did very well.

The braford did better in more central Oz areas, colder climates during winter and nights, but hot days.

All crossed with brahman and had very good tropical survivability and pest, particulalry tick resistance.

How about some of these for the dairy farmers

I also had this grand idee, I know several large cattle properties in Oz, I have a friend in particular who does business with many large pastoral companies accross northern qld.

I had thought to buy cheap weaners and ship here, fatten and sell, but then I realised that these cattle are a little bit more agile than anything that the Thais would be used to, seeing the thai farmer trying to keep this heard together by the side of the road would make a great video for 'funniest home video'. Most of these weaners never see human beings before they are weaned and are a little wayward to say the least.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Nawtilus

[Nawtilus]

MF.....how do you think any of these breeds would get on in Los.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aford/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ander/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ntred/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/BRANGUS/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aster/index.htm

Edited August 25, 2006 by Nawtilus

[Korat Correct]

Maizefarmer

I think I understood that you had Fresian type dairy heifer calves for sale?

Please email me with your details.

The Angus semen available in the NE, on your dairy heifers or even smaller cows is ideal for easy calving.

I also think it would do well on the Jersey/Guernsey type local Thai cow. A much preferred type to Brahman for the falang small holder. You can keep more smaller cows!

I used only Simmental bulls on my 75 dairy cross beef cows expecting calves to put on MORE than one kilo per day.

Angus cross rearers should aim to finish calves at 18 months weighing about 4-500kgs. Processing is very important and facilities need to be very good if selling on the open market.Marketting is even more important, but let me know if you have prime beef to sell near Korat.

It seems that my unpublished letter to the Nation is of interest so I will get round to sharing it if you cannot transpose it from the email I sent you.

Please help yourself

[JungleBiker]

I also think it would do well on the Jersey/Guernsey type local Thai cow. A much preferred type to Brahman for the falang small holder. You can keep more smaller cows!

Yes, that's exactly what they are doing at the university in Ubon. Not specifically for the falang smallholder, but the Thai smallholder.

I will try again to attach a photo of one of the F1 hybrids.

[JungleBiker]

JB, 2004-05 turn over was Baht22 861 733.26 – the company netted Baht4.381 311.88 (2004-5) and 2005-06 is looking like 9% up on that.

Tim, what type of accounting or farm management software are you using, or is it just an Excel sheet?

[JungleBiker]

Currently I have 512 rai of maize. In the wet season it serves a dual prupose

a)cut daily with a forage harvester and feed fresh as a mix with fresh cut Ruzi (of which at the moment I have 246 rai.

Livestock are fed twice per day and have access to roughage throughout.

Tim

Tim, This means that your cows never go out to graze but you "cut and carry" all the time. I am curious to know why you use this system rather than grazing despite the high fuel costs that you mentioned in another reply? I guess it is to get more forage and therefore milk/meat from your land?

Thanks.

P.S. I will PM you soon with more info about the Italian farm in Laos.

[RamdomChances]

C-sip degree. Its virtualy impossible to diagnose what it is without seeing it, not that I've ever came across anything like that anyway, our biggest problem is tick's. It sound like you are doing all you can, with the netting at night ect.

Do you inject any anti parasitic stuff (ivomec). They are doing a pour on solution as well now for skin parasites but it's expensive. We spray our cows every now and again to get rid of ticks, just some ideas for you. Its worth doing the ivomec or simular injections.

MF

At the other extreme I have purchased 1year olds and 2 year old on 1st or 2nd cycle that had good body scores and were well proportioned for milk yield, but which I would never choose because of what they were mad up from – and have gone on to produce much more than some of my carefully bred Holstein/Friesian.

Ain't that the truth. I have a different stratergy than you, I don't breed anymore, but buy and sell, so we have a fair turnover of animals, some of my best milkers are just some bizzar mix. I've one cow I bought as part of a job lot of about 18 month 1st pregnancy saow's horrible looking animal, really thin, still had horns (each going in different directions). I would never of bought it on it's own, it turned out to be one of my best milkers which was lucky really I I'd get bugger all if I tried to sell it as it's so scrawny, wont put weight on no matter what we do, had it about 4 years now. I think for here your better off tring to buy dairy on the lower end of the body score scale, slightly thinner than whats accepted as ideal in the west seems to do better here, probaly due to the heat.

Can I get my stock to produce more milk?

I could double the yield of about 20% of the cows, and get yield up by more than 50% on about half the cows and the rest up by about 30% - across the cycle.

But the management model that I would have to adopt to achieve that, would mean I tighter margins & less profit at the end of the day

Yep, it's not just about yield, you have to work out the cost/return on any food, I've fallen into that trap before

So distorted is that system that it is actually cheaper for the Thai government to import processed dry/skimmed milk & dairy products, than it is for the Government to maintain farm gate prices for guys like myself and RandomChances (and all other Thai dairy farmers for that matter…).

According to our Sargon (co-op) we are going to get a 3 bhat/kg increase soon, thats a big jump and I'll belive it when I see it, have you heard anything ? 18 months ago our co-op was having problems selling all it milk as they were getting more than they had contracts for, now they are screaming for the stuff as literaly about 50% of the dairy farms in the area have just sold up. Edited August 26, 2006 by RamdomChances

[Maizefarmer]

JB – I use Excel – computers are not my big skill. I employ a professional accountant to do the end of year books to satisfy the taxman.

Nope – the cows are kept in feedlots.

Down one side of the feedlot are trees for shade, in the centre are steel structures to support corrugated tin roofing (8.2m off the ground and 30m x 15m) – no sides. Along the opposite side (to the trees) are concrete feed troughs – a mixer loads them up twice a day. One side does open onto a 10 rai field – of short rough indigenous grasses (and weeds!), but it has no feed value – just space. The cows may drift out there during the morning and evening, but come the sun or rain, if not eating, they spend their time under the raised roof.

The reason: if they were grazing in the fields I would have little control on what they ate and which cow ate what. Okay I could put up an electric fence for strip grazing, but the problem with that is I would have to keep replanting because ultimately they pull the roots up. Forage productivity is much higher controlling when it cut and how much is cut – and lastly, I can mix forages and silages to feed as per requirement (e.g. milkers and dry cows do not get the same feed mixes, pregnant animals get different mixes to calves ect etc…

In summary: feedlot feeding is as you suggested in your last sentence, more productive at this scale. There may well be scales of economy above or below mine, that mechanized “cut & Carry” is not viable (for economic or other reasons), but at this scale – it is. As a rule – the larger the herd, the stronger the economic argument for mechanized “cut & carry” – in particular in Thailand where high quality forages need to be managed carefully to be sustainable.

RDC – Yer, you bet – it goes to show something I am a great beliver in i.e. you can take the most mixed up horrible looking cow (genetically wise) and it will go on to outperform your “best” “most expensive” carefully bred/from expensive semen milker!

You have a whole herd of Bht25K plus “specials” and then on the spur of the moment you buy some scraggy old thing at the auction for Bht10-15K and she goes on to yield more milk than all the others! It’s happened to me many times in the past RDC.

The challenge then of course is to find out just why. My belief is that its not because you have luckily stumbled across some exotic high performance genetically perfect animal, but because your “management model” (whatever it is) is something that that particular cow “tunes” into and is very comfortable with.

Yes – I agree with you 100% - skinnier cows tend to produce more in Thailand than their fatter counterparts, and you’re dead right – it’s down to environmental temp and metabolism – they suffer less in the high heat and humidity.

Production versus Demand – same problems up here. At one point it became so bad that many of the small scale farmers (i.e. 5 – 25 milkers) would run at a loss unless they could feed their livestock for free – and so they were allowed to run feee in the bush or pegged to road sides. Any expense 9 other than the tin of concentrate at milking time) ruined the guys margin.

So all the small producers went out of business, and now the Co-Ops are screaming for milk. Point is – this country as a huge deficit of milk - and even the imported dried products do not compensate enough. Rumours about the farm gate price going up rife at the moment – figures of Baht 2 – 3 p/kg are common – will it happen, will we see 20 – 25% increase happen overnight? Me think’s not, but I do believe that sometime next dry season we will see perhaps Bht 1 – 1.2 p/kg increase occur. I sure hope so.

For those of you who don’t know – we sell our milk by the kg, but its price in the shop is much higher and by metric volume – not mass.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

mmmmmmmmm.............Afrikander, that would be my choice out of the bunch- sounds like a real tough animal - and the South Africans have really got their act together when it comes to livestock breeding. With the poor state the RSA currency is in at the moment - one should be able to pick a few of them up at a fair price. Thats the other thing - would cost a fair bit to get them here, but looks as though they could live off anything.

Tim

MF.....how do you think any of these breeds would get on in Los.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aford/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ander/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ntred/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/BRANGUS/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aster/index.htm