Noob questions about riding manual

[dave_boo]

Would like to run a quick and completely unscientific poll here.

When on track, do you cover your brakes?

For me, no.

For ll2, obviously no, as surmised from his posts.

What about the rest of you? Once again, I'm talking specifically about being on track, not on city roads.

I understand it's a quick and completely unscientific poll, but qualify.

Cover your brakes...100%...occasionally...never...

If I'm not mistaken, the discussion up till now is to cover your brakes 100% of the time or at least, most of the time as it relates to e-braking. On track, one may only need to cover one's brakes for what, 5% of the time?

So to refine my question, it should read:

When on track, do you cover your brakes most of the time?

No.

Of course I am a n00b and have not had instruction so take my answer as you will.

[ll2]

i do not cover my brakes on a track.

no need for that as no emergency braking and i have other things to focus such as braking points etc.

and it is hard to control the bike especially while leaning if you are covering the brakes as you need leverage power and you need to grab the handle bars.

but there are other riders using different techniques. some might ride with brakes covered but that is not me and not my trainers not the riders i see at the track and not most of the moto gp riders.

so, what we are discussion here? are we discussing some of the best track riders and racers on Earth? i am sure they are not doing wrong and if it is wrong, i am sure they cannot me champions, no?

Edited February 18, 2015 by ll2

[taninthai]

I cover my brakes 100% on track,not for any specific reason its just the way I have always ridden road or track front brake always covered with two fingers

Edited February 18, 2015 by taninthai

[garryjohns]

I was going to make a comment but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one slimy member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

Stay tuned.

[ll2]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I was going to make a comment but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one slimy member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

Stay tuned.

I was going to make a comment on this braking topic,but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one extreme boundary pusher member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

slimy member or extreme boundary pusher member?

if me, i prefer extreme boundary pushing one:)

Edited February 18, 2015 by ll2

[garryjohns]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I was going to make a comment but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one slimy member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

Stay tuned.

I was going to make a comment on this braking topic,but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one extreme boundary pusher member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

slimy member or extreme boundary pusher member?

if me, i prefer extreme boundary pushing one:)

Bloody reception in the outback is not good to night

Wouldn;t load my replies correctly.

But yes maybe a combination would be appropriate.

I assume you realise that this is not aimed at you, and"m sure you know full well who this member is.

[Phra Ek]

I see the OP has not been back since post #16 of this #130 posts rant.

This forum will not get any 'new blood' if all they see is playground fighting.

We all ride a bit differently and we all ride under different conditions and on different bikes - just post your advice, read other's viewpoints and move on.

There's no need to batter others with your track-day/instructor honed wisdom in a futile attempt to make them change their mind to your point of view.

[Shurup]

I see the OP has not been back since post #16 of this #130 posts rant.

This forum will not get any 'new blood' if all they see is playground fighting.

We all ride a bit differently and we all ride under different conditions and on different bikes - just post your advice, read other's viewpoints and move on.

There's no need to batter others with your track-day/instructor honed wisdom in a futile attempt to make them change their mind to your point of view.

I bet the OP got his answer, that's why he's not "back".

When I get my answers, I don't mind the rant, there's some useful info if you read it all, you just need to learn to filter out all the junk...

[Gweiloman]

I see the OP has not been back since post #16 of this #130 posts rant.

This forum will not get any 'new blood' if all they see is playground fighting.

We all ride a bit differently and we all ride under different conditions and on different bikes - just post your advice, read other's viewpoints and move on.

There's no need to batter others with your track-day/instructor honed wisdom in a futile attempt to make them change their mind to your point of view.

I bet the OP got his answer, that's why he's not "back".

When I get my answers, I don't mind the rant, there's some useful info if you read it all, you just need to learn to filter out all the junk...

I agree. The discussions about whether or not to cover your brakes was a good one I thought. Made me look for the video and that drives the point home well.

Also interesting that in UK and Europe (apparently), riders are taught NOT to cover their brakes when riding.... hmmm..

[andreandre]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Come on man i'm not going to go toe to toe with you again..get real man!!...The deflection i mention is because of what started out as you making a point about YOU on a TRACKDAY, nothing at all to do with the GP riders methods..[surely you don't really believe that you are in their league??} or anywhere near it as none of us mortals are....Lets go back a little and you need to calm down a bit...Originally you said this

..:but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

My reply in 100% full ageement with you as follows

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Then i asked a very simple polite question of you:viz:

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Next you posted;

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

My response..note ,again polite and asking you to clarify;

"

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

And again polite as i know..

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

Do you get it now LL2? You still have not provided an answer to a very simple question....instead resorting to the usual insults...comeon... comparing you and your braking ideas on a basic track day..[ which is after all ,primarily to hone your road craft skills] to Marquez , a very highly skilled professional track racer is just ridiculous...There is no comparison at all ,..as i have clearly stated earlier.

EDIT..so now could you please tell me why you are advised not to cover your brakes when playing on a track? simple question needs only a simple answer.

Edited February 18, 2015 by andreandre

[yankee99]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Come on man i'm not going to go toe to toe with you again..get real man!!...The deflection i mention is because of what started out as you making a point about YOU on a TRACKDAY, nothing at all to do with the GP riders methods..[surely you don't really believe that you are in their league??} or anywhere near it as none of us mortals are....Lets go back a little and you need to calm down a bit...Originally you said this

..:but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

My reply in 100% full ageement with you as follows

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Then i asked a very simple polite question of you:viz:

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Next you posted;

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

My response..note ,again polite and asking you to clarify;

"

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

And again polite as i know..

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

Do you get it now LL2? You still have not provided an answer to a very simple question....instead resorting to the usual insults...comeon... comparing you and your braking ideas on a basic track day..[ which is after all ,primarily to hone your road craft skills] to Marquez , a very highly skilled professional track racer is just ridiculous...There is no comparison at all ,..as i have clearly stated earlier.

EDIT..so now could you please tell me why you are advised not to cover your brakes when playing on a track? simple question needs only a simple answer.

Wow im surprised this hasn't got locked with all the baiting!

[macknife]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Come on man i'm not going to go toe to toe with you again..get real man!!...The deflection i mention is because of what started out as you making a point about YOU on a TRACKDAY, nothing at all to do with the GP riders methods..[surely you don't really believe that you are in their league??} or anywhere near it as none of us mortals are....Lets go back a little and you need to calm down a bit...Originally you said this

..:but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

My reply in 100% full ageement with you as follows

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Then i asked a very simple polite question of you:viz:

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Next you posted;

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

My response..note ,again polite and asking you to clarify;

"

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

And again polite as i know..

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

Do you get it now LL2? You still have not provided an answer to a very simple question....instead resorting to the usual insults...comeon... comparing you and your braking ideas on a basic track day..[ which is after all ,primarily to hone your road craft skills] to Marquez , a very highly skilled professional track racer is just ridiculous...There is no comparison at all ,..as i have clearly stated earlier.

EDIT..so now could you please tell me why you are advised not to cover your brakes when playing on a track? simple question needs only a simple answer.

It looks to me that he did answer your question. You're on a track to go as fast as you possibly can, not to brake as fast as you possibly can. Yes your scenario of someone crashing in front of you is a bit of a conundrum but it likely rarely happens. Perhaps he'll lose a split second? well shit happens sometimes. Anyway according to some schools of thought in some countries, one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. (though I do in Bangkok traffic)

[dave_boo]

I agree. The discussions about whether or not to cover your brakes was a good one I thought. Made me look for the video and that drives the point home well.

Also interesting that in UK and Europe (apparently), riders are taught NOT to cover their brakes when riding.... hmmm..

They're also taught it's ok to eat gastropods and oatmeal/offal stuffed sheep stomachs...take it as you will.

[dave_boo]

It looks to me that he did answer your question. You're on a track to go as fast as you possibly can, not to brake as fast as you possibly can. Yes your scenario of someone crashing in front of you is a bit of a conundrum but it likely rarely happens. Perhaps he'll lose a split second? well shit happens sometimes. Anyway according to some schools of thought in some countries, one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. (though I do in Bangkok traffic)

I am not the best rider on this board...but isn't trail braking a good way to make sure you go faster?

I.E., the faster you can brake later in the corner, and then ease up, the faster you go through that corner.

Of course I could be all wrong or misunderstand your post.

[Carol Jadzia]

If you feel you are such an amazing rider you are beyond reproach then good for you. Obviously impressed Buddha in a previous life,

so he gave you as a gift to the world of motorcycling in this one.

My son is such a person, born to ride, in the blood. Would not listen to me. Sailed through his first full licence tests with only minors. Hard to say "you should have listened" when he did not fail.

1st thing that brought his feet back to the ground was getting side swiped by a car that run a red light.

Now he has been hit in a different way. Got a speeding ticket. More expensive bike insurance in the future.

Clipped his wings a little now. Least he is still ok.

I was taught to be an instructor, to a recognised training syllabus as part of a Government Training Scheme in the late 80's.

I then spent the best part of the next 25 years training people. Up to 2 a day, 7 days a week.

Basic control skills that have been worked through and practiced thousands of times.

Millions of pounds spent developing a standard of best practice.

Basic to advanced control skills recognised around the world.

But some idiot keyboard biker on a motorcycle forum who thinks they are an expert wants to try and tell me that it's better to cover the brake when riding and worry about what gear your in while not killing someone in an emergency stop. What really?

Sorry, below my pay grade. Come back with the serious questions.

One question worth answering. Where did I get the information about fingers? Well try personal experience, watching my father get hit by a car. The British Police force advice. Also various schools of motorcycle training offer it as recognised fact as we tend to see it a lot. After all this is what we do for a living. We are not just playing at it during weekends.

You want facts? Have a look at these.

http://www.georgeinstitute.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/motorcycle-protective-clothing-protection-from-injury-or-just-the-weather-the-gear-study.pdf

[Gweiloman]

It looks to me that he did answer your question. You're on a track to go as fast as you possibly can, not to brake as fast as you possibly can. Yes your scenario of someone crashing in front of you is a bit of a conundrum but it likely rarely happens. Perhaps he'll lose a split second? well shit happens sometimes. Anyway according to some schools of thought in some countries, one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. (though I do in Bangkok traffic)

Very good point about going as fast as you can and not to brake as fast as you can, 555.

What happens when someone crashes in front of you (on a track)? Level 2 of CSS teaches exactly this - peripheral vision and avoiding target fixation. One of the drills involve the instructor leading you around the track on a by then, established line. All of a sudden, he veers off line. If you follow him, then you had target fixated on him. If you keep to your own established line, then you have merely been following him with your peripheral vision and therefore able to immediately discount that and stick to your own line.

Same thing is another rider pulls up alongside you or an out of control bike spins back onto the track. You should be seeing these out of your peripheral vision only and therefore ready to take any evasive action if necessary.

I remember an incident in Kaeng Krachan during a track day. After the hairpin at the bottom of the hill, it is a straight drag uphill followed by a long lefthander, the fastest bend of the track. The top guys are taking this at almost full speed. I was following a rider on a Z800 up the hill - he was about 70 or so metres ahead of me. As I turned into the corner, I could immediately see that he had crashed out but one of the crash barrier tyres was rolling back across the track. If I had been covering my brakes, my reaction might have been to immediately brake which would most probably have dumped me off the side of the track as well. As it was, I was going slow enough to merely throttle off, stand the bike up a little and swerve around the tyre.

I hadn't given it much thought until now but it would seem that not covering the brakes on track might be better than covering them.

[Gweiloman]

It looks to me that he did answer your question. You're on a track to go as fast as you possibly can, not to brake as fast as you possibly can. Yes your scenario of someone crashing in front of you is a bit of a conundrum but it likely rarely happens. Perhaps he'll lose a split second? well shit happens sometimes. Anyway according to some schools of thought in some countries, one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. (though I do in Bangkok traffic)

I am not the best rider on this board...but isn't trail braking a good way to make sure you go faster?

I.E., the faster you can brake later in the corner, and then ease up, the faster you go through that corner.

Of course I could be all wrong or misunderstand your post.

I don't think trail braking and covering the brakes are the same thing Dave.

[dave_boo]

I don't think trail braking and covering the brakes are the same thing Dave.

You wouldn't cover your brakes in an approach to a corner? And as your experience with that corner increased wouldn't you brake later and later while keeping your brakes covered? Again I am not claiming they need to be covered all the time.

I was responding to the "one shouldn't cover the front brake ever." part of the post which seemed wrong to me as it would not be as smooth IMHO. Nothing is absolute. And that was an absolute statement. I realise that he was not claiming it himself, but if it's brought up it can be questioned, can't it?

[dave_boo]

If you feel you are such an amazing rider you are beyond reproach then good for you. Obviously impressed Buddha in a previous life,

so he gave you as a gift to the world of motorcycling in this one.

My son is such a person, born to ride, in the blood. Would not listen to me. Sailed through his first full licence tests with only minors. Hard to say "you should have listened" when he did not fail.

1st thing that brought his feet back to the ground was getting side swiped by a car that run a red light.

Now he has been hit in a different way. Got a speeding ticket. More expensive bike insurance in the future.

Clipped his wings a little now. Least he is still ok.

I was taught to be an instructor, to a recognised training syllabus as part of a Government Training Scheme in the late 80's.

I then spent the best part of the next 25 years training people. Up to 2 a day, 7 days a week.

Basic control skills that have been worked through and practiced thousands of times.

Millions of pounds spent developing a standard of best practice.

Basic to advanced control skills recognised around the world.

But some idiot keyboard biker on a motorcycle forum who thinks they are an expert wants to try and tell me that it's better to cover the brake when riding and worry about what gear your in while not killing someone in an emergency stop. What really?

Sorry, below my pay grade. Come back with the serious questions.

One question worth answering. Where did I get the information about fingers? Well try personal experience, watching my father get hit by a car. The British Police force advice. Also various schools of motorcycle training offer it as recognised fact as we tend to see it a lot. After all this is what we do for a living. We are not just playing at it during weekends.

You want facts? Have a look at these.

http://www.georgeinstitute.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/motorcycle-protective-clothing-protection-from-injury-or-just-the-weather-the-gear-study.pdf

I had a serious question that you never got around to answering.

If a bike with a locked rear wheel regains traction it can cause a high side especially when leaned over. Correct? So would clutching during emergency braking prevent this chance of causing a high side (which I believe usually causes the worst injuries short of a head-on collision due to the increased vertical fall)?

[Gweiloman]

If you feel you are such an amazing rider you are beyond reproach then good for you. Obviously impressed Buddha in a previous life,

so he gave you as a gift to the world of motorcycling in this one.

My son is such a person, born to ride, in the blood. Would not listen to me. Sailed through his first full licence tests with only minors. Hard to say "you should have listened" when he did not fail.

1st thing that brought his feet back to the ground was getting side swiped by a car that run a red light.

Now he has been hit in a different way. Got a speeding ticket. More expensive bike insurance in the future.

Clipped his wings a little now. Least he is still ok.

I was taught to be an instructor, to a recognised training syllabus as part of a Government Training Scheme in the late 80's.

I then spent the best part of the next 25 years training people. Up to 2 a day, 7 days a week.

Basic control skills that have been worked through and practiced thousands of times.

Millions of pounds spent developing a standard of best practice.

Basic to advanced control skills recognised around the world.

But some idiot keyboard biker on a motorcycle forum who thinks they are an expert wants to try and tell me that it's better to cover the brake when riding and worry about what gear your in while not killing someone in an emergency stop. What really?

Sorry, below my pay grade. Come back with the serious questions.

One question worth answering. Where did I get the information about fingers? Well try personal experience, watching my father get hit by a car. The British Police force advice. Also various schools of motorcycle training offer it as recognised fact as we tend to see it a lot. After all this is what we do for a living. We are not just playing at it during weekends.

You want facts? Have a look at these.

http://www.georgeinstitute.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/motorcycle-protective-clothing-protection-from-injury-or-just-the-weather-the-gear-study.pdf

Let me try to understand you here Carol. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are stating that it's better NOT to cover the brakes, right? Even if it means being able to stop quicker? Forget all the other stuff about changing gears and so on for now. Let's just address the issue of whether to cover the (front) brakes or not.

How does NOT covering the brakes reduce the risk of injury to the fingers?

Incidentally, the report that you have posted seems to be about safety gear, not that covering the brakes reduces the risks or significance of injuries (not that I can see anyway, unless you are able to pinpoint that particular point?).

[Gweiloman]

I don't think trail braking and covering the brakes are the same thing Dave.

You wouldn't cover your brakes in an approach to a corner? And as your experience with that corner increased wouldn't you brake later and later while keeping your brakes covered? Again I am not claiming they need to be covered all the time.

I was responding to the "one shouldn't cover the front brake ever." part of the post which seemed wrong to me as it would not be as smooth IMHO. Nothing is absolute. And that was an absolute statement. I realise that he was not claiming it himself, but if it's brought up it can be questioned, can't it?

First off, I don't think that ll2 (assuming it is him that you are referring to) said that one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. He said that he doesn't cover his brakes, which is quite different in meaning to how you have paraphrased it.

Having said that, let's address the first part of your post. I think that the term "covering your brakes" is misleading, given the way that this thread is heading. So we need to be clear and specific as to what we mean by it. When I'm riding in the city, I cover my brakes meaning that my index and third finger is resting ever so slightly on the brake pedal so that in an emergency situation, I can brake that split second earlier than I would have been able to if I had all my fingers wrapped around the grip.

On the track on the other hand, I know where my braking point should be. There is no need for me to "cover" the brakes. All I would merely do is to release my throttle and at the same time, start braking. Why would I need to cover my brakes regardless of whether I'm braking later or earlier?

The idea of covering the brakes is to be able to brake that split second faster in an emergency situation and as evident by the video that I posted, that split second translates to metres on the road.

[Carol Jadzia]

Ok, hands up, who spotted the great big Elephant in the room?
Just in order to make the point.
Pulling in the clutch and repeatedly clicking down through the gears simple will not work.
Motorcycle gear boxes just don't work that way.
Go ahead, please. prove me wrong.

Get a mate to watch you go round the block, then at his signal stop quick as you can. As if someone stepped out.
(Make sure your mate only sticks his hand up when its safe!)
Pull the clutch in, bang down through the gears and try and pull away.
Go on please.
I will like that as I know exactly what happens next.


Motorcycle gear boxes just don't work that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_manual_transmission

There are controlled breaking techniques and ways that people are trained to deal with an emergency stop situation. But the first thing to do is stop.

There is some advantage to keeping the rear wheel turning with the engine going right to the last second. And later on, I will agree bonus if you pull it in rather than stall.

But all this talk of clicking down through, really? Just shows you have spent no time practicing it properly.

[dave_boo]

First off, I don't think that ll2 (assuming it is him that you are referring to) said that one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. He said that he doesn't cover his brakes, which is quite different in meaning to how you have paraphrased it.

Having said that, let's address the first part of your post. I think that the term "covering your brakes" is misleading, given the way that this thread is heading. So we need to be clear and specific as to what we mean by it. When I'm riding in the city, I cover my brakes meaning that my index and third finger is resting ever so slightly on the brake pedal so that in an emergency situation, I can brake that split second earlier than I would have been able to if I had all my fingers wrapped around the grip.

On the track on the other hand, I know where my braking point should be. There is no need for me to "cover" the brakes. All I would merely do is to release my throttle and at the same time, start braking. Why would I need to cover my brakes regardless of whether I'm braking later or earlier?

The idea of covering the brakes is to be able to brake that split second faster in an emergency situation and as evident by the video that I posted, that split second translates to metres on the road.

I was referencing macknife's post where he said "one shouldn't cover the front brake ever." Not a paraphrase, but a partial quotation.

I am claiming no expertise in this matter; simply asking questions. But, from my point of view, hovering the fingers over, or slightly resting them on the brakes, as one is preparing to enter a corner would allow one to be more smooth as it's not a sudden movement to initiate braking. The line of thinking, once again from an admitted non-expert, of 'covering' the brakes would allow you to keep pushing later and later into the corner before you actually got on the brakes and yet still be ready to brake hard if your current attempt was deeper than it should have been.

[Gweiloman]

First off, I don't think that ll2 (assuming it is him that you are referring to) said that one shouldn't cover the front brake ever. He said that he doesn't cover his brakes, which is quite different in meaning to how you have paraphrased it.

Having said that, let's address the first part of your post. I think that the term "covering your brakes" is misleading, given the way that this thread is heading. So we need to be clear and specific as to what we mean by it. When I'm riding in the city, I cover my brakes meaning that my index and third finger is resting ever so slightly on the brake pedal so that in an emergency situation, I can brake that split second earlier than I would have been able to if I had all my fingers wrapped around the grip.

On the track on the other hand, I know where my braking point should be. There is no need for me to "cover" the brakes. All I would merely do is to release my throttle and at the same time, start braking. Why would I need to cover my brakes regardless of whether I'm braking later or earlier?

The idea of covering the brakes is to be able to brake that split second faster in an emergency situation and as evident by the video that I posted, that split second translates to metres on the road.

I was referencing macknife's post where he said "one shouldn't cover the front brake ever." Not a paraphrase, but a partial quotation.

I am claiming no expertise in this matter; simply asking questions. But, from my point of view, hovering the fingers over, or slightly resting them on the brakes, as one is preparing to enter a corner would allow one to be more smooth as it's not a sudden movement to initiate braking. The line of thinking, once again from an admitted non-expert, of 'covering' the brakes would allow you to keep pushing later and later into the corner before you actually got on the brakes and yet still be ready to brake hard if your current attempt was deeper than it should have been.

Oic. You do realise that Macknife's comment was tongue in cheek right?

Yes, I understand what you mean. You are blasting down the straight at Bira, you have already picked your braking and turning points. As you near your braking point, you let out the index and middle fingers and rest them on the brake lever. I never really thought about this but I would consider this more as preparing to brake as opposed to covering the brakes.

Bear in mind that when the throttle is fully opened, the spring action wants to close the throttle so having all fingers on the throttle takes less effort than just the ring and pinkie.

p/s: does this Carol person ever answer a direct question?

[seedy]

I am not the best rider on this board...but isn't trail braking a good way to make sure you go faster?

My understanding about trail braking is to set the bike down on the rear suspension before corner entry. Pioneered by Fast Freddie Spencer if memory serves - he was also the first guy to 'Square' corners to increase exit speed.

Also acts to stabilize the bike I have been told.

[BKKBike09]

Hey, Carol, if you still have the energy to continue this 'discussion', what would be your response to my earlier post (and the vid posted by Gweiloman at #115)? Not looking to pick a fight - just genuinely curious. If you think it's just more 'keyboard expert' bullsh#t then feel free to say.

"I rode bikes in Central London for four years late 90s and elsewhere in UK before that. I've ridden bikes for much longer than that in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand. There's no comparison whatsoever between the two situations. In the UK, by and large, most road users generally follow the rules of the road, written and unwritten. In Thailand the complete opposite is true and, indeed, trying to follow the rules can be downright dangerous.

In the particular circumstances of filtering through Bangkok traffic, where every vehicle is trying to get into that tiny space that's just opened up and also doing their best to stop you getting into that space, surely it's best to be in a position to brake effectively, as quickly as you can, whenever you need.

If you're filtering at just 20 mph (32 kmh) then in one second you will travel 30 feet (9 m). If you're covering the front brake with two fingers shouldn't you be in a position to apply the brake fractionally faster than if you have to transition all four fingers from throttle to brake lever? It might only equate to distance travelled of a couple of feet but that could be just what you needed to avoid an accident.

This being an internet forum I'm just expressing my opinion so anyone who thinks I'm talking out of my ar*e is welcome to say ...

My point being that the driving circumstances here are so different to the UK that what is best / correct there may not always be best / correct here."

[JonnyF]

If you feel you are such an amazing rider you are beyond reproach then good for you. Obviously impressed Buddha in a previous life,

so he gave you as a gift to the world of motorcycling in this one.

My son is such a person, born to ride, in the blood. Would not listen to me. Sailed through his first full licence tests with only minors. Hard to say "you should have listened" when he did not fail.

1st thing that brought his feet back to the ground was getting side swiped by a car that run a red light.

Now he has been hit in a different way. Got a speeding ticket. More expensive bike insurance in the future.

Clipped his wings a little now. Least he is still ok.

I was taught to be an instructor, to a recognised training syllabus as part of a Government Training Scheme in the late 80's.

I then spent the best part of the next 25 years training people. Up to 2 a day, 7 days a week.

Basic control skills that have been worked through and practiced thousands of times.

Millions of pounds spent developing a standard of best practice.

Basic to advanced control skills recognised around the world.

But some idiot keyboard biker on a motorcycle forum who thinks they are an expert wants to try and tell me that it's better to cover the brake when riding and worry about what gear your in while not killing someone in an emergency stop. What really?

Sorry, below my pay grade. Come back with the serious questions.

One question worth answering. Where did I get the information about fingers? Well try personal experience, watching my father get hit by a car. The British Police force advice. Also various schools of motorcycle training offer it as recognised fact as we tend to see it a lot. After all this is what we do for a living. We are not just playing at it during weekends.

You want facts? Have a look at these.

http://www.georgeinstitute.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/motorcycle-protective-clothing-protection-from-injury-or-just-the-weather-the-gear-study.pdf

That document relates to motorcycle injuries in comparison to the protection worn. Not trying to deflect from the point are we? Fact is, you can begin the braking process quicker if you have 2 fingers already resting on the brake. It's not a difficult concept and it won't change even if you've been training people since the 1600's. Think about it for a while...

And why are you more likely to break your fingers in a crash with 2 fingers resting on the brake as opposed to all 4 fingers wrapped around the throttle? Please explain how this works.

No need on the track IMO. You ride the same lap time and time again and should have braking points worked out. No dogs, no taxi's, no soccer moms on cell phones etc.

[Jai Dee]

There has been a lot of baiting and bickering going on in this topic and moderator intervention has been requested via the Report function.

Please be civil to each other.

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[ll2]

I don't think trail braking and covering the brakes are the same thing Dave.

You wouldn't cover your brakes in an approach to a corner? And as your experience with that corner increased wouldn't you brake later and later while keeping your brakes covered? Again I am not claiming they need to be covered all the time.

I was responding to the "one shouldn't cover the front brake ever." part of the post which seemed wrong to me as it would not be as smooth IMHO. Nothing is absolute. And that was an absolute statement. I realise that he was not claiming it himself, but if it's brought up it can be questioned, can't it?

you cover you brakes just before the braking of course.

and even f you do trail braking, you cover your brakes just before you do it.

because you know where to brake or trail brake or wheelie or not whatsoever as you lap on that track a hundred times.

what we are saying is, a track is a controlled environment with a very very less possibility of something unexpected.

i am not here to criticize if one is covering his/her brakes on a track. but i just dont cover them. it is totally fine if that person feels more comfortable that way and i am sure there might be track riders covering their brakes but sure not while leaning and you lean most of your time there.

but on the streets, all brakes have to be covered or lets say all hands battlestations. and if someone is not doing that especially in a country with different dynamics like Thailand where things happen fast and unexpected unlike old blighty or slow Europe and USA.

Moreover, bikes are not the same now, they are faster too.

Edited February 19, 2015 by ll2

[dave_boo]

you cover you brakes just before the braking of course.

and even f you do trail braking, you cover your brakes just before you do it.

because you know where to brake or trail brake or wheelie or not whatsoever as you lap on that track a hundred times.

what we are saying is, a track is a controlled environment with a very very less possibility of something unexpected.

i am not here to criticize if one is covering his/her brakes on a track. but i just dont cover them. it is totally fine if that person feels more comfortable that way and i am sure there might be track riders covering their brakes but sure not while leaning and you lean most of your time there.

but on the streets, all brakes have to be covered or lets say all hands battlestations. and if someone is not doing that especially in a country with different dynamics like Thailand where things happen fast and unexpected unlike old blighty or slow Europe and USA.

Moreover, bikes are not the same now, they are faster too.

So I was correct and gweiloman and I were just not communicating properly?