Noob questions about riding manual

[andreandre]

^

because I'm am whacking it out to full throttle on the track more often it seems a little awkward sometimes when covering the front brake ,think a quick action throttle may help me on this..

I'm presuming that when you talk of trackdays you are not being instructed, just riding for fun and improving your own roadskills...doing your own thing...track riding has for me two distinct advantages...one..you can go as hard and as fast as you like thereby gaining more experience and finding both yours and your bikes limits,without cops spoiling your day and two you can do the same in a more controlled environment, safety wise....This can translate to more competence/confidence when road riding again...

Unless you aim to ride permanently on road with the QA throttle ,there is no benefit in changing it......just use every possible moment, on track to practice, practice, until covering the brake at the full throttle scenario is no longer "awkward"...

[Carol Jadzia]

My advice on motorcycle braking is well documented by others as well.

http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html

http://www.motorcycletrainingkent.com/Riding.htm

For example.

It's not just my opinion.

Also motorcycle front brake light switches are a/ noted for getting faulty with age and sticking. Also b/ normally switch on before the brake actually starts to work.

Again, this is not just my observation, this is a statement of fact. Backed up by evidence and years of experience that have lead us to offer proven long term advice.

When you have spent years teaching people on a daily basis how to do something. Starting off being told you do it this way then learning as to why.

I don't come here to prove my way is better. I really would hate to see Thailand anywhere near the restrictive practices of British Licence requirements.

But please don't try and suggest what I say is bull poo. This is far more than hearsay.

I have friends who ride 200mph + sports bikes. They now use brake and clutch levers with grooves in them to reduce wind drag on the levers when racing.

Apparently standard levers can cause the brake to apply a little and the clutch to slip ever so slightly.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Carol Jadzia

[ll2]

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

[andreandre]

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

"panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems."

Surely the above would also apply to on the road....Thats why one must practice and practice the exact same proceedure for E braking, no matter where you are riding..no involuntary reflex will occur.

To me, mastering E braking and continually practicing this regularly is paramount in being a competent and confident rider, above , probably all other skills/crafts.

Just my thoughts and methodology and it has never failed me...

Edited February 16, 2015 by andreandre

[ll2]

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

"panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems."

Surely the above would also apply to on the road....Thats why one must practice and practice the exact same proceedure for E braking, no matter where you are riding..no involuntary reflex will occur.

To me, mastering E braking and continually practicing this regularly is paramount in being a competent and confident rider, above , probably all other skills/crafts.

Just my thoughts and methodology and it has never failed me...

andre, at the track no one cuts you - normally you get a black flag if you do so - and you see things fast there so you see that bike coming in advance.

track is not the same as roads, things are fast there, you are at the limits of your bike at extreme lean angles and physically yourself too. so you are more prone to panic situations and maybe you need the leverage of your hands fully on the bars while leaning.

moreover, these guys telling me are long timers on the track so i believe they know a thing or two.

[andreandre]

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

"panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems."

Surely the above would also apply to on the road....Thats why one must practice and practice the exact same proceedure for E braking, no matter where you are riding..no involuntary reflex will occur.

To me, mastering E braking and continually practicing this regularly is paramount in being a competent and confident rider, above , probably all other skills/crafts.

Just my thoughts and methodology and it has never failed me...

andre, at the track no one cuts you - normally you get a black flag if you do so - and you see things fast there so you see that bike coming in advance.

track is not the same as roads, things are fast there, you are at the limits of your bike at extreme lean angles and physically yourself too. so you are more prone to panic situations and maybe you need the leverage of your hands fully on the bars while leaning.

moreover, these guys telling me are long timers on the track so i believe they know a thing or two.

LL2 yes i understand tracks..i have done more trackdays than i can recall and had on track instruction multi faceted. i know full well of what can be done there.. ..This OP regarded 'noobies" but i;m sure you realise that i'm no 'Noobie"

And yes i do understand black flag for rule violations...maybe you missunderstood my meaning...as i said..;..but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?..

If this happens you have to E brake...if not ,you're probably going to crash..Yes?

Anyway the point that i'm very interested in finding out , that i have asked both you and Carol Jadzia with zero information returned ; you I asked "Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

[Carol Jadzia]

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

Sorry I missed this original question. I am also currently involved in saving a pier in England and I have been distracted by some very aggressive online spammers.

Sorry if I came over a little aggressive in my recent posts as well.

It is very hard to explain why you should not ride covering the levers without demonstrating it as that is what I have spent half my life doing

A dyslexic trying to explain something only in words is almost an oxymoron

When you go for the brakes in an emergency stop what do you need to do first?

Close the throttle.

If you are riding with your fingers constantly over the levers the throttle is being held open with your thumb. Yes?

So from that position you are not able to close the throttle are you?

Yes you can release the throttle, the springs will close it? Yes that is true.

Have you noticed that most bikes today are fitted with two throttle cables? One opens, the other closes.

It is a lot quicker and far better practice to forcibly close the throttle, rather than rely on the spring.

So one reason for not covering the Throttle is it will actually take longer for you to apply the front brake if you have to move your hand to close the throttle first.

But that is not the only reason. I have already mentioned that it can and does lead to the brake light coming on. I have followed hundreds of learners. a give-away sign that they are covering their levers is that the brake light keeps coming on sometimes flickering. I have even seen people fail their tests because of it. MY ZRX1100 has 6 pot callipers on it. Thats 12 little pistons pushing on the disk when I pull on the lever. Is it not a reasonable expectation that at high speed the wind pressure on your fingers would be enough to apply some pressure to the lever?

Also not forgetting what is the most blinding point of all and touched on by somebody already - If you are not gripping the handlebars you are not in full control of the bike.

Ok - yes I have ridden no handedly. Will continue to do so as well. Not saying I am perfect, but if we are talking motorcycle theory here - I lost my front top row of teeth falling off a pushbike when I was 13 - due to riding without holding on (had just raced a bus and won as well). If you are covering the levers - your not holding on.

Hope that helps.

[dave_boo]

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

Sorry I missed this original question. I am also currently involved in saving a pier in England and I have been distracted by some very aggressive online spammers.

Sorry if I came over a little aggressive in my recent posts as well.

It is very hard to explain why you should not ride covering the levers without demonstrating it as that is what I have spent half my life doing

A dyslexic trying to explain something only in words is almost an oxymoron

When you go for the brakes in an emergency stop what do you need to do first?

Close the throttle.

If you are riding with your fingers constantly over the levers the throttle is being held open with your thumb. Yes?

So from that position you are not able to close the throttle are you?

Yes you can release the throttle, the springs will close it? Yes that is true.

Have you noticed that most bikes today are fitted with two throttle cables? One opens, the other closes.

It is a lot quicker and far better practice to forcibly close the throttle, rather than rely on the spring.

So one reason for not covering the Throttle is it will actually take longer for you to apply the front brake if you have to move your hand to close the throttle first.

But that is not the only reason. I have already mentioned that it can and does lead to the brake light coming on. I have followed hundreds of learners. a give-away sign that they are covering their levers is that the brake light keeps coming on sometimes flickering. I have even seen people fail their tests because of it. MY ZRX1100 has 6 pot callipers on it. Thats 12 little pistons pushing on the disk when I pull on the lever. Is it not a reasonable expectation that at high speed the wind pressure on your fingers would be enough to apply some pressure to the lever?

Also not forgetting what is the most blinding point of all and touched on by somebody already - If you are not gripping the handlebars you are not in full control of the bike.

Ok - yes I have ridden no handedly. Will continue to do so as well. Not saying I am perfect, but if we are talking motorcycle theory here - I lost my front top row of teeth falling off a pushbike when I was 13 - due to riding without holding on (had just raced a bus and won as well). If you are covering the levers - your not holding on.

Hope that helps.

It's not a reasonable expectation that high speed wind will apply some pressure to the lever on my bike...but I have barkbusters...

[papa al]

My advice on motorcycle braking is well documented by others as well.

http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html

http://www.motorcycletrainingkent.com/Riding.htm

For example.

It's not just my opinion.

Also motorcycle front brake light switches are a/ noted for getting faulty with age and sticking. Also b/ normally switch on before the brake actually starts to work.

Again, this is not just my observation, this is a statement of fact. Backed up by evidence and years of experience that have lead us to offer proven long term advice.

When you have spent years teaching people on a daily basis how to do something. Starting off being told you do it this way then learning as to why.

I don't come here to prove my way is better. I really would hate to see Thailand anywhere near the restrictive practices of British Licence requirements.

But please don't try and suggest what I say is bull poo. This is far more than hearsay.

I have friends who ride 200mph + sports bikes. They now use brake and clutch levers with grooves in them to reduce wind drag on the levers when racing.

Apparently standard levers can cause the brake to apply a little and the clutch to slip ever so slightly.

Carol:

The materials that you reference don't back you up; they contradict you, e.g.,

"So let's put all this together. How do you stop in the shortest possible distance? You use both brakes. You use progressively increasing pressure on the front brake, to use the increasing traction at the front as the weight shifts forward. You use light pressure on the rear brake; there isn't much traction back there because so much of the weight has shifted forward, but there's some, so use it. You squeeze the clutch and you tap on the shifter, without counting the taps, until your left foot has to go down just before you stop. "

"But I didn't say anything about it in my emergency braking discussion because it isn't effective. Consider that engine braking works on the rear wheel. If you want more braking from the rear wheel, then just press on the rear brake pedal a little more."

Please try to read with more comprehension darlin'.

[JonnyF]

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

Sorry I missed this original question. I am also currently involved in saving a pier in England and I have been distracted by some very aggressive online spammers.

Sorry if I came over a little aggressive in my recent posts as well.

It is very hard to explain why you should not ride covering the levers without demonstrating it as that is what I have spent half my life doing

A dyslexic trying to explain something only in words is almost an oxymoron

When you go for the brakes in an emergency stop what do you need to do first?

Close the throttle.

If you are riding with your fingers constantly over the levers the throttle is being held open with your thumb. Yes?

So from that position you are not able to close the throttle are you?

Yes you can release the throttle, the springs will close it? Yes that is true.

Have you noticed that most bikes today are fitted with two throttle cables? One opens, the other closes.

It is a lot quicker and far better practice to forcibly close the throttle, rather than rely on the spring.

So one reason for not covering the Throttle is it will actually take longer for you to apply the front brake if you have to move your hand to close the throttle first.

But that is not the only reason. I have already mentioned that it can and does lead to the brake light coming on. I have followed hundreds of learners. a give-away sign that they are covering their levers is that the brake light keeps coming on sometimes flickering. I have even seen people fail their tests because of it. MY ZRX1100 has 6 pot callipers on it. Thats 12 little pistons pushing on the disk when I pull on the lever. Is it not a reasonable expectation that at high speed the wind pressure on your fingers would be enough to apply some pressure to the lever?

Also not forgetting what is the most blinding point of all and touched on by somebody already - If you are not gripping the handlebars you are not in full control of the bike.

Ok - yes I have ridden no handedly. Will continue to do so as well. Not saying I am perfect, but if we are talking motorcycle theory here - I lost my front top row of teeth falling off a pushbike when I was 13 - due to riding without holding on (had just raced a bus and won as well). If you are covering the levers - your not holding on.

Hope that helps.

Totally disagree. I always cover the front brake with the tips of 2 fingers in heavy traffic and can close the throttle and apply the brake at the same time. The lever simply moves from the tips of my fingers to the middle of my fingers as I close the throttle and apply the brake. The time taken for me to reach for the brake lever when a car in front suddenly stops in front of me would almost certainly have caused me to crash many times. Can't imagine closing the throttle and reaching for the lever at the same time as my wrist is moving forward and my fingers are heading towards the ground - much easier if I am covering it and feel it on my fingertips.

I don't care if my brake light comes on, it might make the guy behind me back off a bit.

Not being rude as I haven't read your previous posts, but do you live and ride in Thailand? Riding in Bangkok rush hour with all four fingers wrapped around the throttle sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me.

[macknife]

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

[Shurup]

Carol:

The materials that you reference don't back you up; they contradict you, e.g.,

"So let's put all this together. How do you stop in the shortest possible distance? You use both brakes. You use progressively increasing pressure on the front brake, to use the increasing traction at the front as the weight shifts forward. You use light pressure on the rear brake; there isn't much traction back there because so much of the weight has shifted forward, but there's some, so use it. You squeeze the clutch and you tap on the shifter, without counting the taps, until your left foot has to go down just before you stop. "

"But I didn't say anything about it in my emergency braking discussion because it isn't effective. Consider that engine braking works on the rear wheel. If you want more braking from the rear wheel, then just press on the rear brake pedal a little more."

Please try to read with more comprehension darlin'.

Exactly what I was saying!

I looked at some youtube videos and it looks like different countries have different rules. Videos from UK (which are very hard to understand due to their strong British accent) suggest exactly that Carol was saying earlier - forget about the clutch, engine breaking, bla bla bla. US (Canadian??) videos advise on the breaking technique that I was describing - that I was taught at the bike school. Clutch in and start clicking on the shifter and don't worry about how many clicks.

[dave_boo]

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I have to.

Size 49 shoes means I have no choice.

[Carol Jadzia]

It's not a reasonable expectation that high speed wind will apply some pressure to the lever on my bike...but I have barkbusters...

In which case I apologise for stereotyping you. However some rules still apply.

[dave_boo]

It's not a reasonable expectation that high speed wind will apply some pressure to the lever on my bike...but I have barkbusters...

In which case I apologise for stereotyping you. However some rules still apply.

It's ok...I like to be obstinate....

Of course I rarely travel at speeds that are probably high enough to do that either....

**edit**

Corrected grammar and added below question.

Ms. Jadzia, what do you say about the fact that using engine braking could cause the rear tyre to start slipping; and if it were to happen mid turn upon regaining traction result in a high side? A serious question.

Edited February 16, 2015 by dave_boo

[macknife]

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I have to.

Size 49 shoes means I have no choice.

Why should that matter?

I mean do people ride with the front part of their foot on the pegs(resulting in no covering of the rear brake) or do people ride with their instep resting on the footpeg? (resulting in the front part of the foot covering or resting on the rear brake pedal)

[dave_boo]

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I have to.

Size 49 shoes means I have no choice.

Why should that matter?

I mean do people ride with the front part of their foot on the pegs(resulting in no covering of the rear brake) or do people ride with their instep resting on the footpeg? (resulting in the front part of the foot covering or resting on the rear brake pedal)

Lately all my riding has been 2 up. Thus I really can't ride on the ball of my feet as her feet are in the way. She can't really move back because of the panniers. Thus my feet are locked into the position that has the peg about 2/3 the way back. When solo I vary up the foot position to relieve leg cramps.

Note that I don't rest the foot on the brake lever, but it just hovers. Sometimes I can situate myself just right to actually catch the pivot of the lever where I can rest my foot.

[andreandre]

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

Not many that i've noticed, but certain bikes have footrest/ brakepedal positioning where this happens naturally..

[andreandre]

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

Sorry I missed this original question. I am also currently involved in saving a pier in England and I have been distracted by some very aggressive online spammers.

Sorry if I came over a little aggressive in my recent posts as well.

It is very hard to explain why you should not ride covering the levers without demonstrating it as that is what I have spent half my life doing

A dyslexic trying to explain something only in words is almost an oxymoron

When you go for the brakes in an emergency stop what do you need to do first?

Close the throttle.

If you are riding with your fingers constantly over the levers the throttle is being held open with your thumb. Yes?

So from that position you are not able to close the throttle are you?

Yes you can release the throttle, the springs will close it? Yes that is true.

Have you noticed that most bikes today are fitted with two throttle cables? One opens, the other closes.

It is a lot quicker and far better practice to forcibly close the throttle, rather than rely on the spring.

So one reason for not covering the Throttle is it will actually take longer for you to apply the front brake if you have to move your hand to close the throttle first.

But that is not the only reason. I have already mentioned that it can and does lead to the brake light coming on. I have followed hundreds of learners. a give-away sign that they are covering their levers is that the brake light keeps coming on sometimes flickering. I have even seen people fail their tests because of it. MY ZRX1100 has 6 pot callipers on it. Thats 12 little pistons pushing on the disk when I pull on the lever. Is it not a reasonable expectation that at high speed the wind pressure on your fingers would be enough to apply some pressure to the lever?

Also not forgetting what is the most blinding point of all and touched on by somebody already - If you are not gripping the handlebars you are not in full control of the bike.

Ok - yes I have ridden no handedly. Will continue to do so as well. Not saying I am perfect, but if we are talking motorcycle theory here - I lost my front top row of teeth falling off a pushbike when I was 13 - due to riding without holding on (had just raced a bus and won as well). If you are covering the levers - your not holding on.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for trying to answer Carol..it appears tho' , as another poster noted, that different parts of the world have different ideas....this helps explain things a bit...No need to appologise for aggressiveness..its common here ..Funny thing tho'..you mentioned riding no hands....i also can do and do do at times, but when i posted about it all hell broke loose..you could hear the howls of derision from many posters all over the country....either your turn is coming or it was a special just for me...funny reaction all the same!

But i digress..back to this braking issue. I can see what you are saying re covering brakes and throttle closing etc,and can partially agree ,but only in the case of using 4 fingers....in my case only 2 fingers, so have full braking abilities and full throttle control..ie 2 fingers and thumb controlling it....so must disagree about taking longer to apply the brake.... As for not having full control of the bike also, that i also disagree with [in my case at least] I can understand a smaller ,weaker person having some difficulty but i am not in that catagory by a long shot. In 700,000 k's i've never, ever not had absolute full control of my bike due to my hand placement technique...We can agree to disagree on some issues.....different strokes for different folks huh.... If my technique didn't work for me, i would either not be here now, or would have changed it way back..

There has to be a set of guidelines in any training programe for sure, but i think that in certain cases and different rider abilities one can fine tune methods to suit ones own preferences,after and if it works, well and good..only experience can tell......i've done mine with bum-on-seat experience, not as in some posters who believe that if they watch enough videos they can do the same...

Enjoy your riding..

[papa al]

The footbrake pedal was a couple cm lower than the resting position of my right foot on the peg so covering required uncomfortable dorsiflexion until I had my mechanics remove it, bend it in a press, and reinstall.

Now it is comfortable to cover.

There are small animals alive today that would be dead but for brake covering.

Like that other old guy, I ride with 2 fingers on lever and can shut down throttle and simultaneously brake, quickly, very quickly.

Despite 'expert' analysis to the contrary.

No lie.

Edited February 16, 2015 by papa al

[BKKBike09]

I'm an habitual two fingers covering front brake guy pretty much anywhere other than droning along on a highway. Is it less safe / slower to stop than no fingers to full four in an emergency? Honestly I've no idea but I do think there's a good case for arguing that, on many modern high performance bikes without ABS, it's easier to overbrake with four fingers than two and lock up the front.

Last Sunday some prick in a Suzuki Swift came off the expressway at Klong Tan and decided he wanted to get on the flyover over Klong Tan going towards Asoke. He didn't look and cut basically perpendicularly straight across four lanes to do it. Luckily I wasn't going too fast (50) but it was a full on emergency braking situation that had my rear tyre skipping along nicely with two fingers on the front lever. After I stopped I used the two fingers to express my displeasure to the <deleted>. In fact I was so riled that I went after him intending to have a friendly word. After driving behind the guy for a couple of km it became clear he had no idea I was right behind him all the way, most likely because he was balancing an Ipad on the steering wheel. He had Chonburi plates so I assume he was just blindly following a GPS map. I'd calmed down a bit by then and I was near home so I let it go.

Moral of the story: four fingers / two fingers, who cares as long as you use a technique that works best on your bike and you can actually stop quickly when you really have to.

[papa al]

But, but, but...

In UK they teach otherwise.

Allegedly.

You must be wrong.

[andreandre]

I'm an habitual two fingers covering front brake guy pretty much anywhere other than droning along on a highway. Is it less safe / slower to stop than no fingers to full four in an emergency? Honestly I've no idea but I do think there's a good case for arguing that, on many modern high performance bikes without ABS, it's easier to overbrake with four fingers than two and lock up the front.

Last Sunday some prick in a Suzuki Swift came off the expressway at Klong Tan and decided he wanted to get on the flyover over Klong Tan going towards Asoke. He didn't look and cut basically perpendicularly straight across four lanes to do it. Luckily I wasn't going too fast (50) but it was a full on emergency braking situation that had my rear tyre skipping along nicely with two fingers on the front lever. After I stopped I used the two fingers to express my displeasure to the <deleted>. In fact I was so riled that I went after him intending to have a friendly word. After driving behind the guy for a couple of km it became clear he had no idea I was right behind him all the way, most likely because he was balancing an Ipad on the steering wheel. He had Chonburi plates so I assume he was just blindly following a GPS map. I'd calmed down a bit by then and I was near home so I let it go.

Moral of the story: four fingers / two fingers, who cares as long as you use a technique that works best on your bike and you can actually stop quickly when you really have to.

"Moral of the story: four fingers / two fingers, who cares as long as you use a technique that works best on your bike and you can actually stop quickly when you really have to."

Yes..because what may be easy/comfortable for some may not be so for others...a lot of my riding associates simply cannot/willnot ride two finger brake ready because it doesn't feel right..some ride 4 finger,others just simply don't cover brakes..up to them.. as for E braking involving ,as i do both hands and both feet are all working simultaneously ..it turns out that a large number of males just cannot do this..its apparently only a guy thing to do with not having so good multi tasking abilities...[ladies, no doubt will agree on this ]

What ever method..all you can do is be as good as you possibly can by constant practice and refining techniques..if you are doing it in your comfort zone so its an automatic reflex, you have to be better off than trying to do something that is not in the "zone"...

[ll2]

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

[andreandre]

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

[JonnyF]

2 fingers on the lever is enough for me to cause ABS to engage and raise the rear wheel.

No need for more than that. Riding in BKK filtering through traffic a bike's length behind the bike in front (not "textbook" stuff but necessary) would be dangerous without covering the front brake IMO. The time taken to reach for the brake would be too long in the all too frequent event of someone in front of you stopping suddenly.

But each to their own. What you do to pass a test and what you do in real world situations is quite different, like having to hold the steering wheel at "10 to 2" and feed the wheel through your hands in a UK car test. Totally impractical and no-one does it once they've passed.

[seedy]

like having to hold the steering wheel at "10 to 2"

As an aside - now with air bags prevalent, they say hold at 9 and 3. This way if the bag deploys, it does not drive your forearms into your face.

[andreandre]

2 fingers on the lever is enough for me to cause ABS to engage and raise the rear wheel.

No need for more than that. Riding in BKK filtering through traffic a bike's length behind the bike in front (not "textbook" stuff but necessary) would be dangerous without covering the front brake IMO. The time taken to reach for the brake would be too long in the all too frequent event of someone in front of you stopping suddenly.

But each to their own. What you do to pass a test and what you do in real world situations is quite different, like having to hold the steering wheel at "10 to 2" and feed the wheel through your hands in a UK car test. Totally impractical and no-one does it once they've passed.

I'm not really up on ABS but i thought that stoppies would not be possible by virtue of how ABS works.....I'm up being informed tho"..

[JonnyF]

2 fingers on the lever is enough for me to cause ABS to engage and raise the rear wheel.

No need for more than that. Riding in BKK filtering through traffic a bike's length behind the bike in front (not "textbook" stuff but necessary) would be dangerous without covering the front brake IMO. The time taken to reach for the brake would be too long in the all too frequent event of someone in front of you stopping suddenly.

But each to their own. What you do to pass a test and what you do in real world situations is quite different, like having to hold the steering wheel at "10 to 2" and feed the wheel through your hands in a UK car test. Totally impractical and no-one does it once they've passed.

I'm not really up on ABS but i thought that stoppies would not be possible by virtue of how ABS works.....I'm up being informed tho"..

ABS alone won't prevent it. If anything it makes it more likely for the average rider IMO as it allows you to brake much harder without locking up the front. In the past, average riders would either lock up the front end due to too much brake or conversely be too afraid to brake as hard as the bike could handle. Now you can grab a handful and just stop. But it does mean the rear will lift occasionally.

Some bikes like the new S1000RR have anti stoppie which detects when the rear wheel lifts off the ground and makes adjustments based on that, but most bikes don't have that.

[Shurup]

^ This is probably a traction control function working in conjunction with ABS and yes, most ABS bikes don't have it.