UK visa "genuine and subsisting relationship" questions

[fbf]

When applying for my fiancée to come and live with me in the UK (after marriage), I'm aware that we need to prove we are in a "genuine and subsisting relationship".

Although the guidance points out that it's not a checklist, I guess a couple need to at least approximately meet some of the criteria.

"The couple are in a current, long-term relationship and are able to provide satisfactory evidence of this."

Has anyone had experience of how long "long-term" needs to be? I guess a spur-of-the-moment marriage after meeting someone on holiday and marrying the same week won't go down well. But how about 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? (It will be c.15 months for us).

"The couple share financial responsibilities, e.g. a joint mortgage/tenancy agreement, a joint bank account and/or joint savings, utility bills in both their names."

I'm just wondering, how could that apply to a couple who don't yet live together, because they need to get a visa granted before they can live together, and they need to live together before they can get things like a shared bank account. Is this only applicable where the couple live together overseas and want to move to the UK?

"The couple, [...], have made definite plans concerning the practicalities of the couple living together in the UK. [...]"

I've removed a lot of text relating arranged marriage.

What are "definite plans"? Is it enough to say that she intends to live with me, and prove that I am the current, sole owner and occupier of a 3 bedroom house? If so, how would I prove that only I live here anyway?

When they mention practicalities, does that mean quotes for things like a flight, shipping her belongings overseas? Or more like plans to find work? Is it safe for her to undertake job-seeking activity but without actually taking a job?

[TCA]

I think (my thoughts only) that being married removes a lot of the burden of proving the "genuine and subsisting" relationship, although you'd be better including everything you can. Such as proof of your visits to Thailand, flight tickets, photos etc...Phone bills demonstrating texts and calls, Skype records and that sort of thing is good. Gifts or money sent to Thailand. Anything that's relevant really.

Obviously there'll be little in the way of shared financial stuff if you've never lived together - that applies more to FLR and ILR applicants.

Demonstrating you own your own house is required if that's where you'll both live. Title deeds and maybe a few bills. Your council tax bill will show if you are the sole occupant.

[fbf]

Thanks for the reassurance. We've done two visit visas now and got into the rhythm of collecting photos, Skype screenshots and flight/hotel bookings to use as evidence of the relationship. So for the settlement visa I guess that's a starting point at least, along with proof of the marriage (legal registered marriage but also the ceremony in Thailand which won't be huge, but 50+ guests).

I never thought about the sending money side. I've been sending her money every month through Western Union - nothing big, usually around 10,000 Baht but a little more when she's needed to take unpaid leave to come on holiday or visit me. So the evidence of this would support the application? How about in the coming months when big chunks of money start going across to pay for the wedding costs, will that look good, bad or neutral?

I also notice in the guidelines they don't like money to be paid in respect to a marriage, except for a dowry. So 200,000 Baht flying across the world won't be an issue? I guess if she was paying me money, that's when they would sit up and take notice!

[durhamboy]

FBF - I would think that from what you have listed above you should have no problem with this aspect of your wife/fiancee's visa application.

Actually this is the one area that the ECOs at the Embassy do not seem to test as rigorously as in previous years. Interviews at the embassy are very rare nowadays whereas in the past pretty much everyone was interviewed.

They have introduced so many other hoops into the process that it has become a "tick box" exercise from documents submitted.

All wrong in my opinion. Personally I think that the only thing that should be tested is the genuineness of the relationship and more attention should be paid to this by the embassy instead of less.

Good luck!

[7by7]

As you say in your OP, the guidance is not a check list; it is list of suggestions. Some of which will be appropriate to you, some wont be.

Include evidence of:-

• Your visits to her, for example copies of the relevant pages of your passport showing entries to and exits from Thailand.
• Contact between you; phone bills, emails etc.. If you don't have such, explain why. For example, "We speak via Skype and I do not have the records." or "I phone her via a low cost access number, and it is that number which appears on my phone bill.
• Evidence of any monies you have sent her; including a note of what that money is for; especially large amounts.

Strictly speaking, the only legal requirement is that you need to show you

• are legally married (if applying as a spouse) and
• you have met.

The rest is a hangover from the days of the primary purpose rule. This put the onus on applicant and sponsor to prove that they had not entered into the marriage in order to obtain UK residence for the applicant. Obviously this was difficult to do as applicant and sponsor had to prove a negative and many genuine couples were refused under it. The rule was scrapped in 1997.

[Chivas]

The rest is a hangover from the days of the primary purpose rule. This put the onus on applicant and sponsor to prove that they had not entered into the marriage in order to obtain UK residence for the applicant. Obviously this was difficult to do as applicant and sponsor had to prove a negative and many genuine couples were refused under it. The rule was scrapped in 1997.

What was scrapped in 1997.....??

[7by7]

The answer is in the first sentence of that paragraph; the primary purpose rule.

[Chivas]

The answer is in the first sentence of that paragraph; the primary purpose rule.

Which is what....?? Means nothing to me.....

[7by7]

I'm sorry, but what is it you don't understand about "This (the primary purpose rule) put the onus on applicant and sponsor to prove that they had not entered into the marriage in order to obtain UK residence for the applicant." ?

[fbf]

I just spent 20 minutes replying and then the 'More reply options' led to a page with no content; going back the post text was lost. Incidentally, if you see almost all my posts are edited, that's why - safer to post it and then fix any typos.

Anyway I'll sum up in much fewer words (maybe a good thing!)

Firstly, thanks to durhamboy and 7by7 for the detailed answers.

About the interview - I don't mind if they need to interview her or both of us. If they interview me, can this take place in the UK? As I'll be living back in here in the UK while she waits for the application to be processed. If needed I could travel to Bangkok at short notice, but probably only for a long weekend so would there be enough flexibility to push for a Friday/Monday appointment?

About the documentation - I should have no problem with Skype records and explaining transactions (e.g. if I send an extra 50000 Baht, I could show receipts/contracts for the wedding band, for flowers etc.) How about the sin sod though? There is no contract with her parents (!) so there will be a big transaction, and a plate of money like this: http://bit.ly/1KWgNIZ. Will she and her parents need to pose in a photo with the money to prove that it wasn't downloaded from Google images?!

[7by7]

The likelihood of her having a face to face interview is extremely slim; you've more chance of winning the lottery!

They may phone her for a short interview, but again unlikely.

If they do, as long as what she says matches what is said in the application there is nothing to worry about; and as long as everything in the application is the truth, which I assume it will be, then what she says will match.

I have never heard of the sponsor being interviewed; but if they do want to speak with you then again it will almost certainly be by telephone.

As for the money you have sent; there is no need to go to the lengths you suggest.

By evidence of monies sent I mean paperwork such as Western Union or similar receipts, bank statements if an inter bank transfer etc. to show that the money has indeed been sent, not evidence of what the money was for.

A simple note in your covering letter to say what it is for is more than sufficient to cover the purpose of sending the money; the ECOs know Thailand, they know what sin sod is.

BTW, when my wife applied 15 years ago it was routine to interview settlement applicants face to face. Apart from the standard identification questions she was asked just one other.

"What are his parents names?"

She replied "I don't know; he calls them Mum and Dad!"

[fbf]

LOL! That's a brilliant answer and very truthful, I hope she still got the visa ok.

I'll take your advice and go easy on the documentation then, as there's already going to be a lot of evidence to wade through.

[7by7]

She did.

As for the paperwork; whilst I believe in ensuring you have covered everything, you do need to remember that the ECO does not have a lot of time in which to assess the application and reach a decision.

Therefore you do not want to submit too much unnecessary paperwork as while the ECO is wading through this they could easily miss something vital.

[bobrussell]

The answer is in the first sentence of that paragraph; the primary purpose rule.

Which is what....?? Means nothing to me.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/news/06/0605/straw.shtml

Home Secretary Jack Straw said it was being ended because "it is arbitrary, unfair and ineffective and has penalised genuine cases, divided families and unnecessarily increased the administrative burden on the immigration system."

What a shame that there has been an almost full reversal of this stance so things are now all too often arbitrary, unfair and ineffective. Families are being divided but perhaps the administrative burden has been reduced a tiny amount!

Edited February 16, 2015 by bobrussell