If You Are A Teacher...

[Sunbelt Asia]

Were aware of two “alphabet” schools that were recently raided. The foreign teachers that were working without a work permit were arrested and taken to the Immigration police station. They were released after several hours with a stamp of the Immigration Department and the date. A handwritten note underneath the stamp stated that they were caught working without a work permit. Were not aware of anyone being deported but of course a “fine” had to be paid by the schools. The problem lies in the teacher now wanting to get legal and the labor dept per regulations will not issue a work permit from one year from this stamp in the passport.

If you were hesitate of getting legal in the past, this is a warning call to put pressure on the employer to get you legal NOW!!!! Rather than after the fact.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks for the report. A raid is exactly what I've always feared, but neither school wanted to give me a WP, and I was almost the only farang in town, so a raid never happened.

I think if I'm interviewed for a teacher's job, and actually want it (part-time), I'll ask them to get me the work permit BEFORE I start work. That should make them not hire me, eh?

[sriracha john]

From this evening's news - according to education chief Khunying Kasama Varawarn na Ayutthaya, permanent secretary of education there is to be an immediate clampdown on the 7,000 foreign English teachers working at Bi-lingual/International schools in Bangkok.

If this is verifiable... this is GIGANTIC news... there's dozens of threads in the Teaching in Thailand forum that should be updated with this news. It's only fair to give a "heads up" as it's been standard practice for a long time to issue responses such as "don't worry too much about work permits" or "don't worry about having a degree", etc. to queries about "how do I go about this and that." Otherwise, people are setting themselves up for a big surprise when the latest and greatest crackdown occurs.

This sounds to be a BIG change from the status quo.

This has the potential to at least equal, if not surpass, the impact of the crackdown on the "mail my passport out of the country to get a visa" and the "send my passport to get stamped at the border without me" that occurred three years ago and resulted in fundamental changes in the manner in which many ex-pats live their lives in Thailand.

And that will leave the thousands and thousands more (surely more than the ones who have work permits- by a multiple of 3 or 4 or more, I'd imagine) who are completely illegal and unregulated:

completely untouched by this "crackdown."

Well, I guess this is just more job security for me, then.

Are there any official numbers on the number of work permits issued to teachers in BKK? I'd be surprised frankly if the number was anywhere near that high.

I think when they begin the actual "crackdown" they will find the percentage of teachers lacking in either degrees and/or work permits is quite high and if the authorities are serious about correcting the problem, it could spell trouble for many.

SO...the crackdown... it's begun...

it's taken longer than I expected.

Will the "work permit-less teacher" go by the wayside now, same as the "mail-my-passport-without-me-to-get-a-visa" traveller or the "use-the-fake-rubber-stamps" sojourner has?

Might be worth a cross-thread into Teaching in Thailand or General Forums, as well?

[PeaceBlondie]

We now have a thread, related to this, in Teaching forum.

[sriracha john]

That's good, PB...

I would think the widest dissemination of this information is needed.

[richard10365]

Were aware of two “alphabet” schools that were recently raided. The foreign teachers that were working without a work permit were arrested and taken to the Immigration police station. They were released after several hours with a stamp of the Immigration Department and the date. A handwritten note underneath the stamp stated that they were caught working without a work permit. Were not aware of anyone being deported but of course a “fine” had to be paid by the schools. The problem lies in the teacher now wanting to get legal and the labor dept per regulations will not issue a work permit from one year from this stamp in the passport.

If you were hesitate of getting legal in the past, this is a warning call to put pressure on the employer to get you legal NOW!!!! Rather than after the fact.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for the tip sunbelt. How can you help thoes teachers in need of a work permit?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Were aware of two “alphabet” schools that were recently raided. The foreign teachers that were working without a work permit were arrested and taken to the Immigration police station. They were released after several hours with a stamp of the Immigration Department and the date. A handwritten note underneath the stamp stated that they were caught working without a work permit. Were not aware of anyone being deported but of course a “fine” had to be paid by the schools. The problem lies in the teacher now wanting to get legal and the labor dept per regulations will not issue a work permit from one year from this stamp in the passport.

If you were hesitate of getting legal in the past, this is a warning call to put pressure on the employer to get you legal NOW!!!! Rather than after the fact.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for the tip sunbelt. How can you help thoes teachers in need of a work permit?

Most large language schools that apply for work permits, have staff that takes care of the work permit for them. Happy to help if any of their staff has a question.

If they have staff that never did a work permit before, then we should talk and we would be interested in getting hired to do it for the school.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[richard10365]

Were aware of two “alphabet” schools that were recently raided. The foreign teachers that were working without a work permit were arrested and taken to the Immigration police station. They were released after several hours with a stamp of the Immigration Department and the date. A handwritten note underneath the stamp stated that they were caught working without a work permit. Were not aware of anyone being deported but of course a “fine” had to be paid by the schools. The problem lies in the teacher now wanting to get legal and the labor dept per regulations will not issue a work permit from one year from this stamp in the passport.

If you were hesitate of getting legal in the past, this is a warning call to put pressure on the employer to get you legal NOW!!!! Rather than after the fact.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for the tip sunbelt. How can you help thoes teachers in need of a work permit?

Most large language schools that apply for work permits, have staff that takes care of the work permit for them. Happy to help if any of their staff has a question.

If they have staff that never did a work permit before, then we should talk and we would be interested in getting hired to do it for the school.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I'm sure you could help the qualified people very well. But what about thoes who are not qualified? What can you do for them? Since after all, this is what this is all about.

[Maestro]

what about thoes who are not qualified?

It seems that this crack-down affects only private schools. Perhaps the unqualified teachers find employment in government schools, or take a job in another field in Thailand or elsewhere.

Will this crack-down drive up the salary of (qualified) teachers at private schools?

--------------

Maestro

[Laulen]

So, it is the end then, of the English teacher who is qualified to teach English, (Cambridge and Trinity Certificate and/or Diploma) but yet lacks a degree certificate?

Whatever happened to so-called 'Expert' Work Permits?

As I understand it, the Immigration Department happily issue Work Permits to anyone who applies; it is the Education Ministry who INSIST on a person having a degree qualification, before they give them a 'licence' to teach in Thailand.

Could Sunbeltasia advise here?

Thanks

Laulen

[Jockstar]

having a degree qualification

Then does that make them a better teacher than someone with out a degree?

PS this is not an attack on laulen. I just used his quote.

[bazmlb]

having a degree qualification

Then does that make them a better teacher than someone with out a degree?

PS this is not an attack on laulen. I just used his quote.

Does this answer that Question?

''Results of the curriculum evaluation at those schools found the students lacked creative thinking and displayed no thirst for knowledge,'' Mr Somwang said.

"Most of the schools also lacked quality teachers. Although 91% of the teachers hold at least a bachelor's degree, their teaching skills are poor, he said."

Bangkok Post Article

[rishi]

... As I understand it, the Immigration Department happily issue Work Permits to anyone who applies; it is the Education Ministry who INSIST on a person having a degree qualification, before they give them a 'licence' to teach in Thailand...

Immigration department doesn't issue work permits - Labor Department does. And it isn't something just handed out to anyone who applies. It doesn't even suffice if the teacher himself fulfills the requirements for the employee - also the school must fulfill the requirements to the employer. I could imagine a lot of private schools, hiring foreign teachers, doesn't fulfill these reqiuirements --- consequently, many schools, now illegally hiring foreigners, would never be able to provide work permits.

[cwilliam]

Thanks for the report. A raid is exactly what I've always feared, but neither school wanted to give me a WP, and I was almost the only farang in town, so a raid never happened.

I think if I'm interviewed for a teacher's job, and actually want it (part-time), I'll ask them to get me the work permit BEFORE I start work. That should make them not hire me, eh?

Get rid of the "dead beats"Most are up to no good.

[PeaceBlondie]

While I agree cwilliam's comment was bad, let's all try to keep it civil.

Also, I understand that private schools can only get one work permit for every classroom they have. There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang. It depends on the willingness of school administrators, and the local labour officials. It's not easy at all, even for well qualified people.

We can't discuss the licensing and work permit problems without addressing qualifications. One suggestion by our own kenkaniff was that there be tiers of qualified levels. My version of the tiers would go something like this:

a. B.Ed. majoring in education, plus lots of courses in the special area to be taught.

b. A bachelor's degree without an education major; hopefully with a classroom TEFL course over 100 hours of lessons, and enough supervised practice teaching.

c. No degree; a good TEFL course, and qualifying experience.

But never mind; mai bpen rai. We're farang; the solutions have to come from the Thai authorities, and I hope they might listen to us. However, I doubt they'd take our suggestions very seriously.

[sriracha john]

you're probably right, PB, they wouldn't...

good proposal, btw, but I would worry about the number of foreigners in the teaching profession that fall into "qualification levels" d. through g.

[Sunbelt Asia]

I'm sure you could help the qualified people very well. But what about thoes who are not qualified? What can you do for them? Since after all, this is what this is all about.

Wish we could be of more help. If someone is not qualified, I'm sorry we cannot help until they do qualified. The only solution is for that person, is to get qualified to be a teacher in Thailand.

As I understand it, the Immigration Department happily issue Work Permits to anyone who applies; it is the Education Ministry who INSIST on a person having a degree qualification, before they give them a 'licence' to teach in Thailand.

The Labor Dept does not require a degree to get a work permit unless it is a teacher.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Khutan]

....There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang......

There is. I think its 7/1. There is also an upper limit of work permits per company. From memory its 250. That means the Thai Company would need about 2000 employees for the limit to be reached.

I was speaking to a friend recently who works up-country. He has a W/P with no degree, but the school put a case forward of the years of teaching etc and professional experience and he was granted the WP a few years ago. He said that the sceool went to the MOL as he is the only English Teacher there and he does not have a problem getting his W/P renewed.

I think particularly for up-country scshools necessity will allow discresion in the granting of the WP's

[Sunbelt Asia]

There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang......

There is. I think its 7/1. There is also an upper limit of work permits per company. From memory its 250. That means the Thai Company would need about 2000 employees for the limit to be reached.

The Thai company does not need any ratio of Thai employees to obtain a work permit for the foreigner. The only ratio involved is 4 Thai employees per foreigner if you applying for the extension of stay based on business.

Unless, the company is BOI or employs more than 100 Thai employees, the maximum number of foreigners is ten per Thai company.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[wilko]

Is it not true that almost ALL teachers working outside their school are in breach of their work permit anyway?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Is it not true that almost ALL teachers working outside their school are in breach of their work permit anyway?

Yes unless in the work permit states they can work anywhere in the province or city and surrounding area.

Most work permits state you can only work at one location. This can be changed to province or city and surrounding area. However this is a extra application required after you have gotten the work permit.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[samran]

There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang......

There is. I think its 7/1. There is also an upper limit of work permits per company. From memory its 250. That means the Thai Company would need about 2000 employees for the limit to be reached.

The Thai company does not need any ratio of Thai employees to obtain a work permit for the foreigner. The only ratio involved is 4 Thai employees per foreigner if you applying for the extension of stay based on business.

Unless, the company is BOI or employs more than 100 Thai employees, the maximum number of foreigners is ten per Thai company.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Just a bit of clarification Sunbelt,

So for instance, if my wife who's extensions are based on being married to me (thai national) decides to go work somewhere, she should be able to get a work permit quite easily given that the company doesn't face the minimum 1:4 ratio? And that the life of the work permit she does get will match the life of the non-o visa that she has, in which case has been extended for a year?

[Gumballl]

While I agree cwilliam's comment was bad, let's all try to keep it civil.

Also, I understand that private schools can only get one work permit for every classroom they have. There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang. It depends on the willingness of school administrators, and the local labour officials. It's not easy at all, even for well qualified people.

We can't discuss the licensing and work permit problems without addressing qualifications. One suggestion by our own kenkaniff was that there be tiers of qualified levels. My version of the tiers would go something like this:

a. B.Ed. majoring in education, plus lots of courses in the special area to be taught.

b. A bachelor's degree without an education major; hopefully with a classroom TEFL course over 100 hours of lessons, and enough supervised practice teaching.

c. No degree; a good TEFL course, and qualifying experience.

But never mind; mai bpen rai. We're farang; the solutions have to come from the Thai authorities, and I hope they might listen to us. However, I doubt they'd take our suggestions very seriously.

You forgot option d. Degree, and no TEFL, for those who want to teach in other disciplines, such as other languages, mathematics, the sciences, etc.

[bazmlb]

While I agree cwilliam's comment was bad, let's all try to keep it civil.

Also, I understand that private schools can only get one work permit for every classroom they have. There may also be a magic formula of so many Thai employees per farang. It depends on the willingness of school administrators, and the local labour officials. It's not easy at all, even for well qualified people.

We can't discuss the licensing and work permit problems without addressing qualifications. One suggestion by our own kenkaniff was that there be tiers of qualified levels. My version of the tiers would go something like this:

a. B.Ed. majoring in education, plus lots of courses in the special area to be taught.

b. A bachelor's degree without an education major; hopefully with a classroom TEFL course over 100 hours of lessons, and enough supervised practice teaching.

c. No degree; a good TEFL course, and qualifying experience.

But never mind; mai bpen rai. We're farang; the solutions have to come from the Thai authorities, and I hope they might listen to us. However, I doubt they'd take our suggestions very seriously.

You forgot option d. Degree, and no TEFL, for those who want to teach in other disciplines, such as other languages, mathematics, the sciences, etc.

I think it shouldnt be there as degrees outside ED degrees dont really teach you how to teach, which is why the TEFL is required as it gives a good intro to teaching methods.

[footfall]

I think a tier system is a good idea, too.

The requirements would have to vary according to the job. The training needed for kinder, primary,

secondary and adult (university or language schools) differs.

In Australia, a B.Ed is needed for primary teaching.

For secondary teaching you need a degree in the subject area/s you teach plus a one-year Dip.Ed.

(Primary teachers thus tend to have a better grasp of the learning process & psychology & classroom management than secondary teachers as they spend more time studying education subjects.)

For adult ESL/EFL you might have a degree plus one-year Dip.TESOL (though Masters degrees are becoming quite common) but there are quite a few possible variations as many teachers switch to TESOL after teaching primary or secondary.

Something like Japan's JET scheme would work well here. English-speakers who are not trained teachers but wish to spend a year here to experience the lifestyle and culture could get kids interested in and using oral English with a Thai teacher in the room to help manage the class.

[Queers for Fears]

Bout time, see something good did come out of the John Karr fiasco

Edited August 27, 2006 by Queers for Fears

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree with the tier scheme too. But it has been brought up before, and the main problem is not that it makes sense- the main problem is that if most teachers in Thailand who are currently illegal became legal and regulated, they would no longer be a viable way to launder money or exploit labour.

[paully]

^ Yes, that's the nub of it, Steven, in regard to private schools. This is also the reason why salaries for farang teachers in Thailand are highly unlikely to increase by very much in the forseeable future, more's the pity - less profits for rich owners.

Edited August 28, 2006 by paully

[Sunbelt Asia]

Just a bit of clarification Sunbelt,

So for instance, if my wife who's extensions are based on being married to me (thai national) decides to go work somewhere, she should be able to get a work permit quite easily given that the company doesn't face the minimum 1:4 ratio?

Correct. It should be easy for the work permit.

Where it may impact is for Immigration, not for her but inderectly on others. When they go for the extension, her work permit counts against the total of employees needed.

Example: The Company employs 9 Thai employees. They employ three foreigners with work permits. When one of the other foreigners goes for the renewal of the extension of stay, 12 employees will be needed for them in order to get the extension of stay based on business.

And that the life of the work permit she does get will match the life of the non-o visa that she has, in which case has been extended for a year?

Correct

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[samran]

Just a bit of clarification Sunbelt,

So for instance, if my wife who's extensions are based on being married to me (thai national) decides to go work somewhere, she should be able to get a work permit quite easily given that the company doesn't face the minimum 1:4 ratio?

Correct. It should be easy for the work permit.

Where it may impact is for Immigration, not for her but inderectly on others. When they go for the extension, her work permit counts against the total of employees needed.

Example: The Company employs 9 Thai employees. They employ three foreigners with work permits. When one of the other foreigners goes for the renewal of the extension of stay, 12 employees will be needed for them in order to get the extension of stay based on business.

Thanks sunbelt.

I would assume however, in my wifes case, her part time employer is going to be a big time international school (your NIST's and Pattana's of the world), then this shouldn't really be a problem at all from the immigration side? I am basing this on the belief that international schools don't face the same restrictions for WP's and extensions.