Thaivisa News Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 UPDATED: Two French tourists badly injured in Pattaya paragliding Pattaya, Chon Buri:- A French tourist and a Kazakh tourist were badly injured when a wind surge blew them up about 200 meters in the air while they were paragliding at the Jomthien Beach Wednesday afternoon. The two, who were using the same paraglider, ended up falling on the rooftop of the Marina Building of the Ambassador City Jomthien Hotel and they suffered severe cuts and several parts of their bones also appeared broken. The rooftop is equivalent to the 40th floor of the hotel. Police said the accident happened shortly before 4 pm. Security officers of the hotel called the Sawang Rojanatham Sathan Satahib Foundation at 4 pm to dispatch emergency teams to help the two tourists. The two tourists were identified as Narayan Keita, 28, who also works as a tour guide for French speeking tourists and Tatyana Fadeyeva, 14. Keita was rushed to the Queen Sirikit Hospital of the Royal Thai Navy while Fadeyeva was rushed to the Pattaya Memorial Hospital. Eyewitnesses told police that the two were not staying at the hotel but they came to the beach and rent the parglider. While they were about 200 meters away from the beach, there was a wind surge that lifted them about 200 meters in the air before they fell on the hotel buildings rooftop. Security officers carried them down to the ground before rescuers arrived. The rescuers performed the first aid and rushed them to the hospitals. It was initially reported that both were French and they were kite-surfling. Channel 3 later reported that they were paragliding. -- 2015-02-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emster23 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've got to pay more attention or something. Lived here in Jomtien around 8 years and don't recall ever seeing an Ambassador City hotel. Oh wait! Way down the road in Na Jomtien, na? They are either very unlucky or lucky didn't smash up against side of hotel. Add comments about lack of skill in boat, training (if any) of tourists.... usual blah blah, when are they going to blah blah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthai Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 EXTRA EXTRA STORY, maybe next time in Spain, Ibiza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The 40th floor of the hotel....... REALLY badly written article, who is Larry Banks (the author)? There is no way in the world a kite surfboard could be blown 40 stories high and they would have stayed on !!! So what happened to the incompetent idiot driving the boat? Was he licensed, insured, qualified in any way shape or form. I have para sailed and to get that height they had a hell of a lot of line out, and I do understand the unexpected can happen in nature but generally speaking, taking them out to sea (they should have had life jackets on) and gradually stopping the boat and reversing it slowly while reeling the line in, should have lowered them down eventually, given enough room. It is after all a parachute, landing anywhere over water should have been relatively safe. Did the line break (lack of maintenance)? Were they both riding the one chute (over weight)? This was just caused by shear incompetence, poor kids !!! There is a lot more to this than the impression given by the article, that´s for sure !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bino Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... None of the above. Let me help you with terminology. Kitesurfing is the latest rage, and maybe you just aren't "with it". The photo in the OP is conventional skydiving from an airplane with a parachute. The smaller "deployment chute" above the main chute is the telltale sign. Parasailing is being towed behind a boat - you got that right. Kitesurfing does not involve a surfboard with a sail attached. That is called windsurfing. Kitesurfing involves a parachute and surfboard. You are harnessed to the parachute while riding the surfboard. It looks like this: I believe that the description of the accident as kitesurfing is accurate. A massive wind gust would be disastrous in a rig like this. I can't see the winch on a parasailing boat easily spooling out forty stories of line due to a wind gust, and doubtful they have that much line on the winch in the first place. A competent or incompetent boat boat operator would have no effect here. Take your ranting and hating to somewhere where it is justified and appropriate. Horrific accident in any case, and I hope they make a speedy recovery. Edited February 18, 2015 by bino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiangraiTony Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 "Parts of their bones also appeared broken". "The rooftop is equivalent to the 40th floor of the hotel". "Security officers carried them down to the ground before rescuers arrived". My first thought was that it sounds heroic on the part of the Security Officers. I just hope that they didn't cause undue harm by making things worst for the two injured people. It sounds to me like there may have been a lot of blood loss with them having severe cuts. The decision to move them was obviously their call. Generally, basic CPR and First Aid training teaches not to move the injuried until rescuer personnel arrive. Unless of course, it becomes a matter of further injury or possible death such as with a buring fire, etc... This accident is terrible. It affects their lives as well as their families. Hope they can find strength to make it through this painful ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKnave Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The security guards carried them down fro the roof (massive injuries, broken bones, and all), before paramedics treated them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... None of the above. Let me help you with terminology. Kitesurfing is the latest rage, and maybe you just aren't "with it". The photo in the OP is conventional skydiving from an airplane with a parachute. The smaller "deployment chute" above the main chute is the telltale sign. Parasailing is being towed behind a boat - you got that right. Kitesurfing does not involve a surfboard with a sail attached. That is called windsurfing. Kitesurfing involves a parachute and surfboard. You are harnessed to the parachute while riding the surfboard. It looks like this: kitesurfing.jpeg I believe that the description of the accident as kitesurfing is accurate. A massive wind gust would be disastrous in a rig like this. I can't see the winch on a parasailing boat easily spooling out forty stories of line due to a wind gust, and doubtful they have that much line on the winch in the first place. A competent or incompetent boat boat operator would have no effect here. Take your ranting and hating to somewhere where it is justified and appropriate. Horrific accident in any case, and I hope they make a speedy recovery. So criticizing the poor reporting and asking questions for clarification (and thank you for that) to try to ascertain what happened is ranting and hating? Are there any safeguards with these things if this is possible? Surely there is at least some form of quick release? If the wind was that uncontrollable for whatever reason what are the chances (and lucky I guess they did) of them both landing on the same roof, 40 stories up? SORRY for the additional ranting and hating..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTee Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Sounds like a sophisticated cat burglary attempt to me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wat dee Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The 40th floor of the hotel....... REALLY badly written article, who is Larry Banks (the author)? There is no way in the world a kite surfboard could be blown 40 stories high and they would have stayed on !!! So what happened to the incompetent idiot driving the boat? Was he licensed, insured, qualified in any way shape or form. I have para sailed and to get that height they had a hell of a lot of line out, and I do understand the unexpected can happen in nature but generally speaking, taking them out to sea (they should have had life jackets on) and gradually stopping the boat and reversing it slowly while reeling the line in, should have lowered them down eventually, given enough room. It is after all a parachute, landing anywhere over water should have been relatively safe. Did the line break (lack of maintenance)? Were they both riding the one chute (over weight)? This was just caused by shear incompetence, poor kids !!! There is a lot more to this than the impression given by the article, that´s for sure !! I belief there's no boat involved. Ambassador has gale force winds every now and then so plausible . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deelectro Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It's is possible for kite surfers to be elevated to extreme heights with sudden gusts, but very rare, For it to be 2 kiters landing in the same spot on a roof, unlikely. Somehow I think it is more likely a para-motor. I did see one or more of them flying too close to the top of Ambassador last week. Kite-surfing kites do have releases, but it might be a tough decision to make as one is going up. Again, I'm pretty sure it's a para-motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacko45k Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... None of the above. Let me help you with terminology. Kitesurfing is the latest rage, and maybe you just aren't "with it". The photo in the OP is conventional skydiving from an airplane with a parachute. The smaller "deployment chute" above the main chute is the telltale sign. Parasailing is being towed behind a boat - you got that right. Kitesurfing does not involve a surfboard with a sail attached. That is called windsurfing. Kitesurfing involves a parachute and surfboard. You are harnessed to the parachute while riding the surfboard. It looks like this: kitesurfing.jpeg I believe that the description of the accident as kitesurfing is accurate. A massive wind gust would be disastrous in a rig like this. I can't see the winch on a parasailing boat easily spooling out forty stories of line due to a wind gust, and doubtful they have that much line on the winch in the first place. A competent or incompetent boat boat operator would have no effect here. Take your ranting and hating to somewhere where it is justified and appropriate. Horrific accident in any case, and I hope they make a speedy recovery. So is there a problem with letting go of the kite (picture shows it as hand-held) before being blown 200m up in the air, the height of a 40 storey building, or are you fastened to the kite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bino Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) So criticizing the poor reporting and asking questions for clarification (and thank you for that) to try to ascertain what happened is ranting and hating? Are there any safeguards with these things if this is possible? Surely there is at least some form of quick release? If the wind was that uncontrollable for whatever reason what are the chances (and lucky I guess they did) of them both landing on the same roof, 40 stories up? There are indeed two safety systems. Clipped from a kitesurfing website. There are two common kite safety features found on kiteboarding kites. Each serves its own purpose, and it is important to understand how they work and when to use them. These two features are: The Chicken Loop Quick Release – This quick release is the first safety feature of the kite, and when released, de-powers the kite. The Safety Leash Quick Release – The second and last safety feature on the kite is designed to detach the kite from the rider (when necessary). If you want more information, how they work etc. you can see the website here. What are the chances of landing on the same rooftop? Here is a plausible theory: the gale force winds that were blowing onshore would blow upward on the face of the building, and over the top of it. I hear your next rant coming on about poorly maintained equipment from the Thai rental operator and that they should not be in business. What are the chances of two safety systems failing on two sets of equipment? Plausible theory for that: the tourists were not experienced kitesurfers and properly trained about how to use them. Edited February 18, 2015 by bino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poweratradio Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... It is standing on a surf board with your feet in sleeves and a para sail over head pulling you and the surf board through the water. Why they didn't release is the big question here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 dangerous sport and dont think insurance covers it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 This was a freaky (and tragic) accident, but just like idiots on motor bikes, people have to be somewhat responsible for their own actions. One however was 14 years old!! Although I am basically against over regulation, there should be some onus / responsibility on the hirer (as their should be with hiring a super bike or a scooter to someone inexperienced / licensed). Until there is these tragedies will continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeforeTigers Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) It started as kite-surfing - which I have never seen done with two people.Then the original story features a photo of a skydiver - which is mislabeled as a kite surferNow it's a paraglider - which is attached to a boat. A boat that apparently had 300+ meters of line to let out uncontrollably.=\ Edited February 19, 2015 by BeforeTigers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 It's is possible for kite surfers to be elevated to extreme heights with sudden gusts, but very rare, For it to be 2 kiters landing in the same spot on a roof, unlikely. Somehow I think it is more likely a para-motor. I did see one or more of them flying too close to the top of Ambassador last week. Kite-surfing kites do have releases, but it might be a tough decision to make as one is going up. Again, I'm pretty sure it's a para-motor Agreed.. Kite Surfing very very rarely will lift people to much heights.. To lift them to 40 stories makes little sense.. It may be possible but your talking incredible odds for 'lift' to exist like that.. People get dragged along, rarely lifted to more than a few meters. Then to lift 2 of them both 40 stories and both land on the same roof, seems to be freakishly impossible. Yet the article clearly states they rented the equipment on the beach.. again that seems kind of odd, kite surfing isnt just something you have a go at, schools to exist but this isnt a tourist 1000b for 30 minutes activity. Paramotor.. Parasail.. I could possibly see it.. Kite surfing ?? Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Seems I was very wrong.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... None of the above. Let me help you with terminology. Kitesurfing is the latest rage, and maybe you just aren't "with it". The photo in the OP is conventional skydiving from an airplane with a parachute. The smaller "deployment chute" above the main chute is the telltale sign. Parasailing is being towed behind a boat - you got that right. Kitesurfing does not involve a surfboard with a sail attached. That is called windsurfing. Kitesurfing involves a parachute and surfboard. You are harnessed to the parachute while riding the surfboard. It looks like this: kitesurfing.jpeg I believe that the description of the accident as kitesurfing is accurate. A massive wind gust would be disastrous in a rig like this. I can't see the winch on a parasailing boat easily spooling out forty stories of line due to a wind gust, and doubtful they have that much line on the winch in the first place. A competent or incompetent boat boat operator would have no effect here. Take your ranting and hating to somewhere where it is justified and appropriate. Horrific accident in any case, and I hope they make a speedy recovery. So the "it" that you are so obviously "with" entitles you to make patronising and insulting remarks? Maybe YOU should take your attitude to somewhere it is justified and appropriate? Hope the unlucky couple get well soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooHaa Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... considering the words "kite surfing" do not appear in the OP, and the word "paragliding" appears on multiple occasions, you should be able to work it out on your own. although this page has a rather ironic (given this topic) description of the differences between parasailing and paragliding http://www.diffen.com/difference/Paragliding_vs_Parasailing The main difference between paragliding and parasailing is that parasailers are attached to a vehicle (usually a motor boat) that generates enough momentum and connects the parasailers to safety. Edited February 19, 2015 by HooHaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanno Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Seems I was very wrong.. I am not sure you were. I used to work in Phan Thiet in Vietnam which is huge in Kitesurfing circles. Some people got serious air but not one of them came close to 100 meters (which I am guessing is what a stories building would be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tham1 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 why are you all bitching about whether it was para sailing, kitesurfing - whatever. What a pathetic bunch of <deleted>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 UPDATED: Two French tourists badly injured in Pattaya paragliding Pattaya, Chon Buri:- A French tourist and a Kazakh tourist were badly injured when a wind surge blew them up about 200 meters in the air while they were paragliding at the Jomthien Beach Wednesday afternoon. The two, who were using the same paraglider, ended up falling on the rooftop of the Marina Building of the Ambassador City Jomthien Hotel and they suffered severe cuts and several parts of their bones also appeared broken. The rooftop is equivalent to the 40th floor of the hotel. Police said the accident happened shortly before 4 pm. Security officers of the hotel called the Sawang Rojanatham Sathan Satahib Foundation at 4 pm to dispatch emergency teams to help the two tourists. The two tourists were identified as Narayan Keita, 28, who also works as a tour guide for French speeking tourists and Tatyana Fadeyeva, 14. Keita was rushed to the Queen Sirikit Hospital of the Royal Thai Navy while Fadeyeva was rushed to the Pattaya Memorial Hospital. Eyewitnesses told police that the two were not staying at the hotel but they came to the beach and rent the parglider. While they were about 200 meters away from the beach, there was a wind surge that lifted them about 200 meters in the air before they fell on the hotel building’s rooftop. Security officers carried them down to the ground before rescuers arrived. The rescuers performed the first aid and rushed them to the hospitals. It was initially reported that both were French and they were kite-surfling. Channel 3 later reported that they were paragliding. So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... None of the above. Let me help you with terminology. Kitesurfing is the latest rage, and maybe you just aren't "with it". The photo in the OP is conventional skydiving from an airplane with a parachute. The smaller "deployment chute" above the main chute is the telltale sign. Parasailing is being towed behind a boat - you got that right. Kitesurfing does not involve a surfboard with a sail attached. That is called windsurfing. Kitesurfing involves a parachute and surfboard. You are harnessed to the parachute while riding the surfboard. It looks like this: kitesurfing.jpeg I believe that the description of the accident as kitesurfing is accurate. A massive wind gust would be disastrous in a rig like this. I can't see the winch on a parasailing boat easily spooling out forty stories of line due to a wind gust, and doubtful they have that much line on the winch in the first place. A competent or incompetent boat boat operator would have no effect here. Take your ranting and hating to somewhere where it is justified and appropriate. Horrific accident in any case, and I hope they make a speedy recovery. Well it seems that my original analysis was reasonable. So what would you like me to do with my rantings and hating now, or is it now justified and appropriate? As I stated earlier, there is more to this than first reported...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 So hang on, was this kite surfing or para sailing, the 2 are not the same. Kite surfing involves a (surf) board with a sail, para sailing is being towed behind a boat with a parachute (as in the picture on the OP). Are we to believe that a surfboard with a sail was lifted 200 metres in the air and landed on a roof? If that was possible then (small) yachts would surely be in the same predicament. Or were they being towed around by some incompetent boat driver who couldn´t control what was going on? This seems like a more likely scenario, which brings other things into question huh..... considering the words "kite surfing" do not appear in the OP, and the word "paragliding" appears on multiple occasions, you should be able to work it out on your own. although this page has a rather ironic (given this topic) description of the differences between parasailing and paragliding http://www.diffen.com/difference/Paragliding_vs_Parasailing The main difference between paragliding and parasailing is that parasailers are attached to a vehicle (usually a motor boat) that generates enough momentum and connects the parasailers to safety. I think you came in late, they changed the OP from the original, with the update. It was originally posted as kit surfing with a picture of someone parachuting labelled as kite surfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 why are you all bitching about whether it was para sailing, kitesurfing - whatever. What a pathetic bunch of <deleted>. The original article said it was Kite Surfing, not para sailing, which could explain the height. Maybe because there is a difference, which could easily be a contributing factor to the accident which almost killed 2 young tourists. Being towed around by a boat, 2 people on a rig (under rated), rope that is 10 years old, a winch which doesn´t function, a licensed operator, insurance, just a few things which spring to mind. 200 metres into the air, over a 40 story building....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LennyW Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) I am confused, what is all this talk about boats??? They were paragliding, ie: wing type parachute with an engine strapped to your back. I think? Edited February 19, 2015 by LennyW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigPig Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) In another article from Pattaya One : Second Pattaya ParaGlider Accident Involving Chinese Tourist. The last paragraph states: There were many witnesses to the incident and a large crowd had gathered as the tourist was rescued. We were told that a gust of wind caused the parachute to rise unexpectedly as Mr. Bai was descending onto the beach. The speed boat operator fled the scene and is now being sought by the authorities. There seems to be some confusion with correct terminologies with ParaSailing and ParaGliding. I am personally not onto it so I can understand that. The reporting (as usual) is more than vague, however it would be nice to know for sure if they were motor powered or being towed. My money is on later, but I hope we can find out for sure, and of course if they were being towed what has happened to the operator and his equipment. I am sure it was all tested, inspected and carried current certification, and operated by a licensed operator, if this is the case.... Short term tourists just don´t understand there are NO safety precautions here, they just assume it is the same as their own countries and don´t expect them to be available it they are not safe !!! See more at: http://www.pattayaone.net/pattaya-news/74761/pattaya-paraglider-accident-involving-chinese-tourist/#sthash.q4KxiGPZ.dpuf Edited because of problem with copy and paste. Edited February 19, 2015 by RigPig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deelectro Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I would say we are well within our rights to discuss which sport is which. If for nothing else than to defend that sport. The OP/ Article got it completely wrong, subsequently the abjectives began flying about the wrong sport. . TV is a forum for people to discuss and learn, In amongst the various posts there may be some illumination for you.We are waiting to find out further what happened, in the mean time it is fair to evaluate the various aspects of their endeavors. This is exactly what news programs do in these situations. It is terrible what happened to the two people, and I hope they recover fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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