Thai govt tells EC to fix responsibility for Feb 2 poll failure

[Gweiloman]

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Yes, I think you are right. YL should have called out the army to force the EC to deliver the ballots, and then used the army to prevent voters being prevented from attending the polling.

I believe the courts who were working with Suthep blocked her from calling a state of emergency and even trying to restore order.

Yes, but it is clear that YL failed in her duty to control and prevent the politicisation of the courts and the EC, and failed to give in to the demands of the Democrat party protesters in the street, who reasonably enough wanted the election prevented because they had decided they didn't want to participate. Truthfully, if they were not going to participate, what's the point of even having an election? So, in all of these YL was clearly derelict in her duty to the country, so so should be held responsible for any monetary losses incurred by Thailand due to the breakdown of democracy in the country.

your not serious are you. I despise the Shins but not being aligned to either side could clearly see that she was tied, gaged and blindfolded by Suthep, the courts and military.

Is it legal to sabotage an election in Thailand if it isn't, why isn't Suthep, the lunatic monk and those that supported his activities in jail. I guess some of his backers are now in the government that isn't recognised outside of Thailand.

I think In Town was saying this tongue in cheek.

[FangFerang]

Monkey-turned-Monk Suthep and the not quite Buddhist monk named after the Buddha are the only primary suspects in this case....but instead they will finger any EC officials aligned in any way with the reds.

[casualbiker]

Monkey-turned-Monk Suthep and the not quite Buddhist monk named after the Buddha are the only primary suspects in this case....but instead they will finger any EC officials aligned in any way with the reds.

There is blame on both sides BUT primarily I agree they were at fault!

[lildragon]

Wait? Seriously? I can't believe what I'm reading here

Call out Yingluck on her governments failings as much as you want, but she played everything by the book during the protests and was stifled by the conspirators at every turn, she will now no doubt get the blame for not properly organizing an election which was blocked at some places by 'peaceful' protesters and ballot boxes physically stolen. The security forces just standing by and watching it happen too, and now they want to blame someone for it (my money is on Yingluck)

Thai politics...never a dull day...

Edited February 20, 2015 by lildragon

[casualbiker]

Wait? Seriously? I can't believe what I'm reading here

Call out Yingluck on her governments failings as much as you want, but she played everything by the book during the protests and was stifled by the conspirators at every turn, she will now no doubt get the blame for not properly organizing an election which was blocked at some places by 'peaceful' protesters and ballot boxes physically stolen. The security forces just standing by and watching it happen too, and now they want to blame someone for it (my money is on Yingluck)

Thai politics...never a dull day...

The Police were entirely behind Yinglucks Shinawatra government. They are the law enforcement personnel responsible for every day security. The Shins didn't bother about the southern regions getting ballots because historically they don't vote for Shinawatra governments!

There was plenty of time to organise things by the Shinawatra government, just not the will!

[lildragon]

Wait? Seriously? I can't believe what I'm reading here

Call out Yingluck on her governments failings as much as you want, but she played everything by the book during the protests and was stifled by the conspirators at every turn, she will now no doubt get the blame for not properly organizing an election which was blocked at some places by 'peaceful' protesters and ballot boxes physically stolen. The security forces just standing by and watching it happen too, and now they want to blame someone for it (my money is on Yingluck)

Thai politics...never a dull day...

The Police were entirely behind Yinglucks Shinawatra government. They are the law enforcement personnel responsible for every day security. The Shins didn't bother about the southern regions getting ballots because historically they don't vote for Shinawatra governments!

There was plenty of time to organise things by the Shinawatra government, just not the will!

If the police failed then the army should of stepped in to ensure elections were held as per the constitution (which they wrote of course).

The EC were dilly dallying at every turn, they were far from impartial and were being half assed cos it suited their biased agenda.

[greenchair]

Largely to blame are Suthep and monk Issara. But the Yingluck government and EC are also to blame for not ensuring EVERY effort was made to get the election papers to the southern polling booths.

You poor deluded sole.

You obviously missed the information in the papers, that

Quite clearly said. "Why the election papers were not able to be sent to those places"?

[smedly]

The blame is with the PTP government when they tried to force an election at a time when it was obvious the majority of people Thai didn't want it without massive reforms first

For an election to take place all of the people must be willing to participate - this very obviously wasn't the case

[smutcakes]

The blame is with the PTP government when they tried to force an election at a time when it was obvious the majority of people Thai didn't want it without massive reforms first

For an election to take place all of the people must be willing to participate - this very obviously wasn't the case

To obvious, but you should still get some bites.

[Plowman]

The blame is with the PTP government when they tried to force an election at a time when it was obvious the majority of people Thai didn't want it without massive reforms first

For an election to take place all of the people must be willing to participate - this very obviously wasn't the case

To obvious, but you should still get some bites.

I think he's being genuine, such absurdities could only come from the mind of a true believer. A Junta lover more in love with the Junta than the Junta is in love with itself. Such delusion could only come not from one who merely sipped the Kool Aid, but from one who religiously chugs the stuff morning, noon and night. Bizarro land, roll out the welcoming matt, you have a new convert.

[toybits]

But wouldn't that bounce back right into their faces?

[casualbiker]

Largely to blame are Suthep and monk Issara. But the Yingluck government and EC are also to blame for not ensuring EVERY effort was made to get the election papers to the southern polling booths.

You poor deluded sole.

You obviously missed the information in the papers, that

Quite clearly said. "Why the election papers were not able to be sent to those places"

You poor red tinted glasses wearer.. they were blockaded for sure BUT the government didn't exactly try very hard to get then there.. they used the Thai post office for crying out loud. That was the limit to their trying!

[lildragon]

Largely to blame are Suthep and monk Issara. But the Yingluck government and EC are also to blame for not ensuring EVERY effort was made to get the election papers to the southern polling booths.

You poor deluded sole.

You obviously missed the information in the papers, that

Quite clearly said. "Why the election papers were not able to be sent to those places"

You poor red tinted glasses wearer.. they were blockaded for sure BUT the government didn't exactly try very hard to get then there.. they used the Thai post office for crying out loud. That was the limit to their trying!

Polling booths were physically blocked by thugs that intimidated anyone trying to exercise their right to vote yet the fault is with previous government here? Maybe you should take of the old yellow tinted specs if you're telling others to take off their red ones

[djjamie]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

Edited February 20, 2015 by djjamie

[Anon999]

These people are deluded! It's pretty obvious who was in the streets blockading the election shooting guns hidden in popcorn bags and who was sat in their barracks not doing a single thing and that the Electoral Commmission was clearly in cahoots with the plotters and which political party boycotted the election. We have truly crossed over into Alice in Wonderland territory here, where the leadership of a country can publicly spout such nonsense and nobody points out the obvious! Absurd beyond all belief.

You have been a busy boy since becoming a member of TVF yesterday. I do wonder exactly how much knowledge you have of the whole situation?

[casualbiker]

Largely to blame are Suthep and monk Issara. But the Yingluck government and EC are also to blame for not ensuring EVERY effort was made to get the election papers to the southern polling booths.

You poor deluded sole.

You obviously missed the information in the papers, that

Quite clearly said. "Why the election papers were not able to be sent to those places"

You poor red tinted glasses wearer.. they were blockaded for sure BUT the government didn't exactly try very hard to get then there.. they used the Thai post office for crying out loud. That was the limit to their trying!

Polling booths were physically blocked by thugs that intimidated anyone trying to exercise their right to vote yet the fault is with previous government here? Maybe you should take of the old yellow tinted specs if you're telling others to take off their red ones

Bangkok polling booths were blocked but in the south they weren't. Also is it not the government of the days responsibility to ensure ALL efforts are made for the election to take place!

[waitforusalso]

[Gunna]

These people are deluded! It's pretty obvious who was in the streets blockading the election shooting guns hidden in popcorn bags and who was sat in their barracks not doing a single thing and that the Electoral Commmission was clearly in cahoots with the plotters and which political party boycotted the election. We have truly crossed over into Alice in Wonderland territory here, where the leadership of a country can publicly spout such nonsense and nobody points out the obvious! Absurd beyond all belief.

YS was told not to hold an election on 02 Feb due to their not being enough candidates, and an election without candidates in some electorates would be judged invalid.

When she ignored the advice and went ahead it was always going to be invalid even if there were no demonstrations

I thought it was ruled invalid due to the voting not being completed in all areas on the same day? I did not know that it was ruled invalid due to there not being enough candidates.

yes when it went to court it was ruled invalid as you say

But beforehand she was warned several times not to go ahead

eg ABC News from 29 January 2013

"Yingluck was warned that the commission candidates have been unable to register in some constituencies, meaning there would not be a quorum to open parliament even if voting went ahead."

Yingluck went ahead with the election as she thought she could ignore Thailand's Law as she had done several times previously

[Baerboxer]

These people are deluded! It's pretty obvious who was in the streets blockading the election shooting guns hidden in popcorn bags and who was sat in their barracks not doing a single thing and that the Electoral Commmission was clearly in cahoots with the plotters and which political party boycotted the election. We have truly crossed over into Alice in Wonderland territory here, where the leadership of a country can publicly spout such nonsense and nobody points out the obvious! Absurd beyond all belief.

The police. Why do you think the army should have come out and do the job the police should do, have sworn to do and fail miserably to do?

And who, oddly enough was controlling the police at the time? And set up the very expensive and totally inept and ineffective CAPO?

[tbthailand]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

your post seems to be in complete agreement with this one...

[englishoak]

who ordered the police to stand down and do nothing to protect voters ? Who allowed the blocking of the electorate from legal entitlement to vote ? who refused to intervene and ignored their mandate to support a legitimate elected government and protect the people wishing to vote when asked ? who planned the debarcle with suthep and military coup in the making long before feb 2 election attempt ?

<snip>

Edited February 21, 2015 by Jai Dee
dangerous speculation removed

[djjamie]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

your post seems to be in complete agreement with this one...

Well you started with "The obvious answer is Yingluck"

I didn't. But if it suits your agenda I can pretend to say what you want me to say!

[rockingrobin]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

Total Rubbish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2014

The election was disrupted to deny the rightful owners of their democratic powers, namely the thai citizens

A PM and MPs only have power temporararily and it is the electorate who hold the ultimate authority

[djjamie]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

Total Rubbish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2014

The election was disrupted to deny the rightful owners of their democratic powers, namely the thai citizens

A PM and MPs only have power temporararily and it is the electorate who hold the ultimate authority

Wonderful and being the case then why did yingluck do nothing to ensue a successful election..

NOTHING?

And if you think she tried to make a successful election then tell me what see did to ensure it?

Dont belittle me, condescend me or abuse or attack me…Simply answer the question.

What did yingluck do to ensure a successful elation?

Edited February 20, 2015 by djjamie

[rockingrobin]

Yingluck is quite obviously to blame for this.

She was warned numerous times to delay the elections due to conflict and deaths at the pre polling booths, but she decided to continue stubbornly, irrespective of how many people would be killed. She didn't care how many people died.

She knew and wanted those polls to fail so she could blame the PDRC for the non payments of the rice scheme. If she didn't want the polls to fail she would have ordered soldiers to all polling booths in her capacity of Defense Minister to ensure they proceeded successfully. Never happened. Remember yingluck fanboys say she was the best leader Thailand had ever seen. So if that was the case this soldiers would be jumping…She didn't even order them out.

She wanted those polls to fail because she knew she would have lost. The results that were tabulated proved that. All polls post failed rice scheme proved that as well. Robert Amsterdam. the convicted criminal fugitive and the PTP advisors made their money that day.

yingluck was in the unique position of being the defense minister and PM and if she truly knew she would win that election she would use every tool she had to ensure peaceful polls. Yet that never happened. She did drive for elections, but not for peaceful ones. No soldiers in force defending polling stations and Chalerm on the other front suggesting he would dress up in a Groucho mask to arrest Suthep…That aint the sign of a government that wants polls to go ahead.

It is time wasting narratives to ensure it goes ahead and fails.

The sad thing is yingluck won't even be hear to face accountability. She will be in Dubai with her convicted criminal brother.

PS - Attack the post. Not the poster.

Total Rubbish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2014

The election was disrupted to deny the rightful owners of their democratic powers, namely the thai citizens

A PM and MPs only have power temporararily and it is the electorate who hold the ultimate authority

Wonderful and being the case then why did yingluck do nothing to ensue a successful election..

NOTHING?

And if you think she tried to make a successful election then tell me what see did to ensure it?

Dont belittle me, condescend me or abuse or attack me…Simply answer the question.

What did yingluck do to ensure a successful elation?

I cannot say if she did anything or nothing, unfortunately I am not privvy to private conversations that may or may not have taken pllace.

As a final note that is commonly overlooked , Yingluck asked permission to dissolve parliament and this was granted

[aussieinthailand]

SPIN THIS IF YA CAN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lots more where that came from. who ordered this? who's whistle blowing thugs are these? were the police ordered by the courts not to touch protesters as they are "PEACEFUL"? Who's to blame??? there's even a photo where a grandmother is attacked for wanting to vote, so much for the respect for the elders huh. and videos of people climbing locked gates because they wanted to vote and were prevented, c'mon you usual suspects spin it I dare you. we all know who is to blame but the person that will be held responsible is also selected in advance as usual.

[casualbiker]

SPIN THIS IF YA CAN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lots more where that came from. who ordered this? who's whistle blowing thugs are these? were the police ordered by the courts not to touch protesters as they are "PEACEFUL"? Who's to blame??? there's even a photo where a grandmother is attacked for wanting to vote, so much for the respect for the elders huh. and videos of people climbing locked gates because they wanted to vote and were prevented, c'mon you usual suspects spin it I dare you. we all know who is to blame but the person that will be held responsible is also selected in advance as usual.

There's no spin.. individual actions should have been sorted out by the police. The courts said no forced movement of the protestors. This is an individual assault same as on any day of the week .. CAPO whose leader was Chalerm should have ensured security in and around polling stations but he is actually on record as saying that the EC have to ask on a case by case basis .. yep. Whose fault is it.. both bloody sides, they both acted like kindergarten children!

[aussieinthailand]

SPIN THIS IF YA CAN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lots more where that came from. who ordered this? who's whistle blowing thugs are these? were the police ordered by the courts not to touch protesters as they are "PEACEFUL"? Who's to blame??? there's even a photo where a grandmother is attacked for wanting to vote, so much for the respect for the elders huh. and videos of people climbing locked gates because they wanted to vote and were prevented, c'mon you usual suspects spin it I dare you. we all know who is to blame but the person that will be held responsible is also selected in advance as usual.

There's no spin.. individual actions should have been sorted out by the police. The courts said no forced movement of the protestors. This is an individual assault same as on any day of the week .. CAPO whose leader was Chalerm should have ensured security in and around polling stations but he is actually on record as saying that the EC have to ask on a case by case basis .. yep. Whose fault is it.. both bloody sides, they both acted like kindergarten children!

Are you taking the p*ss? seriously, "individual actions", there's thousands of pic's just like this and you contend they are "individual actions",,, c'mon have the stones to admit what is in front of you, this was sanctioned by the "peaceful" people,

the attackers are all politically motivated thugs and motivated by WHOM???? geeezz could it be the same person that "invited" people to kidnap YL and MP's and told their family to run and hide for their own safety? He's on record saying mate, so yeah again, SPIN IT IF YA CAN, now you can do it popit, just look at the pic and give an honest answer.

Where candidates blocked from registering ? who's to blame?

where people blocked and bashed for exercising their legal right to vote? who "invited the blockader's to do this?

was it legally required for an election to be held 60 days after government being dissolved?

would it be legal for a PM to step down and give control of the government to unelected people?

Edited February 21, 2015 by aussieinthailand

[casualbiker]

SPIN THIS IF YA CAN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lots more where that came from. who ordered this? who's whistle blowing thugs are these? were the police ordered by the courts not to touch protesters as they are "PEACEFUL"? Who's to blame??? there's even a photo where a grandmother is attacked for wanting to vote, so much for the respect for the elders huh. and videos of people climbing locked gates because they wanted to vote and were prevented, c'mon you usual suspects spin it I dare you. we all know who is to blame but the person that will be held responsible is also selected in advance as usual.

There's no spin.. individual actions should have been sorted out by the police. The courts said no forced movement of the protestors. This is an individual assault same as on any day of the week .. CAPO whose leader was Chalerm should have ensured security in and around polling stations but he is actually on record as saying that the EC have to ask on a case by case basis .. yep. Whose fault is it.. both bloody sides, they both acted like kindergarten children!

Are you taking the p*ss? seriously, "individual actions", c'mon have the stones to admit what is in front of you, this was sanctioned by the "peaceful" people,

the attackers are all politically motivated thugs and motivated by WHOM???? geeezz could it be the same person that "invited" people to kidnap YL and MP's and told their family to run and hide for their own safety? He's on record saying mate, so yeah again, SPIN IT IF YA CAN, now you can do it popit, just look at the pic and give an honest answer.

You're obviously not reading what I'm writing,

I said that the scene in the picture was an individual action of assault therefore the police had all the powers to intervene and stop it the same as any day of the week.

The fact is CAPO under MP Chalerm didn't facilitate enough police to ensure these actions didn't happen.

There were many complaints from polling stations that police either didn't turn up or actually left the polling stations forcing the station to close early.

There you go pop it.

In answer to your last statement reference 60 days. It is exactly what Thaksin did previously, he actually won the vote in 2005 but things were getting tough, there were a lot of investigations into his business dealings so in 2006 he dissolved Parliament. He then resigned 2 days later and went on holiday leaving a deputy in charge... later after various court cases reference the election. He comes back and takes over as caretaker PM. It's now more than 60 days from dissolution with no real election in sight .. ....

Edited February 21, 2015 by casualbiker

[In Town]

Actually, I was there, and the could not have intervened in a normal way due to the number of protesters surrounding the station. They could have employed the methods of the previous government and deployed police snipers to shoot the thugs blocking entrance to the stations, but that of course would be overkill, and morally repugnant. So, what to do?