Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

[webfact]

Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

Peter Walker

Human rights activists express alarm about British police evidence supplied to Thai authorities investigating murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller

LONDON: -- Human rights activists have expressed alarm after it emerged that British police might have breached legal guidelines by providing evidence to Thai authorities which could potentially help them execute suspects accused of murdering two British backpackers.

The investigation into the deaths of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller in September on the holiday island of Koh Tao has already prompted concern following claims that the two young Burmese migrant workers arrested for the crime were tortured by Thai police to secure confessions, which they then retracted.

The suspects, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 21, face trial in July, and Thai prosecutors say they will seek the death penalty. Under a British government protocol,British police and officials should not normally provide evidence when defendants face capital punishment in a foreign jurisdiction without getting assurances a death sentence will not be carried out.

However, in an email to the rights group Reprieve, the Foreign Office (FCO) said it had learned that four English police forces conducted interviews about the case at the request of their Thai counterparts and passed on the information. Reprieve says it does not believe assurances over execution were sought. The FCO declined to comment on this point.

More widely, Reprieve claims British police and officials have been giving “one-sided assistance” by handing information to Thai authorities but refusing to share any of it with the defence team.

Witheridge, 23, was raped and beaten to death while Miller, 24, was struck on the head and left to drown in shallow surf. During a frantic two-week investigation, Thailand’s military prime minister, General Prayuth Chan-ocha, said he believed migrant workers were the culprits. Soon afterwards, two young Burmese men were arrested.

Full story: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/01/capital-punishment-concerns-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-murder-thailand

-- The Guardian 2015-03-02[/b]

[clockman]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

[Anthony5]

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

[Fat Haggis]

Doesn't mention what form the evidence was/is.

Evidence or interview statetements?

[greenchair]

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.

That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.

Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

[sweatalot]

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.

That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.

Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

"The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. "

I am not aware of any such evidence

[TooPoopedToPop]

Wasn't it claimed at the time that the British police were sidelined by the RTP and didn't play an effectual role in the investigation?

Now this article alleges that they did participate and have been giving "one-sided assistance" to the prosecution.

[Nemesis7]

True justice wont be served here, no matter how much you pray for it.

[eeworldwide]

GROAN..... This is TERRIBLE. What the flipping heck is going on??!!

I reserve judgement re Zaw and Wai, because I'm not privvy to all the "evidence" and we all know it's a total shambles of a case.

Now it looks like it's been screwed up beyond all repair.

Only God can help this now.

[Docno]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

I'm not clear how you reached your conclusion from this article. It states that British police have been helping with the investigation/prosecution of (non-British) individuals accused of murdering British citizens. They are helping British citizens (the families of the deceased) by ensuring that those who committed the crimes see justice. I don't see how you conclude the opposite.

[ThaidaGwaii]

Simple. Killing people is wrong.

Death penalty is wrong.

[loonodingle]

Wasn't it claimed at the time that the British police were sidelined by the RTP and didn't play an effectual role in the investigation?

Now this article alleges that they did participate and have been giving "one-sided assistance" to the prosecution.

What this means is although the Thai Police refused to allow the UK police to investigate or verify anything at all, the RTP have used the UK Police as their Lacky's to run around trying to dig up more evidence.

Personally i think as long as the lads didn't do it then i fail to see how interviewing the UK witnesses will sink their case.

Obviously there is a knee jerk reaction to say what a bunch of Tw@'s but think about it...One thing that the Defence wanted is the Witnesses version of events. So this is out there now.. The only problem is its been retained by the UK and Thai Police and not shared.

I am sure Maya Foa and Zoe Bedford at Reprieve are working diligently to uncover the web of deceit that has been woven by the UK police forces with the assistance of Hugo Swire in the FCO.

The very fact that this has come to light is through their hard work in tracking down the witnesses and asking questions i am sure. So it comes to light then when they say Ohhhh.... We have already spoken to the UK police.

The MPS letter was very devious as it related specifically to their force and excluded the other 4 counties. All smoke and mirrors.

The UK Gov and Police seem to be hell bent on getting a prosecution at any costs. But lets face it we have had numerous revelations about the security services and police over the years so nothing should be a surprise. Assisting torture, covering up torture etc etc etc.

[loonodingle]

Simple. Killing people is wrong.

Death penalty is wrong.

Personally i have no problem with the guilty people being executed as long as its 110% proven guilty.

However Thailand hasn't executed anyone since 2009..

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Thailand

"The last known executions took place in Thailand on August 24, 2009"

[Baerboxer]

Wasn't it claimed at the time that the British police were sidelined by the RTP and didn't play an effectual role in the investigation?

Now this article alleges that they did participate and have been giving "one-sided assistance" to the prosecution.

Read the article again very slowly.

Several British police forces and the Jersey police were asked to interview witnesses that had returned to Britain and Jersey.

Reprieve's beef is that the police forces and the FCO won't comment on whether assurances regarding not applying the death penalty were sought. The fact the Reprieve spokesperson states the trial is flawed before it even takes place suggests their mindset.

One sided assistance ? The British and Jersey police were responding to the RTP request. Where does it say that the defense have requested anything or it's automatically assumed they should be given copies of everything? Thai law does not require the prosecution to share all evidence before the trial begins with the defense team or presumably vice versa.

The way the article reads suggests the various forces involved and FCO were operating individually to specific requests rather than collectively. Wonder if that is so.

No doubt far more to come out at the trial.

[khunPer]

Could a problem with transparency be this: »During a frantic two-week investigation, Thailand’s military prime minister, General Prayuth Chan-ocha, said he believed migrant workers were the culprits. Soon afterwards, two young Burmese men were arrested.«...?

[Rykbanlor]

True justice wont be served here, no matter how much you pray for it.

No matter how much you pray for it, no.

No Matter how much you pay for it, then we're talking.

[AleG]

I wonder what Reprive has to say regarding the matter of prejudicing the case and the people peddling conspiracy theories and speculation about it.

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.
That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.
Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

You desperately need a reality check, no police and/or prosecution would indict people and produce evidence of their innocence.

What you are calling for doesn't happen, here in Thailand or anywhere else in the world, ever.

But I see the mental loop you are stuck on: if there's no evidence of their innocence it doesn't mean that there actually is no evidence of their innocence, instead it "proves" that there's a conspiracy to hide it.

Circular logic, simple, easy and comforting but any similarities with reality are a mere coincidence.

[loonodingle]

I wonder what Reprive has to say regarding the matter of prejudicing the case and the people peddling conspiracy theories and speculation about it.

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.

That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.

Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

You desperately need a reality check, no police and/or prosecution would indict people and produce evidence of their innocence.

What you are calling for doesn't happen, here in Thailand or anywhere else in the world, ever.

But I see the mental loop you are stuck on: if there's no evidence of their innocence it doesn't mean that there actually is no evidence of their innocence, instead it "proves" that there's a conspiracy to hide it.

Circular logic, simple, easy and comforting but any similarities with reality are a mere coincidence.

The Uk Police have withheld evidence in many cases to the detriment of the defence, the cases have then collapsed on appeal.

Its not just a Thai thing.

I would personally like to see a transparent case to put to rest all the conspiracy theories and assure all 4 families that a just trial was carried out.

If one side or the other denies this basic Human Right then it surely must call into question the validity of the case.

[rockingrobin]

Wasn't it claimed at the time that the British police were sidelined by the RTP and didn't play an effectual role in the investigation?

Now this article alleges that they did participate and have been giving "one-sided assistance" to the prosecution.

Read the article again very slowly.

Several British police forces and the Jersey police were asked to interview witnesses that had returned to Britain and Jersey.

Reprieve's beef is that the police forces and the FCO won't comment on whether assurances regarding not applying the death penalty were sought. The fact the Reprieve spokesperson states the trial is flawed before it even takes place suggests their mindset.

One sided assistance ? The British and Jersey police were responding to the RTP request. Where does it say that the defense have requested anything or it's automatically assumed they should be given copies of everything? Thai law does not require the prosecution to share all evidence before the trial begins with the defense team or presumably vice versa.

The way the article reads suggests the various forces involved and FCO were operating individually to specific requests rather than collectively. Wonder if that is so.

No doubt far more to come out at the trial.

According to article

Legal guidelines , evidence should not be provided in death penalty cases, my understanding is that Thailand is tier 3 and the UK would assert EU minimum standards

The information was passed on informally without assurances over the death penalty

The Met police refused to pass its report to Thai police due to the death penalty, and refused to give to defence

It is not clear from the article if the FCO or Met or individual forces provided the alleged evidence or not (see below)

"Hampshire police said it interviewed a witness over the case but that, as far as it knew, the information had not yet been passed on to Thai police. Jersey, Essex and Hertfordshire police referred the matter to the Met, who in turn referred it to the FCO.

The FCO said it could not assist the defence: “The evidence to be presented to the court was and remains in the possession of the Thai police and prosecutor. Decisions about what and how this will be presented at any trial are for the Thai authorities to make.

“The British government cannot interfere in Thailand’s judicial proceedings, just as other governments are unable to interfere in our own judicial processes." "

With regards the British government and foreign affairs an article called "Saudi Babylon" gives an insight into their workings

[Jonmarleesco]

I thought the British police came over to observe, and possibly advise, not to hand evidence to local police, whose investigation had proved grossly incompetent; and certainly not to conduct interviews for them.

[loonodingle]

I thought the British police came over to observe, and possibly advise, not to hand evidence to local police, whose investigation had proved grossly incompetent; and certainly not to conduct interviews for them.

In the first instance the Prime Minister agreed to the Verification of evidence, following a petition to the UK Gove and the subsequent request by David Cameron.

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller Petition

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/17/uk-police-thai-murder-inquiry

A Quote

"Details of the British police to be sent to Thailand are yet to be ironed out and there was no immediate word on how many investigators would be sent or when. The source said Britain would work to ensure further independent verification of the DNA samples that Thai police claim link the two men to the murders. The other area of concern is the Burmese suspects’ allegations of mistreatment"

Then the RTP Chief of police scuppered that.

http://www.asianewsnet.net/Foreign-investigators-barred-from-Thailand-police--66057.html

[greenchair]

Great to see you back loony.

Actually, if you look in the Thai criminal code it is also an offense to withhold information that would distort the truth of the evidence. So for example, if the coroner had conclusive evidence of dna that showed it did not belong to the boys. And the brit police new that. And did not inform the defense. And the b2 died because of that. And then it was revealed that they knew all along b2 were innocent.

Wouldn't that be a crime? ??????

[luckyman]

Simple. Killing people is wrong.

Death penalty is wrong.

Personally i have no problem with the guilty people being executed as long as its 110% proven guilty.

However Thailand hasn't executed anyone since 2009..

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Thailand

"The last known executions took place in Thailand on August 24, 2009"

"The last known executions took place in Thailand on August 24, 2009"

with an emphasis on the word 'known', I presume ?

[cookee68]

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.

That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.

Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

Did you not read the article, the Thai police do not have to show advanced disclosure to the defence lawyers, like you have too in the UK, and nobody even knows what it is supposed to have been said or written, or even if there is such a report against anyone by the UK police, maybe, just maybe have you considered that they are guilty, and that can not be expressed by the UK police due to the death penalty scenario, I am still waiting to see these famous witnesses, and the overwhelming evidence that the defence are going to produce, and that are going to help prove their innocence, I for one believe it to be no more than a smoke screen, or straw clutching, or public sympathy collecting, to convince people that they are innocent, they have more evidence against them, than they have for them, so I suggest their legal team start getting their act together, instead of trying to talk a good game, and accusing every one of interfering with them, they should consider thinking about contacting people like Paul Daniels, or David Blaine for some help on their illusions, because they are slowly running out of excuses now, But that is my opinion, and every one has their own.

[jdinasia]

I suggest a reread of the article.

The UK police have no actual evidence. They can't hand over reports that summarize the work product of the RTP.

The case isn't under UK jurisdiction.

The defense can interview potential witnesses but if witness statements to the RTP have only been provided informally then those statements are inadmissible here. (I think they would be inadmissible unless taken by the RTP and the witnesses being on the court witness list but am not sure.)

[dotpoom]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

I thought the article was saying that the British police were accused of giving too much help?

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about UK law have been removed.

Other trolling nonsense posts have been removed as well.

[Thai at Heart]

Sounds to me like a convenient way of getting them to avoid the death penalty.....to save embarrasing the Brits

[sweatalot]

Oh I get it now, evidence in a double murder case should be swept under the rug, because the accused could face the same ordeal as their victims.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. But when so much evidence is hidden which may in fact show the two to be totally innocent, that may make them a party to a gross miscarriage of justice. The police have a duty to be neutral to all sides.

That means providing evidences of guilt and evidences of innocence to all parties , so that a fair representation can be fought in the courts. In the case of death penalty, by giving or withholding, they may contribute to the death of two people. The evidence to show their guilt has been open to the world. But all evidence of their innocence has been withheld, destroyed and manipulated.

Should evidence of their innocence be swept under the rug, all in an effort to save face?????? And make sure someone /anyone will go to the hang mans noose. ????

Did you not read the article, the Thai police do not have to show advanced disclosure to the defence lawyers, like you have too in the UK, and nobody even knows what it is supposed to have been said or written, or even if there is such a report against anyone by the UK police, maybe, just maybe have you considered that they are guilty, and that can not be expressed by the UK police due to the death penalty scenario, I am still waiting to see these famous witnesses, and the overwhelming evidence that the defence are going to produce, and that are going to help prove their innocence, I for one believe it to be no more than a smoke screen, or straw clutching, or public sympathy collecting, to convince people that they are innocent, they have more evidence against them, than they have for them, so I suggest their legal team start getting their act together, instead of trying to talk a good game, and accusing every one of interfering with them, they should consider thinking about contacting people like Paul Daniels, or David Blaine for some help on their illusions, because they are slowly running out of excuses now, But that is my opinion, and every one has their own.

" they have more evidence against them,"

Can you please name this "evidence"?

[sweatalot]

I read the article but I could not find that the results of the witness interviews was evidence AGAINST the Burmese