Electrical wiring in View Talay 1 & 2 condo units

[wpcoe]

Amongst other choices, I've been looking at condo ads for VT1 & VT2 buildings. I noticed that in the pictures for VT1 units, that there were 2-prong outlets (i.e. could not accept a plug with a grounding pin ). I wasn't too surprised since they were built quite some time ago, relatively speaking in the Pattaya market. However, I just noticed some pictures of VT2 units that also have only 2-prong outlets. That did surprise me a bit, since it was built a few years later, and I assumed that it would have upgraded systems.

Can an owner of a condo unit in any of these buildings upgrade the wiring in his unit to include the ubiquitous-in-the-west third green wire to have grounded (earthed) 3-prong outlets? i.e. Is there any earth/ground wiring at all within the building infrastructure to tap into? I don't mean the connect-a-green-wire-to-a-nail-in-the-wall Thai system. I mean a true ground/earth system that will carry current into Mother Earth.

I'd be delighted to hear from any owner who actually has a grounded/earthed electrical system in a VT1 or VT2 building, but not holding my breath.

[Pattaya46]

Can an owner of a condo unit in any of these buildings upgrade the wiring in his unit to include the ubiquitous-in-the-west third green wire to have grounded (earthed) 3-prong outlets?

The View Talays condos new units were sold as "shell", with absolutely nothing inside and no wiring yet.

The wires & plugs locations, the type of wires & plugs, all are the owner choice.

As an owner your can yes upgrade this, but probably not so easy to replace existing 2-wires cables

by bigger 3-wires cables... often bad sliding inside protection tubes.

For the earth/ground you usually don't have any. Water canalisation often are PVC so useless.

Connecting to the metal grid inside the concrete wall near your breaker is common practice.

[wpcoe]

So there is no earth/ground system in the building infrastructure that leads, for example, to a copper ground spike and/or an Ufer ground?

I'd be willing to grind new channels into the render/concete (bricks?) to re-wire a condo unit (at least for some of the outlets) and have the wall re-rendered, BUT there must be something to which to connect a ground/earth bar in a consumer unit before I'd do that.

To connect to the metal grid inside a concrete wall, do you drill random holes until you hit a piece of rebar? Or, would a magnetic "stud finder" tool work to locate the metal? What are the chances that the rebar in a 15th floor unit will make continuous contact with other rebar to make a path down to the earth? I thought I'd read that was a hit-or-miss proposition?

I wonder if it'd be acceptable to run a ground/earth wire down through the open shafts that contain the plumbing pipes and somehow run the wire to a ground spike in an inconspicuous place. By acceptable, I mean sanctioned by the building management.

Edited March 2, 2015 by wpcoe

[joesanunu]

Are the fire sprinkler pipes metal? That might be a place to find ground?

Isn't they a utility room next to the lift shafts? There should be a ground in there, no?

Agree about finding a rebar inside the concrete. Doubtful it reaches ground.

[fosseway]

Can an owner of a condo unit in any of these buildings upgrade the wiring in his unit to include the ubiquitous-in-the-west third green wire to have grounded (earthed) 3-prong outlets?

The View Talays condos new units were sold as "shell", with absolutely nothing inside and no wiring yet.

The wires & plugs locations, the type of wires & plugs, all are the owner choice.

As an owner your can yes upgrade this, but probably not so easy to replace existing 2-wires cables

by bigger 3-wires cables... often bad sliding inside protection tubes.

For the earth/ground you usually don't have any. Water canalisation often are PVC so useless.

Connecting to the metal grid inside the concrete wall near your breaker is common practice.

[fosseway]

Yes, connect to the re. bar, just lift a ceiling panel in a basic unit, you will probably find bits sticking out.

[fosseway]

Are the fire sprinkler pipes metal? That might be a place to find ground?

Isn't they a utility room next to the lift shafts? There should be a ground in there, no?

Agree about finding a rebar inside the concrete. Doubtful it reaches ground.

I would not want to live in the building if it did't reach the ground !

[chakatee]

How many people were electrocuted in some way in VT1, 2 or any other condo in the last let's say 10 years? Let's then compare the odds with 100 other daily life situations.

[Forkinhades]

// MOVED to the electrical forum //

[Forkinhades]

Please read this pinned thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/693630-how-to-make-your-thai-electrical-system-safe/

[Forkinhades]

However you make your 'earth' connection, one thing is for sure is that the value needs to be measured. Which is rather easier said than done.

Many threads on that subject

[wpcoe]

Please read this pinned thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/693630-how-to-make-your-thai-electrical-system-safe/

I don't see how that helps me earth/ground a condo on the 15th floor unless I can run an earth/ground wire down 15 floors to tierra and pound in a copper ground stake.

While I do understand why this thread was moved to the Electrical Forum, I posted it in the Pattaya forum with the hopes that some VT1/VT2 owner had experience with installing a properly earthed electrical system in his condo unit. The Pattaya forum has a fast moving thread list, and the stub pointing to this location will quickly be pushed down to distant pages.

I still wonder if there is some earthing within the building infrastructure, but not holding my breath.

I'm amazed that with the thousands of condo bathrooms in these four buildings, that we haven't heard of someone electrocuting themselves in the shower. These buildings must have powerful spirit houses and amulets.

So far, it looks like my only bets would be trying to locate rebar and see if beyond my expectations it makes a complete current path to the ground, or seeing if I could have success with the sprinkler system plumbing in the hallway.

[edited to add:]

The View Talays condos new units were sold as "shell", with absolutely nothing inside and no wiring yet.

The wires & plugs locations, the type of wires & plugs, all are the owner choice.

ISTR that the bathrooms were supplied by the developers? If so, I wonder if they ran an earth/ground wire to the bathrooms for the showers.

Edited March 3, 2015 by wpcoe

[richsilver]

I live in VT2A. My condo was build-out about 11 years ago and the electrician who did the wiring found a satisfactory ground somewhere. He ran the ground wire to most of the outlets, but neglected to use three prong outlets! I wish I had noticed it at the time, but there were so many details to look after, I missed this one. I have since properly grounded a number of appliances.

I don't know about the B building which was build earlier, but for sure you'll be able to find a proper ground in A (I live on the 18th floor -- the top).

[questionsreplies]

Vt1 is one of the best cared older property in Pattaya and building of course has real ground earth cable. Only stupid condo owners didnt connect to it.

[Forkinhades]

@ wpcoe

A lot more engineers roam this forum than the pattaya one.

Main point being that a front end safety - cut device is essential.

You can then enquire to the PEA whether VTs have MEN implemented.

If so you could find an earthing point inside the unit.

If you don't get a satisfactory answer I will gladly move it back to the Pattaya forum

[RichCor]

Are the fire sprinkler pipes metal? That might be a place to find ground?

Isn't they a utility room next to the lift shafts? There should be a ground in there, no?

Agree about finding a rebar inside the concrete. Doubtful it reaches ground.

I've read some people 'running' a third line from their Consumer Unit and bonding it to the Elevator/Lift Shaft -- or to the rebar of a support pillar if accessing the rebar to weld a connection wouldn't compromise the integrity of the pillar.

Though I'm surprised the sparkies here haven't stated fire code restrictions regarding fire sprinkler systems:

You may NOT use the fire sprinkler system as a fault current path or as a grounding electrode.

It is important to remember that there is a difference between bonding a metal object to ensure that there are no differences in potential, and in using that metal object as a fault current path and/or a grounding electrode.

[Most fire-suppression water sprinkler systems] have an electrically isolating flange installed at the base of the fire rise to the building, which will prevent your electrical system from using the buried fire rise supply pipe as an effective electrode.

Bonding is permitted, but grounding is not.

Bonding is the process of connecting the metal in the sprinkler piping to the metal in the building (like structural steel) and provides that metal with a path to ground stray electric currents. Bonding is a safety requirement for all metal. People would be electrocuted if a stray current happened to be in the pipe and a person touched the pipe if it was without a bond to ground.

Grounding, on the other hand, is the use of pipe to complete an electrical circuit so that a building’s electrical system works. If an electrical system were grounded through the sprinkler system, it would mean that a current could run through the sprinkler pipe every time electricity was used in the building. Most established fire codes prohibit the use of a sprinkler system for grounding the electrical system.

[lonewolf99]

The names Bond. Earth Bond.

All electrical wiring in LOS is a recipe for death. I was renting in VT1 a while back and put a multi meter in the socket just to check if the voltage was OK and the outlet caught fire...!! and welded one of my probes to the inside of the socket.... I won't do that again...

Good night ? Mish Munnypenny....

[Crossy]

The first place to look for a ground is inside your consumer unit (breaker box), it's quite possible that a ground was brought in and not connected to anything useful.

Then start looking at water pipes (not the sprinklers), many older buildings have galvanised incoming water.

Next on the list is building steel (re-bar or of you're lucky an I beam).

Finally your balcony railing is likely a reasonable ground (certainly good enough to stop the tingle from an un-grounded PC).

Whatever you do, the first thing to install is some form of earth leakage protection (RCD, RCBO or Safe-T-Cut), even without a ground these will provide significant protection from death by electric shock.

[wpcoe]

I live in VT2A. My condo was build-out about 11 years ago and the electrician who did the wiring found a satisfactory ground somewhere. He ran the ground wire to most of the outlets, but neglected to use three prong outlets! I wish I had noticed it at the time, but there were so many details to look after, I missed this one. I have since properly grounded a number of appliances.

I don't know about the B building which was build earlier, but for sure you'll be able to find a proper ground in A (I live on the 18th floor -- the top).

Thanks, richsilver! That's the type of first-hand report I was looking for.

Vt1 is one of the best cared older property in Pattaya and building of course has real ground earth cable. Only stupid condo owners didnt connect to it.

Do you know for a fact that the building has a ground/earth cable? I'm reluctant to make a leap of faith that because it's a well-maintained building today (which it appears to be) that the original construction team wired it in the same manner. If you know for a fact there is earth/ground wiring, that would be great to hear.

@ wpcoe

A lot more engineers roam this forum than the pattaya one.

Main point being that a front end safety - cut device is essential.

You can then enquire to the PEA whether VTs have MEN implemented.

If so you could find an earthing point inside the unit.

If you don't get a satisfactory answer I will gladly move it back to the Pattaya forum

It appears the thread has been fruitful in this forum after all. If I buy a unit in one of these buildings and re-wire it, I will install a consumer unit with a properly connected earth/ground bar with a Safe-T-Cut, probably on the man breaker -- it's not so onerous to have the whole place power off in a condo. For the sake of value to others looking for condo-related earthing/grounding, let's leave the thread here.

I've read some people 'running' a third line from their Consumer Unit and bonding it to the Elevator/Lift Shaft -- or to the rebar of a support pillar if accessing the rebar to weld a connection wouldn't compromise the integrity of the pillar.

Though I'm surprised the sparkies here haven't stated fire code restrictions regarding fire sprinkler systems:

You may NOT use the fire sprinkler system as a fault current path or as a grounding electrode.

It is important to remember that there is a difference between bonding a metal object to ensure that there are no differences in potential, and in using that metal object as a fault current path and/or a grounding electrode.

[Most fire-suppression water sprinkler systems] have an electrically isolating flange installed at the base of the fire rise to the building, which will prevent your electrical system from using the buried fire rise supply pipe as an effective electrode.

Bonding is permitted, but grounding is not.

Bonding is the process of connecting the metal in the sprinkler piping to the metal in the building (like structural steel) and provides that metal with a path to ground stray electric currents. Bonding is a safety requirement for all metal. People would be electrocuted if a stray current happened to be in the pipe and a person touched the pipe if it was without a bond to ground.

Grounding, on the other hand, is the use of pipe to complete an electrical circuit so that a building’s electrical system works. If an electrical system were grounded through the sprinkler system, it would mean that a current could run through the sprinkler pipe every time electricity was used in the building. Most established fire codes prohibit the use of a sprinkler system for grounding the electrical system.

Well, there goes the sprinkler system option. For bonding to be successful, there would need to be continuous-contact rebar (or other metal?) all the way to the soil, no?

[wpcoe]

The first place to look for a ground is inside your consumer unit (breaker box), it's quite possible that a ground was brought in and not connected to anything useful.

Then start looking at water pipes (not the sprinklers), many older buildings have galvanised incoming water.

Next on the list is building steel (re-bar or of you're lucky an I beam).

Finally your balcony railing is likely a reasonable ground (certainly good enough to stop the tingle from an un-grounded PC).

Whatever you do, the first thing to install is some form of earth leakage protection (RCD, RCBO or Safe-T-Cut), even without a ground these will provide significant protection from death by electric shock.

I can't wait to see the faces of real estate agents when I whip out my screwdriver to dismantle the consumer unit when I view prospective condos.

Seriously though, thanks Crossy for your valuable input, as always. I'd forgotten about the railing option, and hadn't thought of the I-beams.

I still get confused with the terminology. In the previous post I mentioned a Safe-T-Cut on the main breaker, but I think that should be an RCD/RCBO, no?

[Forkinhades]

Safety - cut, RCCB, RCBO, ELCB, GFLI, are all the same thing. Just labelled differently depending on where you come from.

Safety - cut is the main brand in Thailand

[RichCor]

[...]

Well, there goes the sprinkler system option. For bonding to be successful, there would need to be continuous-contact rebar (or other metal?) all the way to the soil, no?

The purpose of a Ground is to offer an alternate safe/shortest path back to originating Neutral. 'Soil', or 'the earth', just happens to offer a safe path, but not necessarily the shortest. A Ground circuit can also be used to carry minor off-path residual current (computer tingle) back to a proper return path.

I would prefer the power on a faulting circuit trigger an instantaneous power cut. So, yes, it's great to have a 'proper Ground', but even more so to have proper fault interrupt devices installed.

Safety Switch / ELCB / RCCB / GFI / GFCI / Safe-T-Cut / Trip

FAQ and useful documents

Started by Crossy, 2014-01-03 11:29

[wpcoe]

Safety Switch / ELCB / RCCB / GFI / GFCI / Safe-T-Cut / Trip

FAQ and useful documents

Started by Crossy, 2014-01-03 11:29

Great reading. There's an app a thread for everything!

I was viewing a condo for sale today and here is the elaborate "consumer unit:"

One breaker for the air con and one for everything else, including the shower heater and kitchen? But, and this is encouraging, the wiring leading from the shower heater:

If I'm correct, the thick white cable contains the neutral & live wires, so the black wire is an earth/ground wire, no? Since I was a "guest" viewing a unit for sale, and didn't have a flashlight anyway, I didn't lift a ceiling tile to see where that black wire went, but I live in optimism that it actually was attached to something.

A couple of owners I talked to said they say the know of owners who have grounded their electrical systems in the VT1 condos, so I'm feeling better about possibly buying one in either VT1 or VT2 now.

[sotsira]

I bought a condo unit in VT2A when it was first built at the end of 2003.

All the units were sold as shells with basic live & neutral only electrical wiring

through a main breaker that supplied the wall sockets and lighting circuits in each

shell unit.

Most buyers at the time upgraded their units electrical system by installing a multi

breaker consumer unit (fuse box) but as there was no earthing cables installed when

the building was constructed it prevented any electricians to use an earth inside the units

so nearly all remained with 2 pin wall sockets.

The biulding though does have steel water pipes running throughout, so the only easy option

to incorporate and earthing cable to a unit would be to secure it to the steel pipe work and run

it to all the wall sockets then replace with 3 pin, then run it to the fuse box.

This is the way i did the wiring in my unit when i bought it.

[wpcoe]

Thanks, sotsira. Actual first-hand reports like that are very helpful.

When I was in VT1B, I peered into the cabinet with the vertical pipes in the public hallway, and they looked like PVC. In VT2A's cabinets with the water pipes are there actually metal pipes that are accessible to use for grounding?

I'm still surprised that as late as the early 2000's a high-rise residential condo building wouldn't have ground/earth wires running to each unit.

[sotsira]

The PVC pipes that you refer to are the stack pipes that are used for drainage only.

The steel pipes that i'm referring to are the water supply pipes that are 3/4 & 1/2 inch

in diameter that are fed in to each condo from the water meter.

These can be used as a suitable ground to earth as they are all inter connected from the

top of the building to the ground floor.

The later built VT5 C&D buildings across the road from VT2A were the first VT condo's that

were constructed with earthing cabling throughout and to each individual unit with all having

3pin sockets from shell purchase.

[wpcoe]

I took some photos of inside a random water pipe cabinet on in VT1B:

The green pipes leading to the water meters are clearly not metal. Maybe not PVC, but some sort of plastic. Interesting that the newer VT2 buildings used metal pipes when VT1 was already using plastic. I thought the historical trend in housing (in the USA, at least) was: lead -> copper -> PVC.

[thefactoryoutlet]

They have changed all the pipes to PVC.

And ground/earth is available, so nobody needs pipes.

I wonder actually what is not clear now that we know that ground/earth is available ?

You can ask the office for confirmation, they know what they are talking about.

I took some photos of inside a random water pipe cabinet on in VT1B:

vt1b-pipes.jpg

The green pipes leading to the water meters are clearly not metal. Maybe not PVC, but some sort of plastic. Interesting that the newer VT2 buildings used metal pipes when VT1 was already using plastic. I thought the historical trend in housing (in the USA, at least) was: lead -> copper -> PVC.

[wpcoe]

And ground/earth is available, so nobody needs pipes.

I wonder actually what is not clear now that we know that ground/earth is available ?

You can ask the office for confirmation, they know what they are talking about.

What's not clear to me is *how* a ground/earth is available in the VT1 buildings:

• No earth wires in the infrastructure provided by the building. (Only live and neutral.)
• Cannot use sprinkler pipes. (Illegal and dangerous.)
• Cannot use water supply pipes. (PVC)

Other than drilling random holes looking for rebar and hoping it makes a continuous contact path to the soil, what is the solution I'm so obviously missing?

Who do I ask at the office? The ladies at the front desk couldn't even understand the log-on process for the WiFi system enough to get a technician to check the WiFi router on my floor. Is there a specific person on the maintenance staff to ask for who is competent enough with electrical wiring to provide grounding/earthing a condo unit?

[GaryB1263]

The PVC pipes that you refer to are the stack pipes that are used for drainage only.

The steel pipes that i'm referring to are the water supply pipes that are 3/4 & 1/2 inch

in diameter that are fed in to each condo from the water meter.

These can be used as a suitable ground to earth as they are all inter connected from the

top of the building to the ground floor.

The later built VT5 C&D buildings across the road from VT2A were the first VT condo's that

were constructed with earthing cabling throughout and to each individual unit with all having

3pin sockets from shell purchase.

I have seen no evidence VT5 is grounded.