Thailand Expected to Control Northeast Railway Project

[Jacob Maslow]

Thai and Chinese officials met for the third time on Wednesday to discuss the Northeast railway project. The two new rail lines will connect China and Thailand.

Thai and Chinese delegations met for the third time on Wednesday to discuss the Northeast railway project. Thailand is expected to control the project with the State Railway of Thailand having a 30% stake and private Thai firms having another 30% stake. Chinese state enterprises will have a 40% stake in the company. Transport Minister Prajin Juntong announced these new details after a meeting with Chinese officials.

The shareholder composition has yet to be finalized, but will likely be on the agenda in the next round of talks. Prajin Juntong stated that the shareholder stakes and creation of a joint venture is expected to be finalized in the next meeting. Thai and Chinese officials are expected to meet again May 6-8 in Kunming.

The joint venture project will oversee the construction and operation of the two new train tracks that connects Thailand and China. The 1.435-meter standard gauge railway will be the first one in Thailand. Trains will travel at speeds up to 180kmh. The entire railway project is expected to cost Bt328 billion.

Thailand and China signed an agreement back in December to build the rail routes. According to Prajin Juntong, the project will be divided into three phases. China will be responsible for the first three years of the project. Thailand and China will work jointly to run the service from the fourth to seventh years. Thailand will take full control of the lines after the seventh year, with China serving as an advisor.

While no details have emerged on project funding, Thailand was expected to ask for a repayment period of 25-30 years with a 7-10-year grace period. Arkom Termpittayapaisith, Deputy Transport Minister, stated that more details on the size of the loan and the investment ratio will be revealed after survey results and construction designs are released. Both the survey and designs are expected to be finalized in August.

-- 2015-03-12

[rametindallas]

The entire railway project is expected to cost Bt328 billion.

The last government wasted/stole enough money to fund two of these projects with a billion Euros left over. Is there anything of substance (that will be a benefit years from now such as increased productivity of rice farmers) to show for Ms Yingluck's two + years in office?

[Fiddlesticks]

Since the Thai will be in charge of the railway project I think the 7-10 year grace period should also extend to the expected completion date.

[BSJ]

Lets not hear about the meetings, lets hear about the date earthworks commence.

[WitawatWatawit]

Control! Chinese! Immigrants! Thailand!

Hmm, I'm trying to draw a picture here. Can anyone help?

[Lupatria]

Thailand is expected to control the project with the State Railway of Thailand

They are lucky not to be asked for a proven track record of expertise in the field of controlling Railways

[marko kok prong]

Sounds like a fiasco waiting to happen.

[Anthony5]

Both the survey and designs are expected to be finalized in August.

That's already 8 months wasted from the 24 months, starting from January 2015, it would take to complete the whole project.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Anthony5

[ExPratt]

Was reading this this morning, years 1 -3 for the Chinese to build it, They may have To extend that to year 1 -9

[ExPratt]

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Both the survey and designs are expected to be finalized in August.

That's already 8 months wasted from the 24 months, starting from January 2015, it would take to complete the whole project.

There is not a hope of doing that project in 2 years it is massive work, Lucky and very fast if they do it in 5 and I'd guess at 7+ , if they build it properly

[DonaldBattles]

Once the Chinese find a way to dig their meat hooks in they will never take them out. At least this train should not jump the track every week.

[Anthony5]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Both the survey and designs are expected to be finalized in August.

That's already 8 months wasted from the 24 months, starting from January 2015, it would take to complete the whole project.

There is not a hope of doing that project in 2 years it is massive work, Lucky and very fast if they do it in 5 and I'd guess at 7+ , if they build it properly

You mean it was just blatant lies propaganda from that concerned minister last month? Naaah, that isn't possible under this happy bunch that is governing the country currently.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Both the survey and designs are expected to be finalized in August.

That's already 8 months wasted from the 24 months, starting from January 2015, it would take to complete the whole project.

There is not a hope of doing that project in 2 years it is massive work, Lucky and very fast if they do it in 5 and I'd guess at 7+ , if they build it properly

You mean it was just blatant lies propaganda from that concerned minister last month? Naaah, that isn't possible under this happy bunch that is governing the country currently.

I do apologize if I've shattered your dream

[chooka]

Is China really going to put up all the capital and then give control to thai? They will screw you over and if you complain then you will be hit with a defamation case. I thought China was smarter than to deal with Thailand. I wouldn't invest a single satang in Thailand because the will strip you of your 1st born, sell them for medical experiments and then sue you for the transportation costs.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Is China really going to put up all the capital and then give control to thai? They will screw you over and if you complain then you will be hit with a defamation case. I thought China was smarter than to deal with Thailand. I wouldn't invest a single satang in Thailand because the will strip you of your 1st born, sell them for medical experiments and then sue you for the transportation costs.

Apparently 40% for China , 30% each Thai Government , Thai business, so there will be some webs weaved between that little lot

[Srikcir]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Is China really going to put up all the capital and then give control to thai? They will screw you over and if you complain then you will be hit with a defamation case. I thought China was smarter than to deal with Thailand. I wouldn't invest a single satang in Thailand because the will strip you of your 1st born, sell them for medical experiments and then sue you for the transportation costs.

Originally the Chinese were financing 80% of the project and would receive 80% of revenues for 20 years to pay off the debt service. Now the deal is that they will finance 30%. After startup of the line the Chinese essentialy become silent investors.

I would worry now more about who the priviledged Thai investors are that will contribute 30% of the financing from a corruption viewpoint. How were they selected and what specific terms were negotiated with them? Why is the Junta not financing 70% of the project instead? It can afford the borrowed funds.

Superficially, this more detailed government-to-government deal looks much better. With Thai government investment there will be some contribution to GDP growth. Maybe the Junta will be willing to make a full disclosure of the entire deal, including all the side rail development agreements, for the sake of transparency. With regards to the control of the rail line will the Junta be on the board of directors who normally receive compensation?

But I wouldn't put a lot of faith into complete transparency happening. That's not Prayut's style. He is more of a "If you don't like, you can leave" guy.

[onni4me]

State Railway of Thailand having a 30% stake and private Thai firms having another 30% stake. Chinese state enterprises will have a 40% stake in the company.

Chinese must be lining up where to sign...

I wonder should they propose some sort of agreement based on paid loans versus power of control?

Nothing can't go wrong here. Can it?

[angiolo]

I cant see this railway being completed efficiently if Thais are in control of the money.

[Rancid]

The Chinese have their own ways of building influence that usually includes building needed infrastructure. Seems like a good deal for Thailand.

Compared to the European system of colonisation and stealing everything or the US taking & just leaving smoking ruins and dead bodies, the Chinese don't sound too bad.

[Nbarch]

Chinese railways expertise built the TAZARA railway, widely accepted as a financial disaster.

[ExPratt]

Joint Thai-Chinese railway plan on track, says minister

Hilly Terrain = Tunnels and Viaducts I'd imagine

THE NATION March 13, 2015 1:00 am

THAILAND and China are expected to finish surveying the routes and designing the dual-track railway on time, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong said yesterday. The Thailand-China joint committee held its third meeting on developing the standard-gauge (1.435 metre) railroad linking Kunming in China with Vientiane in Laos and Bangkok and Map Ta Phut in Thailand.

The survey and design for Phase 1 (Bangkok-Kaeng Khoi, Saraburi) and Phase 2 (Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut) are scheduled to be completed by August by China Railways Corporation and China Railway Construction Corporation.

The survey and design of Phase 3 (Kaeng Khoi-Nakhon Ratchasima) and Phase 4 (Nakhon Ratchasima-Nong Khai) is scheduled to be completed by December by the two Chinese corporations.

All parties will set up field offices this month to oversee construction.

The project will be divided into three parts:

 Basic infrastructure - track-laying and power-supply work will be undertaken by Thailand;

 Hilly terrain - advanced technology and the railway signalling system will be the responsibility of China;

 Operations and maintenance - will be handled by both countries.

Full article http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Joint-Thai-Chinese-railway-plan-on-track-says-mini-30255891.html?

[harada]

I can see a few new billionaires being created here.

[Robby nz]

I would like to ask you ExPratt , because you actually know what you are talking about.

Seems to me the planning for this is moving along at a fast pace without a lot of mucking around, would you agree with that ?

From what I see on the map a lot of the route will follow existing tracks, I read that railway own land either side of tracks so following those tracks would make it easier not only for on the ground work but land acquisition as well, would that be right ?

What could be the input of outside companies or contractors (small or large), Thai or otherwise in all of this ?

[cooked]

I still want to know who will be driving these and maintaining these things. Will they 'forget' to maintain the budget needed for spare parts like they did with the airport link c&*(up?

Maybe some of the minibus drivers that will go out of business when the railway is finished?

[cooked]

I would like to ask you ExPratt , because you actually know what you are talking about.

Seems to me the planning for this is moving along at a fast pace without a lot of mucking around, would you agree with that ?

From what I see on the map a lot of the route will follow existing tracks, I read that railway own land either side of tracks so following those tracks would make it easier not only for on the ground work but land acquisition as well, would that be right ?

What could be the input of outside companies or contractors (small or large), Thai or otherwise in all of this ?

The railway between Buriram and Bangkok has been fenced in over the last few years, at least 12 meters distance each side I think. I assume that this land was purchased long ago, in the rest of the country also.

[BSJ]

I would like to ask you ExPratt , because you actually know what you are talking about.

Seems to me the planning for this is moving along at a fast pace without a lot of mucking around, would you agree with that ?

From what I see on the map a lot of the route will follow existing tracks, I read that railway own land either side of tracks so following those tracks would make it easier not only for on the ground work but land acquisition as well, would that be right ?

What could be the input of outside companies or contractors (small or large), Thai or otherwise in all of this ?

The railway between Buriram and Bangkok has been fenced in over the last few years, at least 12 meters distance each side I think. I assume that this land was purchased long ago, in the rest of the country also.

12M is fine on straight track but the new railway will have curves with a radii that will exceed the radii of the old track. On curves the track is canted so the train will lean in to overcome centrifugal force but there is a limit to the lean. I'd have to look it up but they have to factor in so much information I couldn't just say it's 1% or 2% or 3%. But the Japanese and Spanish (and others) have partly overcome the problem by having the train lean into curves. It's OK for passenger service but not used for freight.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I would like to ask you ExPratt , because you actually know what you are talking about.

Seems to me the planning for this is moving along at a fast pace without a lot of mucking around, would you agree with that ?

From what I see on the map a lot of the route will follow existing tracks, I read that railway own land either side of tracks so following those tracks would make it easier not only for on the ground work but land acquisition as well, would that be right ?

What could be the input of outside companies or contractors (small or large), Thai or otherwise in all of this ?

Hello Rob , In my opinion because they are changing from 1 m gauge to 1435 it will be more problematic to build on the existing alignment but less expensive that building on a completely new alignment. What you have to consider is keeping a service running during construction. If you are changing old like for new like its far easier. Close down the running line for 4 or 5 hours rip out the track , re-build and open the track up , that a simple way of describing it.If the track gauge is different it is far more complicated to do that A lot will depend on the alignment , faster track means longer curves so it will at least there, wander onto new alignment. I'm sure they will build considerably on the old alignment to save money but it is problematic , its not only track of course they wall have a new formation as well and Tunnels and viaducts. I will be interested to see the method used. During the interim stage there will also be a requirement for temporal signaling , which has to be commissioned at each addition to "Temporary Track"

Another way of building is basically build one side , swap the trains from existing to new then take out the old existing and build new , but how to do with different gauge , It doable of course but not easy

Land acquisitions are solely on the Government and can be a can of worms , my last job in Malaysia the Land acquisitions put an 11 month delay in the program , every man (1000s)and equipment left to finish the job for those 11 months had to paid for on top of original cost by the Malaysian Government , Hundreds of millions of Ringgit

From what I read pretty much the Thais will do the Track work leaving civil s, Traction current and signalling to the Chinese. I would look at the old favorites , Sino -Thai . Ital Thai involved somewhere. Lots of little companies for brothers , sisters , wives of Railway and government officials ,that is normal and they are pretty untouchable,Not sure how the Chinese will do it ,10 years ago they used Government Construction" Bureau's " which in reality were loads of sub-cons

Edited March 13, 2015 by ExPratt

[ExPratt]

This one is a bit different , it has Thailand doing the civils

Sino-Thai accord reached on rail project engineeringBy ZHAO YANRONG (China Daily)Updated: 2015-03-14 08:32

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A view of a railway track in Honghe Prefecture, Yunnan province, in a 2014 file photo. The station dating back to 1910s is said to be one of China's oldest railway stations. [Photo/IC]

China and Thailand are to cooperate on a prominent form of contracting agreement relating to building a railway linking the two countries.

The agreement, known as an engineering procurement construction pattern, will cover a standard gauge dual-track system.

Further details on investment and funding are likely to be finalized in May, Thai officials said.

The two delegations met this week in Nong Khai in northeastern Thailand for the third round of talks on the Sino-Thai railway cooperation project.

Reports said officials visited Nong Khai to inspect locations for the project. Nong Khai province has high potential to become an interchange for passengers connecting between trains from Kunming in southwestern China to services running to Vientiane, the capital of Laos.

The long-anticipated project, which will see trains running at up to 180 km an hour, has been postponed because of political turbulence in Thailand.

The signing of the latest agreement was witnessed by Premier Li Keqiang and his Thai counterpart, Prayut Chan-o-cha, in December during the fifth Greater Mekong Subregion Economic Cooperation summit in Bangkok.

Under the agreement, Chinese companies will also design and build rail routes to ease transportation into and out of Bangkok－the second-largest city in Southeast Asia after Jakarta. The 734-km project will connect Nong Khai province with the Thai capital. A 133-km branch line will be built to the eastern Thai province of Rayong.

Prajin Juntong, Thailand's transport minister, said the Thai and Chinese governments agreed to cooperate on an engineering procurement construction pattern at the meeting and also discussed issues including investment, human resource development and technology transfer.

Thailand will carry out an environmental impact assessment and be in charge of land acquisition for the construction work, Bangkok Post reported.

The two countries also reached agreement on sharing the work. Details of this will be discussed again at the fourth meeting of the joint working group in Kunming, Yunnan province, from May 6 to 8, Prajin said.

An official source familiar with the project said that under the engineering procurement agreement, Thailand will be responsible for the civil engineering work and infrastructure, while China will be in charge of systems and technical issues.

Thai media reports had said that the Thai government is the project owner, with China responsible for designing, constructing and buying track systems and equipment.

International affairs observer Zheng Xin said reports in Thailand before the meeting that stated China had insisted on lending money to Thailand at a high interest rate did not make any sense.

[BSJ]

"International affairs observer Zheng Xin said reports in Thailand before the meeting that stated China had insisted on lending money to Thailand at a high interest rate did not make any sense." I was under the impression the interest rate was most favourable to Thailand! Is the truth slowly coming out now?

[ExPratt]

PM triumphs on tackling tasks but why's he so keen on the 'bullet' train?

March 16, 2015 1:00 am

It strikes me that the prime minister is taking far more criticism than he deserves.

For the most part, he has done a credible job of running the country, preventing violence and attempting to reorganise the basic structure of things.

He has personally addressed far more subjects than one would expect any person to be able to handle, so he is obviously well organised and efficient.

He has either backed off of or postponed any proposals that have not received popular appeal.

I am disappointed that the electoral system was glazed over but so be it.

The one thing that does have me baffled though is this business about the 'bullet' train. Not once has he shown any weakness to criticism of it, nor even addressed such criticism.

He resolutely moves forward with it with much like John Paul Jones and his "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" resolve.

My question is why?

In a country where the vast majority of highways are two-lane roads, which contribute to a very high accident rate, and an existing rail system that isn't a rail system at all, but rather a point-to-point system, that's it.

But you can't go from A to B or C to A or D to B or anywhere for that matter. It is also in a country that has all manner of funding problems. And yet, he stands by this 'bullet' train project.

I have always found in my life that some of the seemingly most asinine plots you run into have a reason for them. Actually, there is a reason for everything, but if a valid one for the 'bullet' train exists, I haven't heard it.

I really wish someone would explain it to me so that it makes sense, because at face value, it seems to be the poor farmer's wife who goes out and buys a mink coat on credit.

This issue aside, I give the PM all the credit he deserves for an intrepid attempt to help the people of Thailand lead a better life.

John Arnone

Yasothon