How to "goose" a lethargic condo population into action against corrupt administration?

[wpcoe]

.... I'm beginning to think this bunch of Owners would meekly offer up their first born to avoid bother with the Administration!

There's nothing odd about that. In my experience most owners in most buildings here just dont want to know. This is why the unscrupulous have little trouble walking all over them.

Thailand has no shortage of people who just dont want to make any effort if they can possibly avoid it. Some are born here and some move here.

The lack of effort extends to management and management companies also. They dont want to put any effort into checking anything, so they just "trust" other people's work. In fact it's all just bone idleness.

It's not just a Thailand thing. I was on the board of a condo association back in the USA, and there was very little interest from fellow owners. If it weren't for proxy votes signed over to the board, there would never have been a productive meeting. The owners basically said: Take care of the building, we're not getting involved.

[KittenKong]

I can see no other solution -other than to use a good lawyer.

If ,however you could find away to double the cam fees using the 'Special Assessment 'device (on say a 3 year deal)

That will definitely get the attention of all your fellow co -owners.

You cant do that without a vote. Who would vote for such a thing?

Those like Ripley who wish to see change

Only a simple win vote at legal general meeting is required

Ripley's opening Q was about motivating lethargic co -owners

Increasing the fees should do it

That said it will need leadership from an interested co -owner

Ripley needs to ask himself 'Am I up to it?'

I dont know. I'm the sort of person who attends AGMs as a matter of course, and would never miss one. I'm always a bit astonished that so few people do actually attend.

But having seen the people who do attend our meetings (and of course they are the motivated, maybe conscientious, 25%) I think it would be a cold day in hell before a majority of them would vote to double or triple the special fee. They might vote to ditch a corrupt management company though, and of course they have to elect a new committee every two years come what may (assuming anyone stands for the job).

[KittenKong]

It's not just a Thailand thing. I was on the board of a condo association back in the USA, and there was very little interest from fellow owners. If it weren't for proxy votes signed over to the board, there would never have been a productive meeting. The owners basically said: Take care of the building, we're not getting involved.

Wow, I'm surprised.

But I suppose at least those US owners have some real and enforced laws protecting them, and some real accountants doing the books, and so they are less worried.

[ripley]

"Delight" originally proposed doubling the CAM fees. I thought he was bonkers until he explained the science behind it! Must be one helluva chess player, that guy! Sadly, I am not. Also, I don't want to appear to be aligned with the current administration (just in case anyone is paying attention!)

Our Condo gets "Special Funds" voted in at the EGM or "second call" AGM where only a percentage of Owners present is required. They've been doing this on an annual basis with one excuse and another. The idea is generally to load the 2nd call w/ their own people - these mtngs being poorly attended. This year there are two rumours - one that a 10,000,000 baht Special Fund was voted in - the other that a CAM fee increase was voted in. The CAM fee increase would be illegal, but someone wrote in to me that they'd received a notice informing them of it. I asked whether he'd contacted the Land Office or taken any action & the reply was that since he had units in another Condo, he couldn't be bothered anymore with ours after years of fruitless effort. I'm not in Thailand and all my inquiries meet with silence so guess I'll have to wait until my return to find out the truth. Odd, isn't it??

A few years ago another of our Committees attempted to push thru a CAM fee increase & were promptly hauled up the the Land Office and forced to retract.

Friends living in a Co-op in N.Y. finally had to sell out at a firesale price because life had become unbearable. They had taken on a lot of the administrative as well as physical work on the place (someone had to do it) & it didn't take long for the other owners to take their efforts for granted. They became "Mummy & Daddy" for a group of layabouts who began to ignore maintenance issues, renege on payments and complain to them about anything that went wrong in the building!

In my experience, that's typical. One person takes responsibility and attendant flack, the rest can hardly be bothered to sign a petition. For the last AGM, when I found that my proxy holder couldn't attend, I had to decide whether to fly out to Thailand for the purpose. I decided, given the lack of interest, effort and participation from other Owners I'd at least save myself the money on airfare.

Edited April 2, 2015 by ripley

[ripley]

I thought you might like to know the end of the story, as contained in the AGM minutes I received. The Committe asked for and got millions of additional Baht in "special Funds". Because they said that restoring our reception services would cost an additional 750,000 per year, the Owners present decided against doing it without any argument. For the rest, when the Owners were asked whether they had any additional issues to be discussed in the meeting, not one person came forward. This despite all the gritching and moaning previous to the meeting.

I do believe this is the last time I try to "goose" and inform the owners to my own effort, expense and subsequent harassment.

[ripley]

P.S. - The PABX may be restored sometime "if....and when". Meaning, the building remains without house phones for the forseeable future.

Go figure.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ripley

[Delight]

. For the rest, when the Owners were asked whether they had any additional issues to be discussed in the meeting, not one person came forward. This despite all the gritching and moaning previous to the meeting.

I do believe this is the last time I try to "goose" and inform the owners to my own effort, expense and subsequent harassment.

Did You 'Come Forward ' with' well thought thru and well presented objections'?

[KittenKong]

P.S. - The PABX may be restored sometime "if....and when". Meaning, the building remains without house phones for the forseeable future.

With special fees amounting to 44MB which you mentioned earlier, I wonder what on earth they spend all that money on?

As for PABXs, does anyone really still use a landline phone? I have a landline in my unit for my ADSL but I certainly dont need a landline phone, and indeed I dont have one. Our building doesnt have a PABX either: the wires come in and go directly to the units that want them.

And would replacing a PABX really cost so much? I doubt it.

I've discovered in my time on committees here that quotes for technical items are often much higher than they should be, or contain many totally unnecessary items. No one in my building management would have a clue whether a particular item in a technical quote is necessary, and neither would anyone on the committee apart from me.

We had a quote for 3km of cable when the installation of a few switches would do the same job at a tenth of the cost. When I pointed this out to the company that supplied the quote they just said "oh yes" and seemed surprised that anyone had actually understood the quote at all, or had bothered to examine it. Our management company didnt have the faintest idea what the quote was about.

[ripley]

. For the rest, when the Owners were asked whether they had any additional issues to be discussed in the meeting, not one person came forward. This despite all the gritching and moaning previous to the meeting.

I do believe this is the last time I try to "goose" and inform the owners to my own effort, expense and subsequent harassment.

Did You 'Come Forward ' with' well thought thru and well presented objections'?

Oh yeah! Crystal clear, courteous and absolutely logical. Don't know how the ideas could have been presented with greater care. The whole point of my effort was: To extract an explanation from the Administration for what they were doing. (They would not commit to any answer except to say that they were entitled to do what they were doing.) Then to inform the Owners about the questions asked, the responses received and what the issues were as I saw them. When that was done, I felt my job was done and left the Owners to ponder the questions and decide what was important to them. It seems their perception of what is important differs from mine..

Mind you, I could only send the info to people on my mailing list which is limited - but word gets around. Before I left Thailand, people I spoke with were outraged. Some had even gone to the Office to complain - often loudly. I have no idea why they failed to act in their own interests. Certainly both my interests as an Owner and my investment have been damaged by this Administration.

[ripley]

P.S. - The PABX may be restored sometime "if....and when". Meaning, the building remains without house phones for the forseeable future.

With special fees amounting to 44MB which you mentioned earlier, I wonder what on earth they spend all that money on?

As for PABXs, does anyone really still use a landline phone? I have a landline in my unit for my ADSL but I certainly dont need a landline phone, and indeed I dont have one. Our building doesnt have a PABX either: the wires come in and go directly to the units that want them.

And would replacing a PABX really cost so much? I doubt it.

I've discovered in my time on committees here that quotes for technical items are often much higher than they should be, or contain many totally unnecessary items. No one in my building management would have a clue whether a particular item in a technical quote is necessary, and neither would anyone on the committee apart from me.

We had a quote for 3km of cable when the installation of a few switches would do the same job at a tenth of the cost. When I pointed this out to the company that supplied the quote they just said "oh yes" and seemed surprised that anyone had actually understood the quote at all, or had bothered to examine it. Our management company didnt have the faintest idea what the quote was about.

Closer now to 60MB. We're paying more and getting less. No 24hr reception and no in-house phone. Both of these services were linked and worked well for us all. Without them - Pretty perilous in an emergency. A real pain when you have to slope down to the first floor to escort each visitor to your unit.

Of course the PABX can be repaired. And it's insured. But not a whisper about what happened to the insurance pay-out.

Without the Reception services, an in-house phone isn't all that essential I suppose. It makes it easier to communicate with other owners and to conduct business rather than slogging down to the office each time. But, in an emergency, who ya gonna call?? You'd better make sure your mobile is charged and learn to speak Thai (the only language the guards on duty understand).

[KittenKong]

I cant imagine what's happening there. That budget is very big and in our building I would expect to get a gold-plated swimming pool in return for it.

It sounds like someone in your management/committee/JPM must be skimming off a lot of money. With that size of budget the temptation to steal would be very high.

[ripley]

I may have given the wrong impression. The 60M-plus in Special Funds has not been for just one year. 44 Million was levied a few years ago for "Renovations and Legal Costs". After that we were gouged for 6 M. then 10M last year and 10M this year.

The renovations were never completed, tho we did get a few of the improvements promised, we were asked for more funds to do others which the 44M. was to have covered. Accounting that I've seen shows that in many case we have been obscenely over-charged. We never have had a full and detailed accounting for the original 44 M. let alone the additional 20-plus million.

In defence of the Special Funds, we did get new elevators tho they were poorly selected and we're now having some expensive problems. Also, our hallways were re-tiled and re-painted.

Instead, as I've said, services and priveleges have been cut down to the bone. In fact, in too many ways we're worse off after having paid out all of this money than we were before. Logic says that there's "dirty work (or extreme incompetence) at the crossroads" In many ways, the building is far more uncomfortable and Owner-unfriendly than before the Special Funds were taken.

Not a thing to be done about it in the circumstances. If an owner refuses to pay into the Special Funds, s/he loses priveleges and access to common areas and services.

Dammit.

[KittenKong]

You can pretty well guarantee that some people in your management/committee/JPM have been getting huge kick-backs from those contracts.

I would never trust anyone involved in building management in Thailand. All I've ever seen since being on a committee here is lies, cheating, incompetence and self-interest. Only the proportions vary.

[ripley]

No doubt about it. In fact, they've broken the law in at least way that should get Land Office attention. And there is indisputable proof. How I'd love to bring these smug guys to book. They really believe that if they present a stone wall to protests they can get away with anything. And they're right thus far, which is very annoying.

Incidentally, the Committee Members are a very international group - only one Thai person. Word to the wise: Nationality is no guarantee of anything. Crooks and petty tyrants come in all stripes and colours.Doesn't seem to matter how decent a person seems, a little power and temptation turns them into someone you can no longer recognize. Of course, the Committee & JPM work with a Thai Management Co. (at great expense to the owners) who support and encourage their arrogance and I'm sure are raking in bucks on the side. So easy to do if you know how.

You can learn a lot about life by observing the workings of a Condominium. A lot of things you'd be happier not knowing about. But in many ways it's the world in microcosm.