New Thai constitution grants too much power to the Senate

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE
New constitution grants too much power to the Senate
KRIS BHROMSUTHI

BANGKOK: -- A PARTICIPANT at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand's forum on "The Future of Thai Politics" last week raised an important point - that the all-appointed Senate under the new charter will have far too much influence.

The participant also noted that this is something National Reform Council (NRC) members remember when scrutinising the charter provisions, and Thai citizens should keep in mind when voting in a referendum.

Capacity to influence the choice of Cabinet members is one of many powers the new Senate will have. The charter's Provision 132 will give senators the power to dig into the background of Cabinet candidates and publicise their findings.

This implies that the Senate can tell the prime minister exactly which individuals they deem eligible, or not, for a minister's post, and possibly refuse to cooperate during legislative procedures if the PM ignores their "recommendations".

The notion that appointed senators have the authority to scrutinise and publicise ministerial candidates' profiles may seem absurd, but in reality it could manifest into something worse.

With this power in their hands, the Senate could force the prime minister to the negotiating table, and allow senators to handpick preferred candidates for certain ministerial seats in exchange for approving the PM's preferred nominees.

Obviously there will be a lot of wheeling and dealing behind the scenes before a cabinet satisfactory to both parties can be formed. But this wheeling and dealing can be a bit worrying, because not only will it damage the effectiveness of an elected government, it would also shift significant executive power to the privileged few from the upper-middle class and the elite who form the Senate.

As per the new charter, senators will be nominated from "five social groups", which could include former premiers, former House speakers, former Supreme Court presidents, former ministry permanent secretaries, former generals or supreme commanders, presidents of different professional associations or organisations, and academics. Nearly every member of these social groups hail from the upper-middle class based mainly in the capital.

Clearly, the framework to select the Senate does not connect in any way to the grassroots in rural Thailand because, as the charter drafters argue, senators cannot have the same electoral canvassers and support base as MPs in the House of Representatives.

The new charter will also give the Senate the power to propose bills.

With this, new senators will be able to negotiate with MPs, forcing them into "give-and-take" deals. Hence, not only will the new Senate have the power to influence the selection of ministers, it will also have the power to pursue its own legislative agenda.

Also, as all senators will be appointed from the pool of society's power players, they will have no fear of playing a game of legislative stalemate, in which they can force the PM to dissolve parliament. After all, "appointed" senators have very little to lose because unlike lower House MPs, they will have invested nothing in terms of energy, effort or funds on wooing voters.

An appointed Senate under the new charter will have an upper hand both in the executive branch as well as the Lower House - a point that needs to be closely reviewed by all stakeholders especially the NRC and the public.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/New-constitution-grants-too-much-power-to-the-Sena-30256159.html

-- The Nation 2015-03-17

[Your Thainess]

Gee, you think?

One would suspect that Thailand was run by a bunch of women, because they can't farking make up their minds.

[Just1Voice]

Gee, you think?

One would suspect that Thailand was run by a bunch of women, because they can't farking make up their minds.

Actually, knowing Thai women as I do, I think a group of educated, and even semi-educated Thai women, just might do a better job than the clowns in charge now.

[HappyinNE]

Gee, you think?

One would suspect that Thailand was run by a bunch of women, because they can't farking make up their minds.

Actually, knowing Thai women as I do, I think a group of educated, and even semi-educated Thai women, just might do a better job than the clowns in charge now.

Strongly agree except the word just should be dropped.

[FangFerang]

No surprises here -- it formalizes Political Coups. It fossilizes power. It marginalizes the poor. I makes a 2/3 majority necessary to change the Charter -- with all senators appointed and (surprise) undoubtedly refusing to change the charter that gave them appointed full-time jobs.

Mission Accomplished!

[robblok]

I see no problem here, I mean what is wrong with demanding politicians that are not tainted by corruption and so on and that have qualifications.

[smutcakes]

I see no problem here, I mean what is wrong with demanding politicians that are not tainted by corruption and so on and that have qualifications.

If you cannot see the potential issue with giving 200 appointed persons huge powers over the Government then you are either being willfully blinkered, or you are just plain thick.

[robblok]

I see no problem here, I mean what is wrong with demanding politicians that are not tainted by corruption and so on and that have qualifications.

If you cannot see the potential issue with giving 200 appointed persons huge powers over the Government then you are either being willfully blinkered, or you are just plain thick.

Tell me please what is wrong to check if someone has the capabilities for a function and if they are corrupt or tainted ?

[smutcakes]

I see no problem here, I mean what is wrong with demanding politicians that are not tainted by corruption and so on and that have qualifications.

If you cannot see the potential issue with giving 200 appointed persons huge powers over the Government then you are either being willfully blinkered, or you are just plain thick.

Tell me please what is wrong to check if someone has the capabilities for a function and if they are corrupt or tainted ?

The article tells you all you need to know if you have read it.

On the face of it, scrutinizing candidates is good, but you, I and anyone else knows that in Thailand, everything is politicized. Who will scrutinize those being appointed to the Senate?

[Asiantravel]

I would have been considerably more surprised if we hadn't arrived at this situation i.e as soon as it became very apparent what is really important to this government

[smutcakes]

The senate will be made up of persons including "former Supreme Court presidents, former ministry permanent secretaries, former generals or supreme commanders", because they are all well known for their morals, ethics and non-corruptible behavior..... Thank God we have them overseeing MP's

[robblok]

I see no problem here, I mean what is wrong with demanding politicians that are not tainted by corruption and so on and that have qualifications.

If you cannot see the potential issue with giving 200 appointed persons huge powers over the Government then you are either being willfully blinkered, or you are just plain thick.

Tell me please what is wrong to check if someone has the capabilities for a function and if they are corrupt or tainted ?

The article tells you all you need to know if you have read it.

On the face of it, scrutinizing candidates is good, but you, I and anyone else knows that in Thailand, everything is politicized. Who will scrutinize those being appointed to the Senate?

So you admit scrutinizing is good.. so I don't see the problem. Guess your afraid that your friend Charlem for instance would not be allowed as he is an alcoholic who had a dubious role in the case where his son was up for murder.

As for politicize.. do you think the PTP will do anything else with the people they appoint on certain posts ? I think we will just have to accept it and seeing the PTP will do it this will balance it out.

[CWMcMurray]

Think oversight and confirmation hearings for ministers is a good thing...

Don't have any problem with laws being proposed by Senate...

Presumably laws can also be proposed by House as well.. .. And if the house and Senate bills don't match, then likely a joint/house & senate committee to try and compromise and issue bills that both can agree to..

The above sounds similar to US system ... No problem their...

The 10 mil. $ question for me is who has the power to nominate the Senetors?

Are they some committee? If so, how does one become a committee member?

How long does some one remain on this Committee?

What types of checks and balances are in place to prevent corruption or any abuse of power by these appointment committees ?

Edited March 17, 2015 by CWMcMurray

[smutcakes]

So you admit scrutinizing is good.. so I don't see the problem. Guess your afraid that your friend Charlem for instance would not be allowed as he is an alcoholic who had a dubious role in the case where his son was up for murder.

As for politicize.. do you think the PTP will do anything else with the people they appoint on certain posts ? I think we will just have to accept it and seeing the PTP will do it this will balance it out.

What are you talking about? Balancing out what? PTP appointing who to what posts? you are just waffling.

The simple fact is that having a Senate appointed by certain people, who like everyone have vested interests, is a sure way to ensure that the political turmoil will continue.

It all goes back to why some people, ie those appointing people are for some reason seemingly more special and more important than other Thai;s. This for me is the reason that despite all its faults elected officials is the way to go. At least that way people can choose who they are being shafted by, other than some appointed people who for some reason are deemed more important and morally strong than everyone else.

[robblok]

So you admit scrutinizing is good.. so I don't see the problem. Guess your afraid that your friend Charlem for instance would not be allowed as he is an alcoholic who had a dubious role in the case where his son was up for murder.

As for politicize.. do you think the PTP will do anything else with the people they appoint on certain posts ? I think we will just have to accept it and seeing the PTP will do it this will balance it out.

What are you talking about? Balancing out what? PTP appointing who to what posts? you are just waffling.

The simple fact is that having a Senate appointed by certain people, who like everyone have vested interests, is a sure way to ensure that the political turmoil will continue.

It all goes back to why some people, ie those appointing people are for some reason seemingly more special and more important than other Thai;s. This for me is the reason that despite all its faults elected officials is the way to go. At least that way people can choose who they are being shafted by, other than some appointed people who for some reason are deemed more important and morally strong than everyone else.

I am not waffling.. your just red sighted. PTP has put police officers where they wanted it appointed people in power that they wanted. They have done it all the time they even had a clone PM. So they do what they want, now the senate can check MP's and such that limits their power a bit.

On one side we got the PTP using their bias in putting people in places of power and on the other hand we got the senate who can destroy some of the power of the PTP by scrutinizing them and ask for qualifications (of PM's) so I dont see this as a problem. Keeps things in balance else we end up with all the power at the PTP.

[smutcakes]

I am not waffling.. your just red sighted. PTP has put police officers where they wanted it appointed people in power that they wanted. They have done it all the time they even had a clone PM. So they do what they want, now the senate can check MP's and such that limits their power a bit.

On one side we got the PTP using their bias in putting people in places of power and on the other hand we got the senate who can destroy some of the power of the PTP by scrutinizing them and ask for qualifications (of PM's) so I dont see this as a problem. Keeps things in balance else we end up with all the power at the PTP.

Other than the obvious fact that any Govt is elected by people to run the country- the Senate is not, they are appointed by self appointed people that represent no one but their own interests.

What qualifications does a PM need? I wonder what those army leaders qualifications for being on the Senate is?

Your point about PTP putting 'police officers' in power is stupid. Every Govt including this one has done exactly the same thing.

[cloudhopper]

Sounds about as esoteric,undemocratic and dysfunctional as the House of Lords in the UK with their hereditary and appointed "peers".

[robblok]

I am not waffling.. your just red sighted. PTP has put police officers where they wanted it appointed people in power that they wanted. They have done it all the time they even had a clone PM. So they do what they want, now the senate can check MP's and such that limits their power a bit.

On one side we got the PTP using their bias in putting people in places of power and on the other hand we got the senate who can destroy some of the power of the PTP by scrutinizing them and ask for qualifications (of PM's) so I dont see this as a problem. Keeps things in balance else we end up with all the power at the PTP.

Other than the obvious fact that any Govt is elected by people to run the country- the Senate is not, they are appointed by self appointed people that represent no one but their own interests.

What qualifications does a PM need? I wonder what those army leaders qualifications for being on the Senate is?

Your point about PTP putting 'police officers' in power is stupid. Every Govt including this one has done exactly the same thing.

Yes they have.. it shows all sides do this. So now to have some of the opposite side in the senate to balance this out a bit so not all power goes to one site. Win win.

Reds want full domination of it and then they will be as corrupt as the last government not listening and threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them (remember the rice program where the people who came with rotting rice were threatened with jail time). Now it stays far more balanced as they can't control it all.

[smutcakes]

Yes they have.. it shows all sides do this. So now to have some of the opposite side in the senate to balance this out a bit so not all power goes to one site. Win win.

Reds want full domination of it and then they will be as corrupt as the last government not listening and threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them (remember the rice program where the people who came with rotting rice were threatened with jail time). Now it stays far more balanced as they can't control it all.

Lets agree to disagree.....appointing a senate which is likely to be directly in conflict to an elected Government, is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. You are basically admitting the whole 'reform' is about reducing the power of the most popular party in Thailand, and having appointed people with more power. If you think that will wash and be sustainable then we disagree again.

Your bit in bold is pure hyperbole. Please give me one or two example of threatening lawsuits or jail time for anyone disagreeing with the rice scheme? It should be easy given they were 'threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them"

[Daniel Ingalls]

Gathering from what I've read, The PM has the right to choose who he wishes to be a cabinet head, but the Senators must approve The PM choices. So behind closed doors the PM will haggle with the Senators what they want and will get in exchange for approving the cabinet post the PM wanted. And this my friends is how the PM

gets into trouble cutting deals off the record, then its embedded in legislation and approved. Then months later, he is accused of corruption which in fact was done by the Senators in their ways and means of hidden agendas the PM approved. Thats about it in a nut shell.

[robblok]

Yes they have.. it shows all sides do this. So now to have some of the opposite side in the senate to balance this out a bit so not all power goes to one site. Win win.

Reds want full domination of it and then they will be as corrupt as the last government not listening and threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them (remember the rice program where the people who came with rotting rice were threatened with jail time). Now it stays far more balanced as they can't control it all.

Lets agree to disagree.....appointing a senate which is likely to be directly in conflict to an elected Government, is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. You are basically admitting the whole 'reform' is about reducing the power of the most popular party in Thailand, and having appointed people with more power. If you think that will wash and be sustainable then we disagree again.

Your bit in bold is pure hyperbole. Please give me one or two example of threatening lawsuits or jail time for anyone disagreeing with the rice scheme? It should be easy given they were 'threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them"

There was a article about the democrats taking rotting rice in parliament to show there was rotting rice, they then were threatened to be sued for theft, and the lady exposing the scam was also threatened. I can dig both up will cost considerable effort as its a while back and I will need help from other members. If I were to do so and I can these articles will you make a formal apology then ?

Of course its about reducing the power of the government.. we seen what they did last time and their regards for the law.

- voting for others while it was not allowed (caught on tape and denied)

- Sending people away saying voting will be later and then still voting

- Having a convinced criminal lead by proxy

- Corrupt G2G deals

- Threatening anyone who said anything bad about the rice program

- Trying to get leader back and stopping prosecution on 25.000 corruption cases

- Supporting terrorist (no attackers were ever found until the army stepped in so one can conclude they were protected by the Ptp and police, also remember high ranking members of the PTP were at the meeting were they cheered (not those PTP guys) about the deaths of children.

- NO transparency for the rice program.. there was no loss.. and now 700 billion

- nepotism. look at all Thaksin family in power while they have no skills. (admittedly also nepotism in the Junta but if anyone bothers to check you can see I don't defend it there and even condemn it.

So yes I am for making sure these idiots will never again have too much power.

Edited March 17, 2015 by robblok

[Lorn]

Yes they have.. it shows all sides do this. So now to have some of the opposite side in the senate to balance this out a bit so not all power goes to one site. Win win.

Reds want full domination of it and then they will be as corrupt as the last government not listening and threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them (remember the rice program where the people who came with rotting rice were threatened with jail time). Now it stays far more balanced as they can't control it all.

Lets agree to disagree.....appointing a senate which is likely to be directly in conflict to an elected Government, is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. You are basically admitting the whole 'reform' is about reducing the power of the most popular party in Thailand, and having appointed people with more power. If you think that will wash and be sustainable then we disagree again.

Your bit in bold is pure hyperbole. Please give me one or two example of threatening lawsuits or jail time for anyone disagreeing with the rice scheme? It should be easy given they were 'threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them"

There was a article about the democrats taking rotting rice in parliament to show there was rotting rice, they then were threatened to be sued for theft, and the lady exposing the scam was also threatened. I can dig both up will cost considerable effort as its a while back and I will need help from other members. If I were to do so and I can these articles will you make a formal apology then ?

Of course its about reducing the power of the government.. we seen what they did last time and their regards for the law.

- voting for others while it was not allowed (caught on tape and denied)

- Sending people away saying voting will be later and then still voting

- Having a convinced criminal lead by proxy

- Corrupt G2G deals

- Threatening anyone who said anything bad about the rice program

- Trying to get leader back and stopping prosecution on 25.000 corruption cases

- Supporting terrorist (no attackers were ever found until the army stepped in so one can conclude they were protected by the Ptp and police, also remember high ranking members of the PTP were at the meeting were they cheered (not those PTP guys) about the deaths of children.

- NO transparency for the rice program.. there was no loss.. and now 700 billion

- nepotism. look at all Thaksin family in power while they have no skills. (admittedly also nepotism in the Junta but if anyone bothers to check you can see I don't defend it there and even condemn it.

So yes I am for making sure these idiots will never again have too much power.

You think having two extremely corrupt parties fighting against each other is going to make things better? More likely it will mean deals being struck so that twice as many hands are in the cookie jar and ensuring no one gets exposed for wrong doing due to all these secret deals. Lose-lose for the people.

[lewy67]

It's more about the theft of power from the voting public than anything else. An appointed senate should never have the power to override what the electorate has voted for. An appointed senate has to be subservient to the democratic chamber otherwise the system is anti -democratic. It seems the whole premise of this charter is an anti-democratic theft of power from the people / voters in favour of placing power in the hands of the few, 'good people,' who are the elite.

[robblok]

Yes they have.. it shows all sides do this. So now to have some of the opposite side in the senate to balance this out a bit so not all power goes to one site. Win win.

Reds want full domination of it and then they will be as corrupt as the last government not listening and threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them (remember the rice program where the people who came with rotting rice were threatened with jail time). Now it stays far more balanced as they can't control it all.

Lets agree to disagree.....appointing a senate which is likely to be directly in conflict to an elected Government, is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. You are basically admitting the whole 'reform' is about reducing the power of the most popular party in Thailand, and having appointed people with more power. If you think that will wash and be sustainable then we disagree again.

Your bit in bold is pure hyperbole. Please give me one or two example of threatening lawsuits or jail time for anyone disagreeing with the rice scheme? It should be easy given they were 'threatening legal suits for anyone that disagrees with them"

There was a article about the democrats taking rotting rice in parliament to show there was rotting rice, they then were threatened to be sued for theft, and the lady exposing the scam was also threatened. I can dig both up will cost considerable effort as its a while back and I will need help from other members. If I were to do so and I can these articles will you make a formal apology then ?

Of course its about reducing the power of the government.. we seen what they did last time and their regards for the law.

- voting for others while it was not allowed (caught on tape and denied)

- Sending people away saying voting will be later and then still voting

- Having a convinced criminal lead by proxy

- Corrupt G2G deals

- Threatening anyone who said anything bad about the rice program

- Trying to get leader back and stopping prosecution on 25.000 corruption cases

- Supporting terrorist (no attackers were ever found until the army stepped in so one can conclude they were protected by the Ptp and police, also remember high ranking members of the PTP were at the meeting were they cheered (not those PTP guys) about the deaths of children.

- NO transparency for the rice program.. there was no loss.. and now 700 billion

- nepotism. look at all Thaksin family in power while they have no skills. (admittedly also nepotism in the Junta but if anyone bothers to check you can see I don't defend it there and even condemn it.

So yes I am for making sure these idiots will never again have too much power.

You think having two extremely corrupt parties fighting against each other is going to make things better? More likely it will mean deals being struck so that twice as many hands are in the cookie jar and ensuring no one gets exposed for wrong doing due to all these secret deals. Lose-lose for the people.

I think they keep each-other in check.

[phoenixdoglover]

Someone suggested the proposed system resembles the US. The only thing resembling the US is that there is a government body called the "Senate". Everything else is different.

I predict (and so have others) the fully "appointed" Senate will be unacceptable and a major issue if implemented. Many flaws have been identified to date. The above article just makes the flaws more obvious.

And someone else mentioned a "referendum". I believe the current PM has announced that the decision whether to have a referendum has not been made. If a referendum is not held, that would pretty much guarantee an "illegitimate" label for the new Charter in the eyes of the western world. And probably for a significant segment of the Thai population as well, notwithstanding whatever the very happy opinion polls say.

Edited March 17, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[smutcakes]

Someone suggested the proposed system resembles the US. The only thing resembling the US is that there is a government body called the "Senate". Everything else is different.

I predict (and so have others) the fully "nominated" Senate will be unacceptable and a major issue if implemented. Many flaws have been identified to date. The above article just makes the flaws more obvious.

And someone else mentioned a "referendum". I believe the current PM has announced that the decision whether to have a referendum has not been made. If a referendum is not held, that would pretty much guarantee an "illegitimate" label for the new Charter in the eyes of the western world. And probably for a significant segment of the Thai population as well, notwithstanding whatever the very happy opinion polls say.

Other than it being symbolic, a referendum is largely pointless. If there is simply a yes or no choice, and the only choice is the one drafted constitution, it is fairly weird because if its no, then what then? The NCPO can just continue under the interim one? choose anyone they please?, perhaps if it is voted no, that would mean a non elected MP is required?

I just think this Senate issue is going to cause all sorts of problems.

[whatawonderfulday]

Gee, you think?

One would suspect that Thailand was run by a bunch of women, because they can't farking make up their minds.

Actually, knowing Thai women as I do, I think a group of educated, and even semi-educated Thai women, just might do a better job than the clowns in charge now.

Actually any group of Thai women, from the completely illiterate, mentally unstable though to the educated could govern better then then the gun toting crowd now.

[JAG]

Sounds about as esoteric,undemocratic and dysfunctional as the House of Lords in the UK with their hereditary and appointed "peers".

Perhaps, but the House of Lords does not, at the end of the day, have the power to veto the decisions of the elected house, nor does it have rhe power to refuse appointments made by the lower (elected) house. That is a very big difference

[Srikcir]

An unelected senate with an unelected PM and cabinet handpicked by the senate having powers that can override and usurp elected officials' agenda.

How is this reform?

This draft charter gets more ludicrous each day as the NCPO clones struggle to check any provision that would give elected officials and their electorate any sense of political power. Combined with all the oversight from independent organizations (now 8?) at every level of government throughout the nation, Thai people will NEVER realize their soverneignty.

That may be assuring to the military and its elitist associates, but that will not quell national conflict in the long run. In fact passage of this draft charter without significant electorate approval (<70%?) may trigger a quicker, larger, and stronger reaction than all of the previous coup protests. Maybe that undesirable process is necessary to shake the foundations of feudal Thailand just as the Magna Carta did with establishing a constitutional monarchy.

Democracy is not a cheap parlor trick nor a comfortable ideology. It succeeds best when the highest price is paid for its foundations. That price is personal sacrifice and determination for the common good of 60 million Thais that transcends the singular power of the exclusive military elitists. I hope Thailand can become the land of an Asian Magna Carta.

[WhizBang]

Gee, you think?

One would suspect that Thailand was run by a bunch of women, because they can't farking make up their minds.

Actually, knowing Thai women as I do, I think a group of educated, and even semi-educated Thai women, just might do a better job than the clowns in charge now.

On the other hand, I know some Thai women who are completely irresponsible.