Claims of torture over Bangkok court attack materialise

[tbthailand]

The Junta now has a history of lying to the people on such matters. Now they turn to martial law to shut up those who want the people to know what is going on behind the scenes.

And your proof is where?

Oh yes, you haven't got any, just an opinion that happens to support your political bias.

One side uses martial law, the other side uses defamation law to shut people up. Same same but different.

I have to wonder how much information you have about Thailand... the Thai military has decades and decades of history where they have engaged in torture...

Even since the 'intervention' there have been many cases of alleged torture. This is SOP for the military.

Ever since the coup we've heard many cases of alleged torture especially on open social media outlets, but nothing has emerged in details. Now and here we have 'claims materialise', but no more. The lady who fled the country and may or may not have applied for political asylum somewhere seems awfully quiet.

If we were to believe in the modern times of facebook and other nonsense I would still be digging at Rayong, I fear.

... but nothing has emerged in details.

you've not been paying attention.

[tbthailand]

i bet the Junta will torture people who say the Junta torture people to make them say they don't torture...or soemthing like that

already has happened...

remember the detainee in June who was released after nearly a month in custody? Trotted out for the cameras with her boyfriend saying that she was "happier than words could tell"... ??

Fled the country and seems awfully quiet at the moment. Did she apply for Political Asylum and have to remain silent till her application has been approved?

BTW easy to tell, but any real proof as acceptable in court (in Thailand or outside) seems sadly lacking.

So, claims have materialised. Let's wait for a bit more than just claims.

Fled the country and seems awfully quiet at the moment. Did she apply for Political Asylum and have to remain silent till her application has been approved?

she has already told her story in detail and in a video interview.

I guess you would want her to try to grab headlines once a month like Thaksin does??

And seriously, the point about keeping silent until the asylum application is approved? Which thin air did you pull that out of?

BTW easy to tell, but any real proof as acceptable in court (in Thailand or outside) seems sadly lacking.

last time I check, eye-witness, first-hand accounts were considered as acceptable in court. What is sadly lacking is any real possibility of people being held responsible.

So, claims have materialised. Let's wait for a bit more than just claims.

Pray tell, under the current conditions, what would qualify in your mind as more than just claims?

[tbthailand]

The Junta congratulated and rewarded police for obtaining confessions from accused in another case even tho it was tortured out of them.

More bloody lies and crap from the Junta just like we don't have political prisoners, now revealed they have around 1,000. What fool would believe a single word this Junta says. They are pissing on the country and saying it is raining, nothing to worry about.

... "Rubl"

Yes, young master TB, did you require my expert advise?

I think chooka suggests the Police may have been guilty (this time). No proof of that. All we have is 'claims materialising'.

BTW the CDC chap was talking about 700 or so political prisoners, but he didn't say how he came to the figure. Somehow I also doubt he will be able to. Furthermore keep in mind that the term 'political prisoner' seems to be used as casually as 'political crimes', or ;political motivated accusations'.

01:15AM, time to go sleep.

Good Night Youngster,

uncle rub'

the article stated in the other thread,

According to Paiboon, over 400 Yellowshirts and nearly 1,000 Redshirts have faced legal action of some sort for their role in protests.

which combined is double the number you mentioned. That number doesn't even touch on other issues like prisoners under or facing LM charges.

And I doubt that he's going to call you up and explain where the numbers come from, but you, on the other hand, might try to find other sources rather than to just insinuate that the numbers are bogus...

But even your number of 700 which dramatically mis-represents what was actually said would still qualify as "hundreds" of political prisoners : a fact which you managed to claim was untrue... even though you never thought it necessary to back up your statement in any way, shape, or form...

[Warpath]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

[whybother]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

"Pro Junta = pro corruption"

The junta is pro Thaksin???

[Pi Sek]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

This may be the case in the "real world" or wherever else you're from, but your post to me does not take into consideration that "TiT".

Here pro Junta means...

- pro torture you're not happy with the state of human rights under Thailand's false "democracy"

- anti democracy you're not happy with seeing democratic ideals raped by an autocratic government, despite that party being "democratically elected"

- anti freedom of speech you're not happy with the way that freedom of speech has been usurped and warped into a license to spread false rumours under Thailand's false democracy

- pro corruption you're not happy with elected governments seem to try and outdo each others' corruption records

- anti fair and just judiciary you're not happy with the way the judiciary branch is manipulated by the administrative and (to a lesser extent, but Peua Thai were trying to change that) executive branches

At least to me it does, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Democracy here has never existed, everyone in the know on both sides seem to agree on that. I'd rather have a Junta than a demagogic system where right wing fascism is misrepresented as "Democracy". At least there's no pretending.

[rubl]

The Junta congratulated and rewarded police for obtaining confessions from accused in another case even tho it was tortured out of them.

More bloody lies and crap from the Junta just like we don't have political prisoners, now revealed they have around 1,000. What fool would believe a single word this Junta says. They are pissing on the country and saying it is raining, nothing to worry about.

... "Rubl"

Yes, young master TB, did you require my expert advise?

I think chooka suggests the Police may have been guilty (this time). No proof of that. All we have is 'claims materialising'.

BTW the CDC chap was talking about 700 or so political prisoners, but he didn't say how he came to the figure. Somehow I also doubt he will be able to. Furthermore keep in mind that the term 'political prisoner' seems to be used as casually as 'political crimes', or ;political motivated accusations'.

01:15AM, time to go sleep.

Good Night Youngster,

uncle rub'

the article stated in the other thread,

According to Paiboon, over 400 Yellowshirts and nearly 1,000 Redshirts have faced legal action of some sort for their role in protests.

which combined is double the number you mentioned. That number doesn't even touch on other issues like prisoners under or facing LM charges.

And I doubt that he's going to call you up and explain where the numbers come from, but you, on the other hand, might try to find other sources rather than to just insinuate that the numbers are bogus...

But even your number of 700 which dramatically mis-represents what was actually said would still qualify as "hundreds" of political prisoners : a fact which you managed to claim was untrue... even though you never thought it necessary to back up your statement in any way, shape, or form...

Luckily I have some American friends, so I know you're not representative. you're just a hypocrite like we have them in many countries.

May I remind you that the US Army was in charge of prisons. May I remind you that with your generous use of the label 'political prisoners' all those guarded by US Army personal can and are labelled 'political prisoners'. May I remind you that there have been incidents with military guards taking 'liberties' with the prisoners and taping it? The US army may have only seldom been involved in such incidents, but then the US Government has this Intelligence Agency to do the dirty work.

Now may I suggest we drop the 'holier than thou' attitude, cut the crap and concentrate on the topic at hand?

Claims materialised. Photos which need lots of explanations as to what you see and how to interpret. 'Eye witness' accounts, like the many we had here in TVF, mostly from people who saw the clips.

Let's hope that these claims are rapidly proven or disproven, whatever the truth may be.

PS you may consider this a reply to your last three replies to my posts.

Edited March 21, 2015 by rubl

[cumgranosalum]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

rights are not "standard" they are universal

[Baerboxer]

Thailand must have the highest number of "confessions" in the world.

...........and the highest number of 'Human Right's' induced claims of people being tortured!!!

Wonder if the 2,500 extra judicial execution victims in the infamous "war on drugs" were tortured into confessing first; or just simply shot?

And whose watch was that on again?

The army was in control of the operation. Ever wonder, why Thaksin was cleared and why the allegations went nowhere?

If Thaksin was the guilty culprit you claim, why didn't the military junta that over threw him bring charges? Why couldn't Abhisit act? Why hasn't the current military regime opened the file? Surely, if he was a s guilty as you insists, what better way to get rid of him than to charge him? You know the answer, but you don't want to admit it. The country was in a state of apprehended insurrection by narco gangs who had corrupted the police, judiciary and government in the regions where the drug gangs were fought. Innocent people died as they do in any fight against narco criminal gangs, as we have seen in Mexico, Columbia, Panama etc.

Would you like to give us the links to where Thaksin was "cleared" ?

As to why charges were not brought, actions taken - ask yourself why extradition has never really been pushed, why so many leaders are out on bail and get away with breaching bail convictions etc etc.

How come many of the victims relatives complained local police were guilty of carrying out the murders?

Thaksin was PM - a noted megalomaniac and control freak. Are you suggesting he was not in control?

[whatawonderfulday]

Surprised by anyone should be surprised by this. A military dictator who has taken control of a country at gunpoint is hardly likely to consider the populations dislike of tortured confessions. Live by the sword, die by the sword so let us see what the situation is 3 years

Edited March 21, 2015 by whatawonderfulday

[tbthailand]

Yes, young master TB, did you require my expert advise?

I think chooka suggests the Police may have been guilty (this time). No proof of that. All we have is 'claims materialising'.

BTW the CDC chap was talking about 700 or so political prisoners, but he didn't say how he came to the figure. Somehow I also doubt he will be able to. Furthermore keep in mind that the term 'political prisoner' seems to be used as casually as 'political crimes', or ;political motivated accusations'.

01:15AM, time to go sleep.

Good Night Youngster,

uncle rub'

the article stated in the other thread,

According to Paiboon, over 400 Yellowshirts and nearly 1,000 Redshirts have faced legal action of some sort for their role in protests.

which combined is double the number you mentioned. That number doesn't even touch on other issues like prisoners under or facing LM charges.

And I doubt that he's going to call you up and explain where the numbers come from, but you, on the other hand, might try to find other sources rather than to just insinuate that the numbers are bogus...

But even your number of 700 which dramatically mis-represents what was actually said would still qualify as "hundreds" of political prisoners : a fact which you managed to claim was untrue... even though you never thought it necessary to back up your statement in any way, shape, or form...

Luckily I have some American friends, so I know you're not representative. you're just a hypocrite like we have them in many countries.

May I remind you that the US Army was in charge of prisons. May I remind you that with your generous use of the label 'political prisoners' all those guarded by US Army personal can and are labelled 'political prisoners'. May I remind you that there have been incidents with military guards taking 'liberties' with the prisoners and taping it? The US army may have only seldom been involved in such incidents, but then the US Government has this Intelligence Agency to do the dirty work.

Now may I suggest we drop the 'holier than thou' attitude, cut the crap and concentrate on the topic at hand?

Claims materialised. Photos which need lots of explanations as to what you see and how to interpret. 'Eye witness' accounts, like the many we had here in TVF, mostly from people who saw the clips.

Let's hope that these claims are rapidly proven or disproven, whatever the truth may be.

PS you may consider this a reply to your last three replies to my posts.

PS you may consider this a reply to your last three replies to my posts.

you don't reply to anything, you just troll.

your so-called reply doesn't address a single question posed. Not one.

I didn't expect you to answer any questions, you never do. You're one of the worst kind of trolls on this forum, Polite pretence, fascist viewpoint. by the way, talk about hypocrites, you have all the freedoms anyone can expect in the world today based on an accident of birthplace but you gladly support a military junta which denies the most basic rights to Thai people - including my family and kids, so please take your 'hypocrite' comment and stuff it.

I'll let heybruce play with you... he's already admitted to having a sense of humor that can support your foolishness.

[Warpath]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

"Pro Junta = pro corruption"

The junta is pro Thaksin???

Sure, Thaksin did not remain pure - this would be impossible when he was forced to operate in the swamp that is the system built by generations of corrupt Generals, however, it is abundantly clear that he was far less corrupt than those that preceded him and those unelected usurpers who followed him. The military has always had a monopoly on Thai corruption, Thaksin ended the monopoly for a period thus the coups.

Pro Junta = pro corruption is an undisputable fact.

[Warpath]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

This may be the case in the "real world" or wherever else you're from, but your post to me does not take into consideration that "TiT".

Here pro Junta means...

- pro torture you're not happy with the state of human rights under Thailand's false "democracy"

- anti democracy you're not happy with seeing democratic ideals raped by an autocratic government, despite that party being "democratically elected"

- anti freedom of speech you're not happy with the way that freedom of speech has been usurped and warped into a license to spread false rumours under Thailand's false democracy

- pro corruption you're not happy with elected governments seem to try and outdo each others' corruption records

- anti fair and just judiciary you're not happy with the way the judiciary branch is manipulated by the administrative and (to a lesser extent, but Peua Thai were trying to change that) executive branches

At least to me it does, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Democracy here has never existed, everyone in the know on both sides seem to agree on that. I'd rather have a Junta than a demagogic system where right wing fascism is misrepresented as "Democracy". At least there's no pretending.

PTP are right wing fascists?

Wrong and wrong.

If anything PTP are left wing socialists.

I doubt you understand what democracy means, if you did you wouldn't post such nonsense.

[Pi Sek]

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

This may be the case in the "real world" or wherever else you're from, but your post to me does not take into consideration that "TiT".

Here pro Junta means...

- pro torture you're not happy with the state of human rights under Thailand's false "democracy"

- anti democracy you're not happy with seeing democratic ideals raped by an autocratic government, despite that party being "democratically elected"

- anti freedom of speech you're not happy with the way that freedom of speech has been usurped and warped into a license to spread false rumours under Thailand's false democracy

- pro corruption you're not happy with elected governments seem to try and outdo each others' corruption records

- anti fair and just judiciary you're not happy with the way the judiciary branch is manipulated by the administrative and (to a lesser extent, but Peua Thai were trying to change that) executive branches

At least to me it does, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Democracy here has never existed, everyone in the know on both sides seem to agree on that. I'd rather have a Junta than a demagogic system where right wing fascism is misrepresented as "Democracy". At least there's no pretending.

PTP are right wing fascists?

Wrong and wrong.

If anything PTP are left wing socialists.

I doubt you understand what democracy means, if you did you wouldn't post such nonsense.

Yes, you read it right... Peua Thai are right wing fascists. But then, so is every other group in the Thai political playground to a degree, including those who feel the need to pull out belittling personal comments like you tried to do just then.

...edit to add... I intentionally didn't mention Peua Thai above - that was you. But all of Thailand's elected governments have been corrupt, warped democratic ideals, stifled free speech... including the last Democrat-led coalition after it was democratically elected (more evidence that we're not in a democracy - we're in a constitutional monarchy) - in 2008.

I can give hundreds of examples of Peua Thai's right wing fascism, and I suspect that if you took off your Peua Thai football shirt you may be able to too. I can also give hundreds of examples from the various other recent governments.

I think I understand democracy quite well, at least to the Bachelor of Arts level. In the "Thai" scheme of things, I can be quite concise: an autocracy, democratically elected or otherwise, is not a democracy... do you disagree? Would you disagree that all governments in Thailand's history have been autocratic? Do you think that constitutional monarchies like the UK or Thailand, or constitutional republics like the US (and, I suspect what some see as the future of "Lanna Nation") are democracies? If the answer to either of these is yes, then I'm afraid you may have to look up democracy for yourself.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Pi Sek

[than]

PT UDD just regroup leftist, demagogue, fascist, anti-monarchist, terrorist, anti-democrat linking by one thing : Taksin money, for this, these people don't believe in democracy

Now I want to see their evidence for claim abuse by authorities.... but in this sensitive case army and police are prepared strong evidence for tackled this new red shirt lucubration !

[Warpath]

Pro Junta = pro torture

Pro Junta = anti democracy

Pro Junta = anti freedom of speech

Pro Junta = anti freedom of association

Pro Junta = pro corruption

Pro Junta = anti fair and just judiciary

On every count, pro Junta is just plain bad

This may be the case in the "real world" or wherever else you're from, but your post to me does not take into consideration that "TiT".

Here pro Junta means...

- pro torture you're not happy with the state of human rights under Thailand's false "democracy"

- anti democracy you're not happy with seeing democratic ideals raped by an autocratic government, despite that party being "democratically elected"

- anti freedom of speech you're not happy with the way that freedom of speech has been usurped and warped into a license to spread false rumours under Thailand's false democracy

- pro corruption you're not happy with elected governments seem to try and outdo each others' corruption records

- anti fair and just judiciary you're not happy with the way the judiciary branch is manipulated by the administrative and (to a lesser extent, but Peua Thai were trying to change that) executive branches

At least to me it does, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Democracy here has never existed, everyone in the know on both sides seem to agree on that. I'd rather have a Junta than a demagogic system where right wing fascism is misrepresented as "Democracy". At least there's no pretending.

PTP are right wing fascists?

Wrong and wrong.

If anything PTP are left wing socialists.

I doubt you understand what democracy means, if you did you wouldn't post such nonsense.

Yes, you read it right... Peua Thai are right wing fascists. But then, so is every other group in the Thai political playground to a degree, including those who feel the need to pull out belittling personal comments like you tried to do just then.

I can give hundreds of examples of their right wing fascism, and I suspect that if you took off your Peua Thai football shirt you may be able to too. (And I don't want to waste my time writing out stuff that's been done to death already.)

Actually I understand democracy quite well, at least to the Bachelor of Arts level. In the "Thai" scheme of things, I can be quite concise: an autocracy, democratically elected or otherwise, is not a democracy... do you disagree? Would you disagree that all governments in Thailand's history have been autocratic?

If it weren't for all the coups Thailand would already be a proper, modern functioning democracy. Thailand is undergoing a process of change, its democracy has been far from perfect but is slowly improving (when given the chance). Indonesia started the same journey at the same time as Thailand's latest efforts towards freedom - after the Asian financial crises in the late 90's. The difference between the 2 countries now is that in Indonesia the people have managed to keep the military out of politics, in Thailand the military have not been put back in their box and have conducted 2 successful coups since the financial crises - stunting Thai democracy yet again. The choice Thailand faces is to keep moving forward on the path towards democracy, slowly perfecting the system step by step or return to the undemocratic and unjust past. The hurdle Thailand faces and cannot yet get over is for the losers of an election to accept defeat, to accept the will of the people and take their seats on the opposition benches and try to earn more votes next time around through hard work and policy development. Thailand needs to experience the peaceful transition of power after a succession of elections. Thaksin can only come to power via votes which means Thaksin can be removed from power by votes without destroying the system - not so the military, they come in via guns and destroying the system and cannot be removed by the people without bloodshed.

[than]

If it weren't for all the coups Thailand would already be a proper, modern functioning democracy. Thailand is undergoing a process of change, its democracy has been far from perfect but is slowly improving (when given the chance). Indonesia started the same journey at the same time as Thailand's latest efforts towards freedom - after the Asian financial crises in the late 90's. The difference between the 2 countries now is that in Indonesia the people have managed to keep the military out of politics, in Thailand the military have not been put back in their box and have conducted 2 successful coups since the financial crises - stunting Thai democracy yet again. The choice Thailand faces is to keep moving forward on the path towards democracy, slowly perfecting the system step by step or return to the undemocratic and unjust past. The hurdle Thailand faces and cannot yet get over is for the losers of an election to accept defeat, to accept the will of the people and take their seats on the opposition benches and try to earn more votes next time around through hard work and policy development. Thailand needs to experience the peaceful transition of power after a succession of elections. Thaksin can only come to power via votes which means Thaksin can be removed from power by votes without destroying the system - not so the military, they come in via guns and destroying the system and cannot be removed by the people without bloodshed.

Yes ok, if for you Taksin / PTP /UDD is democratic, Can you help me to understand why they need to use vote buying to stay in power, why they use terrorist method for silent opponent, or topple legal government , why they kill children ? why they try to corrupt judge when they are in trouble ?

[waitforusalso]

[rubl]

Capture.PNG

Tjeez, did he have an argument with his legal representative?

[rubl]

PS you may consider this a reply to your last three replies to my posts.

you don't reply to anything, you just troll.

your so-called reply doesn't address a single question posed. Not one.

I didn't expect you to answer any questions, you never do. You're one of the worst kind of trolls on this forum, Polite pretence, fascist viewpoint. by the way, talk about hypocrites, you have all the freedoms anyone can expect in the world today based on an accident of birthplace but you gladly support a military junta which denies the most basic rights to Thai people - including my family and kids, so please take your 'hypocrite' comment and stuff it.

I'll let heybruce play with you... he's already admitted to having a sense of humor that can support your foolishness.

Running out of arguments again, my dear tbthailand?

BTW you're last sentence suggests some sinister ploy to irritate and annoy a well known Dutch uncle. Interesting the suggestion I'm seeing as a threat.

[Pi Sek]

If it weren't for all the coups Thailand would already be a proper, modern functioning democracy. Thailand is undergoing a process of change, its democracy has been far from perfect but is slowly improving (when given the chance). Indonesia started the same journey at the same time as Thailand's latest efforts towards freedom - after the Asian financial crises in the late 90's. The difference between the 2 countries now is that in Indonesia the people have managed to keep the military out of politics, in Thailand the military have not been put back in their box and have conducted 2 successful coups since the financial crises - stunting Thai democracy yet again. The choice Thailand faces is to keep moving forward on the path towards democracy, slowly perfecting the system step by step or return to the undemocratic and unjust past. The hurdle Thailand faces and cannot yet get over is for the losers of an election to accept defeat, to accept the will of the people and take their seats on the opposition benches and try to earn more votes next time around through hard work and policy development. Thailand needs to experience the peaceful transition of power after a succession of elections. Thaksin can only come to power via votes which means Thaksin can be removed from power by votes without destroying the system - not so the military, they come in via guns and destroying the system and cannot be removed by the people without bloodshed.

Thanks for the intelligent post, at least until the beligerent bit attempting ridicule (fascist trait, by the way) at the end. Didn't answer my questions directly, but it did confirm that you don't actually know what a democracy is, because a "proper, modern functioning democracy" as you put it is not a democracy. The closest thing we have to democracy in the world is Switzerland, which is officially a police state.

USA hasn't had any coups for a while, and it is absolutely not democratic; same with the UK - it's for this reason we see people like Russell Brand, with no solutions, represent the will of the people more than the government. I suppose you'd like the world to go down that avenue?

I reckon the current Junta is more democratic than any government we have seen since 2001 - that means TRT, the 2006-7 Junta, PPP, the Democrats and PTP, because they are demonstrating less autocratic traits than any of the above. It seems to me you are actually anti-democracy, because you are pro-autocracy. If that's not the case, I'd love to hear your thoughts... but I very much doubt we will agree.

I probably don't understand, because I must be part of the "elite" if I can afford $120k toilet paper. Luckily for me, this toilet paper was funded by the state. Also luckily for me, I have two other expensive pieces of toilet paper, although they're not the arty versions. I suppose you have scientific toilet paper?

[Warpath]

If it weren't for all the coups Thailand would already be a proper, modern functioning democracy. Thailand is undergoing a process of change, its democracy has been far from perfect but is slowly improving (when given the chance). Indonesia started the same journey at the same time as Thailand's latest efforts towards freedom - after the Asian financial crises in the late 90's. The difference between the 2 countries now is that in Indonesia the people have managed to keep the military out of politics, in Thailand the military have not been put back in their box and have conducted 2 successful coups since the financial crises - stunting Thai democracy yet again. The choice Thailand faces is to keep moving forward on the path towards democracy, slowly perfecting the system step by step or return to the undemocratic and unjust past. The hurdle Thailand faces and cannot yet get over is for the losers of an election to accept defeat, to accept the will of the people and take their seats on the opposition benches and try to earn more votes next time around through hard work and policy development. Thailand needs to experience the peaceful transition of power after a succession of elections. Thaksin can only come to power via votes which means Thaksin can be removed from power by votes without destroying the system - not so the military, they come in via guns and destroying the system and cannot be removed by the people without bloodshed.

Thanks for the intelligent post, at least until the beligerent bit attempting ridicule (fascist trait, by the way) at the end. Didn't answer my questions directly, but it did confirm that you don't actually know what a democracy is, because a "proper, modern functioning democracy" as you put it is not a democracy. The closest thing we have to democracy in the world is Switzerland, which is officially a police state.

USA hasn't had any coups for a while, and it is absolutely not democratic; same with the UK - it's for this reason we see people like Russell Brand, with no solutions, represent the will of the people more than the government. I suppose you'd like the world to go down that avenue?

I reckon the current Junta is more democratic than any government we have seen since 2001 - that means TRT, the 2006-7 Junta, PPP, the Democrats and PTP, because they are demonstrating less autocratic traits than any of the above. It seems to me you are actually anti-democracy, because you are pro-autocracy. If that's not the case, I'd love to hear your thoughts... but I very much doubt we will agree.

I probably don't understand, because I must be part of the "elite" if I can afford $120k toilet paper. Luckily for me, this toilet paper was funded by the state. Also luckily for me, I have two other expensive pieces of toilet paper, although they're not the arty versions. I suppose you have scientific toilet paper?

Semantics.

The people held a larger share of sovereignty under all Thaksinite administrations than they ever have under any past or present Junta. Right now the Junta has 100% of sovereignty of this nation and the people a big fat 0% - it is so bad the people can't even talk in public without the threat of punitive martial law measures.

The fact is Thaksin can only gain power by winning elections and Thaksin can be thrown out of power by losing elections - this situation is a hell of a lot further down the road to democracy than what we have here now.

The Juntas democracy score is 0 out of 10, the Juntas autocracy score is 10 out of 10.

[djjamie]

However, he insisted that all four suspects were in good mental condition.

Are there any UDD supporter that cheer the deaths of innocent people not in good mental health? NO.. Anyone that cheers the deaths of innocent people are not a representation of the majority,

Majorities do not support terrorism.

I remember a young lady that suggested torture on the hands of the Junta yet was not able to suggest it until after 4 weeks. Coincidentally after all her wounds healed while she was in England she then accused the Junta.

​I might suggest the PTP assaulted me and then move overseas for 8 weeks until my wounds heal!!!

I aaume I will be believe as well right?

[Warpath]

However, he insisted that all four suspects were in good mental condition.

Are there any UDD supporter that cheer the deaths of innocent people not in good mental health? NO.. Anyone that cheers the deaths of innocent people are not a representation of the majority,

Majorities do not support terrorism.

I remember a young lady that suggested torture on the hands of the Junta yet was not able to suggest it until after 4 weeks. Coincidentally after all her wounds healed while she was in England she then accused the Junta.

​I might suggest the PTP assaulted me and then move overseas for 8 weeks until my wounds heal!!!

I aaume I will be believe as well right?

It is dishonest to tar all Red shirts with one brush.

The Red shirts are a polyglot group, young and old, from impoverished farmers to academic intelligentsia, all committed to the peaceful restoration of constitutional democracy. The vast majority of Red Shirts are vocally opposed to the few extremists on the fringe who have resorted to arms, thus distorting the public image and spirit of their movement.

The voting majority supports PTP, they do not support unelected military Junta's.

​Why would the young lady wait until she was far away and safe to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of the military?

One word - extrajudicial, look it up.

[waitforusalso]

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Tjeez, did he have an argument with his legal representative?

Non-sensible deflecting BS as usual.

[Fat Haggis]

Majorities do not support terrorism.

I'm so glad we've finally got that out, you see Jamie, the majority of the red shirts don't support terrorism either, you have a MINORITY who do so.

You really don't have much of an idea about terrorism and those who fund and support it, and how they come from ALL walks of life.

In Northern Ireland the majority of Republicans (Catholics) supported the efforts of the PIRA, but were not too keen on the splinter group, the INLA who just lacked ethics or a defined cause, all Republicans supported the "Cause", and did all they could against the "crown" and the loyalists (Protestants), who wanted to retain the Union, and again many supported the likes of the UDA, and the UDF, both violent Loyalist Paramilitary outfits, which is just a fancy name for "Terrorist"

Then you have the factions and public in the likes of the Middle East in this instance I will use Iraq, where the Ba'athists(Sunnis-Minority) strongly supported the Insurgency against the Coalition and also supported the Iraqi Military oppression of the Kurds(minority) and the Shia's(majority) both pre and post 91, then after 2003, the minority were overthrown by the Invaders and the Shia eventually took over.

The Shia and the Sunni and the Kurds, basically the Majority of the entire population supported the Insurgents in the North and West, the Kurdish PKK in the North East, and the Shia Militias in the forms of the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigades, all of these groups participated in at times horrific acts of terrorism, so you see Jamie, majorities can, and often do support terrorists and terrorism, depending on which way you look at it, and also depending on their circumstances.

Its semantics and a play on words, and you use these ever so often,

I don't believe that the average Thai red shirt voters really takes any interest in much of what happens outside of their own Ban's, let alone the Muangs and Amphurs. I have found that all these little villages especially in my area are very secular, and are little communities that do what they can to take care of each other. They don't care really what happens outside of their circle, as it has no effect on them, some farangs would call that ignorance, I don't, it's the way its been for generations, that's the way it was before the Farangs arrived and try their best to change their outlook on life.

I liken the Farang opinions to that of your golfing buddies when you're having a really bad round, and slice and shank your way around 18 holes, and a good walk spoiled, when they offer you advice, it gets irritating after a while, and although they mean well, they're doing more harm, and undermining your own abilities, after all, you're not a 18 handicapper because you don't have a clue!!

Some farangs have good intentions and will persevere and stay the course, and want to see the end result, others just want a quick fix, and have no long term strategies, and lose their cool when their advice goes unheeded.

[whybother]

Sure, Thaksin did not remain pure - this would be impossible when he was forced to operate in the swamp that is the system built by generations of corrupt Generals, however, it is abundantly clear that he was far less corrupt than those that preceded him and those unelected usurpers who followed him. The military has always had a monopoly on Thai corruption, Thaksin ended the monopoly for a period thus the coups.

Pro Junta = pro corruption is an undisputable fact.

"Thaksin did not remain pure"

You've got to be taking the piss with that comment.

[halloween]

the article stated in the other thread,

According to Paiboon, over 400 Yellowshirts and nearly 1,000 Redshirts have faced legal action of some sort for their role in protests.

which combined is double the number you mentioned. That number doesn't even touch on other issues like prisoners under or facing LM charges.

And I doubt that he's going to call you up and explain where the numbers come from, but you, on the other hand, might try to find other sources rather than to just insinuate that the numbers are bogus...

But even your number of 700 which dramatically mis-represents what was actually said would still qualify as "hundreds" of political prisoners : a fact which you managed to claim was untrue... even though you never thought it necessary to back up your statement in any way, shape, or form...

Are you really so obtuse as to not understand that facing criminal prosecution is quite different to "political prisoners"? Even if their criminal actions were politically motivated, that doesn't make them political prisoners. How many of them are actually in custody (the prisoners bit)?

[Warpath]

Sure, Thaksin did not remain pure - this would be impossible when he was forced to operate in the swamp that is the system built by generations of corrupt Generals, however, it is abundantly clear that he was far less corrupt than those that preceded him and those unelected usurpers who followed him. The military has always had a monopoly on Thai corruption, Thaksin ended the monopoly for a period thus the coups.

Pro Junta = pro corruption is an undisputable fact.

"Thaksin did not remain pure"

You've got to be taking the piss with that comment.

Of course its a piss take, it's an an exaggeration in the opposite direction taken by those so enamoured with the Yellow faction.

Truth is Thaksin is neither saint nor demon.

The thing is even though Thaksin is not a saint, the Red Shirt movement is still justified and righteous.

The same cannot be said for the Yellow side of the equation.

Take away the demonisation of Thaksin and the Yellow have no basis, absolutely zero justifiable reasons for the turmoil, death and misery they have thrust upon Thailand.

The Yellows are a movement built upon a false premise to achieve an ulterior motive - the destruction of democracy.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Warpath

[rubl]

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Tjeez, did he have an argument with his legal representative?

Non-sensible deflecting BS as usual.

You just posted a picture, you forgot to tell people what to think.