Phuket Land Transfers Drop Dramatically

[animatic]

As I understand it.

There is only one real Bandido on Samui.

And quietly so, but also very well heeled.

1 wanna be hanger on, who really looked the part,

and

1 guy who sold them a building on land,

but has a paperwork trial,

and was assumed to be a Bandido.

This last is free and not being charged, he was a mistake,

but they want him under some presure to cooperate.

The wanna be is the perfect posterboy for this land powerplay.

Too high profile and obvious to be real...

The other guy is likely a higher up Bandido,

and the focus of the Danish authorities.

Effectively this has been a Thai land powerplay orchestrated from

Bangkok, and allegedly likely involving high up Thais ( people around the cabinet).

There is too much money to be made here,

and we know who likes to make LOTS of money.

So lets set up some Farangs, cause 1 is clearly dirty.

This is ALL now more complicated because the Kularb Keaw

nominee investigation, is very similar to the classic

land company purchase deal.

If they can oppose Shin Corps nominees,

then other nominee structures are also suspect.

And lets investigate all incoming cash,

cause then we might get a cut...

Then again the days of loading 50k quid in a suitcase

and going through Gatwick are history...

But it is cutting off the nose to save the tail. Classic Thai it seems.

It is killing the realestate market they wanted to jump on,

by changing the rules in their favor,

but losing all the market to sell too.

DUH!

In 6 moths to 1 year it will likely change back to status quo,

because someone rich will see himself losing his investment.

Or a changing of the guard will change the modality.

But the return of investers will be MUCH slower.

Same same.

Edited August 31, 2006 by animatic

[h5kaf]

I do not understand why everyone is trying to circumvent the law. It is plain and simple. If you are a foreigner YOU MAY NOT OWN LAND. However the deal is wrapped up company wise the fact remains that there is considerable risk if company structures have been altered to favour a foreign owner. The only truly legal way for a foreigner to have secure use of the land (effectively the same as ownership) is by leasehold. There are developers in Phuket and elsewhere who are selling properties very successfully by gentl;y educating the prospective buyers of certain long term leasehold arrangements which are legal.

Land sales in Phuket and elsewhere will remain low whilst dodgy estate agents and others who are trying to fool the buyers, continue to advocate twisted illegal plots to cicumvent the law. Once the general public know the score definitively and have had time to think things over then I am sure the properety market will boom again.

There are many areas in Europe where the only way to own is to buy leasehold, and this does not prove a problem. Nor should it here when the government can be trusted not to change the goalposts.

[racefan]

I am an English lawyer working for a Thai lawfirm primarily dealing with farangs wanting to purchase property in Thailand. I have worked in Samui and currently in Pattaya for the same firm for just over a year.

The current situation as regards land transfers is as confusing to me as to anybody as the situation is still evolving in relation to the directives issued by the Ministry of Interior. and what seems acceptable to the land office and Department of Business Development (Company's Registry) one week can change the next.

When I first arrived here the "acceptable" way for foreigners to transfer land was with a 49% shareholding in a Thai majority shareholder company with the foreigner's shares being preferential shares with a voting power of 10 votes per share and the Thai's shares being ordinary shares with a voting power of 1 per share. The Thai shareholders were members of staff and consequently nominees.

Possibly because of the Prime Minister's involvement with the Shin Corp Company and the use of nominee shareholders, it seems that the government are intent on stamping out the use of nominee shareholders, hence the first directive that was sent to the land offices in May.

The first reaction to that directive was to transfer the land to a pure Thai company, again using Thai staff as nominees, and as soon as the land was transferred, re-structure thecompany to bring in the foreign director/shareholder.

This was acceptable for a while until the August directive to the DBD made it clear that any company with a proposed foreign director/shareholder would be required to provide evidence of the Thai shareholders income and personal investment into the company.

The current "acceptable" method, according to the DBD, and this has only been related to me by Thai staff who deal with company registrations, is to form a 100% Thai company as before, transfer the land, and then re-structure the company but with the foreigner only having 35% of the shares.

The foreigner still retains control of the company by virtue of voting power. (350 votes against 65) although in practice there would never be 'real' meeting of the company.

The dilemma is how long this will remain the acceptable method, and how intent are the government in preventing foreigners owning land through the company method.

There has been significant downturn in the property market in Pattaya, although there are still foreigners buying land using this method. Whether it is safe remains to be seen.

There definitely seems to be a 'wait until after the election' attitude, but my own view is that foreigners may have to accept that if they want to own land, it will have to be on the 30yr lease basis, which is not without drawbacks as there is no law in place that requires a freeholder to renew the lease after 30 years, and more significantly, a lease dies whith the lessee and therefore the land cannot easily be inherited.

It seems that condos are getting more and more popular here!!

uote name='smilingjim' date='2006-08-31 07:44:00' post='873075']

Is the purchase of land by farang in LOS now non-existant?

Was it ever?

LaoPo

Well, with regard to any legal ways around the law that leave you in control and protected.

I don't think so...but maybe there's someone* who has 'any legal ways around the law'....? not me!

* that someone could become rich...very rich indeed

LaoPo

[yoshiwara]

...currently there is a bottom line and that is whatever legal wheeze is used to purchase a property with land will likely bounce back and bite you on resale...which is exactly the situation right now...by all means speculate on Thaksin or A.N.Other changing the law to unlimited falang ownership next year but where is the evidence to suggest that this might happen?

[terry57]

I have no interest in Phuket, but do you know what I would really like? A thread about whats happening with sales, prices. sales, Co. routes, lease etc without the involvement of those with a vested interest on this forum getting involved and selling their slant, fitted to their own needs.

However, I realise that is impossible.

Thats why my money is staying out of LOS until this whole process comes to its natural conclusion and everyone knows where they stand.

very intelligent move my friend, as my good self am of the same opinion.

i will be leaving all my assets in aussie and renting only.

you can rent a very nice place anywhere in los for a <deleted> less than you can at home, plus this gives you the added freedom to move quickly if you wish.

keep it all simple and just live like elvis presley.

before he frigging died that was.

cheers friends

[catwho]

Is the purchase of land by farang in LOS now non-existant?

Was it ever?

LaoPo

Well, with regard to any legal ways around the law that leave you in control and protected.

I don't think so...but maybe there's someone* who has 'any legal ways around the law'....? not me!

* that someone could become rich...very rich indeed

LaoPo

at the expats meet last week , pattaya...the thai laywer said if u put the compant in a thai lawyers or nominees name they will not check as its 100 percent thai.then change over later,but as he said the black hole is can u trust them.

he also said if the house and land are in your wifes name and she dies first ....you the farang can and do have claim to hpuse and land....thai LAW.he said no one has contested this yet,and he wants to do it...he is from pattaya ..sorry for the miss spells my backspace has just gone 5 5

[KRNN]

at the expats meet last week , pattaya...the thai laywer said if u put the compant in a thai lawyers or nominees name they will not check as its 100 percent thai.then change over later,but as he said the black hole is can u trust them.

he also said if the house and land are in your wifes name and she dies first ....you the farang can and do have claim to hpuse and land....thai LAW.he said no one has contested this yet,and he wants to do it...he is from pattaya ..sorry for the miss spells my backspace has just gone 5 5

Some lawyers here said that can be done.

But when I asked Land Department official about this he guaranteed that Land Department and DBD will check shareholders' list every June of every year. And they will know when you change names.

But I am incline to the lawyers side. I mean who would do all the work to check every company's sharesholders' list?

It's gonna be a lot of work there. And as you all well aware, Thai Government officers never work.

[homehunter]

There is another way of owning property in Thailand but it requires the developer to set the scheme up or it becomes rather expensive. If your property value is high enough it would still be worth while.

It involves the setting up of a lease and also retaining a share in the land holding company. Anybody that would like to know the full details can e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send an explanation sheet.

[Martin]

I am always amazed at all this interest in owning land and money.

Am I out of date?

As a boy, my dour Yorkshire relatives told me: "There'll be no pockets in your shroud."

Has that changed?

[Chua]

Land transfers drop dramatically

PHUKET: -- Phuket Provincial Land Office (PPLO) has reported a significant drop in land transfers since the announcement on 27 June that companies with foreign shareholdings seeking to transfer land will be thoroughly investigated. According to PPLO chief, Supot Suwannachote, land transfers applied and approved by PPLO over recent months are: 20 companies in March; 17 companies in April; 24 companies in May; 17 companies in June; and just five companies in July – of which all five have 100% Thai shareholders.

K Supot explained that investigations had been stepped up since the the well-publicised Bandidos case in Samui. According to press reports, the Bandidos were a gang whose three members were charged in July with extortion, money laundering and six counts of illegal sale of public land. A police spokesman was quoted in a Thai newspaper as claiming the suspects brought more than 79 million baht into Thailand over the past two years and laundered it through various tourist-related businesses. A six-month investigation by police found that the Bandidos had a network that extended to Bangkok, Pattaya, Samui and Phuket.

The PPLO issued an official letter dated 27 June to inform local companies with foreign shareholders of its stricter adherence to existing land law. “We are checking for any suspicious cases in which companies have increased their capital shares or are changing managing committees to hold company shares for foreigners,” explained K Supot, “and are conducting business concerning properties in Thailand, such as buying, leasing, operating a hotel or building a resort.”

-- Phuket Post 2006-08-30

Absolute number figures on land transfer titles, even relative to the previous month are almost meaningless unless you also consider the # of farrang in Thailand for any given month. Remember July is pretty much low season due to heavy rains in Phuket this time of year, so of course there's going to be less business involving farrangs. It happens EVERY year. Show the stats as a relative percentage of a running average for the same month during the prior 5 years and then you can talk about trends.

The land office on Samui had been closed for a few weeks while the DSI boys went through, but's its been open again now for over two weeks. They claimed they were checking every title issued here in the last five years. BS. They left after several weeks with no new arrests, no new pronouncements, not even any new "claims" other than that they were going to "expand" their search. The "checking" of company changes is load of hooey. People are doing transfers there again now just like before. Ie, they came up empty handed, so now they have to justify their jobs by hunting elsewhere. The government & media claims had been wildly exaggerated all along in a conspiracy with the Thai media to justify the DSI's own existence and simultaneously scare away farrang buyers. So far, despite all the hubbub, land deals there are now continuing again, and the situation has already returned to normal. But it's still only mid season now, dropping down again as the cool, wet season hits Samui in November, so there's not usually a lot of activity this time of year.

Other than the "Peak" project, whose land titles were cleared within days, the only other published report is about supposed encroachment onto forest preserve land, which represents less than 1/10th of the land area of Samui. All media hype is STILL portraying the issue of Bandidos drugs, money-laundering, and their land grabs as if it were a pandemic, pervasive Thailand-wide problem, when, in fact, it isn't.

The supposed "encroachment" into forest areas is a very limited, unrelated problem. The problem is that the Thai government never officially designated more area of Samui as "protected forest" -- the only area they have is just not as big as many thought (hoped). It's only been mandated as a relatively small, isolated area, in the interior of the island, closest to the native port city of Nathon. The problem these DSI guys are finding though (I have it from an inside source) is that all their new investigations are showing ties back to TRT politicians who are still in power. They've made sure the process was smooth as silk. Even the Bangkok Post quoted a senior official who said essentially, even if we find what appears to be a 'dodgy' title, there's virtually no way to prove it is fake. This is because if land office officials in Bangkok & Samui & Surrathani all signed off on a title, and all the records are in the files, it's absolutely no different from any other 'real' land title.

I've not read or even heard of any new arrests, no new charges, and no other land owners affected. And in all of the press frenzy, only ONE Thai land official was named, and all that happened to him was a transfer. If there is so much illgeal land & enchroachments, this has to be done with the complicity of local, regional, and national Thai government officials. So where are those arrests? It'll never happen, because other than the "Bandidos" case, which is a wholly different matter, there is no proof of any crimes.

It's all been a bunch of media hype designed to scare farrangs away from buying up the land, so that the local Thais can get in on the deals while the prices are still affordable. Remember, before the bandidos thing came out, the "Peak" 'scandal' only started because of complaints by local Samui residents who didn't like the fact that some of their local Thai friends were getting rich selling their land to 49% foreign controlled companies who were then building ugly white, flat roofed buildings on *their* island. The Thais are very nationalistic (read: racist) and only want Farrang money, not farrang controlled land, and certainly not farrang houses. Can't blame them; those houses are ugly! But that's what this is really all about. But money talks louder than a bunch of whining Thais, so now that they've changed the zoning laws to restrict buildings to Thai style roofs & colors, and shuffled a few heads around at the land office, they have to keep up the articles in the press in order to keep their constuents happy until the election. But in the mean time, the REALITY IS: things on Samui are back to business as usual. After all, high season is coming in just a few months, and the land office officials & real estate moguls here wouldn't dare miss it.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Chua

[KRNN]

Absolute number figures on land transfer titles, even relative to the previous month are almost meaningless unless you also consider the # of farrang in Thailand for any given month. Remember July is pretty much low season due to heavy rains in Phuket this time of year, so of course there's going to be less business involving farrangs. It happens EVERY year. Show the stats as a relative percentage of a running average for the same month during the prior 5 years and then you can talk about trends.

That might sounds about right.

But wrong.

You show that, go on. Find that stats and put it up.

I'm telling you now that it's not slowing down.

Even if it is, it's not because it's low season.

But because they don't let Farangs do it.

I've been living here and working in this business, not very long, but I dare say even in low season business in Phuket was hot.

Unlike tourism business, even after Tsunami, properties business was not slowing down.

Even in low season.

Home buyers don't really care about low season here.

Some of them even think that low season could get them good bargain.

That's what they told me though.

Many developers set up scheme like homehunter said above, many promoting leasehold, some freehold.

Those that promote freehold scheme is quite struggling now. Because it used to be days that Farangs can set up a company and buy land at will.

But these days, I guarantee that you can't even register your purchase at Land Department Office anymore.

They won't do that for you.

You may wonder why. It's like those above said, it's the directives. But I say that directives are not very clear. There is not single paragraph in there telling Land Department what to do. Only tell them that if that company has Farang director and Farang shareholders, that company's Thai shareholders must be interogate (I think that word is more accurate than interview as used in the directives)

So, when Land Department are not really sure what to do, they do it the Thai way.

They stop everything.

They're very, very afraid to do things wrong and got bit back by what he did wrong.

I've been asking them everyday about this, about what they were gonna do with Farang company.

The only answer I got is, they don't do it at all. They don't take your register at all.

I don't know about Pattaya, Samui or Hua Hin. Because last time I talk to a friend in Pattaya he said there's no problem.

But here in Phuket I dare say registration of land purchase by farang-owned company is Zero.

Edited August 31, 2006 by KRNN

[pgrin]

The use of nominee shareholders is now and has always been illegal in Thailand. The people on this forum who claim to be lawyers and who advocate to a paying client the”Thai Majority Shareholder” route for farang to buy property are advising these clients to commit a crime. In most countries a lawyer would be disbarred for this practice. The fact that the law has not been enforced is not an excuse. A Thai national who allows his or her name to be used in this fashion are subject to large fines and significant jail time. Do you think these same lawyers tell Noi the secretary or Somchai the driver about this liability when they make yet another copy of their ID card and have them sign another document? This is Thailand and it is their sovereign right to restrict foreign ownership. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.

P

[Martin]

In post #41, KRNN said:

"So, when Land Department are not really sure what to do, they do it the Thai way.

They stop everything.

They're very, very afraid to do things wrong and got bit back by what he did wrong."

That is to be expected in any new form of enterprise in any society.

Read Niels Mulder's book: "Thai Images: the culture of the Public World".

Here is a piece from a review of it:

"In Mulder's review of school texts, newspapers, popular fiction and the Thai government publication 'Thailand in the 90s', we are engaged in some of the deepest issues not only of contemporary Thai culture, but also of the field of Asian studies itself. He finds the elementary school textbooks hopelessly moralistic and repetitive. The secondary level texts do aspire to a conceptual grasp of Thai society but are simply inadequate and inconsistent, lapsing into moralism and quoting outdated American texts for legitimation. .....

....

....

.....The Thai middle class follows the farang (westerners), Mulder argues (p. 175), because as a historically unique social group, they really have no viable Thai models to follow."

So, when it comes to registering land for farang holiday houses, this is a new thing for which there is not yet the 'viable Thai model to follow', and it will have to wait till there is.

It is the sort of thing that needs Oriental patience, and in which Western impatience is counterproductive.

There was a saying among schoolteachers:"To teach Latin to Johnny, you have to be able to teach, to know Latin, and to understand Johnny."

Likewise to sell land in to farang-buyers in Thailand, you will have to find land to sell, attract farang-buyers, and understand Thais.

I used to have to deal with the western impatience of some western-centric holidaymakers and would tell them: "If you wanted everything to happen like clockwork, you should have booked a holiday in Switzerland".

At least there is a Land Registry with the appropriate hardware and software in Thailand, even if it does occasionally have to come to a halt whilst the legislature, and those who implement it, in Bangkok develop more orgware.

For the first four times that I bought a house, in England, there was no Land Registry and it took weeks to check back that the deeds proferred were watertight.

Orgware always does take longer to develop, but Thailand is coming on quite well overall.

England was in the position that the orgware ('viable models to follow') had been developed over generations of capitalised-industrialised organisation, so it only had to buy hardware, and have software developed, to get its Land Registry going.

The Thais can be expected to take a few more years, (probably till the present crop coming through the universities have 'bedded in' to positions in government law making and service), to get orgware developed to handle all the aspects of non-Thai nationals wanting to reside here. Or methods of keeping them out.

[LaoPo]

I am an English lawyer working for a Thai lawfirm primarily dealing with farangs wanting to purchase property in Thailand.............

..........There definitely seems to be a 'wait until after the election' attitude, but my own view is that foreigners may have to accept that if they want to own land, it will have to be on the 30yr lease basis, which is not without drawbacks as there is no law in place that requires a freeholder to renew the lease after 30 years, and more significantly, a lease dies whith the lessee and therefore the land cannot easily be inherited.It seems that condos are getting more and more popular here!!

I think you said it all, Racefan!

LaoPo

Edited August 31, 2006 by LaoPo

[Steph1012]

ON THREAD! A quick look in the Phuket Gazette Property Section (no news these days but that's a different thread) the online version and all the "Estate Agents" windows, shows a growing mass of unsold property.

On my Estate over 75% of the land is empty and up for sale. Massive areas are have been cleared of trees but no work taking place. Its crashed!! The locals are farming bananas and chickens on it which is great by me.

How are we who have already purchased affected? Not at all, its the same house it was 8 years ago when we (in my wifes name) bought it, we still live in it and as we bought it for life it can loose 99% of its value and we are still not concerned. If she kicked me out tomorrow I could take the financial hit and she would still have got much less out of me than my Ozzy missus got.

Tough titty on all the loud talking farang "developers" and "estate agents" who are losing out. They are and were always the problem anyway.

If you are sure of your wife, and committed to living here for life, buy the thing in her name. If we (farangs) are ever allowed to own land, it will be priced out of our range and taken over by speculators.

If you want to make big quick bucks.... Your time is up and you can no longer talk the market up. So please lets have less of your bullshit loud telephone conversations in restaurants whilst we are eating. You would never seek to move in on other less lucrative Thai reserved occupations like bus driving, would you!

To VTR1000 Thais could have afforded this land at anytime, it was mostly jungle and plantation until 15 years ago. They are only interested in it now because it's seen as trendy and a good investment. Phuket would not be full of Thais living in upmarket houses if these loopholes didn't exist. It would be full of trees and most of the Thais who you see in phuket would be back in Isarn working for nothing or next to nothing. We do all (falang & thai) seem to be making better lives these days... Apart from the growing band of whinging expats who seem to have cropped up this past few years.

This is paradise and you should treat it as such. Life isn't better anywhere else in the world.. Remember?

[baboon]

Funny thing is, a mate of mine bought a house in Bangkok using the company route. He is convinced he owns the property and land 100% and that he has cheated the stupid Thais through a loophhole in the law that the Government DOES NOT KNOW IS THERE!!!!!!!

[fxm88]

Where I used to live in London, the local area got literally taken over by Japanese and Middle Eastern landlords. What happened ... ? As prices soared, property prices and rents went through the roof and the locals (their kids especially), those who had lived in the area all their lives couldn't afford to live there anymore and were forced to move on to less desirable areas. The same is happening here for sure. Big foreign bucks are moving in ... land prices to a certain extent go up pricing poor Somchai and his family out ... not good! Just MHO.

The same exact thing happened in America! The Japanese came in and bought all the real estate. Prices kept going higher and higher and local folks just couldn't afford to live there. The worst was when they bought Rockefeller Center, a true American icon! People were going crazy, the government was talking about passing all kinds of anti-Japanese legislation, everyone was afraid the Japanese were going to take over America. Then the market tanked and the Japanese were held holding all this terribly overpriced real estate. They couldn't take it back to Japan and wound up selling a lot of it at a loss. Then some Americans went to Japan and started buying up their real-estate.

[LaoPo]

Where I used to live in London, the local area got literally taken over by Japanese and Middle Eastern landlords. What happened ... ? As prices soared, property prices and rents went through the roof and the locals (their kids especially), those who had lived in the area all their lives couldn't afford to live there anymore and were forced to move on to less desirable areas. The same is happening here for sure. Big foreign bucks are moving in ... land prices to a certain extent go up pricing poor Somchai and his family out ... not good! Just MHO.

The same exact thing happened in America! The Japanese came in and bought all the real estate. Prices kept going higher and higher and local folks just couldn't afford to live there. The worst was when they bought Rockefeller Center, a true American icon! People were going crazy, the government was talking about passing all kinds of anti-Japanese legislation, everyone was afraid the Japanese were going to take over America. Then the market tanked and the Japanese were held holding all this terribly overpriced real estate. They couldn't take it back to Japan and wound up selling a lot of it at a loss. Then some Americans went to Japan and started buying up their real-estate.

In other words, like Napoleon already said:

l' Histoire se Repete -History repeats itself- ALWAYS.

Protectionism (of a country, business, economics) will never work, in the end.

People who say" Thailand for the Thai" - USA for the US-citizens - Spain for the Spanish, etc. etc. are not of this world....and unrealistic.

We can't live or exist anymore without each other, whether it be people, countries, economics, businesswise and so forth...

LaoPo

[Felt 35]

If the trains, busses and trucks are leaving the island FULL of workers without a job...maybe....

.....Phuket could be a Paradise again....

[LaoPo]

.....Phuket could be a Paradise again....

Phuket will NEVER be the paradise again as I found it some 30 years ago

LaoPo

[epicstuff]

can anyone tell me if if there is any way of using a son or daughters name .

I am not married but have a son with Thai nationality (infact dual). can I be an executor and have land in his name?

[number6]

Sorry cant understand why everyone is trying to do this – unless your all pyramid people – ok its all hyped and u take a pot and next poor punter pays u over odds and like everything bubble busts or whatever. Ive been a property invester for over 30 years and done very well out of it but im sure I have title I look at risks and decide. You buy here you cant legally own – sorry ill whisper you cant legally own got it

You make nearly as much in Europe USA aus or wherever and can own legally and its yours no hazzle no problems its yours totally legally

I invest here in property and stocks because I think whatever Thialand has a great future. Its very like Spain 30+ years ago and yes I made money on that but all legal no silly loopholes

And ive said it before if you don’t trust you thai wife don’t marry for xxxx sake – im whispering ok not shouting. So I take a risk on property market here not on hyped fanarg nonsense. I will continue to buy houses in my wifes name and condos in mine not that that matters its just so its 50/50. And keep totally legal and as ive said many times if my thai wife dumps me then im happy for her to have lot anyway.

Said it before ill say it again if u want play silly game but don’t complain when you get stung u will believe me

Whisper don’t know if u know but law here says forangs cant own land legally – noone told u ????

[Charma]

You buy here you cant legally own – sorry ill whisper you cant legally own got it

You can, you have just got to find genuine Thia shareholders for your company. Of course, that is no easy task!

[rishi]

Which genuine investor would invest even 1 baht in a company whose sole purpose is to own land that isn't used for anything but someone else residency?

[womble]

Which genuine investor would invest even 1 baht in a company whose sole purpose is to own land that isn't used for anything but someone else residency?

Or for someone else to speculate on. To have real investors they have to invest the money.

So if you gave all the investors equal share of the money and they paid that money into the business account you have to show where the maney comes from.

I really can't see them having the man power to scrutinse each and every property transaction so if you gave the shareholders the cash and they then pay the money into the account their account and transfer it, you would have slips to show the money came from them, I very much doubt they would be able to check where they got the money from, it's just too much work.

I'm pretty sure that if you have a few bits of paper and it looks official all will be ok even if the pay in slips are over the counter without names on. In Thailand it matters more that you appear to be following the law, if you appear to you can usual bend the rules.

As I say, I really don't see them having the manpower for this, maybe on large transactions, or ones where funds are suspect or criminal. Or if you piss the wrong person off!

[Khun Jean]

On the other hand, it can also be assumed that investing in the directors land and house is never ever going to make a profit and therefore very likely to be nominees. No voting rights, no dividens, no profit. After a few years it will be suspicious. Mabe after 10 years when you are nicely settled and comfertable. And then the dreaded knock on the door.

With these law bending practices you have to move fast. Buy, sell, buy sell. Still not right, but that is what i see people dong the most, and they are getting away with it.

And making a good profit.

But for living in the house for the long term, the odds are not good.

[veteran]

TIT:

[Khun Jean]

This is a quote from a news item about the Shin deal.

"It is very obvious that Kularb Kaew is a nominee and different from other foreign firms. No one who invests billions and takes 51 per cent of the company will accept taking only 3 per cent of the firm's income."

That can easily be used for a foreign controlled company that buys land and house. it would just read:

No one who invests millions and takes 51 per cent of the company will accept taking only 3 per cent of the firm's income.

Or even less than 3 per cent as is it is in most, if not all, cases where a company is used for the purpose of owning land.

[Beachedwhale]

can anyone tell me if if there is any way of using a son or daughters name .

I am not married but have a son with Thai nationality (infact dual). can I be an executor and have land in his name?

My understanding is that thai children can have land in their name and also own shares in a company. Just like most other countries, there are certain restrictions until they are legal age (18yrs I believe) but in essence it is totally legal. I am not totally sure about owning land outright, but, I understand that until they are 18 yrs, their shares in a company cannot be sold without going through a court process. All of the assets in the company can be sold off as long as the proper signing authorities have been followed - i.e. you can make yourself the sole or duel signatory. If the purpose is to own a family home that eventually goes to the children then this is a suitable way to do it. If you want to use it to speculate in property then it is probably appropriate only if you are prepared to declare every transaction through the company (just like you are supposed to do in Thailand and just like you would probably do at home but which has not been happening here in Samui recently which is why the Government is now trying to tighten up things).

There may also be other implications for your son when he turns 18. If he is Thai and turns 18 then he must go in the "ballot" for army service, he may also need to give up his other passport (Legally this might be the case but my Lawyer stated that in 40 years of legal practice he has never seen anyone prosecuted for not doing so). So if you are putting things in your sons name then you are potentially forcing his hand into remaining a Thai national / passport holder ... or if decides to relinquish it then you are back to square one in trying to find an appropriate Thai partner.

I personally made the decision to have both my thai/farang daughter and my thai/farang son as my major shareholders with my daughter having the larger share at this stage in case my son does decide to take up his farang passport in order to get out of army ... but that is another grey area which needs futher investigation and is still over 10 years away (for my son) so may change and therefore we are trying to retain flexibility in the face of all of these changing rules etc.

[Martin]

I think that 'Khun Jean' is ominously right, when he says in post#56:

"But for living in the house for the long term, the odds are not good."

Ever-rising oil prices will cause a lot of the Western baby-boomers to want to come here in retirement, and Thailand will be able to pick and choose.

In fact, it could be that the Thais start to demand that their government picks and chooses.

If winning the next General Election could be assured by responding to that demand, I would expect a Prime Minister to put a squad on to looking at all these land titles and deporting and blacklisting those who had taken part, either as sellers or buyers, in past illegal action.

This isn't a country where anybody can seek asylum and drag out the legal processes of appeal.

Because it has the same hardware and software, it is easy to imagine that they are backed up by the same orgware as in those Western countries. Not so.